Alpha: [Cosmic Fire, page 541]
“As this threefold enlightenment or unfoldment proceeds again a dual result is seen:
The astral permanent atom comes into full activity and radiance, as regards five of its spirillae, and the two atoms of the physical and astral planes are equally vibrant.
The three petals of the central ring of the egoic lotus come also into full unfoldment, and the heart centre of the Monad is seen as a wheel of fire with six of its spokes in full display of energy and rapidly rotating.”
Delta: This means the central ring unfolds, not just the sacrifice petals.
Alpha: No, sacrifice petals. The central ring is the Love Ring. Sacrifice petals are the end of this ...
Delta: It says the three petals of the central ring of the egoic lotus come also into full unfoldment.
Alpha: Because the sacrifice petal of any ring coincides with its full unfoldment of the whole ...
Delta: So is that implying the jewel in the lotus?
Alpha: Not at all. We are no where near it yet.
Delta: And when it says five of the spirillae, generally one spirillae unfolds with each round and on this planet. With each root race … at the end of seven root races seven spirillae.
Alpha: Yeah, but to the extent that human beings really become soul-infused and eventually transfigured beings, they are going to become fifth rounders, even in the fourth round.
Delta: I will try and extend that. So, in other words, the fifth spirillae is unfolded and you are a fifth rounder.
Gamma: So now this guy we are talking about here is becoming a fifth rounder.
Delta: Well the general trend of evolution is the fourth spirillae in the fourth round, the fifth spirillae in the fifth round, the sixth spirillae in the sixth round, and so forth, the general trend.
Epsilon: That is why it is difficult to do it in advance.
Beta: As a theosophical point of view, yet we find all those lotuses with only two petals unfolded , and that is the vast majority of humanity. So ...
Alpha: How many spirillae would those two petallers be?
Beta: Very good question.
Delta: Probably four ... or on the fourth.
Alpha: ... would they necessarily?
Beta:. ... depends on the plane. Usually ... the what, physical? They develop from the bottom up.
Alpha: That is right. A rather full unfoldment of the physical permanent atom might not correspond to any extensive unfoldment of the astral permanent atom.
Beta: The middle only has four unless there is some major transformation that allows five.
Alpha: How many spirillae does the manasic permanent atom have; mental unit has four, but the manasic permanent atom?
Beta: Of course. It must have five at some point.
Alpha: Well, I think that the main point here is that somehow soul is taking effect … and we do have at least a soul that is paying attention to and is taking what might be called an active interest, some degree of active interest.
Delta: Do you think the heart chakra within the head chakra is being awakened then, with this?
Alpha: I don’t think so. But … ah, this is interesting because we are dealing with probably spiritual man up to the third initiation. Heart, throat and seven head centres. …
Delta: No. One second. What happened to the heart, throat and forehead centres?
Alpha: I believe that we talked about that as possibly occurring at the fifth petal … and we still have to decide this ajna—alta thing. Different points of view are being brought forward. But now that we are on the sixth petal ... and ...
Delta: You are saying six is heart, throat and seven head centres?
Alpha: Yeah. But, we have to bear in mind that there is probably a point that is heart, throat and five head centres ... heart, throat and six head centres ... heart, throat and seven head centres.
Delta: Yeah. I realise that it doesn’t magically happen in one second.
(End of tape)
Gamma: We discussed first the head centre, the throat centre, the seven head centre triangle and we said that probably not all the head centres are alive at the same time, you know. We discussed the spirillae …
Alpha: OK. Let’s see if we can summarise. We were looking at the transition between the fifth and the sixth petal. We spent quite a bit of time on the fifth petal and thought that somehow the ajna centre should be involved because we have at least a stage of personality integration and movement along the path.
Delta: You think ajna should be involved ...?
Alpha: Well ... this may be one of those misprints, from the second, or a correction from the first. That is our problem. We don’t know.
Beta: Well, they may be specially one for Cosmic Fire, one for Esoteric Astrology.
Alpha: And that may be so. There was no sic following it. But there it was.
Now, we should reread because the tape didn’t work at that time, the sixth petal, the petal of sacrifice for the astral plane .... Cosmic Fire, page 541...
“The Petal of Sacrifice for the astral plane; unfoldment is brought about by the attitude of man as he consciously endeavours to give up his own desires for the sake of his group. His motive is still somewhat a blind one, and still coloured by the desire for a return of that which he gives and for love from those he seeks to serve, but it is of a much higher order than the blind sacrifice to which a man is driven by circumstances as is the case in the earlier unfoldment.”
We discussed the importance here of altruism and the Neptunian quality and the Venusian quality, and the overcoming of the Martian quality. We also noticed that the number six is very important and that Virgo is involved here (the sixth sign) and it is esoterically ruled by Neptune and/or Vulcan. That Neptune and Vulcan rulership of the moon in Virgo is very significant because we are on the path here, and Vulcan rules the spiritual will, which must dominate desire at this point. And (oh, it is perfect), Neptune rules the transmutation of desire into higher solar plexus and eventually into heart. And that is all taking place at the time of the second initiation that we correlate somewhat with this particular petal.
Delta: So, sixth petal, second initiation?
Alpha: Well. You can justify it quite well I think. And earlier I had said that we are looking at spiritual man to the third initiation on page 88 of Esoteric Astrology, in the triangle of heart, throat and the seven head centres. We said that not all head centres are going to open up; now all seven will open up before the third initiation. But, Vulcan we connected with the spiritual will. OK, hence, at the second initiation, there is a powerful Vulcanian effect on Mars. Mars represents desire. And Vulcan represents spiritual will. And therefore to see the sun in opposition to Mars is a good example of Vulcan opposed Mars, or square or whatever. Neptune would get into the act too, so you know there is some relationship there.
You could look for astrological signatures of that nature. And if you knew that a person was more or less at that point of evolution you could show him his opportunity to utilise the energies, which I think is part of what the new esoteric astrology is all about. (Saying for example, “Basically, considering where you are, this is what you have got to work with … this is what you have to do.”)
Delta: Yeah.
Alpha: One of the other things we discussed also was the degree of mind necessary to take the second initiation. And I read from page 267 DINA II (and we had a little discussion on this): “Spiritual instinct, the lowest aspect of the intuition indicates readiness for the first initiation”. This is clearly buddhi ... astral—buddhic. “An illumined mind ...” (Whatever that means, we have some difference of opinion perhaps.) “... and spiritual intelligence are the definite sign that a man can take the second initiation whilst spiritual perception or intuitive instinct signifies preparedness for the transfiguration, the third initiation.”
And then I pointed out the interesting idea of a certain ISGL [one of the DINA disciples], who was a man with a sixth ray soul transferring to the second ray soul taking the second initiation, which he did not, and yet he was a scholar. He was a classicist and a leader of a certain ashram and as well a psychologist, an intellectual man who had not yet taken the second initiation.
Then I pointed out that out of the fifty or so students of DK, all of them were being prepared for initiation, and by that the Tibetan meant the second and the third initiation. And by far the great majority of them were being prepared for the second initiation, and yet they were all scholarly, intellectual, mentally focused, etc. So, that supports the idea that more mind is required to take the second degree than we may have thought.
Then, further we said the second initiation is the runway to the final takeoff into the kingdom of spirituality. And that it indicates the beginning of the end. So when you have reached that second degree point it is a great acceleration and from that time on the petals are going to be opening much more rapidly.
Then Beta brought up the question of will and the three types of protowill, which were strength for the physical plane, intention for the astral plane, and self-will for the mental plane. And that desire was based upon duality but that will was based upon unity. (Desire on consciousness, will on the life aspect.) …
Now did we leave out any other?
Beta: The evolution of will. On the astral side is basically astral desire, aspiration, striving. And then spiritual will. … And then it blends with the mental. The true will but on the astral line. That would be the line of the mystic to a great extent.
Alpha: Um-hmm. You know what, very interesting, DK gave Assagioli the project of the will to do, and you will see it in his papers. And of course he did, he wrote The Act of Will. Naturally he did not use the occult terminology. And it would be very interesting to do a project of the will on occultism.
Now the same man ISGL was given a project to write the Way Into Shamballa, remember from the DINA books he was told ‘please write a book on the way into Shamballa’. This was meant to transfer him off of his emotional focus [so he could make] the second degree. He didn’t do it, he wrote instead a book that had a strong sixth ray psychometric vibration and failed the test on that.
So it was very interesting that the Shamballic connection could occur right there at the second degree. And at the same time when the monad becomes somewhat active because of the number correspondence. …
Beta: The monad becomes somewhat active, yes, I found the section of the subplane moving up to the second subplane. (I don’t know how useful it is, because it is sort of vague.) This ties in with the direct channel between the atomic subplane and each plane. At the bottom of that paragraph, 578, Cosmic Fire: “After initiation, the causal body is found on the second subplane of the mental plane, and monadic control then commences.” Monadic control then commences.
Alpha: Monadic control is interesting because you don’t even have monadic control at the third degree, but there is the idea of commencement, and there is a statement that the monad is even involved at the first initiation of the threshold. … OK. Now that is an important statement.
Epsilon: You said also something, Alpha, about to know, to express and so on.....
Alpha: Well, simply I said that the five commands are: know, express, reveal, destroy, resurrect. I used to think that the second degree involved expression, the whole idea of taking the emotional body and somehow expressing it along a higher line. But, later I discovered that it had a much more mental meaning, and express had to do with the ability to understand and express the plan in manifest service.
By the way, the Law of Service is connected with number six. It is ruled by Pisces, which is the same Pisces-Virgo duality on this sixth petal. And the Law of Service therefore should be connected with the second initiation, the ability to really be of service in connection with the plan. Really in a focused way.
Epsilon: You linked ‘to know’ with the divine plane the third aspect, Saturn and ray three, you said that the second degree must prove this contact.
Alpha: I said the second degree person must prove that they have some degree of mind because plan is related to the third aspect and mind. It is the Saturn aspect. So there is the connection (2x3 is 6), a relation between the third and sixth.
OK. So maybe that caught up what we lost on the tape more or less.
Delta: There was a tentative proposition that there might be rulerships given for the five planes, so we looked on page 426 of Esoteric Astrology and the twelve signs are broken up into two groups: one of seven signs related to the unfoldment of planetary consciousness upon the Earth, and five signs related to unfoldment in time and space of the human hierarchy.
The five signs were Cancer, Leo, Scorpio, Capricorn, Pisces. If you want to memorise it ....it is the three water signs and Leo and Capricorn. Then, the bottom of page 426: “Man, it might be stated, is the expression of seven principles and of the life expression or activity of five planes. In this 7 + 5 is to be found the clue to the mystery of the seven and the five zodiacal constellations.” So maybe Cancer, Leo, Scorpio, Capricorn, Pisces are the signs associated with the five planes.
Alpha: Or, another interpretation, that during the regime on which man evolves through the five planes, he particularly accomplishes the fulfillment of those five signs, psychologically. You know, prakritically.
Delta: And three of those signs he spends a lot of time on: Leo, Capricorn, Pisces.
Alpha: Yeah. Interesting, though, he says that triangle is going to fade out of ... power, back in 1945? (Yes, he spends a lot of time on them.)
And, in terms of triangles, I have thought that all permutations are permissible and active. In other words, in any system, all entities are related to every other entity. If I was going to start at the bottom I would go like this: base, sacral spleen. Base, sacral, solar plexus. Base, sacral, heart. Base, sacral, throat. I would go through all permutations, all possible triangle and I think that all of them would have some degree of validity, just the way in any planetary system I would take any two and relate it to all the others. And I would do that with the zodiac too to create the total combinations and permutations which I think are somehow existent.
Epsilon: It is what we did with the rays.
Delta: Also. This is slightly off the topic, but not a hundred percent. Over and over there is an emphasis on Mercury, Saturn, Uranus. For example we talked about the cycle after the first, but before the third initiation. Those are the three rulers of the [centres]: Saturn for the throat, Mercury for the ajna, and Uranus for the crown. Then, when he gives the three major lines of force – Leo, Pisces, Capricorn – Leo coming through Saturn, Pisces through Uranus, and Capricorn through Mercury.
Then, on page 548: “Within the solar system itself, three of the sacred planets are peculiarly active. ” And he goes on for a few pages about Uranus, Mercury, Saturn. So those three planets seem to be repeated many, many, many times through out Esoteric Astrology and the other books in combination. It seems to be a constant [pattern] Mercury, Saturn, Uranus. (I thought I would just mention that for whatever it is worth.)
Alpha: Hmmm. I think that is very important. I would say that that is antahkaranic in a certain way. … If you look at Saturn as a sort of foundation, and relate it to the mental unit, and Mercury as the first phase of the antahkarana, and Uranus in its third ray aspect indicating the abstract mind, you could see kind of an antahkarana set-up there.
There are other ways to interpret it of course, using the atmic plane and other things like that you know. … Well it is also the triad. It is atma, buddhi, manas in a certain way, isn’t it? The three aspects of the antahkarana but from a higher point of view, Uranus is atma; Mercury is buddhi; Saturn is manas.
Beta: There was a section when we were talking about the lotuses incarnating and so many lotuses of passion and desire dumped on Earth. This is associated with Venus. I found this cite for it, Esoteric Astrology, page 596, which is where he deals with the rays associated with the will aspect which work out destructively … it is the will aspect which works destructively through the orthodox rulers, and constructively through the esoteric planets. And she says it concerns spirit and not soul ...and the seed ... the: “...germinating the seed of the next solar system, the third, and the fruition of the Personality Manifestation of the Logos.”
So when she goes on to page 600, in the middle there it says, this about ray six: “It expresses God’s desire and is the basic energy emanating from the cosmic astral plane. It conceals the mystery which is to be found in the relationship of the will and desire. Desire is related to consciousness. Will is not.”
She goes on in another section I am not sure where, saying desire is consciousness aspect, will is life aspect. … There is not much disquisition on the (technical) nature of desire. ...
Alpha: No ... but there is a big section in Esoteric Psychology Vol. II on desire.
Beta: I mean in terms of material for students that is out there.
Gamma: You know this is very intriguing about how the aspects of the rays are expressed, how they will express in the will aspect.
Alpha: Yeah. That is very important. Maybe every one of the astrological signs can be connected with will expression, consciousness expression, form expression, because he does it for will anyway … and the whole book is about the type of consciousness that the ...
Beta: I think all the tabulations on the seven rays are specific to some strata.
Delta: Yeah. Do we want to go on to the last three petals, or perhaps we want to break here and go on to the creative hierarchies.
Alpha: Lets just wrap it up with the last three petals, because they are all going to unfold in one life anyway, right? No, it almost seems preposterous to say so but, you would have to say it could happen.
Gamma: You know, just like he says somewhere in Initiation Human and Solar, he says, oh after the third initiation there is not too much to do. There is almost nothing to do, he says.
Alpha: Well, he says that progress will be extremely rapid. The amount of knowledge assimilated will be stupendous. He didn’t use that word but the idea is, the synthesis petals are opening ... Not too much to do after the third initiation? So why bother with the fourth.
Delta: I guess for rulerships there we would be thinking about the rulerships of the seven head centres. And the three major, perhaps the Great Bear, Sirius, Pleiades.
Alpha: Yeah. ... the seven head centres. We said either the Great Bear, Sirius and Pleiades were the three above the seven, or the first three by dim reflection. We also said Vulcan is associated, but the seven head centres would also have to somehow connect with the seven sacred planets ... wouldn’t they? So, there is maybe some ruled in general by the idea of spiritual will in the head, and then ruled in particular by a planet.
Delta: That is why we agree that Vulcan, Uranus would be associated with these centres, in general.
Gamma: In terms that all the planets are going to be active in their higher octave.
Alpha: Yeah. That is right. It is very interesting that he doesn’t associate Vulcan much with electric fire. He associates it so much with will, will and the imposition of will, and men of will and all that kind of thing, spiritual will. But, he says Uranus is the home of electric fire. The whole electrical nature of Uranus is more prominent than the electrical nature of Vulcan.
Beta: And it is also the source of the Creative Hierarchies.
Alpha: What? Uranus? ... the source of the Creative Hierarchies? ... well ... anyway, Vulcan is much more related to density in some way. We will take that up as soon as we start with these creative hierarchies.
Let’s just rapidly do the last three petals.
Delta: Let me just give the quote backing up what Beta just said about Uranus and the Creative Hierarchies ...because we are going to come on to that next. Page 99, Esoteric Astrology: “Uranus is the planet through which zodiacal energy flows, in connection with the Creative Hierarchies upon our planet, from one of the stars of the Great Bear.”
Beta: ... different.
Alpha: “.... through which energy flows in connection with the Creative Hierarchies upon our planet, from one of the stars ...” OK, well that has to be sorted out. Anyway ...
Gamma: [All complimenting Delta on quick reference checks.] You really know all the places.
Delta: Well I wrote it down right in the book; when things occur to me I write it down on the page.
Alpha: That is why you don’t lose these books.
Let’s move on to the seventh petal: “The Petal of Knowledge for the mental plane; its unfoldment marks the period wherein the man consciously utilizes all that he has gained or is gaining under the law for the definite benefit of humanity.”
There is a lot there about The Law of Service. There is some third ray in all of that. There is some Saturn in that because it is conscious, intelligent utilisation, utilitarianism, you know. And this is still part of this period: "spiritual man to the third initiation.” As a matter of fact, we are not going to move out of triangle number six if we stay in these nine petals.
[Note, they are looking at two sets of references that tell about the petals: 822, 823, and 824 are where one set of references are and the other is on 539 through 542].
Now that is page 541, but in relation to page 822: “The Will to sacrifice through knowledge on the mental plane, and thus intelligently to dominate the entire threefold lower man.” The Law of Sacrifice is involved here. The Law of Repulse is involved here. Mercury is involved here ...but, there is a lot of Vulcan here and a lot of Mercury and a lot of Saturn.
“The Will to Sacrifice” ... the Law of Sacrifice is ruled by Mercury.
“... through knowledge” ... that is Mercury.
“... on the mental plane” ... that is Mercury and Saturn.
“... thus intelligently to dominate” ... that is Vulcan.
“... the entire threefold lower man.” ... that is spiritual will.
So, that is really enforcing the man through detachment to play the game of manifesting the plan. This is a … disciple. I want to point out that there is a difference between an advanced man and a disciple, see that on page 332 and 333 of Esoteric Astrology. He tells you. ‘Undeveloped Man’, ‘Advanced Man’, and the third category is ‘Disciple Initiate’. Whereas an aspirant is often listed as an ‘Advanced Man’, a Disciple is beyond that.
Delta: A disciple meaning a person has taken the first initiation.
Alpha: Usually, but ... in the case of one of these people with the Tibetan ... you know ...
Beta: Well he distinguishes Advanced Man from Disciple, not from aspirant ...right?
Alpha: ...not aspirant. Advanced Man and Aspirant you can ...
Beta: They are still useful for arguing purposes.
Alpha: Well. One must Argue! ... great disputers all argue!
Beta: No one believes in terminology ... (in Boston).
Alpha: ... is that so. How many students do you have?
Beta: Oh. I don’t know. People come and go. There has been about twelve people in Cosmic Fire. There are five people in the core group, more or less.
Alpha: That is pretty good. And you have a Cosmic Fire group …
Delta: Yeah. I don’t think it is that people don’t believe in terminology, just you are more aware of the issues involved. People are just trying to get the initial broad stroke. They are so confused. Whereas, once you have the initial broad stroke and you understand, you want to fill it in a little bit more clearly ...
Alpha: with “meticulous entirety” ...
OK. So ... we are still here in triangle number five ... we are not going to get into triangle number six until you get into the synthesis petals. You know what is interesting? These two ‘many-petalled lotuses’, if we consider that they are the ajna centre and, let’s say the entire crown (or whatever, because that is what has been said the other day), we are obviously talking about the higher functions of those, especially of the ajna centre. Because why couldn’t the ajna centre be listed earlier? In a sense it is.
Beta: And there is later reference too which is a bit confusing but it deals with alta major centre and its stimulation. It talks about the highest head centre as one of the three points of at-one-ment. But that is for kundalini, its distinct from the ether, but that is just another reference, on page 1160.
Alpha: Well that is an important one, I want to put it somewhere where it will do some good. Alta major?
OK, we are still in that triangle, but you want to know, what are the planetary potencies in petal number seven. And I suggested Mercury, Vulcan, Saturn. What do you think? I was also suggesting Jupiter. … don’t forget, there is a growth of knowledge here, there is an intelligence emphasis, isn’t there?
Gamma: This is the third aspect.
Alpha: Yes. The third aspect. … the unfoldment marks “the man consciously utilizes all that he has gained”. That sounds to me like acquisition.
Gamma: Or maybe with an idea of synthesis also.
Alpha: I think so too. I think after a person has fought it out on the emotional plane, dominated his aspiration by spiritual will, at the second degree he is ready to accumulate learning and knowledge in a higher sense.
Beta: He has dropped the warring idealism … and that means ideologies. I mean incredible intellectual sophistication, people writing twenty books on some one ideology.
Alpha: Sure. That shows you the blend between the theologist who is sponsored by the sixth ray ...
Beta: One is the religions, one is the intellectual type. They want to serve the race but they have lots of personal investment.
Alpha: Lots invested. But what seems to be happening here in terms of the seventh petal is that the minute you enter the sacrifice petals some degree of detachment is stepping in. Yeah. So a whole bunch of laws kick in at this point. Law of Sacrifice, Law of Service, Law of Magnetic Response, Law of Repulse. The second law of the soul, the Law of Magnetic Response, that is it.
OK. So, Jupiter for synthesis and, what is interesting also in this respect, is to study the colour that is involved with each one of these petals. And how it indicates a program of activity for the person.
Delta: That is given though in the book, and even the colours that we can deal with and think about and wear ... etc. So. Enough on the seventh petal?
Gamma: Have we really cleared down the planets, Jupiter?
Alpha: Well. Jupiter for synthesis or gathering of knowledge. Saturn for utilisation. Vulcan for the domination of the lower man, and Saturn for the domination of the lower man and Mercury simply because it is a knowledge petal and it involves discipleship. What is the planet of discipleship? Mercury; Saturn; this has to be real discipleship.
Beta: The antahkarana has to be being built ...
Alpha: Right. Mercury—Saturn. Antahkarana, very definitely.
Beta: Mercury—Saturn also rules the fourth initiation.
Alpha: No. No. In a much different way.
Beta: In a different way, yes, this is preparatory I guess.
Delta: So could we say, for an example, a lot of people were born the same day, and here is Alice Bailey, but nonetheless she has that Mercury-Saturn septile … if I recall.
Beta: What about Venus?
Alpha: Well, here is the point. You move beyond Mars. And we moved beyond lunar life to a certain extent. We are really under the influence at this point of the solar life as reflected through Venus, the solar angel. (Or, I can’t discriminate as you do on solar lords or solar angels, but yeah.) We are meditating now, we are under the rays of Venus, we are obtaining occult knowledge through close study – so we have transmuted desire to a certain extent ...Venus is that.
OK. But, Delta I not sure I am satisfying this in terms of finding a single [planet] …
Delta: No. I understand that. And it got to recover a person’s rays [sic?] and also those head centres will control other centres of the body. So I understand these last petal, especially ... will have a lot going in them.
Alpha: Well that is where your intuition comes in. To figure out what to select out of the possible array.
Gamma: And the more we are going to these synthetic petals, the more and more it involves synthesising.
Beta: One thing that strikes me in my tabulation, I am not sure if it is the same with other people’s chakra tabulation, but I have a gap with the first and second initiations where you know these planets go up and down all over the chart, but Venus is missing from the tabulation. Say, for undeveloped man it is usually throat, then for average man it goes up to the ajna centre, but then way later it is associated with the sacral in the probationary path, and then right after the probationary path it is associated with initiates, it would be ajna centre again. But with the first and second initiation there is nothing ...
Alpha: It should be. Venus should be a ruler in the second initiation to tranquillise the astral body. And that would be page 70 of Esoteric Astrology. In other words, the mind becomes the tranquilliser and the soother and the harmoniser of the astral body. Neptune, Venus ...
Beta: ... Jupiter. Second degree.
Delta: On page 387 through 388, Esoteric Astrology, it says the secret of Taurus is revealed at the second initiation. So that would have a Venus tie in also.
Alpha: Very much so. There is a new variety of light dispelled glamour at the second initiation and Taurus is really involved in the deglamorising process. The sort of beacon light projected from the ajna centre. Venus once again, to help with the deglamorisation.
Gamma: We know that Venus can be one of the rulers of the ajna centre. When the fifth ray enters.
Alpha: Yes, it should be. And from that point of view, Venus in connection with the ajna centre at the third degree. And sometimes I think that both Venus and Mercury rule the ajna centre, one on one side one on the other, during an interim period. You know, the eye of manas and the eye of buddhi. In other words. This is the point when you are blending together your intuition and your mind. Yeah OK.
Delta: Let’s go on to another petal.
Alpha: Petal number eight, page 541-542, Cosmic Fire:
“The Petal of Love on the mental plane is unfolded through the conscious steady application of all the powers of the soul to the service of humanity with no thought of return nor any desire for reward for the immense sacrifice involved.”
Beta: What is the motivation, then. I mean besides the obvious, the soul and soul’s wisdom ... Yeah. It is beautiful. It is interesting. … I mean at the third initiation there is a sense of phantasmagoria with the external world ... because of insight into the inner and outer world, the outer world takes on a tone of phantasmagoria.
Alpha: Yeah ... seeing through the great illusion.
Beta: Does that mean a repulsion? The repulsion by the second ray ... or?
Alpha: Well, for sure ...the Law of Repulse is operative in all of these final petals ... and especially at the fourth initiation. ... it increases up to the fourth initiation, but ... what is the motivation here? I think, in a way, Love is its own motivation. Somehow the person is in touch with Neptune, in touch with Jupiter here, Christ’s work, Venus.
This is a very soft line petal in a way. However, it is repulsive to form, I think. Petal number eight is ... 8, Scorpio, repelling form, all that kind of thing.
“Through conscious steady application ...” … there is a whole bunch of Saturn in it, because a person holds themselves in great discipline.
“… of all the powers of the soul ...” … so it is Aquarian, in a way. You are dumping out a whole bunch of things under the Law of Service.
“... with no thought of return ...” … so there is Pisces and Neptune.
“... nor any desire for reward ...” … so there is no Mars.
Delta: That would be Vulcan ... the persistence aspect.
Alpha: You are quite correct. Vulcan is very persistent, Vulcan and Saturn. Good old Jehovah. “... nor any desire for reward for the immense sacrifice involved ...” The Law of Sacrifice is operative on all these petals, and there is selflessness. What are the astrological factors that have to do with real selflessness? It comes to the fore here. And by the way there is tremendous Buddhi reflected in this petal. In other words, you are not fully Buddhic but this is a whole lot more Buddhic than petal number seven. So what kind of people do you see here? Do you know any?
Beta: What is Buddhichitta, the Buddhist sort of principle of our principle of Buddhi; Buddhichitta is Buddhi and Venus mind.
Alpha: Right. That is the best we can hope for here, Buddhi-manas in a high degree.
Gamma: Highly intuitive.
Alpha: Yes. It is an intuitive petal. You know. I have seen a lot of people who were sort of overtaken by wisdom at a certain point. They know a lot. But the focus is no longer on what they know but exactly how they can apply everything they know in service at the moment in the best possible way. And I think that there is a lot of that going on in this petal number eight. A sort of a Christ like wisdom of when and how to apply what it is you are equipped with.
This is just like walking up to the third initiation. Like, RG used to say, I know some people ready for the third initiation but their heart isn’t adequate to it. In every other way they are ready, mentally, manasically, but the heart is not there. And this I think is a real heart petal. I also think it is quite severe because it corresponds to the number eight, so a lot of sacrifice involved in it. You had better know the difference between personal love and impersonal love at this petal.
Beta: It is interesting the number four comes in too with transmuted astral and/or desire energy which is the Buddhist principle of the four infinite meditations. They are all to transform the emotional states. One, is happiness and benefits for others, one is the removal of them from any situation that would cause unhappiness or foolishness. Another is that they may be able to maintain that through their own motivation, then the fourth, is equanimity during the (inaudible) ... and they just use it as a meditation, a buddhichitta meditation that can be done at any time, infinitely generate the psychic ...
Alpha: It really seems to fit, doesn’t it? I just want to read a slight paragraph here. It is very beautiful, I think, page 355 of Esoteric Psychology Vol. II: “Release thyself from all that stands around, for it has naught for thee, so look to me. I am the One who builds, sustains and draws thee on and up. Look unto me with eyes of love, and seek the path which leads from the outer circle to the point.” So, there is the whole idea here of ....
Delta: That is really beautiful.
Alpha: Yeah. It says: “The love of love must dominate, not love of being loved. The power to draw unto oneself must dominate, but into the worlds of form that power must some day fail to penetrate. This is the first step towards a deeper search.”
Beta: It says about life, its loneliness, you know the beauty of love, the beauty of loneliness.
Alpha: Sure, the beauty of loneliness. See, the whole idea is only through detached love, the Law of Repulse, eight, double four, whatever, the fourth law is the Law of Repulse. Fourth law is all double eight. Through Law of Repulse you can detach from love of outer world and you have to be if you are getting ready for the big dump in petal number nine.
Delta: Core dump.
Alpha: Core dump. Petal number nine you know. I love what he says here about petal number nine. It is so drastic, page 823: “The utter sacrifice of all forever.”
Beta: Right. It is a beautiful statement.
Alpha: I mean really. First of all I think it is almost too much for that stage of evolution. Un., you know, I didn’t read petal number eight on this page: “The will to sacrifice through love on the mental plane, and thus to serve.” That has to mean a whole lot of the will to love ...the will-to-good the will-to-love.
Beta: On the mental plane.
Alpha: Yeah. On the mental plane.
Beta: The fifth initiation is still taken, the mental plane, although you are liberated from it.
Alpha: What about atma? In other words, we here so much about the atmic focus of the Masters.
Beta: Well, the transference from the manasic permanent atom is dropped in favour for the atmic permanent atom. Actually I think it is only the mental unit that is dropped as a matter of fact. … Yeah, for the triad.
Alpha: Yeah, just wondering whether as you go up for the initiations, the fourth initiation has a lot to do with Buddhi and the fifth with atma. So that when we say it is taken upon the mental plane, what do we mean. Is not the fourth initiation taken upon the buddhic plane or, what is the relationship of the fourth initiation.
Beta: You still have Buddhi if you are still in incarnation on the fifth initiation. All I can imagine is that the causal body has been destroyed, some remnant of it may be preserved, the antahkarana, because to exist on the physical plane you have to have a sutratma ... and antahkarana is probably still attached to it in some purified form. So, you still have mental focus through the manasic permanent atom. But you are liberated from it from all three worlds, as a result from the manasic point of view, but still you have that manasic focus.
[Deleted much of ensuing conversation on permanent atoms, as was unsubstantiable.]
Alpha: Whatever is going on in the causal body is somehow lifted as an essence into the triad. So, you know, the essence is there but destruction [of permanent atoms] also takes place.
Beta: Well it may not be, and he says that for anyone to manifest you have to have the three lower permanent atoms. Then in the mayavarupa you have to recreate them or reproject them somehow.
Alpha: Or find a way to simply select an atomic atom and use it as a generative point.
Beta: You just attach the triad to something lower, but it would be much more interesting if you had actually three atoms surrounding, you’d have a tetrahedron, three atoms surrounding the manasic permanent atom from which, like a base centre from which to operate.
Alpha: Um-hmm. Well. Interesting. But let’s see if we can just wind up petal number nine here because we want to get on to the hierarchies and other issues.
“The Petal of Sacrifice for the mental plane: demonstrates as the predominant bias of the soul as seen in a series of many lives spent by the initiate prior to his final emancipation. He becomes in his sphere the "Great Sacrifice."
Well, Venus is important here because Sanat Kumara is the Great Sacrifice. To a certain extent you have consummated Venus at the ninth petal, haven’t you? In other words you’ve become the four and the nine.
(end of tape)
Alpha: Are there enough correspondences to be used astrologically.
Delta: Well, you would probably have Uranus there.
Alpha: Well, I am looking at the whole picture now. Yeah. Sure, in a certain sense.
Delta: There is any one of about three major constellations, and so forth.
Alpha: When you look at the three sacrifice petals, you have to put down Saturn, Neptune, Uranus, a sort of fiery consummation goes on here. But Venus is the head of the whole thing. In other words, you have achieved Venus. What you have done by finishing petal number nine is you have turned Earth into Venus or, you have amalgamated the two.
Beta: Ummm. There is an interesting question in relation to the permanent atoms. He says that when at the third initiation the mind is supposed to become fourth dimensional they turn upon themselves, the entire causal body becomes radioactive, then the fires of substance, the vitality of the permanent atom, not necessarily the permanent atoms themselves, escape from the atomic spheres of the permanent atoms, the vitality does, to add their quota to the great sphere in which they are contained. That reminds me of the three atoms enclosed in a triple envelope of mental essence and then the triad as also enclosed in an envelope of triple essence.
Alpha: Well. See. The question is ... (we have to find a number of citations), because sometimes they say ‘the fiery blaze’, and sometimes ‘there is nothing left’ …
Delta: You said the Earth has become Venus, that would imply that we ...
Alpha: ... the man has become sacred. He is not a sacred man. He is a sacred man at the third initiation. But, still somehow, the interesting thing is he is not totally sacred until the fourth degree, because he is still on the manasic plane. The manasic plane is still material from the point of view of the Solar Logos. So, you know it is an interesting transition ...
Delta: You see Sanat Kumara is a representative of the Solar Logos, not Venus, per se.
Alpha: Of both.
Gamma: When you say it is a non principle ... it is non principle according to the Solar Logos.
Alpha: That is right. Even our causal body is just a physical body according to the Solar Logos, even though it is even less than that. It is kind of the physical body of the Planetary Logos, isn’t it? What you call etheric.
Beta: I think I might call it etheric for the Planetary Logos, but definitely dense for the Solar Logos.
Delta: Do you see the other kumaras as representative of the Solar Logos and Venus also? In addition to Sanat Kumara?
Alpha: There are divine kumaras and there are planetary kumaras, I think there has to be a differentiation.
Beta: OK. Divine Kumaras are related to the Solar Logos ...
Delta: Well, Alpha is saying that Sanat Kumara represents the Solar Logos and Venus. Do you agree with that.
Beta: Well, he is Saturn too, in a way; he is a whole bunch of things. That is the solar kundalini triangle.
Alpha: He is Capricorn too, related to the Makara, because Venus and Saturn are the two rulers of Capricorn. In a way he is the Ancient of Days, that is Capricorn; He is the Youth of Endless Summers, that is Aries; And he the King, that is Leo; he is the Great Sacrifice, that is Pisces. I bet he comprehends the whole zodiac within himself ...
Beta: Actually I have done a very large compilation on that, the kumaras.
Alpha: What we should do is ... if we have a chance to discuss the hierarchies, Hierarchies and Kumaras are subjects of great interest.
OK. I think we will break now.