Alpha: So this is our final evening, and after three days here we are. It is after supper on the third day. Is the moon still in Aries?
Delta: The moon is still in Aries.
Alpha: OK we are concluding tonight with an examination of Hierarchy Three and Hierarchy One, perhaps. Just hearing some thoughts on them, and trying to fathom the meaning of the couple of references which discuss the relationship between the Creative Hierarchies and the rays, which I am sure Delta you can find for us? Yes. Good. OK. And then we may take a very cursory look at what is on the board. By the way, has everybody read the questions that I prepared? I know it is a rather long list, but has everybody read that list?
Delta: Yes, I read it.
Beta: Almost all of it, yeah.
Epsilon: Yes I did.
Alpha: OK, I just wanted to make sure everybody knew what was on there. So that when we begin to plan for the future we can be cognisant of these questions.
You know, it is very curious to me with respect to the third Creative Hierarchy in the Secret Doctrine that Blavatsky has one sentence about it. Simply one. Does anybody know if that is in Volume III or Volume II, where will we find that, the Lesser Builders, the atmic hierarchy, the Fleur de Lis. She has only one sentence about it; I want to see if that can be found. I think we should look at that third Creative Hierarchy, which is as you were saying most mysterious.
(tape paused)
Alpha: Whereas Blavatsky says practically nothing in the main section on it. DK says a great deal and lets just read it. Esoteric Astrology, page 40: “The third Creative Hierarchy (or the eighth) ...” And this should tie in with all of your eights, the kali chakra, etc. This “... is a peculiarly interesting one. They are called ‘the Triads’ for They hold in themselves the potencies of triple evolution, mental, psychical, and spiritual.”
By the way, as Beta and I were leaving the door today it came to mind that just as the second Creative Hierarchy somehow vitalises the monads, it is quite possible that the third Creative Hierarchy, called the Triads, vitalises our spiritual triads. It is a thought. OK.
“These Triads of Life are inherently the three Persons of the Trinity and the flower of the earlier system from a certain angle.”
By the way, the word flower is important:
“From another angle, when studied as the ‘flower of the earlier Eight,’ They are the eightfold points awaiting opportunity to flame forth. They are the devas who are ready for service, which is to give to another Hierarchy certain qualities which are lacking. This Hierarchy is regarded ...”
Do You have something on that? “This Hierarchy is regarded as the great donors of immortality ...” (Page 238, Secret Doctrine.
(tape paused)
Alpha: Page 238 in Volume I. And where it would be found, oh, my God look at this, will you. This would be stanza seven, number one. … Page 218 (in the normal two volume series, facsimile series). Thank you Gamma for locating that, we managed to do it. So page 218, the Creative Hierarchies. And all I have to do is just read what Blavatsky says: “The Third order corresponds to the Atma-Buddhi-Manus: Spirit, Soul and Intellect, and is called the ‘Triads’.” End.
I am going to continue to read here, continuing page 41 of Esoteric Astrology:
“This Hierarchy is regarded as the great donors of immortality whilst Themselves "standing aloof from incarnation." Lords of Sacrifice and Love are They, but They cannot pass out of the logoic etheric body into the dense physical vehicle. This third Hierarchy wields the third aspect of electric force of the first type of cosmic energy.”
Does that correspond with what is on 1224 [TCF]?
Beta: They say it is the third of the first shakti or type of force.
Alpha: Well that says the same thing, the first type of cosmic energy; a shakti apparently is a cosmic energy.
“They stand for a recurrent cycle of that first type symbolised by the number 8.”
What does that mean?
“The formulae for these electrical energies are too complicated to be given here, but the student should bear in mind that these Hierarchies express:
1. Septenary cosmic energy.”
Gamma: Ah he talks about the Hierarchies, not that particular one
Alpha: No, ‘these’ hierarchies, right … These hierarchies express:
1. Septenary cosmic energy.
2. Cosmic prana.
3. Solar energy or electric fire, solar fire and fire by friction.
By the way there is real interesting hint about what is electric fire for us, is solar fire in a higher sense.
Beta: And let me make a note here for people on number 2. Cosmic prana. She defines it on page 38 [Esoteric Astrology] … just three pages back. Cosmic prana basically equals seven constellational forces:
“Each of the seven Hierarchies of Beings, found within the Twelve, Who are the Builders or the Attractive Agents are (in their degree) intermediaries; all embody one of the types of force emanating from the seven constellations.”
They are the builders among the Creative Hierarchies. “... Who are the Builders or the Attractive Agents are (in their degree) ....”
Delta: Where is that, and how does that bear on prana?
Beta: Because he is repeating again the septenary ...
Epsilon: Each of the group is septenary in nature.
Beta: Yeah. Because you are moving from septenary cosmic energy which is cosmic prana which is force to solar energy or electric fire, solar fire, which is septenary cosmic substance. Our three fires down here. So you are moving from energy to force to substance. So cosmic prana would correspond to the seven constellational force which means the seven constellations.
Gamma: There is another reference in the Secret Doctrine about the Hierarchy Three, and he said there was nothing about Hierarchy Three. But there is more information on other Hierarchies ...
Alpha: ... loads in the Secret Doctrine on the other hierarchies. Only one sentence on Hierarchy Three.
“Each Hierarchy manifests a triple energy or an aspect of each of the above, and that necessitates a ninefold differentiation, for the two first are triple, as is the third. It is the rejection of the Triadal lives by units in the fourth Hierarchy, that of the human Monads, which precipitates a man eventually into the eighth sphere. He refuses to become a Christ, a Saviour and remains self-centred.
We have dealt with the first three Hierarchies which are regarded as ever ‘seeing the Face of the Ruler of the Deep’, or as being so pure and holy that Their forces are in realized contact with Their emanating source.”
... presumably a Planetary Logos.
Beta: This may be our triads with their new triads.
Alpha: Well, they are talking about the first three as being in touch with their emanating source.
Beta: And this is the challenge before the fourth Hierarchy.
Alpha: Yeah. Now this is a very provocative statement. All this stuff about cosmic electricity and, ah, I don’t have the energy right now to make all the differentiations. … I mean it is all a tremendous study.
Beta: Do we have a Theosophical Glossary? … I want to look up ring-pass-not.
Delta: Can I just throw out that basically these nine are the nine states that it has to go through to go through a full initiation. And then it switches to a higher Hierarchy. … Each of them has nine initiations ...
Alpha: It might be that. It might be structural too.
Beta: That what I forgot, Blavatsky supposedly didn’t use ring-pass-not.
Alpha: “The formulae for these electrical energies are too complicated ...” etc. etc. “... but the student should bear in mind that these Hierarchies express: 1. Septenary cosmic energy.” Where is septenary cosmic energy from? Is septenary cosmic energy from the constellations?
Beta: Yeah. That is what I think.
Epsilon: He speaks at page 38 a bit of it, fourth paragraph: “Each of these groups of beings is likewise septenary in nature, and the forty-nine fires of Brahma are the lowest manifestation of their fiery nature.”
Alpha: OK About which group is been talking about? ... every Hierarchy?
Delta: Yes.
Epsilon:
“Each of the seven Hierarchies of Beings, found within the Twelve, Who are the Builders or the Attractive Agents are (in their degree) intermediaries; all embody one of the types of force emanating from the seven constellations. Their intermediary work, therefore, is dual:”
Alpha: OK, hold on. Are the seven constellations part of our Zodiacal Constellations or are they part of the seven of the ten? Are these embodying energies from the OAWNMBS or are they just zodiacal constellations? Because there are after all seven zodiacal constellations listed in connection with that. But, using a funny word like ‘the’ seven constellations, it sounds like, instead of seven constellations, because there are seven constellations that are connected with the centres in the great being.
Delta: Well maybe this would be the rays so therefore they would be the seven major constellations outside the zodiac, if it is the rays. … If you consider them as the source of the rays.
Alpha: Yeah. “Mediators between spirit and matter” ... OK, each Hierarchy, to come back to what Delta was saying, these septenary cosmic energies might be coming from seven constellations, is that possible?
Epsilon & Beta: Yeah. That is what I was saying on 38.
Alpha: I thought you were connecting that with cosmic prana, because cosmic prana is different.
Beta: It is, but septenary cosmic energy I think that is more ray. Ah, there is an earlier cite in this volume that deals with it, page 26 might clear it up. Page … 26, 27, 28 or so: “Proposition One—Every ray life is an expression of a solar life ...” Now we are looking for septenary cosmic energy. We have energy and we have cosmic prana and then we have solar energy. So, “Proposition Two—Each one of the ray lives is the recipient and the custodian of energies coming from The seven solar systems and The twelve constellations.”
These are the major constellations.
Alpha: Yeah. But the seven solar systems, this could be septenary cosmic energy, this could relate to seven constellations of seven solar systems, couldn’t it? … Because after all, remember these Hierarchies are just planetary as we have been saying. So, a solar system is already a rather large source for them isn’t it?
… Our solar system also works through one particular planet, it works through one particular planet. Each solar system of the seven works through one particular planet in our solar system including our own solar system. Like there is a special planet which is most connected with our solar system and I’ll bet it is Jupiter.
Our subject is the seven rays and their relationship to the zodiacal constellations or the interaction of the seven great lives which inform our solar system with the twelve constellations which compose our zodiac. See, that is just the ray lives, that is all.
OK but, back to 41. Each Hierarchy manifests a triple energy. Now earlier it said that it manifested seven fold energy, right? ... page 38: “Each of these groups of beings is likewise septenary in nature …” But, coming back to page 41. “Each Hierarchy manifests a triple energy or an aspect of each of the above.” Now what does that mean? … In other words, the Hierarchy represents a triple energy because it is one from each one of these, but the aspects could be sevenfold, couldn’t they? One for each Hierarchy.
Gamma: I think when he says ‘manifests’ he uses something greater in the system of three and the other one he uses manifest in the system of seven.
Alpha: Well I don’t think we can solve this. The point is, if you choose one from each of these: “Each Hierarchy manifests a triple energy or an aspect of each of the above, and that necessitates a ninefold differentiation, for the two first are triple, as is the third.”
Beta: It automatically becomes three fires.
Alpha: … there are three aspects to cosmic septenary energy; septenary cosmic energy is already septenary.
Delta: The triples refer to the twenty-one, the whole system of the seven triples [making] twenty-one. And there is a list somewhere where it has the three aspects of each ray.
Beta: Oh yeah. The nine comes before the seven. The nine comes because it is the three at the top, ah three three’s at the top of each set of seven. The last one , the three fires are three all by itself. But those are three because they are already top. Now you think this is related …
Delta: I think it is analogous to 1222 and 1223 in Cosmic Fire. The ray methods of activity in there with three for each ray, making twenty-one.
Beta: Yeah. How does he explain 3 x 7; how does he explain, or sub-divide, the principle for the division of 3? He says studying the 21 vibrations with the basic vibrations, 22. [Continues with quoting 1221 Cosmic Fire]: “We might, therefore, take the seven Rays and give the names for the three ways in which the groups on any particular ray interact with ...” See, we are just dealing with the first three rays.
Alpha: It is the same as you said before. Every ray is triple. There is the spirit aspect, the psychic aspect, and the objective aspect. Every one of these seven is a triple.
Beta: But these aren’t all rays, only one of these are rays.
Alpha: What about how there is seven cosmic pranas.
Beta: Ummm. I guess I find this difficult. I need to sit down and think about it again. This is the sort of question; I have to read and invoke ten times and then it is there.
Alpha: Yeah. It is difficult. This is more than I can handle right now. But I do think that we could address ourselves to this next question which is germane for human evolution. OK? Cosmic Fire 1199:
“It is the rejection of the Triadal Lives by units in the fourth Hierarchy, that of the human Monads, which precipitates a man eventually into the eighth sphere. He refuses to become a Christ, a Saviour and remains self-centred.”
This is a tremendous key to the meaning of the eighth Hierarchy.
Beta: And what it is depicting here we know is the division between the mental unit and the causal body.
Alpha: ... Or, the mental unit and the Triad. … Yes. OK. You must assume that the causal body is just a shroud of the soul like it is often said. And let’s assume that the causal body content is partially absorbed in the mental unit the way it is for the antahkarana projection, and partially absorbed in the Triad, and eventually the content of the causal body is somehow essentialised, yes. And it is what’s really behind the causal body. The Triad is within the causal body; the Triad is the real thing and the causal body is just the shroud of the Triad.
So, basically we are told here that if we somehow reject our own spiritual triad we are rejecting the Christ aspect within ourselves and we precipitate ourselves into the eighth sphere.
Beta: We are also rejecting the source of our life within the planetary constitution, and solar constitution. … If you reject the source of your own life then, you fall into madness, into the eighth sphere … where the black magicians who refuse to mend their ways, finally by the violence of their activities, separate their lower principles from the higher. It has been expressed in different ways.
Alpha: So. And, again, this is funny kind of judgement day scenario here in terms of rejecting the triad. But, elsewhere, what initiation do you have the choice of rejecting a triad or not? … I would say third, yes, because he says a black magician could become an initiate of the first two degrees. … Obviously he has not had to make the choice about the triad. … Yeah.
So, basically what this means is that the third degree, hence the third Creative Hierarchy, there is a choice about the triads. There is also some sort of choice about the solar lives. I guess what I am driving at is what is the relationship between the solar angels and the triads?
Beta: This suggests to me the Manasadevas ... [deleted discussion on variation of names.]
Alpha: OK well, it is the lowest aspect. In other words the third aspect of the solar pitris.
Delta: And what are the fourth Creative Hierarchy, just below the Triads. … So we have precipitated ourselves out of that. So we are the solar ...
Alpha: Not necessarily. You see you can’t say you have precipitated yourself out of the hierarchy above. …
My enquiry is simply this. At the third initiation a man comes into a fused state with the solar angel ... (I am not being technical about the word solar angel.) OK, at the third initiation he also has the opportunity to differentiate himself from black magician, which means that he accepts the triadal lives. Then my question was simply this, is there any difference between the solar angels and the triadal lives?
Delta: The solar angels are in contact with manifestation. The solar lives only implicitly have it through the solar angels.
Alpha: Well this is interesting, you have a point here. He says that these triadal lives can go no lower than, what … the logoic etheric body.
Beta: How do you understand the ring-pass-not. The ring-pass-not is between the living principles and the dense body, right?
Alpha: Yeah. I understand the ring-pass-not as the many planes, as the life of the atomic plane between the atomic plane of the manasic plane and the lowest of the buddhic subplanes.
Beta: You don’t think that it includes the ethers of the mental plane?
Alpha: But show me where the reference where it said he can go no lower than ...
Beta: ... top of 41: “They cannot pass out of the logoic etheric body into the dense physical vehicle.”
Alpha: Now that is very simple, and we showed it before; that is the buddhic plane, the logoic etheric body and everything below that. However, the planetary logoic etheric body could include the higher subplanes of the mental plane.
Beta: Because it is the division between arupa and rupa. Formless and formed. And that is where the causal body is anchored.
Alpha: Right. And that is the need for the bridge to go between planetary and solar ... They are the bridge, the solar angels; they allow man, instead of becoming planetary, to become solar. That is the whole thing. Those three higher subplanes are planetary ethers but they are solar dense, so if you can transit the solar dense you can get into solar life, out of planetary life, and that is what the solar angels allow us to do.
So you have a point because there are the solar angels, (or whatever you want to call them, I don’t know all the differentiations) and they can give their substance upon the higher mental plane and they can pass into the logoic dense body, apparently, the higher three subplanes. But these lives cannot. Is that correct?
Beta: Right. Actually, but I have been assuming the solar lords are very closely related to the Manasadevas, which are the highest form of Agnishvattas, they have a direct sort of interface relationship with the kumaras who would be … without transition somehow. I have to sort that out.
Alpha: OK. But, Agnishvattas apparently, even Manasadevas are connected with the triads.
Delta: Well the triads are a higher correspondence of atma-buddhi-manas.
Beta: ... yeah solar ...
Alpha: Yeah. There is a problem because there is no manas possible. Manas is in the logoic dense body. … Maybe they cannot pass lower. Maybe their spirit influence can ...
Beta: I seem to think the Vishnu aspect comes down to the third subplane of the mental.
Alpha: We just looked at it in terms of vibration, light, sound and colour and we saw that the solar logos went no lower than the buddhic plane. … It started in terms of vibration at the logoic. … And its lowest, which is color, which is the number four (which is manifestation) is no lower than our Buddhic plane.
Delta: But they are on the planetary mental body; the triads form part of the planetary mental body so therefore they have a manasic element.
Alpha: The triads do but not The Triads. Our spiritual triads definitely have a manasic part to them. But these lives which are the power of the triads apparently cannot descend below the logoic etheric plane.
Beta: We know cosmic buddhi is in all the permanent atoms.
Gamma: We have again this difference between The Triad, which is a vehicle, and the lives which emanate …
Alpha: Yes that is right, the prototypes of the monads are not the monads but their field of expression is the monad. So we are going back into the second Hierarchy as it relates to our fourth. Now these Triads are somehow the life of our spiritual triads and yet while they animate them ...
Beta: Oh god. Hierarchies three, four and five basically correspond to the three: Manasadevas, Agnishvattas and the Manasaputras. The human personality would be the result of the work of the Manasaputras coming from a previous cycle, and they provide a form for them to evolve. The Agnishvattas provide the same for the Human Hierarchy. The Triads provide the same for the Human Hierarchy, but from the triadic level. Ah.
Delta: What about the idea that once you are at the very bottom of the buddhic plane you are intentionally touching the manasic plane, just as visa versa if you at the very upmost level of the manasic you are touching the buddhic.
Alpha: Well we have run into an interesting thing today about how the jewel was at the juncture of manas and buddhi. So you may be touching it all right.
Beta: Do we have a human correspondence, planetary correspondence and a solar correspondence? … Maybe I should refer to them like ... the solar logos somehow during manifestation can send solar pitris down into the lower planes into the dense physical, and they do it through the planetary constitution to a certain extent when the ego flash forth as a result of ... the juncture of the planetary etheric and dense. They must be solar logoic.
Alpha: Well the point is, What are the triadal lives? I used to think that they were possibly solar angels. However, if the solar angel can penetrate the manasic plane and these lives cannot then apparently they cannot be solar angels.
Beta: Here. Cosmic Fire: middle of 616: “They are that which produces concretion and that which gives form to the abstract.” The Ah-hi. The building devas who are the Ah-hi or Universal Mind.
“The terms rupa and arupa devas are relative, for the formless levels and the formless lives are only so from the standpoint of man in the three worlds; the formless lives are those which are functioning in and through the etheric body of the Logos, formed of the matter of the four higher planes of the system. From this point of view the mental plane provides an interesting consideration: its three higher subplanes are positive, and centralise the positive force of the plane. This focussing of the positive affects the negative substance of the four lower planes and brings about likewise:”
(end of tape)
a. The formation of force centres on the causal levels, those force centres being egoic groups in their various divisions.
b. The concretion of substance, or the building of the dense physical body of the Logos.
On the physical plane of the solar system an analogous process can be seen taking place as regards the physical body of man, or his concrete manifestation. In his case, the fourth subplane is the focal point of positive force. On that plane are located the etheric centres of man, which have, in the evolutionary process and in the work of force direction, a relationship to his physical body similar to the relationship which groups of Egos on the mental plane have to the dense physical body of the Logos. This is a profound occult hint”
In the words ‘prana and the etheric body’ (or life force and form) we have the key to the mystery of the solar and lunar pitris, and a hint as to the place of the physical body in the scheme of things.
The solar Pitris and devas find their force expression most adequately through man, with all that is included in that term. They are the source of his self-consciousness, and it is their action upon the negative aspect which produces the human Ego (on a large scale, viewing them in their totality as cosmic force); it is their action upon the negative or mother aspect which, on cosmic levels, produces that Self-conscious Unity, a solar Logos, functioning through His physical vehicle.”
Alpha: The higher form of solar pitris. [... continuing the above quote]:
“From the Christian standpoint, the greater Builders are the Holy Spirit, or force overshadowing and fecundating matter, whilst the negative or lesser Builders correspond to the Virgin Mary.”
Goodness! So the Virgin Mary is like the third Creative Hierarchy and the greater builders, the Holy Spirit, is the second Creative Hierarchy. Well. Good Lord.
Delta: At some point, maybe we could close this and go on to rays and hierarchies. Is that is agreeable?
Alpha: Yeah. The question that remains in my mind is what order of lives are these triads that a rejection of them should cause the selfishness and the precipitation of the man into lower matter? From another point of view, maybe the triads stimulate that kind of life which is sort of the higher anchor for the man. He never makes it across the bridge if he rejects the triad; he never builds the antahkarana, he never returns to his source
Delta: It is part of the upper three and we are the part of the lower four.
Alpha: Yeah. So, it looks to me like these triads have their monads on a higher plane altogether, and they are the force which stimulates our spiritual triad. That the second group of builders, the greater builders, stimulate the manifestation of our monad upon the second plane. Basically, they sustain our higher nature even though they, as monads, are not that higher nature. We are simply in our highest aspects an expression of their fourth. I don’t think for a minute though that they can get through the etheric barrier. And I think that is what is unique about the solar angels, somehow, even though they are high beings they make the sacrifice of going into the logoic dense body, and that they are somehow bridges.
And I would like to know very much what is the relationship ... ahh … the relationship between the fifth Creative Hierarchy and the third Creative Hierarchy is pretty much the relationship between the solar angels and the triads. I would like to know the relationship between the solar angels (whether they are pitris or whatever) and the triads.
Beta: Yeah. There are two sections on the ninefold vibration. And one is involved in ninefold vibration coming down to create the causal bodies. And then the other is the ninefold response that creates the substance of the causal bodies and then I think this relates to the ninefold energies … that they were speaking of there.
Alpha: Are you saying that the triads are responsible for inducing response within the higher mental plane and that the solar devas are in some way responsible for ... coordinating that? Providing substance of their own vehicles?
Beta: Right, out of their own vehicles. And, they provide the tiers on one level, the petals on another, and the permanent atoms on the bottom. By the way, (I just found a quote), the permanent atoms are not the lunar pitris, they are intermediaries between the solar and lunar pitris on each plane, because they are the seventh principle on each plane. So, they could be extracted up to the manasic permanent atoms, perhaps.
Delta: Can I throw something out with regard to the fifth ray and third ray which I think is analogous. I don’t quite understand, but I think it bears directly on this conversation. Pages 704 through 705 Cosmic Fire. You were saying, what is the relationship between the fifth Creative and the third. So it starts from “The fifth principle of manas is embodied in the five Kumaras ...” on 704, then:
“As the student of occultism knows, the Lord of the fifth Ray holds that place in the Septenary enumeration, but under the fivefold classification, he holds the third or middle place. “
Then, in other words, we start with the third ray and go down. Then it goes on to 705:
“This should be pondered on, and His close connection therefore, as a transmitter of force within the Moon chain, the third chain, in connection with the third kingdom, the animal, and with the third round, must be borne in mind. One symbol that may be found in the archaic records in lieu of His Name or description is an inverted five-pointed star, with the luminous Triangle at the centre. It will be noted that the points involved in this symbol number eight.”
Alpha: Yeah. You are absolutely right. This is germane.
Delta: ... and we had that eight back on page 40; that is the eighth sphere.
“... a picture of that peculiar state of consciousness brought about when the mind is seen to be the slayer of the Real. The secret of planetary avitchi 35 is hidden here ... just as the third major scheme can be viewed as systemic avitchi, and the moon at one time held an analogous position in connection with our scheme. This must be interpreted in terms of consciousness, and not of locality.”
Alpha: The third major scheme is Saturn. … which you know the spot that appeared on Saturn. There is probably an exoteric Saturn here.
Beta: So, actually these culprits, as DK said explicitly somewhere, their evolution is suspended for a Mahamanvantara, in avitchi.
[deleted some pondering on what level of mahamanvantara.]
Alpha: Now I just want to say one thing that strikes me about its psychological development. The relationship between the third Hierarchy and the fifth is a relationship between the causal body and the triad at the time of building the antahkarana.
It is very interesting how occultism among disciples is divided between those who are attempting to contact the soul and be informed by the love energy of the soul, and soul-infused, and those who are attempting to bypass the soul while somehow absorbing its quality and enter the triad.
It seems to me that right there in that very germane type of occult approach we are dealing with two Hierarchies, namely the fifth, and the third. And that as we become soul infused we are dealing with the fifth. As we attempt to bypass the soul while still staying in relationship to it we are relating to the third Hierarchy, or at least its influence within our own triad. … One is a matter of will and the other is a matter of love.
Delta: One aside, this symbol of the five pointed star with the triangle in the centre, mentioned on page 705 Cosmic Fire, (you might want to write this in your book), that symbol is repeated in page 320 of Esoteric Astrology, with regard to the watery triangle: “One of the symbols of an initiate of a certain degree is that of the five-pointed star with a triangle in the centre.”
Alpha: Now, that’s important. I think that what you have there is the triad and, gosh you have the relationship of the two hierarchies. If you have the triangle and the five pointed star you have the relationship between the third and the fifth hierarchy. Which is interesting, it sums to eight, as well.
Beta: The eight of the Christ and the eight of avitchi.
Delta: Wait a second. The third Hierarchy has under comments (even though it is the atmic plane) it says water. And this symbols of the five, [as we were] just talking about the water signs in astrology. Again there is some link there I think.
Alpha: I was just trying to make it as practical as possible in the sense that we as meditators may be dealing with these Hierarchies. When we say to ourselves ...
Delta: Yeah. We are the divine connection.
Alpha: Yeah. Exactly, we are the divine connection and it is the difference between love and will. To connect with the third Hierarchy, to connect with atma which is spiritual will, to connect with the fifth Hierarchy, these are the burning sons of love, ‘hearts of fiery love’, and right there is the difference, a juncture in modern day occultism that deals with these two hierarchies right now.
Beta: And we are like electricity ... One is the anode and one is the cathode.
Delta: Lets say the third is the anode and the fifth is the cathode. And we are the fourth which is the electricity which is flowing between the two.
Beta: And looking at three, four, five Creative Hierarchies, the fifth Hierarchy is a five pointed star and is associated with animal nature ... the work of perhaps Venus or someone else in the previous cycle to get the human animal nature co-ordinated. But in the fourth Creative Hierarchy, what is the five pointed symbol, best expressed by the five planes of the monad?
Alpha: Do we have to have a five pointed star?
Beta: Just curious; I think that that is their higher reflection. You would have both five pointed stars.
Alpha: Let me ask you something. What if you divide this hierarchy into the upright pentagram and the inverted pentagram? Cause this is a dual hierarchy. … The fifth is a dual Hierarchy. What if you divide the top part of it into the upright and the bottom into the inverted pentagram? And one is personality, and the other is the substance of the solar life.
And right there is the drama as to which way a man will go. And it tends the ill fated number thirteen, etc. (Page 45, wields the dual aspects of manas, one in the three worlds and one which makes itself felt in higher spheres.) You see, it is important because that would explain the two types of pentagrams, one type diving the life downward into matter, the other type raising it up, you see.
Beta: Necessarily at an early stage driving it down into matter, for the purpose of driving it up later.
Alpha: And on page 41 about the number 13. This hierarchy:
“… is a dual one, and it is this which has led to some confusion and is the occult significance behind the ill-omened number thirteen. They are the ‘Seekers of satisfaction’ and the cause of the second fall into generation, the fact behind the taking of a lower nature by the Ego.”
If you add the two pentagrams together you get the number of the hierarchy which is ten.
Delta: Ah again there is some association, page 426 in Esoteric Astrology. Number 2: “Five signs related to the unfoldment, in time and space, of the Human Hierarchy.” So first of all we have five signs: three of the five signs are the water signs. And so we have the triangle within the five that way, because three of them are water signs and there are five signs, and the two remaining signs are Leo, the fifth sign, and Capricorn, the tenth sign.
Alpha: Well that is interesting. And so Capricorn is not only ten, it is five, two five’s. It is the ruler of the fifth Hierarchy. Yeah so there is a hint there.
OK I’ll tell you what, before we get too embroiled, see if we can straighten out this business of the ray and the hierarchy.