Fellowship of Cosmic Fire  :  Meeting of May 22, 1995

The names of the five participants have been substituted; This version is freely edited to maintain essence and flow of concepts over preservation of verbatim dialog, by Vicktorya in June 2004

 

 

Alpha:   We  have before us a number of questions to discuss particularly in relation to Cosmic Fire, and as Cosmic Fire relates to the other Bailey books and other theosophical writings.  We have a few procedures to review, and then we can get into the first considerations immediately. 

Point #1:  We are going to attempt to utilise triadally-inspired and soul-infused group mind.  All group members should have the main test of our inquiry open before them, which we do, and ancillary helpful texts handy.  We should be ready to exchange well chosen words and to access the books relatively quickly for the purposes of citing supportive or contradictory references.  All this sounds very formal but I know how it goes once we start. 

Point #2:  As we address ourselves to questions it may frequently be necessary to stop to define our terms.  Let us do so carefully, as carefully as we possibly can, seeking some degree of consensus on these questions even though exceptions can always be found.  Throughout our enquiry there should be an attempt to gather and note the important references necessary for clarity upon the question or subject under consideration. 

Point #3:  The group members are committed to an intuitively-inspired manasic quest, what we may refer to as shamelessly manasic!  Successful group work will contribute to the opening of the synthesis petal for manas in the egoic lotus.  That is what we are hoping ... some opening the synthesis petal for love as inclusive reason may be expected if the group achieves the necessary depth.  The group is principally manasic and functions along the lines of the third and fifth rays, the second ray considered as pervading and substanding,  for it is the ray of DK who authored our principle texts including (in no small measure) the Secret Doctrine.

Point #4:  And finally, the group’s purpose is, initially, to create within ourselves and within the group as close an approximation to the comprehensive knowledge, understanding and vision which made the writing of the Treatise on Cosmic Fire  and Esoteric Astrology possible.  To the degree that it is possible and permitted to us,  the intent to arduous study at as high a point of tension as we can sustain ...to enter into the master mind of Master DK  (a humble statement).

 

Those are the ideas that launch our effort.  And as we speak we should speak as clearly as possible as our work is being tape recorded for our own reference and for the reference of those few who may join us at future sessions.  We are all pretty much in agreement with this approach. 

We are here because we love the study of Cosmic Fire and want as complete a point of view, or multiple points of view,  as possible.  We are interested in entering in depth into the great science of relations, which, in my opinion, includes all the other sciences: astrology, numerology, and any others … it is all ‘how it fits together’. 

 

Let us simply look at the first question which is a background question and has to do with creating the large map.  Now we are not going to draw that map out now;  one day we will attempt to draw out the map.  But right now we are simply filling in the items that will be found upon the map. 

The first point that can engage us is:  “What is the nature of the large map which we must create to orient ourselves to cosmos as A Treatise on Cosmic Fire describes cosmos? (This is not meant to be exclusive; there are many other points that can be brought in.)

·       Which planes and subplanes should be included in this map? 

·       What is a dimension, and what is a plane? 

·       How many dimensions of cosmos are there?  Shall we use a system of seven or of ten? Why? 

·       Are there any such things as super-cosmic planes? 

·       Are there any geometrical symbols which will help us find the nature and relationship of the planes ...for instance: the sphere, the ovoid, the tetraktys, tetrahedron, the cube, the octahedron, dodecahedron, isosahedron, triangle, point-within-a-triangle, square, pentagram, seal of Solomon, seven pointed star, four-triangles-in-one, etc.

·       Can we say anything about the keys, notes, key measures, colours, symbology, etc. of the various planes and subplanes upon which we are focusing. 

  

I suggest we just begin with some thoughts about ‘the map’, and if I may just ask us to give our impressions on “what is a plane”?  What do we actually think a plane is? 

Beta:   The spirilla in one of the permanent atoms in the solar permanent atom, or planetary permanent atom.  Probably the solar. 

Alpha:   Yes, right, from Cosmic Fire a plane is a spirilla, one or the seven (or possibly ten) spirillae in the permanent atom of the solar logos. 

Delta:      A dimension of consciousness, if I understand the spirillae correctly during each round until the spirillae is developed. So there is probably a correspondence between the focus on a specific plane and the specific round we are in. 

Beta:   I have a major question between solar and planetary logoi on the systemic level, on the physical body level, in terms of the planes that we call the solar planes, the cosmic planes. … What you said, if it unfolds in a round, it is either a collapsed solar system unfolding in just a minuscule planetary round or the spirillae (as far as we are concerned) are really planetary.  …

Alpha:   … We have to define the nature of the beings and their habitats upon the various planes.  And then that question will naturally unfold.  A plane has sometimes been called a state of consciousness.  The question is should a plane be considered a condition of Prakriti? Should it be considered a vibratory condition of prakriti? 

Delta:  Well, if we are going to be discussing the cosmic physical plane, certainly, everything on the cosmic physical plane should be by definition Prakriti ...

Beta:   I think actually that Bailey’s cosmic planes are the prakritic, Blavatsky’s prakritic ...

Alpha:   Are you saying Bailey’s cosmic planes are above the solar systemic planes?  In other words, the cosmic physical plane has above it a number of other cosmic planes.  Are you saying that those are Bailey’s cosmic planes?

Beta:   Yeah.  Those are Bailey’s cosmic planes.  All seven planes.

Alpha:   All seven cosmic planes?

Beta:   Physical (the seven cosmic physical subplanes underneath) are identical with Blavatsky’s prakritic planes.

Gamma:   This is the this problem that prakritic is a third principle, isn’t it? And it has been equalled to consciousness.  The planes are consciousness, Blavatsky says so.

Alpha:   Is a plane really consciousness, or is consciousness operative with respect to the condition of the plane?

Beta:   The planes are related to the permanent atom in the causal body.

Gamma:   So this is a ‘third’ principle. 

Alpha:   Yes, it is a third principle; we are dealing with three principles.  But it seems to me that the universal soul is One, and the condition of prakriti determines the extent of sensitivity of the universal soul.  In other words, you can have an aspect of universal soul captured (as it were) by a certain level of prakriti, and it is less extensive in its sensitivity than the next higher level that is less confined, and what determined the extent of the confinement is the vibratory level of the prakriti.  Does that seem reasonable?

Beta:   Well, it makes consciousness either able to manifest or not according to the karma which operates on that third plane.

Delta: So to recapitulate, if I understand this, we are saying that planes are more the third aspect of deity and deal with more ‘prakriti’ and consciousness ‘plays’ upon this?

Gamma:   Although Blavatsky said that she [vsk sic?] made this equality that plays with the consciousness. 

Beta:   It depends on the Entity concerned.  It has to be qualified by an Entity on some plane.  Planes and entities are inter-related and entities have three principles: the life, consciousness, and form.

Delta: Because hopefully later on we will be discussing which signs of the Zodiac rule which planes, and which rays rule which planes, so that could change over time and imply that a plane is a certain matrix or prakriti, in that there are different ...

Gamma:  Yeah, I think we are going too far. We should try to see the relation between the consciousness and the plane.  They don’t seem to be the same; however, can one exist without the other?

Alpha:  I think that the minute you have any form of relationship, which means a cosmos, that at every point within it you have what is equivalent to the plane, the consciousness and the life.  You have the triangle no matter what.  At any point from the lowest unit of life to the greatest, those three have to co-exist and the only time they cease to co-exist is in the universal pralaya.  See, the very moment that you have a subject and an object you have the relationship between.  So basically you have the archetypes of the plane of consciousness and of life. 

Now, one point almost escaped us, or we should emphasise it.  That prakriti, which would be like a specialisation of mulaprakriti for the universe, exists on all the cosmic planes.  In other words, we have a way of thinking only of the cosmic physical plane in terms of matter.  But this might be a mistake.

Delta: Something ‘substands’ each plane.

Beta:   Bailey says there were a couple of solar systems that came before the third, and Blavatsky, that there were elemental kingdoms below our seven kingdoms, or ‘her’ four kingdoms, or five.

Alpha:   Yes.

Epsilon:  Do you make a difference between matter and substance?

Alpha:   I think there is in a way, to me, anyway. I’ll say that substance is usually considered to be that which ‘substands’.  So usually substance is a kind of matter, but in context one refers to it as ‘that which underlies and gives form and organisation’ to what we are considering matter.  So in a way the etheric body ‘substands’ matter, what we normally call dense physical matter, but there has to be that which ‘substands’ the etheric body and to which it itself would be substance.  So as you go deeper and deeper the thing that substands the material level on any level is called ‘substance’. 

Epsilon:  I think in Cosmic Fire it is said that space and substance are synonymous.  And I would like to relate that sentence with prakriti and matter.

Alpha:   Space is mulaprakriti (when specialised); universal prakriti is matter.  Space and matter are the same thing in a way.  You don’t even have space until Parabrahman had made its first change.  What I am saying is that space requires consciousness.  The nameless thing is not space, not consciousness, none of those things. Blavatsky deals with that, but the minute you have space you have the condition of objectivity.  And the first object is Mulaprakriti.

Beta:   Bailey says ‘space is an entity’.  And she further say the entity is named Yajnan, or the great sacrifice. 

Delta: There’s a footnote somewhere in Cosmic Fire ....

Alpha:  See, the point is about ‘entity’, to go back to the fundamental, that if we can call The One and Only, Be-ness. We can call that an entity if we choose – because the mind cannot do anything other but to ‘posit’.  You see, if the mind is active it makes an assertion and that assertion is a ‘positing’ and that ‘positing’ is a limitation upon whatever IT really is.  Nevertheless, there is one universal entity which is a derivative of the no-name.  And that could be called space, if you want to call it space.

Beta:   The first logos.

Alpha:   Yeah, the universal logos I sometimes call IT.  If we call it the first logos then we get into a problem with the unmanifested logos compared with the first, the second, the third … we get into logo-mania, because there are several different systems of deriving the functions of the logoi.  Let’s put it like this, that there are several different meanings of the word space, and one of the meanings that fits with prakriti is to consider it the universal object as observed by the universal subject.  In other words, somehow the subject—object distinction appears in Parabrahman and we don’t know how it appears but it appears (because it didn’t exist during the universal pralaya).  And when it appears you have an infinite subject perceiving an infinite object.  And that infinite object is ‘space’.  Then you get a localisation of that infinite object, and it turns out to be ‘universal’ space.  Not, infinite space anymore, but ‘universal’ space, and that is ‘bounded prakriti’. 

Beta:   It becomes the circle ... or the circle with the dot .... but that is another topic.

Alpha:   It becomes the circle, yes, in a way, but the ‘dot’ within it has to do somehow with the interaction of the infinite subject with the infinite object and ‘then’ comes the circle, and then ‘the dot’ is the potency within this bounded prakriti which is going to create a universe.

Delta: Does anyone want any quotes on Yagna from Cosmic Fire … pages 81 and 880.  … Basically he says everything is Vishnu, and the creation of a Solar System, the evolution, preservation, and destruction is therefore one vast process called Yagna which takes place in the body of Yagna Purusha or the physical body of nature.

Beta:   That’s ‘space’ subject.

Delta:      “Humanity taken collectively is the heart and brain of this Purusha and therefore all the karma generated by humanity, physical, mental, or spiritual, determines mainly the character of this Yagnic process. Sri Krishna therefore calls the process the Yagnic life that he has been giving out to Arjuna as Yoga (1st Sloka 4th Chr). ). In fact, Yoga and Yagna are very closely allied and even inseparable, though at the present day people seem to disconnect the two. Yoga derived from the root Yuj to join means an act of joining. Now as the heart is the great centre in man, likewise the Yogi of the heart keeps his central position in the universe and hence his individuality. The individuality or the Higher Manas being the pivot of the human constitution or the centre on which two hemispheres of higher and lower existence turn as I have already said, the Yogi of the heart has a heavenly dome above and earthly abyss below and his yoga becomes twofold as a consequence. He joins himself on to the thing above in dhyana and the thing below in action. The word yagna derived from the root Yaj–to serve also means a twofold service, service done to the thing above through service done unto its expression the thing below.” –Some Thoughts on the Gita, pp. 18, 134. 

And then on 880 is a mention of the four noble truths and one is Yajna Vidya. The performance of religious rites in order to produce certain results.  Ceremonial magic. It is concerned with Sound, therefore with the Akasha or the ether of space. The “yajna” is the invisible Deity who pervades space.”

Alpha:  OK.

Gamma:   Can I make my little scientific thing here.  I am writing  … on what he calls etherous space.  And I think that it is similar to the space we are talking about.  And here let me read you something here about how clairvoyantly it is seen. These are notes which are taken in the Occult History by Leadbeater (a chapter on the ethers of space, in the appendix pages 1 and 2).  He calls the substance healing space ‘coilon’.  What Mulaprakriti or mother matter is to all universes ‘coilon’ is to our particular universe.  This is what you call universal space.  … there exists a … spiritual fluid … the first foundation of the solar system.  Since this substance is different than ours one believes that it is empty space.  HPB says that there is not one’s finger breadth of void space in the whole boundless universe.  To the clairvoyant this ‘coilon’ appears to be homogeneous.  It is out of proportion denser than any other substance known.  Infinitely denser.  So much denser that it seems to belong to another type, another order, of density.  We might expect matter to be  densification of this ‘coilon’.  It is nothing of its kind; matter is the absence of ‘coilon’.  And this is the story of the Fohat digging holes in space.

Alpha:  ... digging holes in space ... the bubbles in the ‘coilon’ ... yes.

Gamma:   And this is very interesting to see.  This is some of the theories of quantum mechanics in that space.    ... It is filled with energy.  Energy which is amazing.  He would say that a cubic centimetre of this space would contain more energy than the whole universe.  ... that is the substance side of the universe.

Beta:   We are speaking on the universal plane and I’m not sure I am bringing this down into a circumscribed universe but there is a question of the distinction between matter and substance.  Matter being ‘refuse’ from a previous cycle. 

Alpha:   What do you do with ...  That is fine intra-universe.  But what do you do after universal pralaya? 

Beta:   This is a big question.  I don’t understand that because it ties in with the idea of Fohat digging holes through space.  What is the ... I think it is intra-universe.

Alpha:   ... “intra-universal” ...

Gamma:   In one of those Sloka he says that matter is not destroyed.  She says so.  In what sense does she say so?

Alpha:  It must be between lesser systems, such as a solar system, or maybe even galactic systems.  There is always a refuse after the completion of the project of a particular system, like a solar system.  And that refuse is regathered by the next entity, which may be the reincarnation of the one that left the refuse to re-work and subject it to a new principle.  But that takes place only inside of our universe. 

Beta:   If you see the subject—object dichotomy as being reabsorbed in some absorptive samadhi.  But that would be pralaya that resulted from consciousness only.  It wouldn’t necessarily involve the physical plane.  You still have the entities in this, perhaps, in the sense I think I am approaching it from the intra universal.

Alpha:   Let me just share a thought on the universal pralaya.  If all subject—object dichotomy has to be destroyed within the universal pralaya, as witness the kind of condition that HPB talks about in the beginning of the Secret Doctrine.  It is impossible to have any ‘thing’, whatever, left over.  In other words, we have to approach the state of complete homogeneity in the universal pralaya, which is an argument for universal salvation, in a way.  You know, its an argument for the idea that no matter how much amiss an entity may go during the universe that they have to be reduced to homogeneity by the end of it.

Gamma:   … Infinite absorption.

Alpha:   Infinite absorption with nothing remaining.  And you know not to give too much into this because it is a little bit off the subject of the planes, but it becomes impossible even to consider a succession of universes karmically related.  The succession of universes cannot be considered to be improving, evolutionary, for the reason that an infinite series of universes implies an infinitely evolved universe at present, which clearly is a contradiction to the fact.  So what I am trying to say is that each universe relates to itself alone and is one particular in the fount of all possibility.  And that fount will endlessly express and has been endlessly expressing.  It seems to me that there is no direct relation from one universe to the next unlike our situation right in the middle, where there is refuse from the uncompleted task of the present logos.  And he goes onto his next reincarnation and recaptures the refuse and attempts to rework it. 

Beta:   Even if you have universal pralaya we can only use metaphors for universal pralaya if we are talking in terms of ultimates.  But if we use the idea of the solar system, or the seven chakras of the solar system burning up and it consuming its systemic nature, well that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is done that astrally or mentally, as a solar system.

Alpha:   In the hundred years of Brahma it probably does.

Beta:   Exactly, in larger cycles.  So in all of these pralayas there are always, even a universal pralaya sometimes seems to me  to be ‘local’. 

Alpha:   Yeah, by definition it would have to be.  In other words you define it as that which is non local.

Beta:   It’s true, as far as we are concerned it is the limit.

Alpha:  In other words.  If we forget about our solar system and we try to wrap our minds around all that could ever possibly happen anywhere, we define that as the universe.  And people say ‘but there are other universes’.  Then you have to say but that is a subset of the main one.  But not to get too far off the subject ...

Beta:   That should be bringing it back a bit.  It is the idea of consciousness and the question of whether the planes of prakriti are consciousness.  Well they are in that – the entity above incarnating through the entity below – the systemic entity below is always consciousness, is given the name of entity.  It is always a subjective life incarnating through the lower vehicle, and that can happen on a plane; through seven planes; or cosmically, it can happen in any number of ways.  The entity incarnating through the vehicle which goes into pralaya is always the consciousness principle.  So in a sense it is like devas and pitris.  They’re round of the core energy in force, and force is always the shell of energy in form.  Force in each form are always the shell energy, which is that which is contained by the form or which mobilises the form.  So I think the same must be true for consciousness.

Alpha:  OK, so we are trying to clarify the relationship between the second aspect and the third aspect. What we are asking in the first question is how extensive is the third aspect?  ...  Blavatsky dealt only, as far as I can see in most of her work, with the cosmic physical plane, or with prakriti at a certain vibratory level.  There are certain charts here that are theosophical charts from the late nineteenth century which include other cosmic planes.  But as far as I remember he said very little about the cosmic astral, hardly at all about the cosmic mental plane.  But one thing she did do is in the Secret Doctrine she began at a point which was above any of these cosmic planes.  She began at the point of the origin of the universe which was sort of pre-cosmic and then she leapt all the way down to the cosmic physical plane and DK with his psychological version of the Secret Doctrine came and filled in the spaces in between.  More so.   Like a second ray presentation. 

Beta:   It’s true.  This is (having a vested interest here, in bridging Blavatsky and Bailey) the prakritic planes Blavatsky dealt with to a certain extent in their esoteric schools.  And she did in the Secret Doctrine by calling the cosmic planes above Bailey’s cosmic planes, or the prakritic planes, the kosmic planes (with a K).  But she uses kosmic planes with ‘k’ and cosmic with ‘c’ as well.  So I am sure that Bailey took that clue and started using the cosmic planes as a substitute for prakritic planes.  If somehow we could maintain that continuity of continuing with terminology it would be immensely useful I think in merging the groups.

Alpha:  Let’s get our terminology straight.  There are two kinds of planes that are ...  Three is what we call the solar planes, equivalent to the systemic planes, which could be considered to be prakritic planes? 

Beta:   ... no, those are below. Those are the seven differentiations, or the pranic differentiations of the first prakritic plane.  Bailey’s seven cosmic planes, distinct, her top-most planes are Blavatsky’s prakritic planes.  Blavatsky has seven more kosmic planes (with a k) above that. … but she only enumerated five though ... interestingly ... (third volume …)

Alpha:   Now wait a minute, this is a huge jump.  We are talking about super cosmic planes. 

Gamma:  What he says is where the difference ‘k’ and ‘c’ lies. 

Alpha:  OK, let’s see if we can define this.  We have solar planes.  (Maybe you can find a reference.)  We have solar planes or systemic planes which consist of our normal physical, astral, mental, buddhic, atmic, monadic logoic.  Those are systemic or solar planes.  And that is the first level of cosmic plane.  Then we have seven cosmic planes. …

Gamma:   No, this is the secret to the physical cosmic plane. 

Beta:   The problem understanding this is that Bailey and Blavatsky enumerate the principles differently.  Blavatsky only went up as far as atma.  And she considered ...   She didn’t have a monadic or a logoic plane.

Alpha:   So there is just five here; there are just five principles.  This is page 435 of the Esoteric Writings of Blavatsky. Now this is interesting:  “These prakritic planes are in fact what is called the first cosmic plane.”  Goodness!  This means in fact that there are super cosmic planes.  OK.  This is our normal solar system and it is seven solar, or seven systemic planes,  two of which, or three of which, are not listed.  Is that correct?

Beta:   Right.

Alpha:   In other words, normally above us we would have atmic and the logoic levels and this would be called the cosmic physical plane, with a ‘c’.

Beta:   Blavatsky collapsed the monadic and logoic into the atmic and she made the atmic the auric on below. The seventh is always depicted as a circle around six planes.  …

Gamma:   Because she took these five planes, because this is where the solar system is supposed to …

Beta:   Exactly.  Solar, planetary, and the Shiva aspect are formed. 

Alpha:  OK, now let’s get the terminology straight. 

Ø       The first prakritic plane is Bailey’s cosmic physical plane. 

Ø       Second prakritic is Bailey’s cosmic astral. 

Ø       Third prakritic is cosmic mental. 

Ø       Then fourth prakritic is cosmic buddhic. 

Ø       Fifth prakritic is cosmic atmic. 

Ø       Sixth prakritic is cosmic monadic. 

Ø       And the auric envelope here is considered the seventh, or the highest prakritic plane.  That is the cosmic logoic plane. 

And now, let’s turn for a second to page 344, Cosmic Fire, for the corresponding map.  This is the cosmic adic plane, which is the same as the cosmic logoic plane, and simply is the highest of the prakritic planes of Blavatsky.  Now, going beyond that, I ask, are there such things as super cosmic planes?  And by that I meant super—‘c’—cosmic.  And our assumption here, then, is that Blavatsky’s kosmic—‘k’ planes are the super cosmic planes. 

Beta:   Right.

Alpha:  And that the first, or the lowest, of the kosmic planes includes all of Bailey’s cosmic planes.  And I assume we would go on above that to the, we could call it the super cosmic astral ... We better call it ... because of what language is with a ‘k’ and a ‘c’, we better call it the supercosmic planes.  Because otherwise we are always going to have to be differentiating cosmic with a ‘c’ ...cosmic with a ‘k’.  So this is the lowest of the super cosmic planes ....

Delta: ... or we would number there.  Put roman numerals for the cosmic planes.

Gamma:   It’s right there. 

Alpha:   And she only goes up to the supercosmic buddhic planes.

Beta:   That’s right.  And if in writing we used the ‘k’ that unifies Blavatsky’s and Bailey’s terminology.  But in speech we say supercosmic with a qualifier at the beginning of the talk.

Alpha:  OK  Now, is it assumed that this would also become seven fold.  That the supercosmic planes would be seven fold.

Beta:   I think it must.  With maybe the reason that we are entering only five rounds, a profoundly high level, there is the question.  This ties in with the mystery of Venus, and why supposedly, according to Blavatsky, all planets have seven rounds, but Bailey says Venus is in its fifth and last [chain].

Alpha:   OK  And one other planet too.

Beta:   This is very important question.  And it is one of the things (... Blavatsky said?) no one will ever talk about.  This is an interesting point that, when DK in his books mentions schemes, and gives references in the Secret Doctrine there is no mention at all to the word planetary scheme.  All there are references to is something of which the masters will never speak; you will never get an initiate to speak about this.  (I remember The emperor Julian revealed the secrets of the Greek initiatory school and had problems because of it.) 

Delta: Venus is in the fifth chain by the way.  I don’t know if that is just a tangential fact, Page 373, fifth chain, fifth globe … And on page 368 it states the Secret Doctrine saying that Venus is in its fifth and last round.

Alpha:  It is a very important statement, Venus is in the fifth chain, the fifth round of the fifth chain.  … The question will come up a bit later whether we are talking about chains—rounds, or scheme—rounds.  And there is one factor that has to be considered ... that Venus received a gift from Earth ... from the Heavenly Man of Earth in its sixth chain as I understand it.  So this touches on the question of the simultaneity of chains.

Beta:   You see, some people who only want to limit themselves to space will not take themselves outside of time and space to speculate, when actually the three solar systems exist in the eternal ‘now’ as far as the consciousness of the solar logos goes.  Presumable humans can take part in planetary or solar consciousness to some extent. And so we have certainly a philosophical or a metaphysical justification for stepping outside of time and space in our thought. 

Alpha:  This is actually a question that really comes up a bit later in this thing because it is getting pretty practical about relationship of different chains and schemes with each other and whether they are sequential, simultaneous or a combination of sequential and simultaneous (all existing at the same time but emphasised sequentially).

Beta:   As far as I can tell, when you leave time and space it’s like talking abut the inner round. ... metaphor in a way of speaking.

Alpha:   OK.  Let me relate the whole idea of the inner round.  I don’t want to get onto the inner round for a second, but let me just relate this to our issue here.  Now we are talking about (and it is very interesting) three orders of planes.  We are talking about a systemic order, cosmic order and a super cosmic order of planes.  And so far they are seven fold.  So far.  However, it’s very interesting that DK says there are ten schemes and that some point he says there are ten chains (you recall the reference?  … he says there are ten chains). 

Delta: It is hinted at on page 369.

Alpha:   OK.  But it’s even been more than ‘hint at’.  There is an actual statement that there ten chains and ten schemes. 

Gamma:   ... in which he said we made life here in a very good scheme as a basis for our further work.  And he elaborates them.

Delta: What is bothering me in Esoteric Astrology, talking about Sirius and the Great Bear and the Pleiades:  “... they, with the seven solar systems of which ours is one, are the ten constellations connected with a still greater zodiac which is not conditioned by the numerical significance of the number twelve.  Hence ten is regarded as the number of perfection.” And on 231 in Esoteric Astrology he says .  “… in the future there will be only ten signs of the zodiac again  ... Aries and Pisces will form one sign ... the ending, the beginning.”

Alpha:  Well ...there are a lot of hints about the ten-foldness of things, and … some things are definite and blunt statements about our ten.  Maybe we can find that ... now what we should do?  We should make a list of things we have to search for? … the ten chains of our scheme is one of them ...very, very definitely.  So lets put that down somewhere that we are going to search for that. 

Let me make my point without having to justify that there ten.  OK, just for the moment.  The point is simply this.  Seven-foldness or ten foldness: in terms of entities we are always going to find ten foldness.  We are going to find the seven sacred planets and then we are going to find Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva surrounding the Solar Logos. 

Beta:   ... synthesising centres ... of synthesising schemes.

Alpha:   Yes, exactly.  And some of these involve more than one planet, maybe involve three planets.  But this is on the level of entities.  When we look at the cabala and we see the tree of life we always see the seven manifested and the three subjective.  Now, right here in the Secret Doctrine, Volume One, page 90, it is right here all about the seven manifest and the three subjective. 

Beta:   Interesting thing about the tree of the cabala is that it puts the three with the one.  So you have the tetraktys, the fourth, the higher quaternary. … It is part of the tetraktys.  Its the four-fold, the higher quaternary …  And the tetraktys is basically a three dimensional triangle, a tetrahedron.  Right?  The interesting thing is that you have, in the cabala, it graphically illustrated: the three below and the one above.  But you also have the number ten, which is a bit different when it is printed out in Bailey.  Of, course it is discussed in detail in Blavatsky.

Alpha:   ... let’s not let that point escape.  Three subjective units in the Tree of Life are Kether, Chockmah and Binah.  And they are considered to be the three subjective Sephiroth.  Now what are you saying about those?

Beta:   Well they are synthesised into the entire entity beyond.  Well, Kether, I guess, doubles as the entity incarnating.

Alpha:   Kether sometimes doubles as the monad.  … Let me try to make the point.  Always in terms of entities you have got three plus seven, and the three are great, and they are hidden.  It seems to happen on the level of schemes.  It seems to happen on the level of chains.  And I wonder if it happens on the level of globes?  Now what I am suggesting is that for every scheme, or chain, or globe system of seven you may actually have a system of ten.  And now what I want it ask is whether this does not exist for the planes themselves and whether you have seven objective planes and three subjective planes?

Beta:   There are always the personality aspect of the entity incarnating: the consciousness incarnating from the higher set of planes. 

Alpha:  OK, now which are always the personality aspect, the seven subjective or seven ‘objective’? 

Beta:   The subjective are usually the [three] cosmic mental, astral and physical incarnating through the [objective] seven fold lower planes.

Alpha:   OK.  Yes.  That is usually on the simplest level what it would be.  Let’s just take a look at the systemic planes.  Our normal systemic planes end with what is called the logoic plane. 

Beta:   This is depicted in Hindu mythology when the Brahmanda or the egg of Brahma, the universal illusion takes place, he goes up the fifth plane, the Brahmic plane, and sometimes to the plane above that, the sixth.  Actually they usually say the four, he goes up to the fourth, or the Buddhic level, while the world dissolves, but generally up to the fifth, which is atmic and which is Ruba, the Deva Lord Brahma

Alpha:   But going even further than that ... here is what I am asking ... Three above ...

Beta:   ... that are left in universal dissolution.  And so the seven have to be … included in the five. That explains Blavatsky’s use of atma as the top most, the seven are below atma.  Whereas Bailey was taking a few steps, including a much larger picture, psychologically maybe not universally, but psychologically.

Delta: I have a proposition to make which I don’t know whether this fully ties in with this but I think it does.  After looking at looking at Gamma’s things on triangles ... he has some quotes from Telepathy and the Etheric Vehicle with the lotuses of the chakras pictured as eight fold here ... but seven fold ... and there was a triangle at the centre.  So perhaps ... the triangle corresponds to spirit, soul, matter: the upper triad.  And maybe the ...  personality part of the triangle corresponds to globes; the soul part corresponds to globes chains; and the spirit corresponds to schemes. … In other words all three are operating simultaneously within the field, within this septenate. So in other words, maybe the three are operating in and beyond the seven. …

Beta:   Exactly

Alpha:   I think almost always that is the case.

Delta:  So rather than picturing as seven levels and three more levels stacked up on top of that, it might be better to picture the seven levels as a lotus of seven petals with a triangle, different focuses.

Beta:   Maybe looking at it more locally, if you are in the fourth round, four or three planes get annihilated; if you are in the fifth round, four or five planes get annihilated below during dissolution.  And this is the question a lot of people have when fundamentalist theosophists want to look through the chain or planetary scheme, a planetary manvantara of seven chains.  And then around through the chains can only go sequentially, can only be linear, time and space and all of universal life and consciousness follow this linear path is to me ‘outrageous’,  outrageously incorrect.  It is only in time and space from a pitiful human perspective that you could ever say that.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Yeah.

Beta:   So, in this case, you have, if three planes dissolved, or four, or five, you’d have, two, three, four, five anchors on the higher planes of the higher entity.  So would have the three plus the lower seven.  That would be the ten.  …

Alpha:   But even with what you said, Delta.  We don’t have to visualise them in some sort of stacked manner but these three are operative simultaneously with the seven and they are the higher order of magnitude. 

Delta: Yes

Beta:   ... and involve a separate set of cycles.

Alpha:   Yes.  Which could be the inner round.  You see this is another definition of the inner round.  Not to get to that immediately, but the point is simply this: the number 100 is very important in occultism.  You know, it is not arbitrary there should be a hundred years of Brahma. You know how it is for human beings.  Human beings are supposed to live to be seventy years old, but everybody wants to live to be a hundred.  You know, right there in that funny little human statement it tells it something about cosmic structure.  So from the obvious level we have got all these sevens.  But is you have systemic, cosmic and supercosmic planes, and you have a system of ‘higher three’ and ‘lower seven’, the total number of planes in the universe is one hundred.  Can that make sense? 

Delta:  Let me try to understand what you are saying, reiterate that. 

Alpha:   I am going to try to.  And hopefully I don’t trip over myself in doing so.  Or maybe ...No, actually, maybe I’ve just tripped myself ... and maybe the total number of planes is really one thousand. 

Gamma:  Right.  Yeah.

Alpha:   So, basically, what I am trying to say is that because there are ten chains and ten schemes and, I assume, ten globes (although  ________  is twelve.  Well, I just want to collapse his top three into one.  That is how I will deal with that.)  But, you know ... Laurency gives us forty-nine planes.  I am trying to say that of those forth-nine, instead of forty-nine planes what you should really have is ten times ten.  …

Delta:   I see.  You should have seven times seven and ten times ten. Or twelve times twelve if you want to work on twelves. 

Beta:   That picture you just showed us was a twelve with actually implicit thirteen.  Cause eight plus three ... eleven ... the circle on the outside—twelve, point in the middle—thirteen.

Alpha:   OK  Well maybe for practical purposes he tells us that ten is the number of perfection.  And we know that it exists with entities, but does it exist with their objective playground?  That is all I am asking.  Do we have a seven fold objective playground or a ten fold?  And even if we had a ten fold objective playground maybe it wouldn’t make any difference to us except in the conception of it. 

Gamma:   There would be three esoteric beings then.

Alpha:   Well, then, where are they?  You see this really means that beyond any normal sense of prakriti that we know about, they still have to be prakritic.  In other words, lets just look at our cosmic physical plane.  If we go by the system of ten, and there is prakriti way above the cosmic physical plane, then, any super three have still to be prakritic.  But it must be of such a subjective nature that we can’t deal with it.

Delta:   I guess the implications of what I was proposing would be that there are seven prakritic planes and that the supernal three are the synthesising three, which couldn’t properly be called the planes – perhaps a ‘triad of being’,  or something like that.  And this triad of being migrates through the various seven. … This triad also exists multidimensional-like.

Alpha:   Well, wait a sec, we already know that from the consciousness aspect there are those kind of triads you talk about.  The question is do they have any objective playground which corresponds to their transcendent nature?  …

Delta:   In so far as I understand the cabala, in a sense the upper three can’t – the Kether is totally invisible, Chockmah is like the whole field of galaxies and universes, and then Binah is the first manifestation.  In other words it has implicit manifestation which becomes sort of explicit and it is, to me, the same as the diagram on Cosmic Fire on page 373.  Those are the ten Sephiroth in the different form.

Alpha:   Let me ask you about the tree of life.  Is it not possible to stick a tree of life on the systemic planes?  Then a tree of life on the cosmic planes, and then a tree of life on what we are now calling super cosmic plane?  Would it not operate on each level?

Delta:   What I am proposing, to make a counter point here, is that it is really false to think of the upper three as existing on planes.  And the third one, in sense is where there is a laya point.  It changes from visible to invisible.  That is shown on 373 with the double circle around Saturn, which is Binah.  I am just saying this to establish a counter point.  I am not necessarily fully advocating what I said.

Alpha:   What you are saying ... use the board for just a second.  Suppose, you know, here is a point, here is the cosmic physical plane with everything that we normally know of life.  And let’s just assume that this line ....    this is the beginning of the cosmic astral plane on which our Planetary Logos is polarised.  And normally these two lines are together, at least that is the way we are normally considering them.  This is prakritic.  And according to Beta in reference to Blavatsky, the cosmic astral plane is also prakritic, which means that somehow it is ‘atomic’, because we live in a quantum universe in which you cannot have a continuum, so you have to have energy events in all these places.  Now, but what you are saying is that IF this lower cosmic physical plane is extended, the three that are here should not be considered prakritic.  The three planes above the cosmic physical which are not yet cosmic astral should not be considered in the normal way that cosmic physical and cosmic astral are being considered.  These two are being considered prakritic, right?  But you are saying that this interlude in here should be like a laya point or some other .....

Delta:   Yes.  But that is with other laya points on higher levels.  Sort of like a migrating laya point. 

Alpha:  So this is interesting.  He talks about the atomic planes in ______.  You can go from atomic plane, to atomic plane, to atomic plane without … So you are saying that, in a way, this is kind of like a super channel that could connect to this same thing up here and so forth.   From here ... to here ... to here.

Gamma:   Please tell me what is a laya point?

Delta:   Where spirit and matter meet.  One becomes the other.

Gamma:  Does it mean at the centre of a centre, for example?

Alpha:   It is a point of complete … stillness, a point of homogeneity, of complete potential for all differentiation which follows it, a point of absorption, a neutral point, a zero point, a non-action point which is filled with potential.

Delta:   He said if he were at ‘zero point’, so would it be part of the numbers, the three are a sort of fancy ‘zero’.  That is what I am proposing.

Alpha:   OK  We need her definition.

Gamma:   I am not familiar with laya point, because I have always thought that at the centre of a chakra is where we have a laya centre.

Alpha:  Pra-laya ... the two things are going together.

Gamma:   Oh is that what we have.  You take the centre in the, say the throat centre, there is an astral, physical-astral, etheric-physical, astral and mental throat centre.  And how are they linked?  Where do they go from one to the other, through a point at the centre of the centre?

Beta:   Right … the laya centre.

Gamma:   At the centre.  That is what I thought the laya centre is.

Beta:   That what I think of it.

Delta:   And that is how I am proposing the three are.

Gamma:   This is a non-dimensional centre.

Beta:   Or it is an atomic centre.  Because it is made of the highest ether. … And you are right in the zero point, it is where you can choose to manifest or not.

Alpha:  Un-ha.  But you see it has still got to be substantial, that is the point, we have to get at the definition here. My question to Delta is, how can we look above and say that there is similar advantages below and yet look at a transition here and say that it has nothing to do with either of these?  You know that it’s of a completely different nature. 

Let me just read her three lines on the point. OK?  Laya, lyam, from the root lee ...to dissolve, to disintegrate.  A point of equilibrium, zero point in physics and chemistry.  In occultism, that point where substance becomes homogeneous and is unable to act or differentiate. (Theosophical Glossary, page 187).

I am not sure we are going to solve this particular issue; we have a couple of different ideas here.

Beta:   Could I make an observation here which is, in dealing with any threefold system ... you could have seven planes down here, might put the three up here as implicit as seven plus the three.  If you are looking at from the point of view of a monad incarnating, at initial stage, to start incarnation process, then the three would be a shadow.  If you are talking about it for the second stage, the second stage of the soul incarnating through it, then this would be your reflection for the soul. For the monad in the first stage of incarnating or from the lowest or from the animal man being stuck in the lower planes, the implicit three would be a shadow.  Or, also this whole thing would be the shadow of the monad.  It would be the reflection of the Ego.  But then when the evolution of the Ego of consciousness is finished and it is beginning to merge again with the life principle then these would not only be direct reflections but they would be highly active synthesising centres.

Alpha:   We better get our antecedents straight.  What do we mean by ‘these’?  … What you are pointing to now is the Logoic, Monadic and Atmic planes?

Beta:   Well, actually no … you could use the triad planes.  Certainly that is more important.  I am just thinking of the general periodical vehicles here.  If you made this the, say cosmic astral here, cosmic mental, and this would be the incarnation of the Solar Logos, then in its first life impulse it would create the world’s first solar system, the second solar system where evolution takes place.  You wouldn’t just have a shadow monad reflected in the waters. You would actually have a reflection in the substance of the soul, the One. The third solar system takes place, the first aspect, anchored on the lowest plane.  And when the true soul consciousness is merged with the monadic consciousness again, you have the mayavarupa, you have full demonstration.

Alpha:  So we are dealing with three ideas: shadow, reflection and full demonstration.

Beta:   Right.  A threefold system, but then it can be fivefold.

Gamma:   May I ask … esoteric are not manifested ... are non manifested.

Beta:   ... at first they would be really latent, in the second it would be interactive.  It would be there to a lesser extent.  But because the second phase is conscious ... consciousness ...

Gamma:   ... they would be reflected ... like they are reflected in the (inaudible) aspect, for example, in respect to the other one.

Beta:   Right.  It would be like the personality relating to the soul on cosmic levels as well as local ones.

Gamma:   What you are saying is that they are not manifested but they first have a shadow in the first three planes of the cosmic physical ...

Beta:   Right.  The first would be latent and just a shadow.  But in the consciousness system, the second, its interactive, increasingly interactive until it is fully conscious. Then you enter the third phase and then they would become highly active on their own level ... the three, the implicit three.  …

Delta:   Let me repeat it.  And then tell me simply whether this is wrong or correct.  That the supernal three are reflected into the initial three and the first is the shadow and the initial three, then the initial, and then in the second solar system there is a clear reflection, and then there is a third solar system that is fully operative.

Beta:   And then the three develop a life of their own and somehow the higher entity incarnating through them, through the lower sevenfold system, has developed a threefold outpost which he can then abstract or use ... …  if they are involved with the planes above something is abstracted up into the places.  Because the planet is emotionally polarised … and we are tested on the third subplane of the cosmic astral.  So that suggests to me five planes up, the third coming down.  So right now we are at that phase where ... the substance of our sevenfold system has moved up into the cosmic astral and planetary levels because we are in the second solar system .... or the fourth round or fifth round, because of our stage right now.  And we are in the second....

Alpha:   Are we being tested on the third or the fourth subplane? …

Beta:   The Heavenly Man is with the Earth school, and all the units of the Earth school are tested on the third.

Alpha:   But we’re not on the third, as units of the earth school ...

Beta:   ... we are attached to Venus, perhaps.

Alpha:  We may be, but we are nowhere near the possibility of being tested on the cosmic astral plane as ...

Beta:   Oh, but I feel with individual initiation we move onto the cosmic astral plane.

Alpha:   ... after the fifth initiation?

Beta:   Yeah.  We have access ...

Alpha:   Well, OK.  We have to check that out.

Gamma:   OK ... because DK says he doesn’t know anything about the astral plane.

Alpha:   He does say that.  He says, “You know, I have not been there.”  He says.  And he is not an initiate yet of the sixth degree.

Beta:   Well maybe that is fifth initiation with a capital “I”.

Alpha:   OK, well then we can talk about the difference between. ...  Obviously, you know what can happen....

Beta:   I have always taken it as the lower fifth though, as an adept initiate has contact with the cosmic astral ... and is building that into their vehicles.

Alpha:   OK.  Maybe we can get a reference to substantiate that because there are several references to initiation where cosmic initiations have between them a graded series of others, which are not human at all.  For instance, our Planetary Logos is working towards the achievement of the second cosmic initiation now, and working on the fourth initiation.  So between cosmic initiations there are a whole series of initiations and ...

Beta:   But we are no longer human once we enter the fifth kingdom.

Alpha:   Right.  And the question is do we enter the fifth kingdom at the first cosmic initiation, which is the fifth initiation.  …

You know, what can happen is the mind can split of in ramifications here.  Let me just try to summarise this for just a second.  Let’s see where we’ve  gone.  We have identified three different kinds of planes: … We have identified systemic planes, cosmic planes, and super-cosmic planes.  (… Solar systemic,  systemic and solar are the same thing.)  The Tibetan tells us that our highest life, or anything that we ordinary human beings can know is still very much on the upper levels of our systemic plane.  And he says that he himself does not know what goes on on the cosmic astral plane.  He says ... ‘for I have not been there’.

OK.  So therefore we find the Christ and certain other entities capable of penetrating the cosmic astral plane.  We find the Sirius and the Solar Logos involved in ways that we will go into in greater detail with the cosmic mental plane and we find some sort of focus of the seven Lords of the Great Bear. ... at least on the chart on page 344 they are focused on the cosmic buddhic plane.  They have a place there.  We’ll have to define what that is.  And that is still on the very lowest of super cosmic planes.  …

Gamma:   In the physical

Alpha:   Yeah.  It is in the physical part of the super cosmic plane.  Note that the very highest entities of which we can conceive are somehow located on the lowest of the super cosmic planes.

Beta:   The higher that entity (the more systemic), the more dense the access; we only have denser and denser access to the higher, the higher and higher we go.  [I mean], all we can see of the highest entities are their most dense aspects.  When it is planetary, we see a bit farther when it is more local.  Or solar, we see it a little less than planetary.

Alpha:   OK.  .... We are merging into entities which is good, because this is sort of our next question.  We have the Solar Logos to deal with; we have Sirius to deal with; and we have the ‘second’ of the OAWNMBS.  In other words, we have this ‘being’ that is called … on the chart on page 344 it is simply the big circle on plane number two.  That to me is one of the OAWNMBS’s, and perhaps our particular OAWNMBS.  But to make a long story short, our supercosmic logos is still located on the cosmic monadic plane, it looks like his monadic location is on the cosmic monadic plane.  … the point is that we in no way can yet conceive of an entity ... although, of the ones we have been told about, that go off the ...

Beta:   Well, what about this one ... this entity ... that includes these as his chakras.

Alpha:  Well ... we are not even to the point of the cosmic Parabrahman here.  You see, the OAWNMBS ... lets forget the higher one ...

Beta:   Well no, but the higher one always reflects its chakras, or ray lords, into the second place.  They first make their impact there and the ray lords individualise on the third plane. … The higher entity always incarnates through the seven lower planes.  It makes its first impact through the second ether.

Alpha:   OK.  So you are saying that … these are seven chakras of something ...

Beta:   Of another entity, yes, … cosmic Parabrahman. … Because that for one incarnation it only uses one of these ... probably ... or as the soul it may use all seven … as a monad it may use seven of these.

Alpha:   Well, let the point is simply this, I have just made a presumptions statement that we don’t know of any entities that exist on even the supercosmic astral plane.  We don’t.  But now what Beta is saying is the fact that we have (on page 344) these seven great entities on the second cosmic plane is a guarantee that something is going on on the supercosmic planes of which they are a chakric reflection.  In other words we have these seven here.  Of what are they the chakras?  …

Beta:  … What is needed for an incanate of this Parabrahman entity on the first plane?  What sets are needed for one physical dense incarnation, because that is generally all we can see.

Alpha:   OK.  Well, so basically this is inference.  In other words, we have just been informed of a new series of planes that not too many of us have taken into consideration before.  These are called Kosmic planes (with a ‘k’) and now Beta is saying that by looking at the chart on page 344, implications of activity on the super cosmic planes is shown there.  And what I want to say is that DK says that the limit of entities about which we can know anything is the OAWNMBS.  He says that is the limit.  Now, I’m not including the Sirian Logos because that might be one of the OAWNMBS’s, at least I began to think that. In other words, the Lord of the Seven Solar Systems.  But this particular being in whom Draco and the Great Bear and the Seven Pleiades are chakras is called ‘an’ OAWNMBS.  And he is saying that beyond that we can’t know anything psychologically.  We can know about their existence but we do not know about their energy system.

Beta:   That is the higher one.  And the lower one would be only the seven suns.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Exactly.  … Let’s look at this term OAWNMBS.  The Sirian Logos, who has the seven suns as his chakras is the first of the OAWNMBS’s.  And so little is said that you don’t even know that there is a system there.  And you develop these ideas in your articles [Beta].  Now, the normal OAWNMBS that the Tibetan speaks of has for its chakras the Great Bear, Draco .... the Seven Constellation ... but he calls then Solar Systems even though they are constellations.  He calls them solar systems. But there are seven of which the seven solar systems are one.  Now, he says that is the only being about which we can know psychologically.  …

Delta:   Say that again.  There are seven constellations of which the seven solar systems are representatives of these seven constellations?

Alpha:  Let me try to say it in another way.  That in this being called OAWNMBS which is located at the central circle on page 344, on plane number two, the centres there are constellations.  You see those seven triangles? Each one of those triangles, to me, stands for a system of at least seven stars: the Great Bear, Pleiades, Draco, whatever ...

Beta:   ... unless these seven circles stand for the seven systems of seven stars. And then this is one of those systems of seven stars which is most locally related to the incarnation process. … [Specifically], unless each of these circles contain seven triangles, each of the triangles may be threefold incarnating entities through one solar system ... So this one circle in the middle, because it is the fourth in number, could be an explanation of our sun being of the fourth order.  But if these seven circles with seven triangles on the second plane are considered seven solar systems, then you could make it even more complex by saying one of these circles and these triangles are actually seven constellations. 

But I think that these – if you give them names of Draco, Orion, etc., for all of these seven going across, then those would just be the names, just like the planetary names are used for chains, and globes and rounds.  You would use the Draco name for the actual constellation; and use the Draco name for one of these triangles in this central circle of seven triangles; and use a Draco name perhaps down here on the fourth plane for one of the triangles associated with the Rishis, or the wives of the Rishis which ever it is.  [... It is the same] for all three levels: like the Venus name would be used for the Venus scheme, and the Venus chain, and the Venus globe and round.

Alpha:   So you are saying that one possibility for interpreting the chart on page 344, is to look at these seven circles as the seven great constellations.  For instance, one of them would stand for Draco, and then the seven triangles within would be sub-Draco elements, would be the seven sections of the Draco constellation? 

Beta:   But each one of these seven circles or seven constellations would have one sun in each one that would be called Draco.

Alpha:   Yeah.  OK.  I get it ... it is just a bit like schemes, chains, and rounds, and globes.  But let me ask you a question.  It looks to me like the seven Rishis of the Great Bear being the seven centres in ‘a’ Solar Logos, is a tremendous blind ... isn’t it? 

Beta:   Exactly.

Alpha:   Because the word Solar Logos ... you could never have the Rishis, which are maximally superior to our Solar Logos, being the centre in THAT Solar Logos, could you?  No?  No.  So my question is: If, from this little triangle here it expands to include what look like seven Rishis, is that not a direct hint that the little triangle itself is the totality of those seven Rishis? 

Beta:   Exactly, that is possible.

Alpha:   Now if that triangle is the totality of the seven Rishis the other triangles must be ... a seven fold system.  Does it not stand to reason that the other little triangles in that same circle should be comparable and all of them should be sevenfold systems?

Beta:   Constellations, right?

Alpha:   ... therefore constellations.  Therefore Pleiadian, Sirian, Draconian etc., etc.  So this seems to me to be, for that reason I deduce that the large circle on plane two is the OAWNMBS ... our particular OAWNMBS, whose centres are constellations, and

Gamma:   ... for example, the Great Bear.  The seven are the seven around the head centre. ...the constellation of the Great Bear is the head centre and those seven stars are the seven centres which are around the head centre.

Alpha:   OK.  They are the seven head centres.  The seven small head centres ... Yeah, within the head.

Beta:   But Blavatsky says the entity of which the Rishis are seven head centres has for its head centre the Little Bear. The Dragon, she calls the dragon of wisdom ....

Alpha:   Lets repeat that. 

Beta:   The entity of which the seven Rishis are the seven head centres, has for its head centres the seven stars of the Little Dipper .... the Little Bear. …

Delta:   The Little Bear is greater than the Great Bear?

Beta:   ... somehow conducting, I think, vertical thread energies from something that we cannot visualise in a solar systemic, we can’t visualise in our local space.  It is bringing thread energies through the Little Bear into the seven stars of the head centre of our entity which we can see.  We can see seven constellations of galaxy, of galactic clusters, open clusters.  We can see seven systems of there stars associated with ... names Bailey mentions. …

Gamma:  First of all these seven centres, seven head centres ... what are they?  They are the seven centres which are within the head centre?

Beta:   Right. ... or above.  The head centre is true ...

Gamma:   So what is the head centre?

Beta:   … it is so extremely complex, it has five eyes and then the head centre also has the three major centres.  Then it has this centre at the middle.  Then it has the empty hole ... the Brahmanandra ... empty hole through the middle.  It has the thousand petalled lotus in the middle ... but then it has the twelve petalled lotus at the centre.  Then you can arrange seven centres above .... Above the head centre, which represent in a way the soul trying to express through the physical.  Then, if you count down four from the seven you have the twelve petalled heart centre as well ... with this lower reflection in twelve petals ...

Various:   OK.  We need a map … Could you make a drawing of that head centre? … Do you have a reference for this?

Beta:   No.  This is just my compilation.

Delta:   While Beta is drawing I would maybe like to go back to the three and seven again.  … It would seem the three aren’t fully immanent until the seven are synthesised, or fully in all the chakras, or however you want to say it.  So now I’m thinking pretty much what I thought before, that the three really exist within the atomic plane.  In other words, there is a full aliveness to all seven planes, all seven chakras.  That the three synthesising planets become fully immanent. The upper three would be on that initial first plane.

Alpha:   OK.  Actually on the chart on page 344 shows the three synthesising planets, or it shows three Logoi.  We have the three and the seven right there ... look down on plane seven. …

Delta:   That is pretty much just what I had intuited.

Alpha:   OK.  Well, we are getting two different views about the substantiality of three superior planes.  In other words we are saying, are there three superior planes, or are there not?  We know there are three superior entities.  That we know.  And you are saying that basically they function through the highest of the seven?

Delta:   Yeah, I am saying that from a fifth ray mental point of view.  In other words, an operative tangible basis to work on.  I’m not necessarily saying that what you propose is wrong without the (inaudible) planes.  But I am just trying to come up with an operative definition, which may be so operative it is excluding other possibilities.  So I don’t mean to do that.

Alpha:   Well.  I think the important thing to emerge, you know ... is the one more point of substantiation about supercosmic planes.  … Blavatsky has given us one more.  Everything in DK kind of points towards the possibility of supercosmic planes, but Blavatsky basically has confirmed their existence ... at least in her opinion ... on page 434 ...

Delta:   Well, I agree with the supercosmic planes but that doesn’t really address the idea of the three and the seven so much.  It just ... I was just trying to wrap up that one issue because ... not lets go on to others.

Epsilon:  I don’t understand why those three super entities would need special planes.  Couldn’t they live on the next upper plane.

Alpha:   OK.  Here is what I am saying: We are always told about seven entities.  But then, lo and behold, there are ten.  And if this works out, it always works out this way: we are told about seven sacred and yet, somehow, there are ten.  And I am saying, if this works out on the level of an entity, which is the second aspect and the first combined, why can it not work out on the level of the arena through which they express themselves.  In other words, how thorough-going is the ten-ness of cosmos.  It seems to operate to create systems of beings that are tenfold.  Why should it not create systems of prakriti that are tenfold.  That is my only question.  And I don’t know the answer to it ... nor will I know the answer to it.

Gamma:   What you are asking is, Can you have an entity without a plane of manifestation?

Alpha:   Yeah, that is right ... without a plane of manifestation appropriate to its level.  That is the thing.

Delta:   I think I am saying this mystically (I wish I could say it in an occult way). This deals with tetraktys.  This supernal three ... the dot and the two dots perhaps reflected right into the next one, which is the three dots.  And that works out with a tangible manifestation of four dots.  Or, I am not sure exactly how to elucidate it but I think that tetraktys is a real key to all of this.

Alpha:   I think it is.  I think with the tetraktys you have, among other ways of doing it: father, son, holy ghost, mother.  See, that is one way of interpreting the four that are the ten.  And we will get into the tetraktys and try to take it apart.  OK. But right now Beta has up here for us a kind of a diagram of head centres.

Beta:   Yeah.  Well it is just a synthesis of trying to understand how they all interact. 

Tape Two Begins

Alpha:  Beta is going to talk about the head centre and its relation to the monad and manifesting body in the organisation, potential organisation or the crown centre.

Beta:   These are insights that I get actually from analysing external space and trying to understand the physical systems of solar and cosmic entities ... This is really directly related to OAWNMBS, in either seven solar systems or suns, or seven constellations.  And the way I was thinking of it is if we as a soul incarnate through a physical body, the physical body has seven centres down here.

I haven’t drawn in as I really should, but soul itself, if you … use the individualisation system you always place a deity or a tutelary deity on the top of the head.  But if you think of the tutelary deity as basically your own soul, as the more you get into the tantric meditation and realise that the deities that you are visualising, that you are, that are giving you knowledge,  are actually your own soul as well as principles outside of your soul in some sense or another. Then these would be the seven chakras, or centres, of your own soul above your head.

Alpha:   Seven chakras of your own soul.  You mean by that a solar angel?

Beta:   Yes, to a certain extent.  But we have to take into consideration the astral chakras and mental chakras.  This is important too.  So it becomes complex, quite complex.  And this is only on the physical system, the only reflection in physical substance, I believe.  I don’t believe I have even gotten to … astral or mental kamamanasic chakras but I think actually they are organised quite differently …

Alpha:   And … the astral chakras could be down there too corresponding to those ... and some of the mental chakras.   But you said that you have drawn seven circles there.  Where are the chakras of the soul?

Beta:   Well, the seven head centres above the head, not inside the head itself, physically ... or etherically.  All sixteen ... sixteen tiers.

Gamma:   You seem to have drawn them as ....as permanent atoms.

Beta:   I think these are all related.  This is the point that … dealing with this material actually steps into yoga and becomes dangerous.  I just want to say that because I really want an answer ... I don’t think I can give myself an answer.  I’d like to get a bit of feedback from other people in a group like this.

Alpha:   Well, let’s see if we can get a soul diagram ...

Beta:   … We go to the head centre.  Traditionally it is called the thousand petalled lotus.  We know that in the centre of the thousand petalled lotus are twelve petals of golden hue.  We know that the ajna centre has ninety-six petals.  (I can go to ajna in another time ... it is very complex.)  But, we know there are five eyes associated  ... I am just trying to draw these out and see what we can abstract from it.  ... the right eye, left eye, then we have the three head centres.  And I am not sure how these are related to the eyes entirely, but the eyes ....

Delta:   ... excuse me.  Are you saying that the three head centres are three eyes?  When you say there are five eyes and ...

Beta:   There are five eyes.  Bailey says there are five eyes. … Let me describe what Bailey says, literally, in her way .... She says there is an eye of the soul, which is sort of associated with the Brahmarandra ... the soul looking down into the physical body.  She says that it is different from the third eye ... totally different.  She says also that the third eye is not the ajna centre. 

So, looking at three centres in the head you have something corresponding to the pineal, the pituitary and the alta major.  So you have those three physical centres in the head.  But you also have, interesting enough, two eyes below and these three eyes that Bailey talks about: ajna, the third eye, and the eye of the soul.  I think that probably the third eye is associated somewhat with the alta major ... the eye of the soul probably with the pineal, at some stage ... or maybe reversed.

Delta:   Well, why are you calling the ajna an eye ... or are you just saying that definitionally?

Beta:   I was using it definitionally.  And she actually includes it in her description of the eyes ... of the three eyes headed in another section on the five eyes.  They are in two different books.

Alpha:   Now, one of the definitions of the third eye has been an evocation that is the etheric pineal gland coming from the interaction of the ajna, alta major and highest head centre.  She talks about it as an evocation of the three ...

Beta:   … the third eye.

Alpha:   The third eye.  Right.  So where is that structurally in your map here.

Beta:   I think probably this triangle here.  And the eye of the soul is what look down here. …

Alpha:   The third eye is an instrument which is evolved from the interaction of three chakras or three glands within the human system itself. … And the eye of the soul is the means by which the solar angel sees into the whole, through the triangle.  So the third eye is the instrument, then, for the eye of the soul.

Beta:   And I think she actually makes a reference.  … I think she says that it is associated, perhaps, with the seven head centres looking down into the soul  through the three points located in the head. 

Gamma:   The eyes of the soul may be a synthesis of all these seven chakras?

Beta:   Yeah.  Seven and seven.  It could be the (inaudible) seven with the five which would make twelve.  The ajna we know is passive ... for a very long time it is only used passively.  And in the fifth round it supposedly an (inaudible) projected.  It will be projected.  It can be its projected radius ... probably too dangerous to use it projectively.  But I think associated with the number twelve it is probably safe to use it projectively.  Then again … you have the physical correspondences in physical etheric matter down here in the thousand petalled lotus of the twelve golden petals that may be identical with twelve petalled lotus of the seven centres above the head.  But I think it is quite distinct.

We know that on the level of the head centre, what we normally consider the head centre, located right at the top of the head, is about a thousand petalled lotus, and in those thousand petals are twelve that are gold coloured ...  And this can actually be related to Avalokitesvara, the thousand armed variety, or the twelve heads, which could represent the centres, and only eight arms; unfortunately, this is an interesting mystery that has never been verified.  So they’re arms of activity.  But the heads are twelve … the twelve petalled lotus is located in the thousand petalled lotus.

Alpha:   And are there literally a thousand petals?  Or is it more ... nine hundred and sixty as he seems to suggest?

Beta:   Well that is associated with the ajna … Ninety-six times ten.

Alpha:   Ninety-six times ten.  … Ten times the ajna centre. …

Beta:   In fact, that would leave forty-eight left.  That’s something that needs to be pursued. 

Alpha:   OK.  But, I just want to make sure ... you are adding additional subtle structures to the normal conception of the head centre.  So every time you talk about a new thing that DK doesn’t talk about ....

Beta:   No, these are things that he does talk about. [… but yes, with Avalokitesvara, that is an inference.] …

Alpha:   OK.  On your diagram here the eye of the soul is represented by what figure?

Beta:   Oh.  That would be ...  Whatever it is the solar angel ... Bailey also says there are seven centres above the head … somewhere.  ....

Alpha:   ... but not just the seven head centres within, but it’s seven centres ‘above’ head?  Because I don’t recall any reference like that.  But if it does exist …

Beta:   Maybe I am confusing it with Blavatsky but I doubt it. 

Alpha:   OK.  It would be important to nail that down.

Gamma:   I am writing down all the questions which we need to ...

Beta:   Well … we could look at in either of two ways ... these seven I have depicted graphically as above could be collapsed down into the head centre.  And then the fourth of those would be the heart, it would be the twelve petalled lotus.  In that case, before it was collapsed, it could be identified with the twelve golden petalled.

Alpha:   OK.  Let’s stop for a second.  Because now we have got two things where there used to be one.  There is a twelve petalled golden lotus ...

Beta:   ... in the twelve ...

Alpha:   ... either nine hundred and sixty, or one thousand petlaled.  But now you are talking about another twelve petalled lotus which is not the egoic vehicle.  What is that?

Beta:  No, it is the egoic vehicle, it is the higher ...

Alpha:   OK.  Now you are talking about the egoic lotus of twelve petals.  I just want to make sure what the second sun is.  …

Beta:   These are physical correspondences.  These are the seven centres above the head that organise the seven centres in the body.

Alpha:   OK.  And among these seven centres above the head is a central one which is twelve fold and which is the higher correspondence of the golden twelve petalled lotus in the head. … So basically it either looks like we’ve got two kinds of centres here.  One is the thousand petalled lotus with the twelve petalled golden, and then above that is another sevenfold system, the centre of which is the twelve fold lotus. And this is your inference?

Beta:   Right.  But the causal is on the mental plane it can’t be on these physical systems.  You can only have a reflection down here, because we are not even talking about astral centres necessarily although these causal centres are seven because there is a passive system tied into the third. The mental system may be different.

Alpha:   You have just proposed an additional system which may be above the head centre and which is not talked about by DK.

Beta:   I believe it is ... but is true we need to find a citation for that ... and I need to look...

Alpha:   OK.   And you are saying that this central lotus ... this central twelve petalled lotus which is in your sevenfold system above the head a reflection of the causal body, which itself is twelvefold, but is not the causal body because it is still physical – it is still etheric.

Beta:   Right.  And it ties in with the mental chakras in a certain way … totally different from the sevenfold system.

Alpha:   ... But are the four mental chakras on the lower subplanes of the mental plane ... or maybe they are not ... maybe they are all on the lowest of the subplanes.

Beta:   There is different number.

Alpha:   ... not the four in this case.

Beta:   ... a completely different number.

Alpha:   DK gives four ... plus the mental unit.

Beta:   … He made one sentence in all the books. … She talks that it is completely different … This is the thing that I worry about.  I think he only mentioned it in one line, one sentence, because for someone who studied Tibetan yoga it provides an immense key.  I don’t know how dangerous it is. I begin to see all kinds of things invading the territory ... of the Tibetan ... traditions that existed for very long times.

Alpha:   Well, if we turn off the tape recorder and promise that we won’t say a thing can you tell us how many mental centres there are?

(tape paused)

Gamma:   Page 817. 

Alpha:   Oh, look here.  Page 823 ... that would be sufficient wouldn’t it? 

Alpha:   See.  So, this is not what you are talking about.  One, two, three, four ...

Beta:   Oh, not at all.  ... Isn’t that interesting, that has to be taken into consideration as well.  …

Delta:   I am going back to a thing we mentioned a few minutes ago which was the question of how many petals the crown chakra have.  And now reading from page 168 in Cosmic Fire, page 168 number 5d:  ... the very top of the head  ... a centre consisting of twelve major petals of white and gold and 960 secondary petals arranged around the central twelve.  This make a total of 1068 petals in the two head centres. 

Alpha:   Let’s see how we get that.  We have 972 plus 98, or 96?  972 plus 96 gives 1068,  does it not?  OK.  96 are the number of the petals in the ajna centre.  The 960 plus the twelve of the central lotus is 972.  Add to that the 96 and you get 1068.  And then, with the ajna centre it is also possible to consider that the two petals themselves must be considered ... each petal is forty-eight fold.  ... so 48 and 48 are 96.  But you have to consider the possibility of adding in the two petals themselves of the ajna centre.  So that it is a bit like ninety-eight, which is interesting because it is two times 49 .  So it looks like there is some completion there.  …

Epsilon:  This make a total of 1068 in the two head centres … making the one centre of 356 triplicities.

Alpha:   ... but what are the 356 triplicities?  What are the triplicities that he is talking about?  By the way ... this number sums to fourteen ... which sums to five ... which when added together three times sums to fifteen ... which is equal to six ...  As a matter of fact 1068 sums to six.   Oh.  My goodness, look at this … 1068 sums to 24; 10 plus 6 plus 8 = 24..  That is the Shamballic number connected with the head centre.  In other words ... all of the head centres, short of the alta major centre, sum up to the number of Shamballa.  …

Gamma:  The alta major has twelve petals. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  Well, then  ...then what is interesting there is ... Malvin thinks it is four related to the correspondence within the head centre to the base of the spine centre and he says ... karmically related.  He says the alta major centre is related to the evocation of karma so the number four would fit related to the four lords of karma and the matter aspect.

Beta:   ... the kumaras.

Alpha:   OK.  And so Beta, let us know when you are ready.  ... Is there anything further we should say? You know, this question of how to deal with the petals is mathematically interesting … just as a side line, is it possible to add together petal numbers and get some kind of numerical equivalence in other petals ... in other chakras.  For instance, if one were to add together the sacral centre and the solar plexus centre you would get sixteen which is equivalent to the throat centre.  Is that a legitimate method of approach?   In other words can you say that there’s a higher and lower creativity involved here?  That desire plus the power of the sacral centre yields a lower creativity which is the lower kind of correspondence to the creativity of the throat centre.  See, there is different ways to play with the numbers of the petals in the chakra system.

Beta:   I think what I am going to have to do is just say that ... the ajna is particularly interesting.  Because it has ninety-six petals and that is the sum of all the lower chakras. … I think it is in Letters on Occult Meditation …

Alpha:   OK.  ...  4, 6, 10, 12, 16, so that is 38.  See, the base of the spine is four, sacral six, solar plexus ten, heart twelve, and then sixteen.  So this is 28, 38, 48 ... 

Beta:   ... twice forty-eight

Alpha:   that’s it ... ajna centre.  Twice forty-eight.  So there must be two ways of using the lower centres.

Beta:   Add 48 to 96 equals 144 ... times twelve.

Alpha: … So what Beta has just said here is that the sum of the lower chakras up through the throat is 48, (forgetting the spleen), and 2 times 48 is equal to 96, whch are the number of petals in the ajna centre.  Add another 48 to 96 you get 144.

Beta:   ... you get a triangle between the two petals of the ajna with all the centres.  And that fits in to the idea of it being a controlling centre ... both for the personality and a controlling mechanism of the soul over the personality.

Alpha:  Do we understand that.  In other words ... the 48 on one side on the one side of the ajna ... 48 on the other and then 48 of all the petals below the ajna make it a triangle of three 48’s … which is 144, which DK calls the number of the saved.  ...

Epsilon:  Yeah and … in the bible there are the 144,000 …

Alpha:   Yeah, who are the number of the saved.  And he says that the three ciphers stand for the three aspects of the personality added on to the 144.

Gamma:   ... the ajna is 96, but 48 is one side, since it is a synthetic ....those 48 must come from something else.  Do they come from the higher centres by any chance?

Alpha:   Or, why should one of the 48’s come from something else different from the first of the 48’s?  There are 48 that have to do with form and 48 that have to do with spirit, I suppose. …  For instance, in the ajna centre we are told that the black magician has developed the power of the ajna centre greatly in conjunction with the sacral centre.  …

So, the question is, Which side of the ajna centre has to do with spirit and which side has to do with matter?  And we get colours of yellow and red on one side and of violet and blue on the other side.  And I have never been able to figure out which.... But maybe it should just be obvious.  Maybe the left hand ajna centre should be related to the left.

[VSK adds what she believes is a correction: yellow and “rose”, and conjecturing is related to buddhi-astral; with the “violet” and blue relating to etheric-mental.]

various:   Well, if we look at it physically it is anterior and posterior.  And you know when you actually see the colours ... you know purple, and then yellow around it and they just constantly telescope between the two.  The  ... it sort of implies a front and back orientation.  But it has to be associated with right and left.  Probably with buddhi-manas. … We have the colours ... we have the answer ... buddhi-manas.... OK. ... And, and the black magician is expert in manas pure and simple.  And buddhi has to be added to make the white magician.  So the left hand ... now does anybody remember in the diagram in the Leadbeater book whether the left hand is the darker colours or the lighter colours? … I think it would be the dark colours.  Other times when you look at it, it would be the yellow and the red. … That would be the logical, the yellow and red would be more related to the left, we have the colour of the first ray and manas, yellow.  Well, that is one of the manasic colours. … I think yellow and red would be more of the black magician.

But, let me just say we now seem to have gone onto a new, discreet topic called the centres.

Alpha:   We began with Beta’s description of the head centre and we’re are still in the centres.  But the only thing ... that since the ajna centre is material in several senses ... namely, it defines the personality, and as well it defines the personality of the monad because it is an expression for the triad.  So, in every sense we can consider the ajna centre to be more material than the head centre ... and in a way 144 is the number of those that ‘need’ saving .... in a sense.  In other words, everything from six on down ... in a way ... s subatomic.

Beta:   Now there we are.  And the quote from Esoteric Healing, page 147-148, on the ajna centre, it’s the centre the fourth creative hierarchy of monads find expression.  And here, also, this hierarchy and the fourth kingdom in nature, the human family, are fused and blended so he’s actually implying that the creative hierarchy and the kingdom, fourth kingdom are totally different.  And they are only fused and blended in the ajna centre.  The head centre ... ahhh ... I just read something I didn’t mean to read, but, the head centre relates the monad to the personality.  The ajna related the triad.

Alpha:  That is fine.  That is what I was saying.  That the ajna relates the triad to the personality.  Ajna relates two triads.  So there is a factor of ten operative here.  A factor of power.  … 96 is personality, and the head centre is ten times more multitudinous.  So I am thinking  that there is some kind of factor of ten that is operative.  It is giving you a sense of magnitude of how much more powerful the head centre is than the ajna centre. And how much more powerful the soul is (or whatever you want to call it, soul/spirit), than the personality.  …

Beta:   Yes, its on 149.  In the ajna centre again he talks about the petal composed of ninety-six lesser petals.  Forty-eight plus forty-eight ... he explicitly states here.  Then, he says they constitute symbolically therefore the two. Now page 150: “They constitute symbolically therefore the two arms of the cross upon which the man is crucified.  (—the two petals of 48 each—) .... the two streams of energy or light placed athwart the stream of life descending form the monad to the base of the spine and passing through the head.”

Alpha:   So that is the cross.

Beta:   And what we have is the Tao with the 344 … So the two petals of the ajna centre represent two streams of energy or light placed athwart the stream of life descending from the monad to the base of the spine and passing through the head.  So you basically have the 144 in the lower three.  All seven centres sum to 48, plus the two petals, forming a Tao of those who have to be saved.   If you added in another 48, I am not sure what you would get.

Alpha:   Why would you have to add another 48?

Beta:   ...  The full cross ... but I think above ... the thousand petalled lotus really.

Alpha:   What do we come to when we add all petals of the major centres?  We have 960, plus 12, plus 96, plus 48.  We have eight and eight is sixteen, eight, nine, seventeen, 1116, 1116.  Nine.  Is that legitimate to do?  Let’s see.  Plus four, plus spleen is six ...

Beta:   Oh, divided by nine.  That would be incredible.

Alpha:   ... divided by nine?  Could you do that?  Twenty one ... two.  Oh my.  Oh, 124. 

Beta:   ... by nine?

Alpha:   Yeah.  If you divide the total number of petals by nine you get 124.  Now let’s see if I am correct.  Nine sixty plus twelve, plus ninety-six, plus forth-eight.

Epsilon:   Yeah.  No. 124.

Alpha:   Yeah.  I just want to make sure.  Ues 1116, now the only thing is that out of that you are having to leave some things.  …

Beta:   If you divide by twelve you get 93, an odd number ... its some interesting research ... Actually what Bailey says … between these two directing eyes is to be found the ajna centre which is like a third eye or directing agent for the blended and fused energies of the personality.  Related to this third eye as it wakens and comes into functioning activities will be called the eye of the soul.  This is a point within the highest head centre.

Alpha:  OK.   Here is the eye of the soul and that is on page 571, Esoteric Healing. 

Beta:   ... the eye of the soul can and does transmit energy to the ajna centre and is in itself the agent before the fourth initiation of the spiritual triad.

Alpha:   OK.   What have we just differentiated the eye of the soul from?  It’s not the third eye?

Beta:   It is like the third eye.  It is not.  Ah ... the ajna centre is like the third eye, or directing agent ... it’s not.  She makes a list at the bottom here.  In the perfected man there is to be found therefore the following distributors ... or distributing agents of energy:  One, the eye of the soul ... agent of the spiritual triad ... between the third and fourth initiation.  Two, the third eye, agent of the soul, love  ... ahh.  Three, the right eye, buddhi ... distributor or buddhic.  Four, the left eye ... conveyer of pure manasic energy.  And then five, the ajna centre ... focusing and directing point of all of these energies.  So the third eye is associated with the ajna but distinct.

Alpha:   OK.   So the five eyes are listed on page 571 and the triadal ... the instrument of the triad is the eye of the soul.  The instrument of the soul. ...

Beta:   ... functioning through the third eye.

Alpha:   ... the instrument of the soul is the third eye. … The third eye is the evocation of three centres ... from DINA II … And altogether we have five eyes.

Delta:   ... the eye of the soul is the eye of the spiritual triad.  The third eye is the eye of the soul.

Alpha:   Yes.  But, the eye of the soul ... We need a location.  And whereas the etheric atmosphere of the pineal gland is considered to be … the third eye.  The etheric pineal gland which .... It’s got to be the conjunction between the glands … a conjunction between the three centres that are found in the head.  And it is a whole magnetic aura in the centre of the head  ... ah, involved with essentially six items ... making the seventh. 

Beta:   It’s true.  It’s when those three ... the three head centres are co-ordinating ... the third eye comes into effect … But the eye of the soul can only function when they are stabilised ...  when they are mastered.

Alpha:   Now it says ... in White Magic that we have at a certain point a downward glancing soul ... in the beginning of the magical process, and not before.  And I assume that the opening of the sixth petal of the egoic lotus signals the possibility of the downward glancing soul.  In other words, the solar angel takes an interest in its ‘man’ at that point.  Now, with the downward glancing soul ... is it the eye of the soul that is operative there?  Is that what the solar angel is seeing through?  Or is it the solar angel ... because don’t forget we just connected the eye of the soul with the spiritual triad.

Beta:   Is it the solar lord?

Alpha:   Is there a difference between a solar lord and a solar angel?

Beta:   ... and a pitris.  Yeah.  I think there are,  have a compilation on that; it certainly demands discussion. …

Alpha:   … we better get into those differentiations at some point. … have to get Beta’s finishing of this question about the other 48, the other ajna 48. He’s saying that 48 petals in the ajna corresponds to the 48 personality-related petals in the five lower centres.  And he is saying ... from some other source come 48.

Gamma:   No, I  don’t see that.  You know ... we have shown that if 48 is a division of petals of the five centres lower than the ajna centre … the 48 must be another relation from the (inaudible).  That’s what I am saying.

Alpha:   I was trying to say the same thing but we don’t know.  There is a problem here ... because you cannot say that the heart centre, for instance, is only a personality ... For instance, you look at the ajna centre and you say ... half of it is matter and half of it is spirit ... maybe ... and the juncture point in the centre is maybe soul ... or, from another point of view ... [interruption]

...  This is just a little interlude in which we are not continuing with the question of centres of the moment.  … we are going to look at a couple of points in question number one ....or it would be topic number one. But lets just ask the question of ourselves, What do we think a dimension is?   Dimension.  We began by discussing the planes.  We talked about planes as related to the third aspect prakriti, and co-operating always with the second aspect.  Now come the question ... a dimension. …

Gamma:   I am not sure that we have really solved that first question because ...  between the matter aspect and the consciousness aspect, the matter aspect seems to be a link to deva .... is that what you are saying? …

Alpha:   It seems to me that every unit of life in cosmos has three aspects to deal with always.  And I think the difference between a deva and another type of unit ... light unit ... is a question of emphasis.  In other words, that devas are monads.  The devas have consciousness.  In other words, the devas are spirits.  The devas have consciousness.  But, it is particularly within the third aspect of divinity that their greatest expression is found.  In other words, their bodies are such that they are differentiated from human units.  They are more subtle ... pliant ... mouldable.  They are no different from a man.  There is not one unit of life in all of cosmos that is different from a man.

Delta:   Doesn’t he though make a certain distinction saying that humanity corresponds to the chakras of the planets whereas the devas and all the other existences are more the body?

Alpha:   OK.   He ‘may’.  But, a specific one that I just remembered is that the deva and human units correspond to the chakras ... whereas as the other forms of elemental life and maybe some of the lower devas correspond to ...  But those devas that are equivalent and parallel to the human being are corresponding to the cells in a heavenly man.  Now, whatever a heavenly man may be ....  A heavenly man may be what is called a regent of a chain.  Or, a heavenly man may be a whole planetary logos.  …

Delta:   Let’s go back to that page we were on in Cosmic Fire, page 860 ...  Let me just put closure on this page 356 Cosmic Fire ..... the following quote:  “The human and deva units on the upward arc, who are the cells in His body, go to the formation of the centres, and not to the remainder of the cellular vital substance of His vehicles.”

So, going back to the tiers of twelve petals.  … let’s-re read this ....

(tape paused)

Alpha:   Speaking of the egoic lotus, I ran into a statement which may correct a point of view that I was propagating.  That point of view was that the first initiation could occur in relation to the opening of the fifth petal ... the latter stage.  I now conclude that the entry onto the path can occur in relation to the opening of the fifth petal and that the strenuous pursuit of the path will occur in relation to the sixth petal.  But that the first initiation itself might not occur until the opening of the seventh petal.

Delta:   That implies the will.

Alpha:   Exactly.  And I could show you the reference because of which I have changed my opinion.  …

Beta:   That is interesting.  DK also says that of the 700, 77 incarnations only take you on the probationary path.  And only as far as the first five petals unfolded.

Alpha:   The probationary path.   And the first five petals unfolded.  The 777, or the 700?

Beta:   777.

Delta:   Let me ask a question.  This is probably a mistaken statement so, correct me in how it is mistaken.  There is one petal pretty much unfolded per root race?  ... more or less.

Alpha:   My impression is ... no, because the majority of well meaning men and women of today’s world ... have only the first two petals of the knowledge tier unfolded.  It is as bad as that.

Delta:   And not the love tier?

Alpha:  Not much.  Well I mean, there might be some vibration ... but I can show you the reference to the lotuses of Brahman ... and why that should be so.

Delta:   I think this is a whole other topic ... elaborative of the number of petals unfolded and the indication of what level of evolution the persons ...

Alpha:   OK.   Well then we have to remember to come back to this because I want to demonstrate that he says point blank that it is … petals seven, eight and nine, which I used to think went much higher.   I always knew that nine was equated with the third initiation but I never realised that the whole sacrifice tier equates with the initiation process and that I was forcibly impressed with on my last reading.

Delta:   So could we say that initiation one would correspond with the first sacrifice petal, that initiation two ... the second, and initiation three ... the third petal. At which the point the central bud would start unfolding.

Alpha:   That is how I understand it ...Ah, here it is, Let me read it on page 543 Cosmic Fire: 

“The man, in terms of human endeavour, has achieved his goal. He has passed through the three Halls and in each has transferred that which he gained therein to the content of his consciousness; he has in ordered sequence developed and opened the petals of the lotus–first opening the lower three, which involves a process covering a vast period of time. Then the second series of petals are opened, during a period of time covering his participation intelligently in world affairs until he enters the spiritual kingdom at the first Initiation; and a final and briefer period wherein the three higher or inner ring of petals are developed and opened.”

Delta:   That is pretty straight forward.

Alpha:   That is as straight forward as it can be and I am amazed that I overlooked it.  I probably overlooked it earlier because of the discussion of the importance of the fifth petal.  And its connection with actual soul interaction between the personality and the soul.

Gamma:   I am not sure that the ‘first’ initiation is the first ... and not the third.

Alpha:   Yeah,  OK. ... but the thing that diverts me from thinking that that is the case is that he talks about the man participating intelligently in world affairs and nothing spiritual at all.  Where as the beginning of even he first preliminary initiation is definitely involved with years and years of pervious spiritual aspiration.

Beta:   This could be when he is participating ‘intelligently’ ... instead of just participating in world affairs.  But, because he said  ...

(end of side 2A)

Alpha:   So this is side two of tape number two.  And we are for the moment continuing our discussion of the unfoldment of the egoic lotus on page 543.  This not a full discussion of the egoic lotus.  It s a bit of a side line.  We are talking about the three inner petals ....not the synthesising petals but the sacrifice petals ...and whether in fact they correlate with the beginning of the spiritual life and the first initiation.  Or whether, as earlier thought, the later stages of petal number five opening corresponds with the first preliminary  initiation.

Delta:   Well, what do you make of page 696 ...  a paragraph that reads as follows:

“On the buddhic plane, when flashing forth at initiation, this number signifies the full development of the fifth principle or quality, the completed cycle of the Ego upon the five Rays under the Mahachohan, and the assimilation of all that is to be learned upon them, and the attainment–not only of full self-consciousness, but also of the consciousness of the group wherein a man is found. It infers the full unfoldment of five of the egoic petals, leaving four to open before the final initiation.”

Alpha:  ... rereads: “On the buddhic plane, when flashing forth at initiation, this number signifies the full development of the fifth principle or quality, the completed cycle of the Ego upon the five Rays under the Mahachohan ....”  

You know what is interesting here is that, in a way, only at the fourth initiation could the five rays of the Mahachohan be completed because the five rays relate to all manner of third aspect development.  And you don’t even complete that until the causal body is fully developed.  So this is what concerns me. 

“... the five Rays under the Mahachohan, and the assimilation of all that is to be learned upon them, and the attainment–not only of full self-consciousness, but also of the consciousness of the group wherein a man is found.” 

... What kind of consciousness does that require?

Beta:  Well ... group consciousness to a certain extent ... but the consciousness of one’s ray.

Alpha:   So, certainly ... What initiation are we talking about?

Delta:   I would imagine we are talking about the second initiation when the person has a buddhic group sense.  And the final initiation referred today would be the third.

Alpha:   But the five pointed star does not flash forth at the second initiation. …

Beta:   It can flash forth but it may not be stabilised.

Delta:   In the next sentence it says that: “The five pointed star at the initiation on the mental plane flashes out above the head of the initiate. This concerns the first three initiations which are undergone in the causal vehicle.”

Alpha:   That is a point.  Why are we making such a thing of the five pointed star at the third initiation.

Delta:   I don’t know.  I am just bringing this up in terms of something I am very puzzled with.

Beta:   The five pointed star is … the key note of the fifth initiation.

Alpha:   ... but he differentiates between the  five pointed star, the “I” in the triangle, and the face-to-faceness of the fifth initiation.  Three ways of seeing the lord.  Three ways of seeing Sanat Kumara.  I have no problem thinking that somehow a fiveness ... which indicates the kingdom of the soul and the initiator and the power of the soul is involved at the first three initiations.  That doesn’t trouble me.  Even Capricorn is involved at five initiations .... as a sign.  But what does trouble me is that it infers the full unfoldment (maybe the word ‘full’ is what is important) of five of the egoic petals leaving four to open before the final initiation.  And I must say the word ‘final’ initiation is troubling also.

Gamma:   What is a final initiation?

Epsilon:   I am not clear if he speaks when he speak of those initiation if he counts from one, two, three ....  or starting at three ...

Alpha:   Well, none of us are clear about that.

Delta:   Well, let me draw out another quote.  On page 738.

“The period between egoic Cycles. Herein is hid the mystery of the 777 incarnations and concerns the relation of the unit to his group on the egoic plane, prior to the unfoldment of the fifth petal. It concerns man in the period between the savage stage and that of the disciple, when he is an average man but still in the two Halls.”

Alpha:   What are the two halls ... ignorance and learning? … “It concerns man in the period between the savage stage and that of the disciple, when he is an average man but still in the two Halls.” Well, wait a second.  Does it go up to the stage of disciple?  Is that the idea?

Delta:   I don’t know … I am just taking the 777 to be metaphoric.  Seven hundred incarnations as a personality.  Seventy as a soul.  Seven as a monad. 

Alpha:   That is one way to take it but here is another way.  The number of earth is 777.  Now it is very interesting that maybe, in a way, these are earth incarnations and after 770 we gave to go ‘solar’  You know so 777 takes you so far but after that it is either 555 ... you know, indicating Venus perhaps ... or some number that indicates the sun and and/or Venus.  So the point is this takes you up to number five.  The question is, it does not look like initiations, per se, are included up to number five ... does it?  From this point of view.

Beta:   ... Well, there is a difference between he probationary path and accepted discipleship and I always think that probationary is being fully ‘second’, but an accepted disciple usually between ‘second and third’ ... somewhere between the two.  This sort of implies that you achieve the ‘third’ after you’re completed work in the first two halls.

Alpha:   I would say that that is definitely true.  To me the hall of wisdom suggests the two threshold initiations and the third initiation. 

Gamma:   ... in the three halls?

Alpha:   Well, you have ignorance, learning and wisdom.

Gamma:   Yeah, and when you enter the realm what initiation do you think it would be?

Alpha:   I don’t think of an initiation.  I think Learning is what you would call a constructive life.  In other words, let me put it like this.  Perhaps Ignorance is involved very much with the first tier of petals ... just looking at it broadly.  And Leaning is involved with the second tier of petals ... at least up to a certain point.  And then Wisdom really involves the initiatory process. 

But, I want to ask here: Prior to the unfoldment of the fifth petal (then, it concerns man in the period of 777 incarnations, up to the unfoldment of the fifth petal, “prior to the unfoldment of the fifth petal”, so, all the way until it is unfolded)  “concerns man in the period between the savage stage and that of the disciple” ... where, under normal circumstances during the 777, he is “an average man but still in the two Halls.”  So here is what this suggests to me ... that one can become a disciple at the end of the unfoldment of the fifth petal.

Delta:   Or even before that.  Let me throw out another page.  757.  (The references for the fifth petal are 696, 757 and 738.)  So, on 757 ... he is talking about the second method of overshadowing of the disciple:

“Second. The overshadowing of the chela during his work (such as lecturing, writing, or teaching), and his illumination for service. He will be conscious of this, though perhaps unable to explain it, and will seek more and more to be available for use, rendering himself up in utter selflessness to the inspiration of His Lord. This is effected via the chela's Ego, the force flowing through his astral permanent atom; and it is only possible when the fifth petal is unfolded.”  

So, to me this would imply a second degree initiate. 

Alpha:   What about just plain discipleship?

Beta:   That is accepted discipleship.  I think that is like an extraneous factor which means you have been accepted into a group of some type or other to do some type of work.  You could be at any grade.  But you are at a grade sufficient to participate in that group work.  And it has nothing to do with technical status.  It is only practical status.

Alpha:   RG, in his chart, suggested that accepted discipleship (whether he is correct or not correct) occurs at what he calls 1.5 ... between the first and the second initiation.  Now, every one of the Tibetan’s disciples in his groups were technically considered accepted disciples and he said so in his words to LTS-K, who had not yet taken the first initiation.  So this is really peculiar.  He was still an accepted disciple but he had not [yet taken the first] ... He was in danger of stepping on the black path in his previous incarnation so DK was protecting him in this.

Beta:   It still suggests that the first is a blind for the third initiation.

Alpha:   But, he was no where near that. …  He financed the work.  As a third ray soul he financed the work.  So DK said ... ‘we are not ungrateful’.  So he said ... ‘you are being kept in this group because you need it.’ 

The point is simply this.  That the majority of students in DK’s group were preparing for the second initiation and they were all accepted disciples.  There were 2, 3, 4, or 5 preparing for the third initiation.  So this brings us back to the question of when the fifth petal unfolds.  Does that make a disciple of you?

Delta:   Let me read just one more paragraph ... on the sixth petal.  This is a pretty advanced state for the sixth petal, the same page 757; we just talked about the fifth petal ... now it is the sixth petal:  

Third. The conscious co-operation of the chela is necessitated in the third method of overshadowing. In this case he will (with full knowledge of the laws of his being and nature) surrender himself and step out of his physical body, handing it over for the use of the Great Lord or one of His Masters. This is only possible in the case of a chela who has brought all the three lower bodies into alignment, and necessitates the unfolding of the sixth petal. By an act of conscious will he renders up his body, and stands aside for a specific length of time.

Gamma:    To do that I think that must be another.  Not everyone of this group can do that ...

Alpha:   No.  Cancer, Pisces, Neptune ... all these things are correlated with the number six.  Mediumship.  This is a very rare ... So not everybody who unfolds the sixth petal will or can do this.

Delta:   But the sixth petal is the Will petal though.

Gamma:   What I am saying is that you are pretty well advanced to do that.

Alpha:   Well, you know ... this is how I always say it.  That the sixth petal correlated with the possibility of the second initiation. 

Epsilon:   There is a whole paragraph … pages on initiation and the petals, at page 868. … particularly on the sixth, on page 869.

Delta:   What about this simple thought.  That on the third subplane from the top in the mental plane is where the knowledge petals are found, and it corresponds to the first initiation.  The second subplane from the top corresponds to the love petals and second initiation.  And the uppermost subplane of the mental is the will aspect corresponding to the third initiation.  And once you have taken that you are already into the buddhic.

Alpha:   OK.   It is almost that way.  I think there is a slight variation.

Beta:   Well there is his statement that generally the egoic body is always found on the third subplane and it only goes up to the second at the fourth initiation, when the inner three petals (the bud petals) are about to open.

Alpha:   ... I have a different reference, or a different idea ... that when the initiatory process begins, in general, the egoic lotus refocuses on the second subplane.  And that when the third initiation occurs, there is, as you suggest, a refocussing on the third subplane.

Beta:   He is using two and three as blinds.  One, two, and three are blinds for three, four and five.

Alpha:   Three, four and five of what?

Epsilon:   Initiations.

Beta:   Yeah.  Because he was working with a large group.  You couldn’t tell this person he was on the first initiation and this person is on the fourth.  He had to always to keep it within one and two ... so he would say almost all his disciples were first or second degree ... and there wouldn’t be warfare.

Alpha:   But, maybe they were.

Epsilon:   Maybe it was three and four.

Beta:   I think they were one and four myself.

(tape paused)

Alpha:   … He says you are now manifesting along the line of the first ray and since the first ray represents your personality equipment that tells you that tells you something about the degree of soul influence you are experiencing.  If so … the man had a first ray personality, first ray mind, first ray physical body.  And he says ... the tremendous emotional stress you are going through at this time is not just the normal emotional problems of a disciple, they have to do with the fact that you are taking the second initiation.  So, this was a person who lived his life feeling as through he was passing through the crucifixion. 

And then, DK says we always over rate ourselves. Alice Bailey herself was an initiate of the third degree.  You know, verging on the kind of renunciation that would make of her a fourth degree initiate.  Blavatsky was an initiate of the fourth degree, verging on the possibility of being Master Blavatsky which Helena Roerich says she became in her next incarnation.  And had since, quote/unquote, made her way to the central stronghold.  So the question is this business of how people rate themselves.  It is problematic. 

Delta:   If someone is on the buddhic plane I think of them as having some measure of the second initiation.  Of course there are very advanced second degree initiates and there are very rudimentary second degree initiates.  And I also can’t see how someone who was a second degree initiate would be in the middle of silly spiritual warfare.

Alpha:   The second degree simple represents the point at which the spiritual will can finally dominate the chaotic emotions and idealism.

Delta:   At that point ... at the second degree ... don’t you realise your unity with the one life to some real degree ... and to sit around and carry on really major disputes with others disciples ... I am not talking about someone on the left hand path  ... but …

Alpha:   I would say that at the second degree … because of Jupiter, Neptune and Venus precisely what you say can begin to happen.  And buddhic influence upon the astral body can begin to prevail over Martian idealism.  None-the-less, in the process of taking that degree, you have a tremendous warfare.

Delta:   Well, there might be an upset, but I can’t imagine actually carrying on long-term warfare as a second degree initiate.

Gamma:   ....with himself.

Delta:   Well, with himself, yes.  But not with others … cause they must realise that that person is part of the group; How can you have warfare?

Beta:   It is the warfare of idealism, fanaticism.

Alpha:   That is right.  Piscean.

Gamma:   Scorpio rising.

Alpha:   That’s right.  A lot of it depends not only on whether you are a second degree but what are the rays of the person taking the second degree.  If the rays of the person taking the second degree are sixth ray ... this man was a sixth ray soul ... taking the second degree.  That is a whole different thing.  The fifth ray souls and others pass the second degree much easier, easier for the mentally polarised type.  He says it is the most difficult initiation for people to pass through (at one point he says that), more difficult than the crucifixion. 

Gamma:   He says it is the most difficult, actually.

Delta:   Well, let me repeat back what I am hearing you saying if I am understanding you correctly.  That, depending on someone’s ray make up that even if they were a second degree initiate ... (which would imply some authentic buddhic plane contact and some sense of unity with the group and ashram) ... that some of these people would actually be willing to carry on long-term warfare with others in the group....?

Alpha:   I am not saying that.  I am saying that ... having passed the second degree (this man had not) ... having passed the second degree the sort of thing you are talking about would be much less likely because there we would be a Jupiterian, Venusian, Neptunian tranquilisation of the astral body.  Idealism would be there without emotional antagonism.  OK.  

But how did we get on to this? …

Delta:   We were taking about the blinds.

Beta:   Yeah.  Everyone over rates themselves.  But the question remains for me ... the number of petals that are unfolded ... the tiers involved and the initiation.  And that is separate from this self assessment.

Alpha:   In the white magical process the soul is not interested in the personality until the fifth petal begins to stir.  What I am gathering from this reading is that a disciple (on page 738) … can [still] exist after the fifth petal is unfolded. I also think that by following a sequence you will find that the first petal relates to the physicality of the person, the second petal to an embryonic love nature (which is physicalized), the third petal to the possibility of a mental apprehension of life.

Beta:   These are the knowledge petals, right? … But almost everyone is brought in with two knowledge petals open.  Except in the really undeveloped ...

Alpha:   No.  Only lunar.  Only those who individualised on the moon chain are brought in that way.  Because I will show you.

Beta:   Are you sure?  That would be astonishing.

Alpha:   OK.  Let me just finish, then I think I will show you.  The fourth petal, to me, correlates with the integration of the personality (and there are very few personalities in the world, relatively speaking).  I will give you what I think.  The fifth petal at first [relates] to the achievement of personality domination, and later the tilting of the balance in a Libra-like way (since it is a Libra-Leo petal, middle point) to the unfoldment of spiritual consciousness and the possibility of stepping on the path.  Because, what is the use before the fifth petal opens?  It says that the soul won’t even be interested until the fifth petal has tipped the balance and then I look at the path leading up to the first initiation as being the later fifth and sixth petals.  Path of aspiration and discipline ... number six, leading to application of the law of sacrifice and the possibility of taking initiations in the causal body on the mental plane because the seventh petal is now unfolding (these are the mental petals). 

… I have taught it differently, frankly, I used to teach that the fifth petal itself in the later phases indicated the possibility of the first initiation, and that the sixth petal indicated the possibility of the second, and that the whole tier of mental petals involve the third initiation – culminating at petal number nine, third initiation.

Beta:   That is what I always assumed myself.

Alpha:   Though basically we agree, as we have petal number nine as the third initiation, we are just in disagreement as to the unfoldment in between.  …

Beta:   Except a disciple I always thought as 2.5.

Epsilon:   You want to read page 870:

“At the stage which we are considering (that of the organisation and unfoldment of the first tier of petals), the egoic influence felt at the beginning is but small, but when the three petals become sufficiently active and alive through the energy accumulated and stored up in the ego during the activities of the personal life, a form of initiation then takes place which is a reflection (on a lower plane) of the great manasic initiations.”

Alpha:   Which ever they are ...

“The energy in the outer circle of petals causes it to spring apart from the next circle, and to unfold. This threefold energy becomes interactive and a very definite stage is thus reached. This series of initiations is seldom recognised within the physical brain consciousness owing to the relatively inchoate stage of the bodies, and the unresponsiveness of the brain matter. Yet they are nevertheless initiations ...”

Epsilon:   I don’t know what he means …

“... of a definite though less important character, and they involve primarily the display (within the personal life of the man) of an intelligent recognition of his group relationships on earth. This recognition is frequently selfish in character, as, for instance, that which the union worker displays, but it is indicative of group interplay.

A similar process takes place when the second circle of petals is organised and ready for unfoldment. This time the World Teacher, the Master and the Ego concerned are co-operating, for these smaller initiations deal with the love nature, with astral or emotional organisation, and with the recognition (by the man in his personal life) of some form of unselfish love, and of a love for some object, person or ideal which leads to altruistic endeavour, and to the negation of the lower self.

This brings us to the third group of petals or to the unfolding of the will or sacrifice petals, based on intelligent purpose and pure love. The force in this group calls in a different factor, that of the Manu, as well as the force of the Bodhisattva, and the desired effect is produced through the full co-operation of the fully awakened Ego, aided by his own Master (if he is evolving in a cycle wherein hierarchical effort for humanity takes the form it does in this present one), and the Manu. Eventually (after the second Initiation) the Lord of the World comes in as a factor – the Lord of world power, fully expressing itself in love.”

Beta:   Initiation with a capital “I” again.

Alpha:   We would have to go through the books.

Epsilon:   Second Initiation ... you mean it would be the fourth?

Beta:      It can’t be.  It doesn’t seem possible.  So much sorting needs to be done here.

Alpha:   But you know this book is very bad when it comes to capitalisation.

Epsilon:   Are they systematic?  He says capital “I” and little ‘I’.

Beta:   Well, yes ... if he says after the third circle of petals, and then he says ‘eventually’, he could mean in the far distant future.  And he is saying we know that the Lord of the World comes and presided in the third, right?

Alpha:   Earlier.  Earlier than this if you presume the second initiation to be the fourth.  It is a problem.  Basically we are in agreement that the fifth petal signifies the usefulness of the personality to the soul.  And that the ninth petal signifies the completion. The complete unfolding of the ninth petal signifies the completion of the third initiation which he says.  So we are in agreement of those two markers.  And I also feel that the fixed cross, or the possibility of stepping upon the fixed cross, may either start from number five to nine ... or number seven to nine.  The fixed cross can only be activated with respect to the life if there is a spiritual intent.

Beta:   Third initiation?

Alpha:  No, the fixed cross is discipleship up to the third initiation and I think ...

Gamma:   When it is really completed, then you take the fourth initiation.

Alpha:   The forth initiation is the no man’s land.  The fourth initiation is not fixed cross ... not cardinal cross.  We have read that before, right?

Delta:   I have been taking the third initiation as cardinal cross.

Alpha:   It is too soon.  He may hint at that in certain ways ... but other places he says that on the fourth initiation the man has not yet mounted the cardinal cross. … He says it is a no man’s land, fourth initiation: it is neither this or that.

Beta:   … of the two wheels I always assumed that the cardinal comes in at the fifth.  It is a bit vague.

Alpha:   I think ... after the fourth the cardinal grows in possibility.  Here is why: the first cosmic initiation is the fifth initiation.  And essentially the cardinal cross is a cosmic cross.  Now, here is why the fixed cross should be considered applicable until the fourth initiation …

Delta:   So the fixed cross is applicable from the first initiation until the fourth.

Alpha:   ... although he seems to indicate some fundamental transition towards cardinality, or towards the will ... occurs at number three [initiation].  Nevertheless the causal body is still a third aspect.  From the Solar Logoic point of view the causal body is still matter and because it is matter it is still related to this fixed area of consciousness. …

… you have got to compare two things.  One is the Solar Logos and the other is the Planetary Logos ... or we can call them ‘Heavenly Man’ for the moment even though that may be disputed.  The Solar Logos’ effectiveness ... or lowest demonstration upon the cosmic physical plane is the buddhic plane and that’s it.  Anything below that for the Solar Logos is considered ‘not a principle’ ... for the Solar Logos.   That is not so for the Planetary Logos.  The lowest demonstration for the Planetary Logos is the higher three levels of the manasic plane.

Beta:   Solar Logos’s have anchors in the manasic plane through the Planetary Logos ... indirectly.   And in terms of the Solar Logos’s incarnation process.

Alpha:   OK.  ... if you look at the Planetary Logos as an agent of the Solar Logos you can say there are anchors.  But there is a fundamental difference between these two kinds of being.  And what I am trying to say is, whereas for the Planetary Logos matter is that which exists on the eighteen subplanes, for the Solar Logos matter is that which exists on the twenty-one subplanes.  So in a funny kind of way the period between the third and fourth initiation is like a change over from the planetary to the solar scheme.  It is like moving towards the possibility of real solar initiation.  We are told that the third initiation is the first solar initiation.  And in a way it is.  But a man is not even a soul until the fourth initiation has taken place.  He says that in DINA II, about souls who have taken the fourth initiation.  In other words they are free triads, so they are souls.  There is some funny kind of transition thing that goes on there between number three and four where the synthesis petals open up.

Delta:   This is a little bit off the topic, but do you think that the Sidereal Zodiac comes in to play at the third initiation or the fifth?  Given what you just said, in other words, when someone becomes a solar being, of course they are affected by all the stars, not just intrasolar.

Beta:   I always assume third.

Alpha:   Nevertheless, Blavatsky, the example of Blavatsk … [we have a tropical] reading on her, he says, ‘and you know how important Libra  is in Blavatsky’s chart.’   There is no Libra Sidereally.

Gamma:   It would be what?

Delta:   Virgo.

Alpha:   OK.   So what has happened so far is that we have got about four really interesting references that talk about unfoldment of different petals relative to different states of consciousness.  And the main question up in the air is ... how high a state of consciousness does five petals unfolding indicate?  Does it indicate really a significant level.  Now what is the one ...

Beta:   She associates it with the probationary path.  Page 828. First, on page 825:  “In these three circles of petals lies concealed another clue to the mystery of the 777 incarnations.”  Then, on page 828: “Third. The Seven  incarnations. These are those passed upon the Probationary Path.”

Alpha:   OK.   Well, that  would fit.  If, let us say, we have a full disciple at the end of the unfoldment of the fifth petal, then the seven petals, the last seven incarnations symbolically, have to be involved with the unfolding of the fifth petal completely.  So that is probationary. 

Beta:   For me that is two and a half. 

Alpha:   And now another thing that has just come up is the idea that a person is on the probationary path when they are still a second degree initiate, or two and a half degrees.  Whereas other people feel that a probationary path can even precede the first initiation, that you are tested out by Vulcan and Pluto, so to speak, and if you pass through that test you can step onto the first initiation, at which you are in the very least on the path of discipleship. 

Beta:   Maybe this is ray factor of the people analysing it ...

Alpha:   So what is the major discrepancy?  The major discrepancy is that we are considering probation as possibly extending much farther into and beyond the second initiation than others consider it. 

Beta:   We know many disciples, and most disciples are not conscious of their status, they do not know they are disciples.  So this would indicate to me planetary initiation.  There is a question about accepted discipleship, how far accepted?  If you are an accepted disciple or chela (that is the standard term), then you have six stages of chelaship and accepted disciple means that you are in the periphery, you are allowed to be part of the ashram.

Alpha:   … a factor on the periphery of the ashram. … Chela on the thread would give access to the master. 

Gamma:   Well, the term aspirant sometimes seems to go to the fourth initiation.  It goes very high. 

Alpha:   Aspirant to what?  Disciple to what?  Tested how? 

Delta:   I would like to just possibly, partially descend from your correlation’s with the initiations, though I do realise DK does give Pluto and Vulcan for the first and Jupiter, Neptune and Venus for the second, in places.  I think, from my perceptions, I like the idea of Uranus and the seventh ray ruling the first initiation, and Neptune and the sixth ray ruling the second initiation.  So to me, the first initiation shows a responsiveness to Uranus.  Somehow the person realises there’s a higher vibration and they become attuned to some kind of revolution within themselves. … So, for me, that is more seventh ray.

Beta:   I see that in Uranus Moon.

Delta:   Yeah.  And then the second initiation I see more as sixth ray/Neptune where the person is in touch with their buddhic vehicle meaning the unified field that we are all in.

Alpha:   Don’t forget that Mars requires that an arousal which must be subdued.  Therefore Mars and the sixth ray may figure well into the second initiation ... to arouse that which must be subdued.  For instance, classically, Mars oppose Venus—Neptune—Jupiter.  You know, that kind of scheme.

Beta:   The person who ran the ____ from the ULT is gung ho Blavatsky, intolerant of any other position, and has Moon/Taurus  opposite Neptune/Scorpio, Mars in Sagittarius, Sagittarius rising, Sun conjunct Saturn, there’s all that Scorpio/Sagittarius stuff.

Alpha:   There is a lot in line with what you say.  There is a strong possibility that the ray which rules initiation may be very present in the horoscope of the person taking that initiation.  Like for instance what you have just spelled out is a Mars—Neptune—Moon T-square, something like that.  In other words that the person taking the initiation is going to have to be characterised by that particular ray.  The horoscope will often times bring it in to accentuation.  Not that that is the only way that you can read the presence of the ray, but it could happen.  Not everybody that has got Mars—Moon, for instance is going to be taking the third initiation. 

Beta:   No, I am thinking that what you’re tuning in on are the blinds for the sun and moon.  For the moon particularly, probably for the planetary initiations (it may be the sun for the solar) but you would have Uranus, Neptune, Saturn. Well, I don’t know how it works, Uranus, Neptune, Saturn, or Vulcan for the Moon.  Yeah, it is that third ruler I can’t quite sort out because I see Jupiter, Saturn on the Solar level and I see Vulcan (inaudible) the moon for the second ...

Alpha:   Right.  So the moon association becomes very important.

Beta:   So its not necessarily the initiation but quite often it is.  People fall into those categories before initiation process, I think. …

Delta:   I think it could work on a couple of levels because he does say Moon and Mars brings out this fearful conflict resulting in the third initiation.  I see the third initiation as being more under the fifth ray with Venus, but if someone is taking the second initiation to me that means that, like Robertson would say, you have got fifty-one percent control but the other forty-nine percent still might be going crazy So, in other words, the Moon and Mars just completely smashes out your solar plexus.

Alpha:   Let me show you another reference about Moon and Mars which is terrible important, which should be always conjoined with the reference on page71; this is on page 246 of Esoteric Psychology I:  At the third initiation: “... the Moon and Mars struggle to assume ascendancy, and there is his battle-ground, hence at the great Transfiguration, the body is “transfigured” as the indication of triumph.”

So, what he has brought out here is that Moon and Mars in their own right and apart from any esoteric ruler act as an opponent ‘first’.  The method to victory over them is to transmute Mars into higher Mars and to substitute whatever for the Moon.  In other words, there is this huge dweller issue that occurs at the third degree that Moon—Mars symbolises in its own right ... without Vulcan, or Uranus or any of that present.

Delta:   But Neptune has to be there.  And to me it suggests ... those very words suggest the involvement of the solar plexus ... the total transmutation of the solar plexus where it becomes green instead of red (or pink). 

Beta:   You mean the downward pointing of the red triangle and upward pointing green. 

Alpha:   ... upward pointing green, I can see green as related to, somehow, the domination through the manasic aspect of the solar plexus.  Whether it would have to be Neptune or just the fact that Saturn becomes terrible important at the third degree.

Gamma:   What is the colour of the throat centre?  Green?

Alpha:   Silvery-blue. 

Delta:   Wouldn’t it usually be green if you associate the third ray with it.  It is the seventh ray for disciples.

Alpha:   Page 168 of Cosmic Fire gives you the colours, “The throat centre, sixteen petals of a silvery blue, with blue predominating.” 

Delta:   Then that would correspond perhaps with Uranus ruling the throat chakra for advanced disciples.

Beta:   Right, this is the traditional yogic colour, or smoky blue.

Delta:   Silver-blue is a lot of times a Uranian colour, more than a Saturnean colour.  …

Alpha:   See, the question would arise, that, given well advanced disciples – and you know they don’t call you an advanced disciple anymore when you are an initiate of the third degree, they call you an Initiate, right?  Discipleship, per se, stops in the conventional sense of the description at the third degree, except when you use the idea a third degree initiate as a disciple of some kind, and so is the fourth degree.  That is not how we usually consider it.

Delta:   This is according to Leadbeater here.  Leadbeater might have just been saying it in one specific context.

Beta:   I think of Initiate as only applying to the fourth and above and in some rare cases, the end of the third. 

Alpha:   Well the idea is there is a transition that goes on, and the third degree is neither fish nor fowl.  It is very interesting in that respect.  It is the initiation in which the person becomes truly human, he says, and yet the person is not yet a ‘soul’. 

Beta:   Its true, their buddhi doesn’t express thoroughly.  I think at the third you must be still attached to some idealism which has to be destroyed.

Alpha:   “Rich young man”  Ahamkaric.  Self fascinated, still.

Beta:   Ahamkara, not buddhi.  That ties in with the classes of hierarchies. … that is something I want to hand out, a provocative compilation ...

Alpha:   OK.   We’ll deal with that.  Coming back to the quote which started this whole discussion.  “Then, the second series of petals are opened during a period of time during his participation, intelligently in world affairs.”  Page 543, of Cosmic Fire.  That sounds to me like advanced man, intelligent man at some point verging on the spiritual.   “... until he enters the spiritual kingdom at the first Initiation; and a final and briefer period wherein the three higher or inner ring of petals are developed and opened.”

Beta:   OK.   You say he enters the spiritual kingdom at the first initiation.  Is that a capital “I”?

Alpha:   Yes, page 543.  Are you collecting capital “I’s”?

Beta:   No, no, no.  It is just that I am correlating all these things.  I may have something to respond to.

Alpha:   Let me put forward two possibilities here.  The possibilities are that the spiritual kingdom really is the kingdom of the soul entered at the third initiation.  And that somehow, the seventh, eighth and ninth petal are all involved in the unfoldment ...

Tape Three Begins  [Reiterating … ]        

I am proposing two interpretations.  One interpretation is that the first Initiation (with a capital “I”) represents really the third initiation, third planetary, first solar, and that as the third initiation is being prepared for, the seventh, eighth and ninth petals are unfolding.  And that by the time sixth petal has completely unfolded the first two planetary initiations have occurred.  That is one interpretation. … In other words the sixth petal means that the second planetary initiation has been completed.

Delta:   So are we saying that with the fifth petal the first initiation would have been completed?

Alpha:   I would say the later part of the fifth petal frankly.  That is one interpretation. 

Secondly, the next interpretation is that one enters … here we are calling the spiritual kingdom an actual entry into the antechamber of the kingdom of souls, which means the man has a been solarized.  The other interpretation for spiritual kingdom has to do with having been initiated by the Christ at the first planetary initiation.  That would be a second interpretation ... that man has, in fact, entered the spiritual kingdom when Christ has initiated him once.  And the interpretation there would be that the seventh petal would correlate pretty much with the first initiation, the eighth with the second, and the ninth with the third.

Now, corresponding to that and without losing the train of thought, one should turn to page 822 .... where he then says, with regard to “The middle ‘love’ triad”: “Petal 2:  Higher intelligent love on the physical and astral planes.” And “Petal 3:  Loving intelligent sacrifice on the physical and astral planes.”

Now, if we can correlate petal two and petal three with intelligent human living, entering into world affairs, that is the question.  Or whether we should correlate what is just said here with the first and second initiations. 

Looking at the sacrifice petals, the following three statements should either be considered all of them in  relation to the third initiation, or they should be considered in relation to initiation one, two and three respectively.  The first would be petal number seven:  “The Will to sacrifice through knowledge on the mental plane, and thus intelligently to dominate the entire threefold lower man.” Does that refer to a stage of preparing for the third initiation or does it relate to the first initiation?

Delta:   I think it is the third.

Alpha:   OK.   The next, petal two, with regard to “The inner ‘sacrificial’ triad”: “The will to sacrifice through love on the mental plane, and thus to serve.”Does that indicate the second initiation or a stage of preparation for the third? 

Finally, petal three: “The utter sacrifice of all forever.”  I don’t think there is any question that that relates to the third initiation.  As a matter of fact it is so severe that it should go beyond the third initiation. 

Now, if I may, to keep the train of thought, refer to page 540.  The following should be considered in two ways.  What I am about to say either relates to intelligent humanity participating in world affairs, or it relates to initiation one and two.  So does the following relate to the first initiation, or does it relate to intelligent participation in world affairs?  [With regard to Petal number five, “The Petal of Love for the astral plane:  

“ … unfoldment is brought about through the process of gradually transmuting the love of the subjective nature or of the Self within. This has a dual effect and works through on to the physical plane in many lives of turmoil, of endeavour and of failure as a man strives to turn his attention to the love of the Real.”

Is that the average man participating intelligently in world affairs or is that the possibility of first degree initiate?          Then, petal number six with regard to “The Petal of Sacrifice for the astral plane:

“ … unfoldment is brought about by the attitude of man as he consciously endeavours to give up his own desires for the sake of his group. His motive is still somewhat a blind one, and still coloured by the desire for a return of that which he gives and for love from those he seeks to serve, but it is of a much higher order than the blind sacrifice to which a man is driven by circumstances as is the case in the earlier unfoldment.”

So the question, does this relate to initiation number two or intelligent participation in the world?

Gamma:   The third.

Delta:   I think it is number two. 

Alpha:   You think it is number two.  Yeah.  OK.   Remember, it is still selfish.  It is still selfish. Now look, this is how I always thought it was, but I was lead, by page 543 that started all the trouble. 

Next.  The question now arises, in relation number seven whether we are talking about a preparation for the third initiation or whether we are talking about initiation number one.  Page 541, petal seven. 

“The Petal of Knowledge for the mental plane; its unfoldment marks the period wherein the man consciously utilises all that he has gained or is gaining under the law for the definite benefit of humanity.”

Alpha:   Is that the first initiation or is that a stage of preparation for the third?

Beta:   It means he is a rich young man; he has to have something to give.

Alpha:   OK.   He is not there yet.  That is your opinion that he is a rich young man.

Beta:   Well, it is at the beginning stages.

Alpha:   Beginning stages, he is consciously utilising all that he has gained.  Petal number eight, page 541: 

“The Petal of Love on the mental plane is unfolded through the conscious steady application of all the powers of the soul to the service of humanity with no thought of return nor any desire for reward for the immense sacrifice involved.”

Alpha:   Is that the second initiation?  Or is that preparation for a phase of the third?

Beta:   I think it must be a phase of the third because the person’s highly developed.  They have a sense of idealism that is going to have to be sacrificed.  They can still be fanatic.

Alpha:   Uh-ha.  What do you think?

Delta:   I think it is the third. 

Alpha:   You think it is related to the third.  You realise we are saying a very interesting thing here. 

Delta:   Again, I might be misunderstanding the basis of this discussion, but to me the first initiation means the person is fully awake.  They realise that something is going on greater than themselves; there is a greater whole.  Often times the throat chakra “goes off”, they start telling everyone about it, not living it so much but they are talking about it.

Alpha:   Sure.

Delta:   But still it is very, very real to them, but they are not necessarily embodying it.  And the second, the the person is trying to embody it and becomes the leader of some project, group or some sort of exemplar – and either applies to a great level because you know how advanced they are in the second....

Beta:   But they don’t work intelligently, necessarily.

Delta:   They work intelligently, but there is still some selfishness.  They are still struggling with themselves.  But they realise there is a unity there.  Whereas with the third, I think they can implement fully via their will and their identity goes into it much greater identity.

Alpha:   OK.   We probably have no questions at all about this ninth petal: 

“... demonstrates as the predominant bias of the soul as seen in a series of many lives spent by the initiate prior to his final emancipation. He becomes in his sphere the "Great Sacrifice."

Alpha:   That is the ninth petal, page 542, the petal of sacrifice on the mental plane.  No question.  That is consummating the third.  So the real question to answer here is on page 540 and 541, when  we discovered on top of page 541 that there was selfishness.  “He consciously endeavours to give up his own desires for the sake of his group.”  That is not the man participating intelligently in the world and just trying to be group oriented; this is what a second degree initiate would do.

Beta:   Oh yeah.  Intelligent world work just means its below the first degree, I think.  Well it depends.  He says “the second series of petals are opened, during a period of time covering his participation intelligently”, that is so vague: “in world affairs until he entered the spiritual kingdom”.  So that means “at the first initiation”; he enters the spiritual kingdom at the first initiation.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Now.  But that is the point.  Is that the first initiation the first initiation, or is it the third? (That is page 543, the problem paragraph that set off my whole inquiry about these petals.)

Beta:   So, I’ve got a couple quotes.  697-698:

“The fifth or spiritual kingdom is entered when the units of the fourth kingdom have succeeded in vitalizing the fifth spirilla in all the atoms of the threefold lower man; when they have unfolded three of the egoic petals and are in process of unfolding the fourth and fifth and when they are becoming conscious of the pranic force of the Heavenly Man.”

So this means that five spirillae are have been vitalised.  It does not mean they are fully active.

Alpha:   OK, but you realise that this contradicts what we seem to be saying.  This is saying that the spiritual kingdom is entered at the unfoldment of the fifth petal instead of the seventh. 

Delta:   That is why I am saying it is the first initiation. He finally realises that he is more than just a fortuitous combination of atoms; he realises he is connected with a greater thing.

Alpha:   I grant you that.  But what I am trying to say is that if the spiritual kingdom means the third initiation we all know that the third initiation does not occur at the unfolding of five petals.  And, here what Beta has just read seems to suggest that the spiritual kingdom is entered at the unfolding of five petals.

Beta:   So maybe it is the first initiation, the first planetary initiation when you enter the spiritual kingdom.  Is that possible?

Alpha:   Yes.  It is possible.

Delta:   It is like a born-again Christian.  Born again, they realise that something is going on, Christ and all that.  But that is about it.

Alpha:   OK.   He is entering the spiritual kingdom.  It is not the same as being a resident of the spiritual kingdom.

Delta:   Exactly.  There is a difference.  Permanent resident verses somebody who [visits] for a while.

Alpha:   Right now, what Beta is seeming to say is that the fifth, or spiritual, kingdom is entered when the units of the fourth kingdom have succeeded in vitalising the fifth spirillae in all the atoms of the three-fold lower man, i.e. when they have unfolded three of the egoic petals and are in process of unfolding the fourth and fifth.  So basically the fifth kingdom is entered when the fifth petal has unfolded and a man is a disciple.

Delta:   I wouldn’t use the word entered, “becomes aware of” as a real reality.

Gamma:   Is there a correspondence between the fifth petal and the fifth spirillae?

Alpha:   Yes.

Beta:   And a little earlier on 696 he says ... what we read before, “the completed cycle of the Ego upon the five Rays under the Mahachohan”.  So that means, basically the Mahachohan and the Masters involved with all the lower rays who involve the world; intelligent world affairs. 

Alpha:   The fifth petal is the pivot point between the third aspect, Libra, and second aspect, heart, Leo.  I mean, that is one way to look at it.  One way I looked at it is in terms of rays; the other way I looked at it is in terms of rulership.  Now, if this is the case, he is entering the spiritual kingdom (or at least is becoming aware, becoming influenced by the spiritual kingdom) at the fifth petal – or the fourth and fifth are unfolding.  OK.   However, notice this, until he enters the spiritual kingdom ... I think there is difference between entering and becoming influenced by.

Gamma:   There must be a difference, you know.

Alpha:   Now, this time he says he enters the spiritual kingdom at the first initiation, “and then a final and briefer period where the three higher or  inner ring of petals are developed and opened.”  So at page 543, the troublesome paragraph has us wondering where the spiritual kingdom is entered.  And here he says, he enters the spiritual kingdom (page 697) “when the fourth and fifth are unfolding”.  And on 543, he enters the spiritual kingdom when the last three are unfolding, seven, eight and nine.

Delta:   I think its sloppy terminology.  To me it is more like you have been given a guest pass into a nice place at the first initiation.  It is peak experience, but doesn’t mean you can hang out there.

Alpha:   So, two ways of talking about ‘entered’.  So basically we have, in entering the spiritual kingdom, what does that really mean?  Does it mean he can take initiation? Or does it mean he is just subject to the influence of it?

Beta:   He is still on the probationary path.  Until those five petals are fully active and the sixth is ...

Alpha:   OK.   “Still on the probationary path” ... has he taken the first or second initiation?

Delta:   Well, what I am proposing is a definition for the first initiation which no one disagreed with before.  Please do, if you disagree.  All [the first degree] means is that a person is awakened to a greater reality; it doesn’t mean they embody it at all, but it is becoming a reality.  And therefore they will try to make an effort to start moving towards the light.

Alpha:   I agree.

Beta:   He doesn’t take a major project until the third or fourth.

Alpha:   No, that is right, the third degree is taking of a project, the so-called ‘stone’.  We are all Masons here, so we deal with the Keystone; you are putting your stone in the temple; making your mark is the third degree, and it is the stone of the arch. 

Then you are opting for the idea that he becomes aware at the first initiation, and that it is perfectly consistent with this sort of sloppy way of living described here under petal number five and six.

Beta:   There are scores of incarnations under the first initiation.  There can be enormous numbers of incarnations between the first and second.

Alpha:   And basically what you are saying is that if you compare this. You are saying that petal number seven, eight and nine can open in the same life. 

Delta:   The third initiation. … I am not saying “in the same life”, but are all involved “with”.

Alpha:   You are saying in the same life and you don’t even know it yet.  And here is why, on the bottom of page 84 & 85 ... Initiation Human and Solar: 

“Many years elapsed between the Birth and the Baptism, but the remaining three steps were taken in three years.  Once the second initiation is taken the progress will be rapid, the third and fourth following probably in the same life, or the succeeding.”

Delta:   Let me just say how I see it, tell me where I am wrong.  I see myself as the very bottom of the barrel of second-level initiate.  I am trying to embody that at least and bumbling forward and taking a few baby steps with creative projects.  So I see myself as the very bottom level, whereas, lets say, I would consider Jimmy Carter at the very, very top level of the second.  In other words, he is fully embodied.  He is out there everyday doing it and has all these creative projects.  He is living selflessly, etc.  But yet, (and who am I to say what his identity is?) but my speculation is that he is still identified with being Jimmy Carter.  Even though he is doing all these selfless works and has self discipline and has all these good projects going.  Whereas, at the third degree, the identity is, well, there is this Jimmy Carter body down here, but I am part of everyone.  So, I think there can be a wide range in the second, a huge range.

Alpha:   What do you mean, once the second has been taken?

Delta:   The hallmark of the second degree initiate would be they would be embodying this kingdom of heaven in some way, through some project or being some leader in a group. 

Beta:   You can still be an unconscious disciple, and ego invested …

Alpha:   There is still ego.  And it is called, remember, to know, to express ... but it is expression of the divine plan.  Expression of the divine plan is what the second degree does.  But this is the Jimmy Carter thing that you are talking about.

Delta:   Yeah.  And he is doing a billion times better expression than me.  I am at the very bottom of that and he is at the very top of that.  (I think he will go on to the third because ...)

Alpha:   But remember what we just said here.  That once the second degree is taken, the third and the fourth can follow in the same life. 

Delta:   I think, only the higher part of the second.   But I agree.  I am projecting my own arbitrary opinion; I don’t know, this is just my understanding.  I only think that is the very advanced part of the second where you are embodying it, like Jimmy Carter.

Beta:   Yeah.  In the second initiation they still have to have ego investment.  You still have warfare between the soul and the personality, and those two sets of values.

Alpha:   You have warfare up until the third degree; you have warfare up until the fourth degree.

Beta:   Yeah.  Exactly. But it is different on the fourth degree, it is more etheric in nature, more of a warfare with the world, more as it is.

Alpha:   It’s not so much your own lunar lords that are resisting, although your lunar lords may resist the idea of being totally sacrificed.  I mean they may.  Suppose you have a world project and it falls to the sacrificing of your life.  There may be a last ditch stand of the lunar lords against that.

Gamma:   _____ for example.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Or the case of people who are called to martyrdom of some kind.  Or maybe _____, Burno or people like that.

Beta:   Or even Christ.  That is interpreted in different ways too.  That is interesting, well the animal has to have its due; it has its own life, and certainly if the soul abstracted itself from the animal life I don’t think it could even talk.

Alpha:   Have we arrived, I am speaking of consensus here, that the spiritual kingdom is an influence when the fourth and fifth petals are opened?  DK uses the word ‘entered’ on page 697, but we are saying it is ‘influential’.  And the fact that it is influential ...

I want to know what happens to the path of aspiration prior to the first birth?  Is that a fifth petal or fourth petal/fifth petal affair?   Late fourth petal/fifth petal affair?  E.g., “I aspire to be good enough to be oriented unwaveringly towards the soul no matter how many mistakes I make?”,  because that is how he describes the first initiation. 

Delta: Didn’t he describe the fourth petal as personality integration?  The fourth petal was mostly just,  ‘how can I be effective?’, ‘how can I make sure that number one gets what number one wants?’. 

Alpha: It’s the selfish four elementals (described in Rays and Initiations), they thrive on the first four petals.

Beta:   The dark lords can be on the first and second degrees.  … Ayn Rand, you know in a way, she could express enlightened self interest, and all of it ... she wrote “Atlas Shrugged” ... American Author.

Alpha:   ... who is a will author, lower will.  Yeah.  He says that the majority of black magicians are on the first ray egoic.  That is a quote.  And in Treatise on White Magic he tells you how each of the egoic rays operate in the black lodge.  You know, how the third ray colludes, the second ray encourages you towards temptation, and the first ray just, you know, grasps.  Anyway, I am just quoting; I haven’t read the book in years.  OK.   So the question is what kind of uneven petal unfoldment goes on there?

Beta:   He says that the petals in the tiers can open ... there can be some peculiar karma,depending on the group karma, also on the individual on the masters ...

(tape interrupted)

Gamma:   He says that one petal can open before the one before, you know.

Alpha:   The primary lotuses from Vulcan and Mercury, whereever they came from, the primary lotuses came in with one and three unfolded.  Those are the ones.

Beta:   So you can actually have two, only two on one of the tiers, and you can open up a petal on the next tier for some unusual reason.  So if you have six petals unopened it could be one of the sacrifice petals, on the buddhic level perhaps. I mean that is the most suggestive.  Or maybe on the manasic level.

Alpha:   Wait ... you can have six petals unopened? 

Beta:         Or, unfolding, and there must be seven degrees of gradation, of stimulation, awakening, unfolding   and unfolded, or mastery you know ....

Alpha:   OK, so you are saying that every petal unfolded goes through seven stages in the unfoldment process.

Beta:   Yeah, I think that must be true.  But you know you must have a petal awakened. Six could mean one sacrifice petal awakened, and only two on the lower.  I am sure that very common because manasic types are easily found.  Manasic types could easily bypass the love petals.

Alpha:   So they have to go back and so … someone could have some sort of manasic sacrifice petal unopened, but could be missing something on the second tier.  OK.   Well lets just see if we can firm this up. … I want to get at the spiritual kingdom problem. I always used to think that the higher fifth petal, being a pivot petal, was easily Leo/Libra and therefore the first degree.  That the sixth petal was easily Piscean/Virgoan, with sixth ray, commitment, selflessness (attempted) and therefore second degree.  And that the unfolding of seven, eight, and nine were basically the runway to the third degree.  That is how I used to think.

Beta:   The sixth you call Piscean or Virgoan?

Alpha:   Well it is definitely Virgoan.

Delta:   The second initiation is governed by the sixth ray and Neptune rules Pisces.  And the moon veils Neptune for Virgo.

Alpha:   And by the way, the sixth is where you quote/unquote ... ‘give up his own desires for the sake of the group’.  That sounds Pisces/Virgo to me.  “His motive may still be somewhat a blind one”.   Can you say that of a second degree initiate?  Can you say that?  His motive may still somewhat be a blind one?  And still coloured by the desire for the return of that which he gives?

Beta:   Yeah.  You can say that ...

Alpha:   ... and for love from those he seeks to serve.  Maybe you can say that, the desire for return for love ...

Beta:   Because of the fanaticism he serves so blindly ...

Delta:   See, I can say that about me very easily; I am not really rampant, berserk with that desire … but I would say it is certainly there. 

Beta:   Interesting quote where she identifies a probationary path on page 828.  This is in the area where she talks about those who have passed upon the probationary path. “ b. The two circles of petals are "awake," one being wide open and the other on the verge of opening.”  ... the knowledge and love petals are awake.  But only one is wide open, and the other is on the verge of opening so that is still somewhere where the fifth petal is still being worked on.  It is like the spirillae which have been vivified but they are not active.  They are not fully active and they are certainly not controlling. 

Alpha:   So, in other words, those statements you feel are characteristic of someone who could be on the second degree.  In other words.  There is still selfishness.  There is still lunarity.  There is still a planetary orientation and there is not an unselfish solar orientation.   Because there can be selfishness on the third degree, for heaven sake!

Beta:   ... there certainly is.

Alpha:   That’s what is astounding.  The rich young man went sadly away.  That is not selflessness.

Gamma:   You think he was on the third degree?

Alpha:   Yeah.  ... not only think, DK actually says it: He was rich in every thing except his will to sacrifice that which he was rich in.

Beta:   It’s blindness.

Alpha:   It is ahamkara.  Fear of losing that which you think you are. 

Beta:   Identity association.

Alpha:   Then, therefore, the conclusion of the group is that the following represents the runway to or the antechamber of the third degree and can be consummated relatively quickly, namely (page 541):  “the man consciously utilises all that he has gained or is gaining under the law for the definite benefit of humanity.”  That is not the first degree, that is the antechamber to the third.  And further, at 542, that: “the conscious steady application of all the powers of the soul to the service of humanity with no thought of return nor any desire for reward for the immense sacrifice involved.” ... the antechamber to the third initiation, and not the second degree.

Beta:   Fully consummated second. 

Delta:   Yeah.  Fully consummated second.  The most advanced second, borderline the third.

Alpha:   If you say that, then you are reserving the third degree for the ninth petal …

Delta:   I am reserving it for the ninth petal.

Alpha:   Now you are taking the position that I just took before.

Delta:   I don’t see a contradiction there.  In other words, the ninth petal would be the fully consummated third.

Alpha:   OK, so are you saying that the second degree can be taken at the end of the sixth petal?  The sixth petal, with all its selfishness and all the rest of it trying to help the group ... is a second degree thing? 

Delta:  Yes  …

Beta:   ... the fifth petal is just entering the kingdom ... it is accepted discipleship, you’re OK.  You don’t have to be worried about, in a certain way.

Delta:   That is why I cited Jimmy Carter.  I think he is very much like this.  The petal of love for the mental plane [fifth], for example, it says “the conscious steady application of all the powers of the soul to the service of humanity with no thought of return nor any desire for reward for the immense sacrifice involved.”

Alpha:   The man has passed the second degree, has got his foot on the second degree, and is really warming up for the third degree at this point.

Delta:   Yeah.  I would say that he probably has the merest glimmer of some desire for some reward or recognition, the merest glimmer of it.

Beta:   That is true.  One only becomes conscious as a disciple somewhere there between second and third.  And sometime even in the third, you have to start the third, I think, before you become …

Alpha:   Don’t forget the Tibetan’s group, as conscious as you think they were or were not, they were predominately between the first and the second.

Beta:   That may be true.  I can certainly understand why that was.

Alpha:   And believe me, when you see their problems, you know, you read DINA, these were a bunch of personal problems.  There were problems like forcing your point of view; there were problems with self pity …

Beta:   They were  ... it was a different cycle.  But they were in an initiating cycle.  I think the ultimate assessment couldn’t be made except with understanding their motivation.

Alpha:   Well, he did says point blank: ‘both of you are preparing for the second initiation.’

Beta:   You still have personal issues I think into the fourth, cause one identifies, one still has idealism, but identifies with the good of the entire universe, with one’s drive to do good and identify with universe or the goal, rather than oneself.  Nevertheless you still have all this refuse trailing, these old habits and what-not trailing.

Alpha:   Are you still holding out for the idea that ....some of the Tibetan’s disciples were between the third and fourth degree?

Beta:   I could never say that until I had examined them more closely. ...

Alpha:   I will produce [the reports] for this group and you can judge them for yourself.

Beta:   I would love to see something.  I have always assumed just for their writings though, DK was writing it was from the first and third to a great extent.  He even says that the Cosmic Fire is for fourth degree students. 

Alpha:   He says it is for initiates.  Does he say fourth degree?

Gamma:   No, I don’t think so.

Alpha:   The book was written only for initiates.

Beta:   I assume the fourth degree is there but it is extremely rare, obviously.

Alpha:   I would say it is written from the third on up.

Gamma:   I think it was the fourth degree, the way I understand it, they are starting to gather their own disciples and training them, etc.  They are not really under the tuition of a master any more, you see.  Oh they could be at a distance ....

Alpha:   They could be a disciple within the heart, a disciple within the aura.  A fourth degree initiate could be the master of an ashram, not the master, but the adept of an ashram, or arhat of an ashram on a scientific level,  on the manasic level.  But the fourth degree arhat is still under the supervision of a master and of a chohan, although he is doing his own thing.  It is just like DK; DK is a fifth degree at least reporting to KH, and in his ashram in a certain respect.  Right?

Delta:   Perhaps, after the break we can go on to how these petals correspond with the unfoldment of the chakras to some degree … if people are agreeable.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Look, I mean, when I made this outline ... its like three Cosmic Fire books.  You know, I  mean, I put down in the outline all the unanswered questions that I have ever had about anything ‘in order’.

Delta:   Well, I think, especially the thing that you brought up: what does he mean by ‘entering the spiritual kingdom?’.  He seems to be using entering in a much different way in different parts of this book. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  You have got to be careful in the reading and, of course, the compilation work is so important because then you get to see where he appears to contradict himself.  And then you have to use your intuition to decide what is really going on here. 

                See, what is very important about this is, disciples in the modern age, in a way, have to understand what petals they are unfolding because there are specific tasks here related to each of the petals.  Each one of us might well ask ourselves what it is we are doing?

                And we also want to know how far we can go and fast we can go because we are equipping ourselves for greater service.  We are looking for initiation because it gives added power to serve.  Right?  So, from a certain point of view, what I just read, in IHS, is true, that like St. Paul, it looks like to me, the second, third, and fourth initiations can all be taken in the same life and probably will, he says probably will.  That’s an astounding statement.  Then, the seventh, eighth, and ninth petals could, under applied attention, unfold extremely rapidly.

Beta:   ... because of the release of egoic power ... and its manasic focus.

Alpha:   ... manasic focus.   They could unfold, using the analogy, ten times as fast as the love petals.  Probably, even that is not an exaggeration, probably it should be many more times than ten times as fast.  What we really need is the acceleration formula for evolution.  You know what I am saying.  We need the degree to which the ascending spiral accelerates in its ascent.

Delta:   ... logarithmic or geometrical error ...

Alpha:   Yeah.

Beta:   We have to guard the bodies of all our fellow spiritual students, too, guard the etheric mechanisms, guard the lower vehicles, the lower bodies, the health.

Alpha:   Guard the health.  What is apparently happening here is because of this ingathering, a third ingathering, you know, the Buddha, the Christ and now, major New Group of World Servers, ingathering into the ashrams, a tremendous acceleration is possible for those who ride the crest of the wave – not in any crazy new age, you know ‘you can do it all in one incarnation business’ – but in a sincere technical way, because of the availability of energy which can be understood.  I mean, you know the danger on one hand is inflation.  The danger on the other is self-minimisation and not taking advantage of ‘the wave’.  So the big question is, what can we really do and can we not maximise ourselves for the sake of the process.  What’s within our reach?

Beta:   All of this involves the transmutation of the ethers of the higher ethers, the planetary ethers, our human and personal, individual ethers being substituted with planetary ethers.

Alpha:   ... in other words, triadal ethers.  Triadal plane says ethers in substitute of planetary ethers.

Beta:   ... as in Telepathy … That can be dangerous, particularly dangerous.  That why it is safer in group formation. … That is the necessity for manasic workers and technical workers [not?] standing too high.

Alpha:   That is what we are involved in.  We are involved in manasic work so the technical understanding can be supported when all craziness comes along and people believe this and people believe that.  And you can mobilise your thought in such a way to substantiate for them where and what they are really doing, where they are really standing, what is possible. 

Gamma:   When I look at,  a quotation in one of his books [about a disciple] one had eighty per cent glamour, and the lowest had thirty percent glamour.

Alpha:   DK said that?

Epsilon:   ... that is in one of the DINAs, he gives a list of the percentage of the glamours of the disciples,  and one had only twenty percent, but the other one was varying between eighty percent to ...

Beta:   Individuals? ... or different groups?

Epsilon:   They were individuals.  He gives the letters [initialed name of the disciple] and he says you still have that amount or proportion of glamour ...

Alpha:   You know what we should do ...  Maybe, hit the button there for a second.

[tape paused]

Delta:   He says in one of the books, I forget where, if only three disciples in a group can really co-operate transpersonally and with love and so forth, there will be a quantum leap forward for the whole group.  For me, that also shows that, in a way that is saying, if there can be just three people who are advanced second degree initiates ... So now, assuming that I am defining second degree correctly, it shows there could be a lot of people who are first and second degree initiates, that still can’t co-operate as effectively as they might.

Alpha:   That is true.  … I collected a bunch of stuff about the third degree in the beginning of my book here.  And I just want to read it in this context.  This is from DINA II page 397 to 401:

“..the transfiguration of the personality”  results in “its liberation from the alluring imprisonment in the three worlds.” ...that is about the third degree. …  “At the third initiation, or transfiguration the control of the personality in the three worlds is broken in order that the son of mind, the soul, may be substituted finally for the concrete and hitherto directing lower mind.” 

... which is really interesting is about the battle of lower manas and higher manas at that point.  And it tells you something even about Mars as the ruler of lower manas which he tells us earlier.

Beta:   Again, really he says that somewhere explicitly.

Alpha:   ... yeah, the five senses are ruled by Mars and the concrete mind, the concrete scientific mind. 

... Mars seems to rule everything, everything.  It is amazing.

Beta:  Guess why? … in this previous cycles … (One of the things is no one will dare talk about right?) No one will discuss Mars.  And this and that.  ... or Venus, maybe, for that matter ... in some respects.

Alpha:   unha.  ...well, say a few more words. … You are hinting darkly.  Can you  be a little more explicit?

Beta:   I don’t know.  I am just saying that all the standard quotes from  Blavatsky and some from Bailey saying that certain things cannot be discussed.

Alpha:   Yeah ... of which no initiate may speak.

Beta:   Because of the cycle ... it is too revealing of the status of the planetary ...

Alpha:   Ah ha. Yeah, that is right, there is something about ...

Gamma:   Why does he call Mars, somewhere (inaudible), the important chain, the fourth chain, (inaudible) before is Mars (inaudible).

Alpha:   Yeah.  But that is a peculiar statement because there was a lot that was called ... HPB got in there and said clearing up a few theosophical misconceptions. 

Beta:   Right.  But, in a way she was blinding it.  She was using that as a blind, to take it even further.  There was something there that had to be blinded further. … The mistake was that people thought that Mars ... the Mars chain was attached to our planet ...

Alpha:   ... Mars scheme ...

Beta:   Nope.  But she didn’t even use the scheme.  She never used the term scheme.

Alpha:   She called them chains.

Beta:   Right.  And she said no, that is not true.  ... Basically you have all these planets as the dense physical bodies of chains.  But, the mistake was that Mars and Mercury were in our Earth chain.

Gamma:   That is right (inaudible) Leadbeater ... (inaudible) also.

Beta:   Yes.  (inaudible) yeah  actually it was in his Esoteric Buddhism ... I think he mentioned that. 

Alpha:   … Mars is given as the third scheme and Mercury as the fifth scheme.  Three and five.  So they do flank the earth.

Beta:   They are the etheric body or they are associated with it.  They are in the third triangle ... in the planetary constitution. … initiation is only taken in an etheric, or physical, body.

Alpha:   Now here, among the chains they are listed as the fifth and sixth (this is page 389 for the chains and page 369 for the schemes).  So they are listed as the fifth and sixth chains: Mars sixth; Mercury fifth.  They do not flank the earth.

Delta:   This is not to pay attention to the names.

Alpha:   That could be a blinding too.  I frankly think it is. 

Delta:   I don’t.  I will tell you why.  Because, if you look at the chains and schemes as being like chakras, or in another manner of speaking like the houses in the horoscope, then in one horoscope Mars can be in the second house, in another horoscope Venus can be in the second house, in another horoscope Neptune can be in the second house – what is most important idea is what does the idea of the second house represent?  And then that idea is going to be coloured by whatever planet is in there.

Alpha:   So, what do you say corresponds to the houses?

Delta:   That the numbers of the chains.  In other words, they are the numbers of the chains one through seven.  Just as the houses are one through twelve, there are schemes one through seven, chains one through seven, globes one through seven.  Each of these numbers has an intrinsic meaning.

Alpha:   That is non-planetarily associated?

Delta:   Yeah.  That has meaning in and of itself independent of any planets or rays.  And then a certain ray or planet will operate through that for a given amount of time and then move on.  And another ray or planet will be in that position.

Alpha:  But you know he does say the Venus and Jupiter scheme, to which he gives the number two and six ...

Delta:   ... those were correct (end of side 3A) … the chains and the planets with the numbers verses the names.

Alpha:   OK ... that can be reiterated … that was an inbetween conversation. 

Delta:   OK.   You go forward with what you want to do and then we’ll come back to that.

Alpha:   What I can tell you ... I was just reading for every body’s sake a few factors on the third initiation in relation to  ... we said there was a battle between lower manas and higher manas with respect to the third initiation, [DINA II, page 398]:  “... that the son of mind, the soul, may be substituted finally for the concrete and hitherto directing lower mind.  Again, through the Law of Sacrifice, personality is liberated and becomes simply an agent of the soul.”

Then Rays and Initiations, page 110: “ all personality tendencies are obliterated.”  Then page 44-45 : “The secret of the third initiation is the demonstration of complete freedom from the claims and demands of the personality.”

Gamma:   It is over 50%.  ...

Alpha:  Well, the problem is the word about ‘complete freedom’ ... That sounds a bit more than 50%. 

Nevertheless, Rays and Initiations, page 56: When “the third initiation is undergone and points of tension (qualified by intention and purpose) supersede all previous efforts and the will aspect begins to control.”  Then, this ties in with the previous questions about whether the fifth and sixth petal can correspond to the first and second degree in as much as there are inadequacies in such people. 

And Rays and Initiations, page 385: 

“... their lives, however, frequently leave much to be desired, and the soul is obviously not in constant control a great struggle is still being waged to achieve purification on all three levels. The lives of these initiates are faulty and their inexperience great, and a major attempt is instituted in this particular cycle to achieve soul fusion.  When that is attained, then the third initiation is taken.” 

So this is before the third degree and this is talking about faulty lives. 

Rays and Initiations, page 595:  “It is unification and a growing sense of oneness which is required in order to take this initiation, and it is the integrated personality which takes it.”  That is the third degree.  Unification and the sense of oneness. 

And then, Rays and Initiations, 597:  “... it is the one in which the spiritual man demonstrates his complete control of the personality.”   So, this would seem to correlate with the faultiness demonstrated in relation to the opening of the fifth and sixth petal. 

Beta:   And we know in personality can be a glamour too. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  Then the next question we discussed inbetween was in relation to the numbering of the chains and schemes and/or their given planetary names.  And the question arose, Is there a value in numbering them which negates any value in the names already given? Or, is it a blind when DK says to us: ‘do not pay any attention to the names given to the planetary chains and schemes’?

Delta:   So, what I would propose is that the schemes and chains and globes are all chakras of even greater beings .... and by analogy we have chakras.  These chakras are ruled by different rays at different points.  Then it was different planets at different points. It was brought out that, how can you say that these planets are chakras are going to be merged into a greater whole.  …

Beta:   I was just using ... sort of, the lower planets are merged into their synthesising plants and that doesn’t really change.  That’s a valid basis for giving them planetary names.

Alpha:   Um hmm.  Yes, in other words, we look at our solar system and we say that the chakric position of a planet is pretty well fixed in a given solar system.  That this planet is always this chakra.

Delta:   But eventually, like within ourselves, for example, and no part of esoteric astrology, it says for advanced initiates they’ll just have the crown, the heart, the base of the spine, so it is true the other chakras have merged into those three. …

 Beta:   The triangle of chakras always controls, but chakras waken, even though the chakras are in particular alignment, they awaken and have disproportionate influence, you know, at given times, or cycles, months or years in the person’s life.

Alpha:   The question is, can we have a system in which only three chakras are functioning?  Not just dominating, but functioning, and all the others have disappeared?

Gamma:   No, I don’t think so.

Delta:   I didn’t say they all disappeared.

Alpha:   Well, page 88 of Esoteric Astrology and page one sixty-something of this book … but, frankly, there is a possibility of a system existing without seven chakras.  Now and I can substantiate that by the idea ... that … look at it this way, there is a point where Mercury and Venus and Earth disappear.  Many of the lower planets disappear.  All that is left is three synthesising planets.  The three synthesising planets are chakras.

Delta:   He says page 301, Esoteric Astrology:

“The awakening of the seventh centre, the centre at the base of the spine, by the soul working through the first or highest head centre and producing (as a consequence) the surging upwards of the kundalini fire.  This, in its turn, produces fusion with the higher forces.  When this takes place the three major centres in the body are The Head, The Heart, The base of spine.”

Alpha:   Ah ha.  But not the only ones … what I am trying to say is the average situation ... is that certain chakras dominate while other chakras still exist.  But the possible situation, if you take the planetary analogy, is that there will be times when there are only four or five planets in our solar system because the obscuration is underway, mergent.  There will be times there are  three synthesizing planets.  There will be times when there is only one.  There will be times when there is none at all.  So what does that say about chakras in relation to the system,because they have merged with the superior scheme?

Beta:   That happens somewhat at death.

Alpha:   Yes.  That is right.

Beta:   Abstraction on the atomic, probably etheric, atomic subplanes into the ...

Alpha:   Yeah.

Beta:     All that there can be atomic matter and whatever is highest can be abstracted in some way or another, or patterned into ...

Alpha:   So it is a death process.  It is not a normal process.  But to have less than seven is part of a death process ... even though it may take place over millions of years on the larger cycle.

Gamma:   Interesting in a human being when he dies he sort of switches out of one centre to the other.

Alpha:   Yeah.  And being switched off means essentially the centre disappears because centres are vortices of life energy.

Beta:   That is what they talk about in terms of the moon.

Gamma:   In the etheric body ... so the etheric body is condensed into this flashing point … all the etheric substance which holds the centres is condensed, and flashes out, you know (and then reappears).

Alpha:   Yeah.  So there is elevation and condensation. … Now this takes place in the chains as well.  A healthy scheme will always have seven manifesting chains, although they can vary.  The moon chain disappears, Neptune comes in over the horizon, Saturn changes its relationship, they change their relationship perhaps with each other.

Beta:   Venus comes in later.

Alpha:   The reason I say so is that once the moon chain was chain number three.  Moon chain merges with the Earth chain, (that means the Earth chain exists of course. This is a point; not like Blavatsky said (something’s funny), and all of a sudden Saturn is the third chain and Neptune comes over the horizon, out of subjectivity.  So what does this mean? …

Delta:   Why couldn’t one ... said to disappear and another appear just as .... you know, one part of the body is meant to do one thing, but maybe in an emergency it can do something else. 

Alpha:   OK.  Well, we are off on another question, How many chakras do there have to be functioning for a system to live?  Do all seven have to function?  And if less than seven function are we in a process of obscuration?

Gamma:   … the solar system functions on only five (inaudible).

Alpha:   ... five planes, but that’s different.  …

Beta:   That is challenging.

Alpha:   Yeah, but isn’t that different if you say the first solar system functioned on three planes, ours functions on five, the next one functions on seven or whatever, that is different from saying how many chakras does a system have to have to be a living and vital system?  Maybe it has to have, ten?  And if it has less doesn’t that mean it is in process of obscuration?

Beta:   The latter globes of a chain are in obscuration already because they are abstracting buddhically, usually.  The last two globes of a chain are usually considered buddhic in nature.

Delta:   Yeah.  And synthetical.

Beta:   ... that is somewhere in Cosmic Fire.  The first one is archetypal, the second and third ... the second laya point comes in the third or something like this , third, fourth, fifth are most active in this particular cycle …

Delta:   I would like to go back on what I am proposing and have you guys mount against what I was saying ... namely, that there are seven schemes or seven chains or seven chakras and that the rulerships of these schemes, chains, or chakras can change.  What is wrong with that idea?

Alpha:   I think that the influence exerted upon any one of them can change depending upon the sub levels which are affected by other systems.  But that, fundamentally, each one of those subsets is a particular planet or,  in other words, there is no such thing as leaving our seven schemes unqualified.  We have seven or ten schemes in our solar system and there is no way to play roulette with them, and saying scheme number one is going to be Mars, now it is going to be Vulcan, now Jupiter ... but that, in fact, a scheme is the planet.  And we just don’t have any names yet for a chain or a globe. 

                        In other words, when we look at our solar system, Jupiter is Jupiter and stays Jupiter and it is a heart centre; it is never going to be the solar plexus.  It is never going to be the base of the spine.  It’s a certain number of a chain and that number of a chain is exactly equivalent to Jupiter and never to anything else.  But, we’ll be influenced variously as various times by the other ones depending on the cycle, but Jupiter is Jupiter.  And if we look on the chain level, the same thing would be the case if we had hard and fast planetary-like names for these chains.  A chain is a chain because it occupies a certain function, but may be influenced by others at different times ... like it is an empty house in a horoscope.

Delta:   But a house never can be empty because the house will always have a sign sign on it, and maybe a planet.

Alpha:   Well, I think it is fundamentally a different thing, a house is an abstraction, whereas a chain, scheme, or globe is an actual system. 

Delta:   Why is that?  Why couldn’t you say the house is a manifestation of the twelve petalled lotus within the human being?  One of these tiers of twelve petalled lotuses.

Alpha:   Well, when I said that a house is an abstraction I didn’t take to consideration the fact that ... You see, is a house an energy?  No.  OK.   If it is not an energy it is not an entity … so then, in fact what is it?

Delta:   It is like a blank screen. …

Alpha:   ... Maybe we could say that houses are somehow divisions of prakriti.

Delta:   So would we say that the chakras are divisions of prakriti and not entities.  But, we would we say that the chains and schemes and globes are entities?

Alpha:   The chakras are said to be vortices within lower prakriti caused by the impact of the will aspect.  Cosmic Fire page 165: 

“The centres in the human being deal fundamentally with the FIRE aspect in man, or with his divine spirit. They are definitely connected with the Monad, with the will aspect, with immortality, with existence, with the will to live, and with the inherent powers of Spirit. They are not connected with objectivity and manifestation, but with force, or the powers of the divine life. The correspondence in the Macrocosm can be found in the force which manipulates the cosmic nebulae and which by its whirling rotary motion eventually builds them into planets or spheroidal bodies.”

Its right here.  Its all here.

Beta:   … and the next paragraph: 

“This force originates on cosmic mental levels, from certain great foci there, descends to the cosmic astral, forming corresponding cosmic focal points, and on the fourth cosmic etheric level (the buddhic plane of our solar system) finds its outlet in certain great centres. These centres are again reflected or reproduced in the three worlds of human endeavor. The Heavenly Men, therefore, have centres on three solar planes, a fact to be remembered.

a.       On the monadic plane, the plane of the seven Rays.

b.       On the buddhic plane, where the Masters and their disciples form the forty-nine centres in the bodies of the seven Heavenly Men.

c.        On the fourth etheric physical plane, where the sacred planets, the dense bodies in etheric matter of the Heavenly Men, are to be found.”

Alpha:   And then down here, page 166: 

“The centres are formed entirely of streams of force, pouring down from the Ego, who transmits it from the Monad. In this we have the secret of the gradual vibratory quickening of the centres as the Ego first comes into control, or activity, and later (after initiation) the Monad, thus bringing about changes and increased vitality within these spheres of fire or of pure life force.”

The centres, therefore, when functioning properly, form the "body of fire".  I feel like I am missing the main reference, but you get the idea.

Gamma:   Yeah, it is in this reference and he explains also how the physical body in the physical plane came to be in this seven here.  …

Alpha:   Um –hmm.  How it attracted … Well, what is the point here?  In other words that the centres are only secondarily prakritic? 

Delta:   I see, whereas the houses are [primarily prakritic?].  And what connection, if any, would there be between the centres and the schemes and the globes.

Alpha:   Centres, schemes, globes and chains are all centres.  Globes are the centres of a Regent of a chain. 

Delta:   OK.   I understand that, but wouldn’t there be a resonance between all these?

Alpha:   Yes, there is. For example, the fourth globe, fourth chain, fourth scheme, they all resonate.  There is a resonance.  And at different times he tells us that the different systems, above, and above and above, influence a particular globe.  That is what we want to focus on.

Gamma:   It is on the numerical lines that … changes between planets occur and entities and stuff like that.

Alpha:   ... on numerical resonance, yes.

Delta:   So, why not just say the heart is ruled by Jupiter, or something?

Alpha:   Well, why not just say the heart is Jupiter?  Ah, but, wait – this is a problem.  Is Jupiter an organ within the solar system which actually is the heart of the solar system, or, is there something called ‘the heart of the sun’? Is the heart of the sun the causal body of the Solar Logos and actually the triad of the Solar Logos?  Is the central spiritual sun really the monad of the Solar Logos?  In other words, look at yourself as a human being: What is your heart?  Is your heart not a physical organ and, essentially, an etheric organ?

Delta:   Um hmmm.

Alpha:   So, when you say that Jupiter is the heart, are we not confining the word heart to within the personality aspect of the Solar Logos?).  Are we not saying that essentially the heart centre on all the personality levels is Jupiter?  BUT, if you want to get to the heart centre in a higher sense of the sun, you have got to go to the causal body triad.  It’s not Jupiter anymore.

Gamma:   It’s Neptune, maybe ...

Alpha:   Well … ok, but it can’t be even Neptune in that respect.  See maybe Neptune is  ... this ... Maybe Neptune is the twelve petalled heart within the head, but it is still etheric and personal.

Delta:   So … then this would seem to imply again we should use the numbers for the centres because depending on which dimension of the centre we are talking about, and also how it is being influenced, it might be different rays influencing it, or different planets, or other centres influencing it.  I don’t know if ‘influence’ is the right word (maybe ‘resonating’).

Alpha:   There are going to be different centres. ... but rather than say Jupiter, you mean you should say number two or number six?

Beta:   That was my point before.  I think the numbers make a lot more sense if you are talking about the generic process.  ... the activity of how the system is set up.  But, the planets really give you specifics.

Alpha:   ... qualitative.  Planets are qualitative.

Delta:   So you think he is just being difficult when he says, here are all the correlations but ignore them?

Alpha:   I think he is saying, here are all the correlations, but those who can be convinced to ignore them, ignore them.  In other words, if you are dissuaded by what I have just said you don’t deserve to penetrate into it anyway.  And then …

Beta:   Yeah!

Alpha:   But ... because then he tells you about Jupiter and Venus mystically and occultly, and there they are.  And then he even tells you that Earth is in the right place, you know, in this business.  And therefore, something is cooking; it is the Tibetan’s method.   Maybe we can learn more about the Tibetan’s method of leading and misleading us. 

Beta:   I think a lot of keys are in Blavatsky in sorting out the relationship of the planets to the chains and to the parts of the planetary constitution, the vehicle, and what planets rule the different parts of the planetary or solar constitution.

Alpha:   Well, that is one of the questions, actually.  We see that he says that he won’t tell you which they are,  and yet this is something we should definitely address because it does tie right in with the whole question of the new astrology, doesn’t it.  I mean, for instance, if the earth is the base of the spine and we have about two or three references that in different ways tell us that it is, then, he goes a long way to tell you that he won’t tell you what the earth is.

Beta:   Why is it the base of the spine and not something else?  It’s interesting.  I always think that it is the base of the spine because the earth is in incarnation right now.  If it were not in incarnation we would not be the base.

Alpha:   OK, but this is very interesting, What do you mean that the earth is incarnation?  You mean that the Planetary Logos is in incarnation on the physical globe the Earth?

Beta:   Well, exactly.  I think that the Heavenly Man is certainly taking, and the personality is taking an initiation.  And initiation cannot be taken without a physical body ... or its etheric, yeah.

Gamma:   This is work for the Heavenly Man?

Beta:   I always understand the Heavenly Man as the ego, and the Planetary Logos as the monad, and then ray lords (Spirits before the Throne) as triadal factors, the Manasaputra actually.

Alpha:   Divine Manasaputra?

Beta:   ... as a mental entity.  Yeah, I think that the names are used (inaudible) ...

Gamma:   OK ... lets take the monad for example.

Beta:   Monad ...  Right now I think it is spirit before the throne.  I think that is the most questionable, the most difficult.  I think on the logoic planes it is obviously the Planetary Logos, but you could switch the Ray Lords and the Spirits before the Throne.  I think the material has to be really closely read there; it is quite difficult.  My initial impulse was to put the Ray Lords on the atmic plane, and the Spirits before the Throne on the monadic plane.

Gamma:   What is a ray exactly ... I would say it is in the manasic.

Beta:   Exactly.  Umm.  That is a good, well there is the physical manifestation of our physical planet.  That is the physical, the planetary entity is astral. And then … it’s the planetary shell and it is the lunar....

Alpha:   ... corpus (inaudible)  ... what does this mean?

Beta:   ... Our planet as we see it is associated with a lunar elemental, in the fourth month of gestation.  …

Alpha:   The physical matter aspect of our planet, and not the etheric part, or that too?

Beta:   Right.  The etheric is focused through the personality of the Planetary Logos.

Alpha:   OK.   Here’s actually what we are discussing.  We are discussing a series of names which are associated with the Planetary Logos and which are usually considered to be equivalent to the Planetary Logos, and yet Beta is saying that there is a differentiation of the level to which these names should be applied. For instance, in other words, that the names represent different aspects of the entity called Planetary Logos, such as Heavenly Man representing the egoic nature of Planetary Logos ...

Beta:   And buddhic ... the egoic-buddhic ... yeah.

Alpha:   OK.   And the Spirits before the Throne, which is a generic term, can be applied at any level, logoically or cosmically, but nevertheless the so-called Spirits before the Throne of the Planetary Logos pertain to a particular level of his manifestation.

Beta:   I can’t decide since they are called the imperfect gods ...

Alpha:   Isn’t every Planetary Logos of a certain stature called ‘an imperfect god’?

Beta:   It is a good question.  My biggest questions have to do with the Ray Lord and the Spirits before the Throne. But I would intuitively place the Spirits on the monadic plane, and the Ray Lords on the atmic plane.

Alpha:   But, I would put forth that a Ray Lord, while they may be be associated with the manifestation of a Planetary Logos, is in fact a generic term.  And that a ray itself is not serving a planet or a solar systemic being, or anything of the kind, but it is a being in cosmos independent of a planetary or solar systemic vehicle. 

Beta:   These are the questions I have been having.  I think perhaps you are right.  Then, in that case, I would put in this one case (I don’t think I have any questions about the other names) I put a Ray Lord on the second plane because that is where the rays touch down in the seven planes.  It is just they become individualised on the third and I always associated the rays with individualisation.  But, I think it makes much more sense in the light of what you said, that it is the Spirits before the Throne who are individualised, and they are definitely planetary in nature.

Alpha:   OK.   Now, the throne of the Spirits before the Throne can be considered the throne of the logos.

Beta:   Right.

Alpha:   And that the Planetary Logoi could be considered Spirits before the Throne of the Logos.  So, almost invariably when DK uses the word logos, its the Solar Logos.  Otherwise he specifies.

Beta:   Yes, solar, exactly.  They do not occupy the throne, as DK says, because they are the imperfect gods.

Alpha:   OK.   Mistakes are made because of over differentiation and because of under differentiation.  So the question is … we have to decide here whether we have one entity with many names, or one entity with may parts to which the names apply.  So the question, When you are looking at Planetary Logoi, can you consider them as Spirits before the Throne of the Solar Logos, pure and simple?

Beta:   Oh No; the higher names are much more inclusive.  And the lower names are less inclusive because they’re involved in the lower incarnation process or lower vehicles.

Alpha:   Well, this is something that I have been hearing you say for years, so maybe it is time to try to clarify: Is a Spirit before the Throne not a Planetary Logos but an aspect of a Planetary Logos?  Is that what you are saying?

Beta:   Well, since a Planetary Logos has to incarnate through a gigantic host of entities and beings, the different strata, these are names associated with the planes for some reason ...

Alpha:   OK, I am getting it.  In other words, the Planetary Logos as he manifests on plane “X” is called “this”, in other words, Planetary Logos – as he manifests on what plane – is called the Spirit before the Throne?

Beta:   At this point I will say the atmic plane. … because I have changed and I put the Ray Lords on the monadic ...

Alpha:   So, the Planetary Logos as he manifests on the monadic plane is called?

Beta:   ... the Ray Lord. … There is a section (in the 500’s) that deal with entities that have different numbers, or increasing numbers of permanent atoms …

Alpha:   I’ve got it, I am looking right at it, page 533.

Beta:   These are the hosts of beings that incarnate in any one incarnation of any planetary or solar entity.  (The term entity I would use on the astral plane.)

Alpha:   Well notice that a Heavenly Man is here mentioned, inferred, as a Planetary Logos.  Planetary Logos is not mentioned. 

Beta:  Right, because it is on the cosmic or prakritic planes.

Alpha:   Oh, wait a second.  Now hold it.  But a Solar Logos is mentioned, and is also on the cosmic, or prakritic planes (see page 533.)  This is one of those moments when it seems that the word Heavenly Man is being approximately used and not used in any technical sense.

Beta:   There is the lesser heavenly men on the buddhic level.

Alpha:   Yeah, that is where we say, that this is a generic term.

Beta:   But, he nevertheless puts them on the buddhic level. 

Alpha:   Well, what will that mean?

Beta:   That is the name I would give to the Planetary Logos on the buddhic level … the five number two.

Alpha:   Yeah.  You see it is right there, the inference there is we have a logos, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva ...

Beta:   I think that must be used loosely.

Alpha:   Yeah ... I think there are times of loose use … and it causes confusion.

Beta:   It is meant to.

Alpha:   And there is another place for Heavenly Man ... used as the personality of the Planetary Logos. ... you saw in the tabulation.

Beta:   But then the nature of the Planetary Logos’s personality is a soul-infused personality, even though it is astrally polarised as a personality. 

Alpha:   ... soul-infused, but astrally polarised, personality?

Beta:   Yeah, but it is astrally polarised.

Alpha:   But so is the Solar Logos’s personality astrally polarised, so is Venus’s personality (inaudible).

Beta:   (inaudible) yeah, for some purpose of work, and perhaps because it is the second solar system or the first. …

Alpha:   OK.   By the way this is a wonderful tabulation in as much as it gives us names for different entities that are concerned in the globe, chain, scheme system.  ‘Regents’ for planetary chains, ‘Lords’ for globes.

Beta:   I think this is one of the richest sections of the entire book.  Actually it will be explained later.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Well you see we have a whole section coming up on entities.  If we ever get to the section on entities we are going to want to say what entities are playing upon the playground we described this morning.  You see, in a sense we jumped ahead and started talking about chakras before we talked about the entities, which is natural enough because we are human and we’re interested in our own chakra system, etc.  But coming back to this whole thing, as a Planetary Logos manifests, his manifestation is through a series of entities.  And the entities have names.

Beta:   And he also has three periodical vehicles which I would call the Planetary Logos, the Heavenly Man and Divine Manasaputra, the most prominent ones. 

Alpha:   OK, but Heavenly Man equals Divine Manasaputra equals the causal body (or it as a vehicle on the cosmic mental plane, third subplane).

Beta:   Right, because of the status of our Planetary Logos.

Alpha:   ... third subplane.

Beta:   ...in our case I am not sure.

Alpha:   I think he mentions it some place … Well, again, the inference to me is that the Solar Logos also has a causal body on the cosmic mental plane ... right?  

Beta:   Yes, but it is on the first sub-plane.

Alpha:   Is it first?   I don’t know why it shouldn’t be on the second, frankly, considering what the Solar Logos is doing, except for his order of being. … However, very interestingly, our Solar Logos is not a sacred Solar Logos because he has place within the quaternary of seven systems.   Neverth-less, how can he be a heart centre and not sacred?

Beta:   ... he is undergoing initiation.

Delta:   The heart centre is part of the lower four.

Alpha:   Well that is right, actually. 

Beta:   But, then again, the life principle is anchored in the heart.

Alpha:   It is, but that doesn’t mean how much it is unfolded ...

Gamma:   It is anchored in the lower four.

Delta:   Yeah.

Alpha:   ... So the Solar Logos we agree is not sacred ...

Beta:   ... there is so much potential ...

(laughter)

Alpha:    Well, I mean, because He has a problem, He somehow is hoping to achieve cosmic mental polarisation and he has not yet achieved the third cosmic initiation ... he is working on it.  Our Planetary Logos is working on the second cosmic initiation, and the Solar Logos has to measure up the fourth cosmic initiation, by the time he quits his system. … (this is all in Cosmic Fire.)

Beta:   OK.   Do they have direct correspondences to our first four initiations?  That is the question.

Alpha:   Ah, correspondences, but there are intervening cycles which throw you off. Its a very big subject. 

Beta:   Right  Exactly, I have held off on that where he is ...

Alpha:   The point is ...we have got to get some idea of the sacredness and non-sacredness....

Beta:   The Heavenly Man is going through the fourth initiation.

Alpha:   ... but not cosmic ...

Beta:   But not cosmic.  Exactly.

Alpha:   Whoah!  oh! Look at this.  ... I found something, page 578 of Treatise on Cosmic Fire.  This is about monads of love ... but they are all monads of love: 

“There is a direct channel, as we know, between the atomic subplane on each plane. This is more or less true of each subplane and its corresponding higher subplane numerically, and there is, therefore, a direct and quite expansive channel between the second subplane on all planes, enabling the Monads of love to link up with peculiar facility with all their vehicles when composed of second subplane matter. After initiation, the causal body is found on the second subplane of the mental plane, and monadic control then commences.”

Beta:   ... the monadic control ...

Alpha:   Now, this either means that the monad is active at all five initiations, which apparently it can be conceived as being, because the monad is somehow, in other words, it is Sanat Kumara behind the Christ, etc. etc.  Or, it means that the causal body does not move onto the second subplane until the third initiation, which would be one step lower than what I think may be correct.

Beta:   Um-hmm, same thing, third or fourth, I would not argue with ...

Delta:   It doesn’t say which initiation.  It just says ‘after’ initiation … with a small ‘i’ ...

Alpha:   That is the problem.  ... initiation ...

Beta:   I think at one point where she says the fourth initiation moving onto the second subplane. She says ... generally the case.

Alpha:   But it can’t be so, because the second subplane is gone: it is just triad after that point. 

Beta:   Oh.  No, it has to be.  The sutratma and the antahkarana are still there, the thread soul, because the triad still needs a thread soul to contact the personality; the monad still needs a channel to control the personality.

Alpha:   Yeah ... but could it not withdraw all that at will, it doesn’t even have to incarnate. 

Beta:   That is true, but it has to have that sutratma.

Alpha:   So what would be focused on.  It has no causal body though.

Beta:   That is right.  But the causal body has been transmuted into a sutratma.

Alpha:   So what is it that is focused on the second subplane?  ....not the causal body.  The causal body is gone.

Beta:   Well, no.  At the fourth initiation you still have a causal body ...until it has been absolutely obliterated.  It is just that at the end of the fourth initiation the causal body is obliterated.

Alpha:   At the end of the fourth initiation it is obliterated; by the fifth initiation it is dispersed.  But, wouldn’t you say that it is non functional after obliteration?

Beta:   Oh yeah, no but … he says that the fourth and fifth initiations can be taken in one lifetime. 

Alpha:   Yes. 

Beta:   In the past people quite often died from the fourth initiation. 

Alpha:   Yes ...

Beta:   It can be taken in the same lifetime because something physical that can convey the life and co-ordinate it on the lower planes exists, some mechanism exists, and it may not be the fully formed mayavarupa but I think it is the thread soul in this interim. 

Alpha:   Well, wait a second.  Let’s see if we can clarity this, at least in my mind.

Beta:   The antahkarana has two natures.  The first, it just unifies the threefold lower mind.  It is the lower ....

Alpha:   No, no I know that the antahkarana is buddhic ... the buddhic and love petals of the egoic lotus, strangely enough I just ran into that reference …

Beta:   Please, let me see that cite; I have got to see that.

Alpha:   It says the connection between the love petals and buddhic plane, first it describes the first part of the antahkarana, mental unit, manasic permanent atom ... then the love petals and the buddhic level. 

Beta:   Right ... and then the third is ...

Alpha:   The third is not specified in the same way.  The third is the monad and triad and all the personality vehicles; it is not like an exact correspondence.

Beta:   What book was that?  I have to get that citation.

Alpha:   Cosmic Fire, I was just reading it … By the way, I have found the section where it says, page 590, that the Logos must measure up to the fourth initiation in this solar system.  And elsewhere it says he is taking the third, the goal or for our present logos is the third, but ‘goal’ is an interesting thing; it is an immediate goal.  In the middle of 590 he says: 

“Then, in a dual synthesis, they will pass on into the third system, that in which the Power aspect is developed, and the head centres will be complete. This achieved, our Logos has triumphed, and measured up to the sixth cosmic Initiation, just as He should measure up in this system to the fourth.”

So the goal of our Logos is the third cosmic initiation and by the time it is all over in this system he must measure up to the fourth.  Now, ‘measure up’ is an interesting thing.  Because ...

Gamma:   ... it doesn’t mean that he takes it?

Alpha:   When a man “measures up” to an initiation it doesn’t certainly mean that he takes it, because the time may not be right, but it has to do with the fact that an initiate is ‘initiate’ before he is initiated.  So ‘measure up’ is an interesting word.  Anyway ...

Beta:   How does that phase transition?

Alpha:   OK.  ... well I probably could find in the 300’s the section where it says that the first cosmic initiation is the man’s fifth degree.  That the second cosmic initiation is the goal of the Planetary Logos, and the third cosmic initiation is the goal of the Solar Logos.  And ‘meanwhile’ our Planetary Logos is taking the fourth initiation. 

Beta:   Right.

Delta:   Say that again.  …

Alpha:   Well, the point is the goal of our Planetary Logos is the second cosmic initiation.  He is taking the fourth.

Delta:   So is the second cosmic the sixth?

Alpha:   So, basically what it means is that the system of nine initiations ... or ten, or whatever ... exists between the first cosmic and the second cosmic.  And that our Planetary Logos has not yet taken the second cosmic initiation; He is involved in a fourth interim initiation. 

Delta:   ... in the first series.

Alpha:   ... in the system following the first cosmic initiation. 

Beta:   He also says that on page 570.  That in the greater Manvantara the logos is to take the fourth cosmic ...

Alpha:   Greater Manvantara. … OK.   I have got a cross reference, 590 and 570. … and 384.  Lets read that.

Beta:  “The solar Logos has for objective nine initiations, the third cosmic Initiation being His goal.”

Alpha:   OK.  Do you know what that hint just said?  At least in my feeble mind?  It just said to me, OK,  let me just see what I just thought I said, I don’t want to jump before I know what I am doing.  “The solar Logos has for objective nine initiations, the third cosmic Initiation being His goal.”

Tape Four Begins        

We are talking about the initiatory sequence in the lives of the Planetary and Solar Logos without which we cannot become initiates of the third degree. Goal and Objectives:  Page 384 of Cosmic Fire.  What seems to be the case here, is if an “objective” is less than a “goal”; we are going to have an interesting situation of the Solar Logos having to pass through nine interim initiations before he achieves the third cosmic initiation.

To reiterate, we have the situation of the Solar Logos having to pass through nine interim initiations … before he achieves his goal of the third cosmic initiation.  Therefore he has a long way to go in this system.

Delta:   Once an entity takes nine initiations then they are in the next kingdom.

Alpha:   They are living in the next field.

Beta:   On 590, he says he should measure up to the four, but on 570 he says he is to take the fourth.

Alpha:   But, is the fourth one of the nine?  …

Beta:   Oh, I think wrong ...

Alpha:   I think not.

Beta:   That’s interesting.  Man has for objective five initiations, the first cosmic being his goal. And that is because the five planes of the Monad are, and the five planes of planetary life, that is speaking generally, for generic humanity.

Alpha:   OK, We have an interesting thing here: we have five, seven and nine.  Which incidentally are the numbers associated with the first solar system, the second and the third.

Beta:   That is true.  And if humans take five initiations they are still attached to the planet.  If they take seven or nine initiations, the sixth initiation frees you into other spheres.  And if you take the seventh that means you are here on the planet; you have committed yourself to something on the planet.  And the ninth as well.  So, then that means, as an initiate you are a part of the host who actually  embodies the Planetary Logos and what has to be initiated.

Alpha:   OK.   So it is the path of Earth Service there for those very difficult eighth and ninth initiations; very difficult to take within our planetary sphere, and which commits you to the path of service to be part of the host of our Planetary Logos in acting out his purposes.  But the sixth initiation could send you elsewhere out of the planetary initiatory regime.  That is interesting.

                But a lot people get into trouble right in this area here because there is a differentiation in the types of initiations.  Now, first, he has for objective, no matter where he is, five initiations.  The first cosmic initiation being his goal. So, quite clearly, a goal is a more advanced thing than an objective.  Our Planetary Logos has for his objective seven initiations; the second cosmic initiation being his goal.  He is on number four now.  Correct? … four and seven.

Now, and by the way, what is interesting here is that he is seeking to master the fourth astral subplane, the fourth cosmic astral subplane.  So he is basically taking the initiations of the cosmic astral plane.  Isn’t he?

Beta:   Exactly.  …  [reference searches]

Alpha:   I said that our Planetary Logos is seeking to master the cosmic astral subplanes.  And I remember a place where it said that Venus is working on five, and is being buddhically influenced.  Whereas, we are working on four and are being manasically influenced … by Venus?

Beta:   Yeah.  Well, we’re working, we completed, we’ve mastered a certain number, I think maybe four ... we are working on the fifth.  We should have been on the fifth along with Venus, but because of the moon chain.

Alpha:   That is right.  We should have been on the fifth [subplane of the cosmic astral].  But we are on the fourth now.  But we have mastered three.  We are on the fourth having mastered three.

Beta:   That is probably true.  Yeah.  That makes sense.  Because the fourth kumara is coming in.

Alpha:   … Is this Sanat Kumara, or one of the esoteric kumaras?

Beta:   Sanat Kumara is the fifth kumara sometimes.  Spoken of as the fifth ray. 

Alpha:   Yes.  But often times he stands for the three buddhas of activity as ...

Beta:   ... the fourth ...

Alpha:   ... or is he the seventh altogether?  I mean the king of the kumaras surrounded by three below, three above ... or something like that.

Beta:   This is a great mystery.  This is very interesting.  It has to do with the Lipika Lords (inaudible) ... this and that.  … (inaudible) ...

(laughter)

Alpha:   People laugh for different reasons.

Delta:   I like the ‘this and that’ ...

Alpha:   OK.  I said check 373, now, the Solar Logos has for his objective nine initiations.  Well this is so interesting because nine is the number that is going to characterise the next solar system.  Seven characterises this solar system.  Five characterised the solar system before.  But now, let’s see if we can pin this down.  We have got the Planetary Logos pinned down to the fourth interim initiation , by the way is it also true that Sanat Kumara is also taking, in his own way, the fourth initiation? Is it also true, not just that the Solar Logos is, but that Sanat Kumara is.  Or when they say ...

Gamma:   It is one of these intermediate ones?

Alpha:   Uh-ha.  An intermediate initiation, interim initiation.  By the way, notice how it is impossible to generalise, how man has five, the Planetary Logos has seven and the Solar Logos has nine.  You cannot just take from a single plane and transpose it onto other planes.  Five plus seven is twelve, plus nine is twenty-one.

Beta:   He also says a thing later about the rounds, some planets complete their evolution in three rounds, some in five, some in seven. 

Alpha:   Does he say actually three rounds any place?

Beta:   Yes, he does.  One in three and one in nine. …

Alpha:   OK.   But what we haven’t pinned down yet is the initiation in which our Solar Logos is involved presently.  And I believe it is the fourth.  And I think there are two fourth initiations involved here.  I believe that the interim initiation in which our Solar Logos is presently involved is the fourth.  …

Beta:   He says in this chain.

Alpha:   What?  Solar Logoic chain?

Beta:   Well, he is mid way through his career upon the cosmic path of initiation.

Alpha:   Where?  Where does he say that?  384, b.   OK.   Our solar logos has for his objective: 

“b.           He is midway through His career upon the cosmic Path of Initiation, and consequently is to take the fourth Initiation in this chain.”

What does that mean?     Because a chain to a Solar Logos ... ahhh.

Beta:   A Planetary Logos.

Alpha:   A chain to a Solar Logos has got to be a scheme.  How could a Solar Logos take his fourth initiation on an isolated little chain on the Earth scheme.

Beta:   Oh.  No, no, but it is the Planetary Logos.  It is our scheme that is taking the fourth initiation in this chain.  I’m sorry.

Alpha:   No, no, this is the logos, the logos of our scheme.  He is in physical incarnation...

Beta:   No,  the Planetary Logos of our scheme.

Alpha:   Oh.  Planetary. Yeah,  quite right, led off the track ...

Beta:   Well maybe not actually.  The Planetary Logos has for objective seven initiations, the second cosmic being his goal.  He is at the fourth.  But, it looks to me like these are the nine human initiations.

Alpha:   They overlap don’t they?

Beta:   Yes, in this solar system.

Alpha:   In other words in this initiation. But wait there is a problem, here is the problem, initiation six, seven, eight and nine cannot be of the same order as the planetary logos’s interim initiations, because, if they were they would equate to the fourth planetary logoic initiation.  In other words, you would say this: that an initiate of the ninth degree is equivalent to a Planetary Logos taking the fourth interim initiation.  And that is too far.

Delta:   Why?

Alpha:   Because a ninth degree initiate simply refuses the cosmic physical plane.

Delta:   I see.  Because that being is not the same as the Planetary Logos.  …

Alpha:   Yeah.  But you see, the tendency would be to do this.  The tendency would be to say, ah-ha, fifth initiation ...

Beta:   .... speaking locally.

Delta:   ... after that becoming a solar life ... not a planetary being.

Alpha:   Yeah, exactly, you would say, Now you are ready to be a Planetary Logos!  But it is not of the same order because we have got globe lives; we have Lord lives; we have Regent lives; then Planetary Logoic lives.  So this business of the fourth, fifth, sixth. In other words, we are given three great men: a man, a planetary logos and a solar logos.  If, in between them, however, are other great lives, which are of a far greater magnitude than man and have their own initiatory sequences to undergo, like Sanat Kumara, the globe lord, a regent of a chain. 

Beta:   But if he speaks is speaking locally about the goals in this particular mahamanvantara, on page 570 he says: its in this greater mahamanvantara, the solar cycle ...

Alpha:   Yeah.  You can take the fourth initiation ...  

Beta:    Or fourth cosmic initiation.

Alpha:   OK.   Fourth cosmic initiation.  Look, all I was trying to figure out here is where our Logos stands in the interim initiations.

Beta:   Yeah, but he qualifies this on the next page after the chart, he says, if we link this up, with that earlier imparted concerning initiation and the sun Sirius we will have the seven paths.  We will have a clue to the triple cosmic path. (Page 386.)  “If we link this up with that earlier imparted concerning initiation and the sun Sirius, we will have a clue to the triple cosmic Path.”

Alpha:   Well, what is the triple cosmic path?

Beta:   Six of the paths collapsing into three.

Alpha:   Absolute sonship? 

Beta:   That is the Sirian path. … It is everything but the Sirian.  The Sirian is left because it is at the centre.  It is the egoic body of the Solar Logos.  It has to be ...

Alpha:   The Sirian? Wait, wait, you can’t say the Sirian path is the egoic body of the Solar Logos. 

Beta:   No, no, no.  But it is actually the correspondence to the dense physical body of the permanent atom left over after pralaya.  Because all those egos who failed have to be sent to Sirius for tremendous manasic stimulation.

Alpha:   Could it be said that there are egos who failed, or could it be said there are second ray monads for whom it is not natural to have manas.

Beta:   Yeah.  Exactly.  It is in a sacred context, it is true.  …

Alpha:   Now let us hold our horses here for just a second.  Here is my impression.  That Sirius being the cosmic initiate of the fifth order is stimulating our sun who is a cosmic initiate of the fourth order, in the same way that Venus is stimulating our Planetary Logos.  In other words, let’s that say our Earth is mastering the fourth cosmic astral subplane; Venus has mastered the fourth and is working on the fifth and is buddhically  influenced by the sixth.  Let us say now that our Solar Logos of the fourth order is seeking to master the fourth cosmic mental subplane; and that Sirius which has mastered the fourth cosmic mental subplane is working upon the fifth cosmic mental subplane.  Now, here is the point.  Just because their causal bodies are on the higher cosmic mental plane does not mean they have necessarily mastered the lower cosmic mental planes.

Beta:   Right.

Alpha:   So I am throwing in analogy.  I am saying that five is to four as five is to four.

Beta:   … that is certainly true ...

Gamma:  … that Sirius leads to manasic.

Alpha:   Sure.  Sure.  And therefore I can prove, from that point of view, and stop me if I am incorrect here,  that Sirius also has for its goal the third cosmic initiation, but is working on the fifth interim, just the way Venus has for her goal the second cosmic initiation but is working upon the fifth interim.  Whereas Earth is working on the fourth interim.   That is all.   A thought.....

Beta:   Um-hmm.  That is great.  I think that makes a great deal of sense.  I still have these nagging questions about the sequences of seven planes. Because if the Solar Logos is not down this far, on this level, certainly the correspondences are there in this Sirian business. I ask myself about the orders of magnitude, the Planetary Logos I have seen as profoundly distinct from the Solar Logos.  But I think it is much more closely related, and then that means the sun in the system of seven suns is much more local than ... it may involve another set of seven planes. 

Alpha:   OK.   Wait a second.  Let’s see if we can follow that.  Where are we?

Beta:   Let’s not get too abstract.

Alpha:   Have we just gone off the deep end?

Beta:   Yes. I think we have.  Let’s just forget it.  Its too ....

Alpha:   By the way, one thing should be ... in relation to what you just said ...

Beta:   The great law of Sirius is the law of karma on the third subplane of the cosmic mental plane, which law really controls our logos and his actions in the same way as the ego controls the human personality.

Alpha:   OK.   Well that tends to substantiate what we are thinking, that Sirius is really focused on the fifth subplane of the cosmic mental plane. 

… You could say that Sirius is an influence that stimulates the higher self of the Solar Logos the way Venus is an influence which stimulates the higher self of the Earth egoic lotus.  But you can’t say that one is the egoic lotus of another.

Beta:   It is just the source of the energy that qualifies it.

Alpha:   That is right.  Now there is a place where the ways in which the logoi come down.  How far down they come is listed.  And it is listed in four tabulations.  And it is somewhere between the three hundred and five hundreds, in Cosmic Fire.  …

 (Tape pause)

Alpha:   All right we are on page 331, and we are talking about a Solar Logos, a Heavenly Man and a man which again perhaps, loosely, the term Heavenly Man as being used for Planetary Logos.  This is where, you remember earlier, I said that the Solar Logos extends no lower physically than the buddhic plane.  And that is why, interestingly enough, there is a closer correspondence between a Solar Logos and a man than there is between a man and a Planetary Logos. 

I mean, when ever you are looking for parallels it seems that the Solar Logos and the  man are closer together ...  and this is so interesting because for a Solar Logos, you see vibration, light, colour, and sound – that is a normal sequence in which sound paradoxically is put third rather than first or second.  But what is really interesting is that it is easy enough to see how the logoic plane is vibratory, monadic is light, and sound is atmic fine, and colour is buddhic, of course the blending of all qualities.  But in comes this very strange Heavenly Man – where vibration is monadic, and light is atmic, and sound is buddhic, and colour is mental.  …

Beta:   This would make sense to me if the Heavenly Man is the ego; the electrical vibration is his source as a ray lord on the second plane. … If we say the Heavenly Man is on the buddhic plane as the ego of the planetary entity, the planetary logos, the ego as one of the periodical vehicles, then on the plane monadic the planetary logos is called a ray lord .  This is where a heavenly man is focussed, on the buddhic plane, and would start coming in as a ray lord.

Alpha:   OK.   You are saying that the Heavenly Man is a ray lord?  … But let’s not forget that the causal body which is the ego of the Planetary Logos is focused on the cosmic mental plane.  And so when you say the ego of the Heavenly Man is focussed on the buddhic plane that is so much lower as to be almost too low, isn’t it?

Beta:   Did you say cosmic mental?

Alpha:   I said that the egoic lotus of the Planetary Logos is focused on the cosmic mental plane.  And now did you just say that there is an ego on our buddhic plane?

Gamma:   Well it is not the same Heavenly Man. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  If what Beta says is correct.

Beta:   Well, I only think of the planetary names in terms of their usage in our seven solar planes.  Because, obviously, the causal body of the Planetary Logos is on the cosmic mental.  The Planetary Logos seems to incarnate through three mental vibrations, two astral and then seven physical. 

Alpha:   The Planetary Logos seems to ... ?

Beta:   That is still from a sort of human perspective.  

Alpha:   Well, OK, the point is, I think that the use of the word Heavenly Man is again loose.  I think that we have been considering three kinds of atoms: a solar atom, a planetary atom, and a man atom.  And I think that this is one of those tabulations where he is not being technical about the term Heavenly Man.

Beta:   I find that what is still equally difficult is that from Heavenly Man to  man you go from the monadic plane to the buddhic plane.  Atmic plane is not mentioned in there. 

Alpha:   Yes.  And I want to know what entity, what missing entity, has its electrical vibration on the atmic plane, because there has got to be one.

Delta:   Solar life.  Aren’t solar lives in between?

Alpha:   OK.   You mean like a regent of a chain? 

Delta:   Well, that tabulation, page 844, it shows the goal for each thing after we finish, you know the human mode of evolution and we become a solar Pitris, after that we become planetary logoi, so those solar Pitris are in between planetary logoi and humans.

Beta:   The humans are become solar Pitris because they have to be breathed out by Sirius again.

Delta:   This would be after we finish our ninth initiation.  This all becomes solar Pitris.

Beta:   This is standard.

Alpha:   Generally, Yes.  You know what is interesting about that.  The ninth initiate, he has not yet begun the planetary logos sequence of initiation, correct?  Can we safely say a ninth degree initiate of our range is no where near a planetary logos in stature?

Delta:   Correct.  Because it has to go through a whole other kingdom in nature, the solar Pitris, before they start becoming a centre, a major centre in a Planetary Logos.

Alpha:   OK.   Well that’s rather interesting.  In other words what he is just suggesting here, and this is a very interesting thought, is that the solar kingdom, or the solar Pitris, must have their own series of initiations and that they are somehow midway between man and Planetary Logos.

Delta:   That is how I take it.  Perhaps I am mistaken.  But that is how I take it.

Alpha:   Well it is an inference that could be drawn. 

Gamma:   So this Heavenly Man is not the Heavenly Man he is talking about in other places.  This Heavenly Man ... (inaudible) solar Pitris.

Beta:   If it is Heavenly Men instead of Planetary Logos it might make sense because he embodies or uses certain entities ... to incarnate through.

Alpha:   Doesn’t the factor of (inaudible) also?

Beta:   Yes, yes, but if you have solar logos on the top level of the first tabulation, that is really difficult. Also on 844 you have several other informing lives of the kingdoms, informing lives of the globe, then minor planetary logoi. 

Alpha:   The question is, How many of them represent a complete change of kingdom and how many of them are just sort of qualitative.  … This solar kingdom, as far as I can see, is a Solar level informing life of a kingdom in nature.  It would seem to be informing life of a kingdom on all planets. 

Beta:   These seem to be compulsive or hosts as well, but then they must  have a central entity, they must have a central space or Yajna. 

Alpha:   OK.   This is a very great problem we probably can’t figure out here, its the question to which, the degree to which, every entity is a host.  … Except for the ultimate atom or the ultimate particle – the ultimate smallest possible entity in cosmos – which from a quantum point of view cannot be a host because it is a limited, finite cosmos. 

Beta:   We get our atom …

Alpha:   Our atom is a host; our atom is a tremendously composite being. … And the ultimate physical atom is a host of ultimate astral atoms, and on and on and on, until we get to the ultimate particle of the cosmos about which nothing has been said. 

Delta:   The solar Pitris, being the next goal, the next level, you could just turn back a page to 843 and there is a huge first paragraph near the bottom of that huge first paragraph.  It says:

“It must not be forgotten here that the work of the solar Pitris from their point of view, is not primarily the evolution of man, but is the process of their own development within the plan of the solar Logos. The evolution of the human race is, for them, but a method.”

I feel they are a whole discreet class of entities going on … nine initiations.

Alpha:   But they are a whole discreet class of entities which the human being need not join in his next phase.  Only 80% of human beings will join the solar Pitris class, maybe 75%.   Which is, you know, this is interesting.

Gamma:   What is going to happen to the others?

Alpha:   And not only that, not all lives are listed here because ...

Beta:   Sirius.

Alpha:   Well, they  don’t  have to go to Sirius ... they don’t have to become planetary logoi ... although some few will.  Hence we will skip the solar Pitris class ... and become a ray.  Go on the path of magnetic work. 

Beta:   What about other planets?

Alpha:   Go to other planets in preparation for other paths. 

Delta:   ... different cosmic paths, in other words. … So when we say that this is the Decision at the sixth initiation … consummated in the ninth? 

Alpha:   Not entirely.  Decided at the sixth, but not all beings take the eighth and ninth initiation within our planetary sphere; it is considered to be too difficult.  It is not that people don’t take the eighth and ninth initiation but within our planetary sphere it is extraordinarily difficult so it is possible to veer off and take those expansions ...

Delta:   So much for a sentimental spoof for the year 2001 might be the masters talking in 2001, So, “What are you doing after you graduate?”  “No ... what are you doing?”

Alpha:   “I have decided to stay at home and take care of a few things that are hanging over.”   Of course what is interesting about the path of Earth service is that it is a limited path and that only certain vacancies are available.

Gamma:   Yes, you know, just 63 masters …

Alpha:   63 masters … in a lodge.  But then again, that is nice, except if you extrapolate.  If you extrapolate that there are 49 ashrams with supposedly masters more or less at the heart of them except for a few arhats.  And if even DK has five masters in his ashram, the numbers would expand beyond the 63.  Could one extrapolate on that basis, if one says that a master can have a number of other masters working with him we would have more than 63 masters in a lodge, unless that is just such an exception that DK has five.

Delta:   Where was that 63 figure cited  ... or how was that cited?

Gamma:   It is said in Masonry and it is said in this here (inaudible). There are more than 63 masters working for humanity.

Alpha:   Except for the 105 kumaras whose places are taken by masters now.  Unless they are not technically considered masters if they have gone into chohanship, or whatever.  Because among the kumaras there were those who are beyond the fifth degree.  So maybe it is being very technical about saying only 63 master, but the other degrees are present.

By the way 63 is a fantastic number because the two numbers of completion are, in multiplication, in that number. … 7 x 9 is really important, the seven sevens and nines. 

Although, what I want to say about the chart on page 844 is that, clearly, certain kingdoms or certain orders of entities are not really included here.  Rays, you know what I mean.  What does it mean to go on to the cosmic path of magnetic work?  That is not included.

Beta:   It says, on 843, a paragraph which stands by itself: 

“Perfected men are in the councils of the planetary Logos of their particular ray; the solar Pitris are in the council of the solar Logos.”

Alpha:   Exactly.  So what Delta said about solar lives ... Ahhh!  Wait a second!  That was most interesting.  Why don’t we extend the idea that the vibratory level of the solar life is on the atmic plane.  This could correlate … some connection between the triads (the fleur de lis), and the solar lives.  The solar lives as they manifest upon the manasic plane may be called, may be related to the fifth hierarchy. (Look at this table of creative hierarchies.)

But it is by the rejection of the triads that a man precipitates himself into the eighth sphere, right?  In other words, the third creative hierarchy is called the triads.  And it is by the rejection of the triads that a man precipitates himself into the eighth sphere.  So, it is also by rejection of the solar angels that a man precipitates himself into the eighth sphere. … So there is an equivalence here. 

What I am trying to say is suppose you stick the solar lives on the atmic plane, monadically. In other words, suppose you say that their vibration is on the atmic plane.  This would be a very interesting way of connecting them to the spiritual triads, to the triads on the hierarchy table, because I have always been struck by the fact that, Who are those triads anyway?  And why should a man go into the eighth sphere if he rejects the triads.  …

Beta:   Because it is part of the planetary constitution or a solar constitution and it does serve as a cut off point.  That is the whole nature of evil in a sense.

Alpha:   Yeah, and it is.  So interesting that it is connected with the number eight, the number three … But who are they?  Do you know how much Blavatsky says about them?  One line.  You turn to the Secret Doctrine where group number three is discussed of the creative hierarchies.  She has only one line about them, which I thought is amazingly scanty.  Now later DK says more. 

Delta:   What do you mean by the eighth sphere? …

Alpha:   OK, by eighth sphere one either means the lower manasic plane as a segregated unit.  Or, one means a level of vibration so low that it is not included among our seven planes because it is vestigial. 

Beta:   It is cut off.  It implies humans cutting themselves off from their own souls.

Alpha:   Yeah.  That is right, from their own souls.

Delta:  Are you saying it is avitchi?

Alpha:  Avitchi … Now the interesting thing is, from a certain point of view, materiality itself, dense materiality can be considered as an eighth sphere. …

Gamma:   Avitchi is what?  I don’t know what it means.

Alpha:   Well, it means waveless.  It is the negative correspondence to parabrahman.  In a way, waveless.  You see, the very highest state that you can achieve is so rapid that it is waveless, and the very lowest state you can achieve is so nothing that it is waveless.  It is like nothing, negation.

Gamma:   It is not in one of the planes?

Alpha:   Thats … thats … Yes, he says the ill-fated thirteenth, number thirteen, has to do with the fact that the fifth creative hierarchy is dual.  So part of the fifth creative hierarchy manifests in relation to the lower mental planes, and part to the higher mental planes.  Anyway, this is an issue that has been on my mind, I don’t say we can solve it, but I wonder if there is something about the solar lives that include hierarchy three that’s and a dual hierarchy five.  Three and five. 

                        And he also said that we came from a solar system where there are levels of matter about which we know nothing.  And I am wondering if somehow they don’t fall almost all the way through our seven principled planes and get involved with some level of matter that is so dense that we can’t even deal with them. 

Delta:   It talks about lower elemental things, that the monster being put back in its place [was why] our Solar Logos, out of compassion, incarnated and  roused something that shouldn’t have been roused.

Beta:   ... the beast from its den.

Delta:   Yeah.

Alpha:   And the Planetary Logos made the same mistake.  And the Buddha made the same mistake.  Premature compassion is very dangerous. 

Delta:   Let that be a lesson to you in inviting too many people!

Alpha:   Oh, but it is so true. It’s a lack of co-measurement, and a lack of knowledge of capabilities. 

Gamma:   Yeah, it is a defect of the second ray.

Alpha:   Yes, it is a defect of the second ray.  And both of them are second ray souls.  Both the Solar Logos and the Planetary Logos.

Delta:   The Buddha and the Planetary Logos are dispelled with second ray glamours. 

Beta:   The immediate problem is getting people out of the four fold mental unit into the buddhic, for this round.  From the fourth to the transition, fifth.  Otherwise we could have a failure like the moon chain, to a certain extent.  I mean, it could aggravate that.

Alpha:   You see that is like the eighth sphere.  … Where is this?

Beta:   Well … he gives it an insubstantiation of the humans that pass the stage of pitris ( page 878-879).  It talks about, actually he is talking about the solar angels, and before the causal body is completely destroyed the four groups that are the heart of the sun, the three higher, to the central spiritual sun, or the head of the sun. 

Alpha:   There are different types of solar angels, right?

Beta:   This is true.  This is the kama and the manasic angels, in a sense, but this is at the end of manifestation. At the top of 879: 

“The Pitris who formed the egoic body of a human being do not–alone and isolated–form planetary Logoi. The forty-nine groups of solar fires concerned in the great work are those spoken of, and they become the forty-nine planetary Logoi in connection with seven solar systems.”

So this is, in a sense (… the host, yeah), but also I think it implies that ... pitris, that we could become in a future system ... that can be bypassed in the sense of either going to the heart or to the head.  Because if you go to the heart then that means that you have to be breathed out by Sirius.  You go to the head and you, perhaps, don’t ...

Alpha:   ... go to the head of what?

Beta:   ... the central spiritual sun.  The head centre.

Delta:   Why do we associate Sirius with the heart if is on the cosmic mental plane?

Beta:   The twelve petalled lotus of the egoic body ... its the middle principle on the mental plane.

Alpha:   Sirius is ... what?  Wait ....I don’t see.

Beta:   The three fold mental constitution, Sirius represents the egoic body of the Solar Logos.  It is not the pure abstract mind or  manasic permanent atom, which is probably more Uranus associated.

Alpha:   But it can’t really represent that.  I mean all it can be is … Sirius is its own entity.  Doesn’t it just feed that?

Beta:   Yeah, exactly ... but it also ...

Delta:   It is in a manner of speaking a twelve-petalled lotus on the cosmic mental plane.

Beta:   It is like Venus.  It co-ordinates all the egoic affairs on the planet.

Alpha:   It does co-ordinate ... yes it co-ordinates, OK, Venus may have a place within the logoic quaternary rather than be a heart centre.  It may be a solar plexus centre. 

Beta:   But as a scheme or as a chain, and ...

Alpha:   ... as a scheme within the solar logos.

Beta:   Exactly.  It gets synthesised into one of the higher planets.

Alpha:   ... probably Neptune. 

Beta:   Yes, in the higher four, the tetraktys, well it would be the sun and the three synthesising planets probably.  But, what does the sun veil?  Another incarnation.

Alpha:   OK.  ... Wait a second now, one of the things we are going to have to take out is what each planet represents within the solar system in this incarnation of the Solar Logos. 

Delta:   What chakra it represents? What scheme?

Alpha:   What chakra a scheme represents in the present incarnation of the Solar Logos.  We are going to have to take that up.  [Dinner break coming up]  but, before we leave …

What we have done was to assume that between man, a Heavenly Man and a Solar Logos, between man and a Heavenly Man there may be a whole other order of kingdoms that has vibratory power on the atmic plane, light on the buddhic plane (which is interesting), sound on the mental plane, and colour on the astral plane.  See, so there is a great challenge there.  And Delta is suggesting that this might be the kingdom of solar lives. 

Then what this led us into is a consideration of the kingdoms and their progress on page 844.  And we discussed therefore whether all human beings would necessarily become solar Pitris or whether there were other lines of progress for them.

                We also concluded that not all groups of lives were listed either on 844 or on 331 ... but there are whole different groups of lives that could possibly be listed. 

Beta:   One is the logos.  One is the Heavenly Man.  And one is man (simple).  So are there, yeah, plane factors, plane schemes?

Gamma:   Here you don’t have the egoic lotus.  (inaudible)

Alpha:   This is the egoic lotus.  The Heavenly Man manifests through the egoic lotuses and not on the mental plane, per se.  In particular, suppose you get a solar life in there and it comes down onto the mental plane in terms of sound.  Does that tell us anything about how a causal body was gathered?  In other words, what is the relationship between a solar life and a causal body?  This is the question.  A solar life is related to a causal body how?  Solar life is the consciousness, the subjective life, and a causal body is some sort of vehicle.  In the beginning was the word …

(end of tape 4A)

Alpha:   Beta began to differentiate between angels, pitris and lords.  This is one of those differentiations similar to the differentiation within the planetary logoic life of … logoic, Heavenly Man, Spirits before the Throne, Ray Lords and entities.  So basically what Beta is offering is a view of these composite beings as they manifest on different planes.  There is a great discrimination going on here and we have to see whether we can understand the various levels of manifestation of the Solar Kingdom, or the Solar Lives (let’s call it that), and then those of the Planetary Logoi. 

Another thing too is ...we have to ask ourselves whether members of the seventh kingdom, who are called Solar Lives, are the same lives as the Solar Angels, or whether, in fact, the solar lives are evolving along the human line and the solar angels are a member of a completely different order.  Because, in a waywhat is going on is a Chohan is a member of the Planetary Spirits, the sixth kingdom.  When a Chohan moves to its next phase, has it entered the Agnishvattas or is it simply Shamballic lives which were former humans?

Beta:   Is it just a question of identification with those lives and merging with them at some …

Alpha:   ... well we will get into it.

(tape interrupted)

Alpha:  All right, Good evening.  This is the bitter end of the first day, and we have been dealing with very abstract studies.  Around the supper table we discussed the growing influence of Polaris. What else did we discuss? The orientation of our solar system towards Vega. 

Beta:   Yeah, it is the relation of Krishna to Vega.

Alpha:   Discussed the Star of Toulan.  What else?

Epsilon:   The initiation of the Planetary Logos, minor and nearly initiations.

Alpha:   OK.  And many more good things.  Now the time has come by popular demand, no longer to be quite so abstract this evening. 

And as a result, certain astrological conversations have begun to bubble up to the surface.  And this is all engineered by Delta who wants to bust: what do you want to bust, Delta?

Delta:   I just want to have esoteric astrology actually addressed, the issues that esoteric astrology addresses, which are the initiations, rays, the bodies the dimensions we exist in.

Alpha:   OK.  So we are going to put it to all those people out there in the world who are distorting the subject, and we are going to straighten that out tonight so as to allow them no escape into the line of least resistance.  And, you know, whatever initiation the Solar Logos or Planetary Logos is working towards at the moment is not the issue of the evening.  So, Delta,  you want us to go on pause?

(tape paused)

Alpha:   OK.   Lets take a horoscope. 

Delta:   Well we’ll take a horoscope of a disputed rising sign.  So take the United States’ horoscope.  We’ll agree that the United States was born July 4, 1776, at six in the afternoon with Sagittarius rising.  …

[snip: much deleted here as discussion ensued over usefulness of reviewing this chart.]

Delta:   Well what I would like to focus on is what stage is the United States? Maybe we should take a person instead of a country. 

Alpha:   Maybe.  Because the United States is not even a disciple yet.

Delta:   OK.  Let’s take a person. 

[snip]

Alpha:   Someone we know is an initiate of some standing, or at least a disciple; What about Alice Bailey? …

Delta:  Alice Bailey thinks she has Pisces rising.

Alpha:  She only says ‘might’.  She says it adds up, but she never confirmed it.  Cause she is a mediator and that is why she said it. 

Beta:   Right.  Want to give her Leo, 8 Leo rising, is that it?

Alpha:  Yeah.  Leo rising, 11 degrees or something. …

Delta:   Let’s do Alice Bailey. 

Alpha:   Want to do HPB.  That is not disputed.

Delta:   I don’t want to do Alice Bailey.  Look, we think she is a third degree initiate.  And therefore we should go Sidereal.

Alpha:   No.  I don’t think that.  …

 (tape paused)

Delta:   So given that Alice Bailey was born June 16, 1880 at around 7:25, in the morning, rectified, so approximately that time.  That would give her Jupiter, the midheaven, Saturn in Aries, Neptune and Pluto in Taurus, Venus and the sun in Gemini, the South Node and Mercury in Cancer, the Ascendant and Mars in Leo, Uranus in Virgo and the Moon in Libra.  With a Ray structure of Ray 2 soul; Ray 1 personality; Ray 1 mental; Ray 2 astral; Ray 7 physical. 

How would we interpret this chart esoterically.  By that I mean let’s start off with the Ray 2 soul.  Ray two is ruled by the three signs of the triangle of Virgo, Pisces and Gemini.  And it is also ruled by the planet Jupiter, Jupiter and the Sun.  Virgo is esoterically ruled by the Moon veiling Vulcan or Neptune.

Beta:   Ehhh, Neptune. … in parenthesis.  But say for the second ray ruler,  next to the sun, because it is a second ray soul.

Gamma:   Yeah, Neptune.

Delta:   So, given that we’ve decided we have decided that she is sensitive to her soul ray and the soul ray is two.  … First of all, what chakras would ray two be operating through?  She is a ray two soul.  How is she polarised chakra wise.  And how would that affect her chakras?

Alpha:   Well, the heart centre, and the heart within the head. 

Gamma:   And possibly the ajna.  Because ajna is the connection with the Hierarchy … And it sometimes represents the second ray principle.

Alpha:   Un-ha.  It does.  So we can look at, what does it say about an initiate, up to the third degree.

Gamma:   You have that in the triangle here.

Delta:  Well, usually it says from between the first and third the crown is ruled by Uranus, the ajna is ruled by Mercury and throat is ruled by Saturn. 

Alpha:   Between the first and the third, it says that?

Delta:   Yes, as a general trend.

Beta:   But there is a persuasive influence of Uranus on the throat.

Delta:   Yeah.  I agree.

Alpha:   Heart, seven head centres, and two many-many-petalled lotuses.  …

Delta:   Well, I am just giving the rule from the book.  Obviously it could vary, but in Esoteric Healing somewhere it says disciples between the first and third initiation, after the first, but before the third  … let’s say we are assuming Alice Bailey is after the first and before the third.

Alpha:   … No we are not; she is the third degree. 

Delta:   That is why I said I didn’t want to do her chart.  The third degree should be sidereal.

Alpha:   No, but I don’t think it should be Sidereal.  How can we just assume that ...

Beta:   It’s both.  I always assume both.  Because you always have to operate through the public and through your lower vehicles, which are very much conditioned by this tropical ...

Delta:   I didn’t want to choose a chart of a third degree initiate because I think their charts get analysed differently than most other charts.  I’d like to come up with a methodology for analysing somebody who is on the path but ...

Alpha:   Why don’t you just pretend it is tropical?

Delta:   OK.  I’ll pretend it is tropical.  And, I’ll pretend she is not a third degree initiate.

Beta:   OK.  She had Leo rising.  First of all a person, whoever this is, has Leo rising.  And I find, in terms of the rulers of Leo, the first set of rulers for the personality I assign as the trigon as Jupiter, Saturn, because Saturn rules the solar permanent atom and Jupiter are the three solar energies that pass, that channels the agent for the three solar energies from the physical.

Delta:   One second.  How did Jupiter and Saturn tie in with Leo?  I missed that.  It is the first set of rulers for Leo?  Leo isn’t ruled by Saturn.

Beta:   It is.  It’s veiled.  The sun veils Jupiter, Saturn on the first level.  It veils Neptune on the second; Uranus on the third, as far as I can see.

Delta:   Well, I have never seen it the same.  As sun veils Jupiter-Saturn.

Beta:   Yeah, but I do that all the time.  I know maybe I shouldn’t deal with hypothetical … but, I assumed that immediately, she has Jupiter, Saturn conjunct.  Jupiter-Saturn rules the status quo establishment.  It means that any disciple, particularly of third degree, has to handle the establishment and put them in their place.  And if you have a conjunction of something favorable it is important.

Alpha:   Well, it comes from the assumption that no Sun, or Moon is a true ruler of any sign.  That is what he is saying.

Beta:   And on the discipleship, here the Neptune level, she has Neptune square Mars which is a perfect signature for the third degree if you think of the moon veiling Neptune instead of Vulcan.  Or, just the Moon-Mars, which is obviously a factor itself.  But the moon can also veil Neptune and certain subtle identifications are made with Mars-Neptune aspects, it’s said, in the third initiation.

Delta:   Well, I guess wherever people want to go with is fine, but I’d like to get some simple building blocks that are ...

Beta:   These are absolutely straight forward.  I used this for ten years.

Delta:   I think what you are saying is good especially in terms of the rising sign.  (inaudible) obviously for the ray two soul we should look at her ascendant.  Well, whatever the ray is of the soul we should look at her ascendant. So what I am saying is Leo, and Leo is ruled by the sun and the sun veiling Neptune.  And for the third degree initiate the sun veiling Uranus. 

Beta:   Yeah, but as a personality too you need to put that first factor, the contact with the public. 

Delta:   So you said that ...

Beta:   Jupiter-Saturn. I just depict it as a triangle.

Delta:   OK. … I am not saying your opinion is wrong but it is not in any of the books. 

Beta:   It is.

Alpha:   There is a place where Jupiter is interestingly connected with Leo.

Delta:   Some of the triangles.  But not the rulerships.

Alpha:   No, there is a funny connection there of Jupiter with Leo that makes you think that it is the ruler.

Delta:   Well, also Jupiter rules the traditional astrology, going back thousands of years, the fire trigon of Aries, Leo, Sagittarius. 

Alpha:   But, nevertheless.  We  don’t have to approach it that way.  Let’s see what you’re trying to get at.  In other words, this is for you to use the group mind here to help clarify a method of an approach to the chart that you have been working on and thinking about. 

Delta:   So, let’s assume Jupiter is important because it is a major second ray planet also.

Alpha:   ... in this case.

Delta:   ... in any case.

Alpha:   Jupiter, by definition, rules the second ray.  Right?  Because she is a second ray soul. 

Delta:   Yeah.  Because she is a second ray soul.  If you were a first ray soul, you would use Pluto.  Or, a third ray soul, use Saturn.  And then, we would of course always look at the Ascendant which would yield subrays of the soul.  Or, else the same ray as the soul.

Alpha:   Um-hmm.

Beta:   The ascendant?

Delta:   Yeah.  Because the Ascendant is the soul’s potential in this incarnation ... where he is to develop, right?

Beta:   You are not looking at the Sun from the soul’s ray are you?

Alpha:   OK, I have the reference, page 297.  It could be variously interpreted: 

“In connection with the Mutable Cross, the rays of the Sun in a threefold form (combining the lowest energies of the threefold Sun) pour into and through the man, via Jupiter.  Jupiter is the agent of the second ray which the Sun expresses—cosmically and systemically.”

Delta:   OK, but that is for the mutable cross, because Jupiter rules Sagittarius and Pisces.

Alpha:   Well that is what she thinks. The Mutable Cross is the orthodox ruler.

Delta:   But she is not on the Mutable Cross.

Alpha:   No. No.

Beta:   She is.  She is a Gemini.

Delta:   She is not, in consciousness, she is not on the Mutable Cross.

Beta:   Yeah, but she is still a Gemini. And if you say it sidereally where she is a Taurus.  She is on the fixed cross. … As far as I am concerned, she is both.

Alpha:   In a sub sense she would be both.  And therefore you would have to consider both.  All I have to say is this ties in Jupiter with Leo.  It is in the Leo chapter.

Gamma:   Is not Jupiter in exultation in Leo.

Alpha:   No, it is in Cancer ....in exultation. 

Delta:   But this doesn’t tie it in with Leo.  It says in connection with the Mutable Cross.  It doesn’t say in connection with Leo. 

Alpha:   It is right in the Leo chapter.  Followed by the statement:

“Hence the triple relation of the Sun to Leo which is unique in our solar system, and hence the importance of the triangle which controls the man born under Leo.”

Here he reiterates: “the Sun, Uranus …”

Delta:   “The Sun, Uranus, and Neptune” – not Jupiter.

Alpha:   No.  But, Jupiter is suspiciously present right before this.  I think there is a hint there.  Anyway, its ....

Delta:   Well, what everyone is saying is good, but what I … would like to narrow it down to two or three or four factors of really major relevance.  So, another point that had been brought up, since she is a disciple we would especially look at the rulers of the fixed cross.  In other words I am trying to do one thing at a time. … And also shift it away from the normal way of interpreting charts. 

Alpha:   What I see as being the important thing that is really on your mind, is to shift it away from the usual catch-all’s.

Delta:   Yes. … so the esoteric ruler of Taurus is Vulcan.  I’ll just use the esoteric rulers of Leo, Neptune. Of Scorpio, Mars and Pluto.  And for Aquarius I will use Jupiter.  So all these planets would be important.

            You see, by listing these things already.  Just with this one thing we’ve, looking at the soul, we have so many things to look at.  And I agree these things are really there to look at.  We have to use our intuition as to what is most important, but I think it would be somehow good if we could put this in a way would be a simple building block for somebody.

Beta:   Third initiation.  Moon-Mars.  Moon veils Neptune.  They are in conflict.  They are in square in her chart.  They are also in the cusp.

Delta:   She is working on the third initiation. 

Alpha:   This is something she probably passed in the life.  … What I am trying to say is because she was a preacher in her early life it obviously showed that she had second initiation capabilities.  And you know there was a certain point at which she probably passed the third degree.  In other words, the Moon-Mars square could have indicated that possibility.

Delta:   OK.  So let’s say her soul ray is two. And given that she is a second ray soul, how would we tie these various factors in with the third initiation, assuming we decided she has finished the second initiation and is working on the third. 

Alpha:   Or just what does it say about her soul expression, in general?  … Well, it says, it is extremely authoritative.  And forget the pioneering part, although that is there because her soul planet is on the midheaven. I mean that she is a prominent example in the public of a second ray soul demonstration. 

Delta:   And what if her soul planet were, let’s say, in the twelfth house?

Alpha:   She would be much more subjective, wouldn’t you say?

Delta:   Well, I would say on one hand.  But on the other, wouldn’t somebody approaching the third initiation be starting to go past the limitations of the houses?

Alpha:   It depends on how you interpret the houses. 

Delta:   Because he talks you know, that the houses deal more with the mutable cross.  It is like more the field of objective experience.

Alpha:   But what if  you literally do interpret the houses as he does: causal body first house. 

Delta:   ... on the higher level.

Alpha:   That is a big thing.  To say causal body first house.  That is not necessarily .......

Beta:   Mars is trine Jupiter.  It is profoundly creative.

Delta:   Well, what chakras do we think she is working on for the third initiation.

Alpha:   Well, she is a visionary and a telepath. Tremendous ajna centre. 

Delta:   So the third initiation, we are working on the ajna chakra. 

Alpha:   And look at that Sun-Venus conjunction in the telepathic sign Gemini.

Delta:   What do we think rules her ajna chakra?  Or let’s say Jupiter is the main ...

Gamma:   Ajna is ruled by Mercury.

Alpha:   Venus and Mercury wouldn’t you say.

Delta:   But that is a general rule.  What about her personally?

Alpha:   But how do we know, I mean wouldn’t you say that her telepathic receptivity is reflected by a Mercury-Cancer position?  But in general, soul telepathy, Venus in Gemini, you couldn’t get anything more indicative.  And it is a second ray planet also in one respect. 

Delta:   Well, I guess I am trying to shift this away. Not that I think that the signs and houses are irrelevant, but I want to get it away from the old context, and not that the old context is meaningless, but I want to put it into a new context, such as the chakras.  Cause he says this at the end of Esoteric Astrology:  there will be a new astrology developed, you know, based on Laya Yoga and the chakras.  Somewhere in here.  Maybe we should put this on pause. 

(tape paused)

Delta:   At the bottom of 512.  It says in ‘undeveloped’ man ...

Alpha:   “Cause the ray type does not emerge until there is some measure of advancement.”

Delta:   Just the sentence before that:

“In undeveloped man, the five non-sacred planets control, with the head and the heart centres under the rule of two sacred planets, which planets being determined by the rays of the soul and of the personality.”

But, I guess what I am trying to do is develop the Laya Yoga part here. The question is, Which chakras you would be working on.  And it is not that I am trying to down play anything anyone said.

Alpha:   Well, wait a second, he said that Alice Bailey had a big problem in her life transferring her solar plexus centre to her heart centre.  OK.  That was one of here themes.  That she had to do that. 

Gamma:   So that could come from her Mars on the rising ....

Alpha:   Well it’s clear that the Mars square Neptune can indicate that.  [Transferring ...] solar plexus to the heart.  That was one of her tasks.  And there is much pain in it, and that her doing that was mentioned to another person who was trying to do the same thing. 

Delta:   I’d like to move in towards this central paragraph on page 563.  It says:     

“It should be noted that there are seven forms of light, related to the substance of the seven planes.  These are stimulated and enhanced by the twelve forms of light of the twelve Creative Hierarchies, related each of them to one or other of the twelve signs of the zodiac.  On this I may not enlarge as it concerns the mysteries of the higher initiations.  I simply make the statement so that it may be appreciated by you as an occult fact to the proof of which you may not yet have access.  A paralleling statement would be ...”

... and here is the key thing: “... that the light of the seven centres in man (when enhanced by the light of the seven planetary centres) and the five kingdoms in nature (7+5=12), plus the twelve lights of the zodiac ...” The twelve lights of the zodiac is the traditional stuff we have been discussing. These

“... will produce a consummation of “light” effectiveness which will make possible the expression of the whole.  This, through the medium of humanity.  This is a basic statement which means little to you as yet but which will—in the next century—form a seed thought or “key sound” for the next revelation of the Ageless Wisdom.”

So the core part of this thing, the seven centres in man resonating with the seven planetary centres, is the Laya yoga, mentioned on page 515, I think. …

Beta:   I love this because it is interesting between creative hierarchies and kingdoms. 

Alpha:   Un-hmm.  Well is it not possible that the zodiacal signs have a certain tendencies to blend with the chakras in certain ways?

Delta:   Yeah.  And that is what I would like to discuss a lot.

Alpha:   And I think that it is pretty possible to go through the list of chakras and talk about particular affinities of the twelve signs with the chakras, at different stages of evolution.

Delta:   Yeah.  That would be worth while.  Maybe we should do that instead of this.

Alpha:   Well, but this is fine.  You are on the track of something.  I think it would only be satisfying to try to break through this a little bit. 

Delta:   Well we have to … discuss the planetary rulers of the chakras at different times and with the signs. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  Well. OK.   She’s .....  You see ....You don’t want to consider the signs themselves though, you see. 

Delta:   I am willing to consider them and anything as long as it goes back to the idea of interpreting the chakras and the movement of energy.

Alpha:   You see this Venus in Gemini as the exoteric ruler of her sun sign is extremely important in what she did. 

Delta:   But how does that tie in with her problem of the solar plexus, the heart and …

Alpha:   That one doesn’t.  I mean, her solar plexus to the heart has to be related to the Mars-Neptune-Moon …

Beta:   Pluto is very significant in certain stages with the higher stages of the solar plexus.

Alpha:   Yeah.  It can be.  It is not particularly in aspect.  In other words, her emotional problem, the fears she suffered from fear all her life and all that, this is that Mars-Moon-Neptune thing, basically … Mars-Neptune  is the lower solar plexus and the higher solar plexus … which are in square in this case.  So, that is a problem.  And it also involves a lot of early idealism.  She may have changed from a sixth ray astral body …

Delta:   Now one second.  Just stick with that one idea: Mars-Neptune.  I agree in this case it does totally involve the solar plexus.  But couldn’t we also look at it in any other cases as involving the sacral centre for many people? 

Alpha:   The sacral centre for many people, yes.  Personal assertions from the sacral centre.  Yes.  It could.

Delta:   Usually people have wild sex lives, but not necessarily very fulfilling, that is Mars-Neptune.  It is usually, traditional astrologists tend to be more sacral.  But, I agree, in this case, it clearly shows the solar plexus. 

Alpha:   OK.  We have to take her stage of evolution into consideration.  … So you are talking about one of her personal problems.  Raising to the higher solar plexus ... or to the heart.

Delta:   So for solar plexus she has Mars square Neptune.  What things would you think would rule her heart chakra, Jupiter?

Alpha:   We cannot necessarily say that Neptune does not rule the heart....

Beta:   Neptune rules the head, rules the higher cycles of ....

Delta:   So Neptune rules ...or is in partial rulership of the heart chakra.

Alpha:   I tell you .....Neptune can be assigned in three places ... four places.  It can be  assigned to the twelve petalled lotus in the head relating to pure reason.  It can be assigned to the ajna at a certain point of evolution, definitely, I mean he says that under the ajna centre in the same section as Beta read ...

Delta:   ... resonance to the heart in a certain point.

Alpha:   Sure.  They are all connected ... these three are definitely connected with the heart centre because the solar flame, heart of the sun, and solar plexus.  So those four centres are all Neptunian centres, it just depends on where we want to read it.

Beta:   there is something else too that I have been using for a long time.  I talked with Alpha about this that in looking at. I only have a small number of discipleship charts but when I looked at the ones I have I found that almost all of them had, was their soul rays connected to the planetary node that was conjunct the ascendant.  In this case it is Neptune: 10 degrees Leo, heliocentrically. 

Delta:   That is very interesting. 

Alpha:   Soul ray is connected, but Now Beta, didn’t you tell me that heliocosims were connected?  I don’t want to get off the subject but ...

Beta:   I find them definitely...

Alpha:   Yeah.  OK  ... not to get off the subject, we can take it up another time.  OK.   Where do you want to go next, Delta?  You are looking a chakras.

Delta:   … Let’s just look at these two chakras to keep things simple instead of (involving) everything.  We have decided that one of the major problems facing her in this lifetime would be a transition of the energies from the solar plexus to the heart.  What would facilitate that and what would impede it.  And what other planets might be involved?

Alpha:   The trine from Jupiter to Mars is a facilitator in the transfer of solar plexus to the heart. 

Delta:   And you are saying that because....

Alpha:   Jupiter is the second ray planet correlated with heart and Mars is sixth ray solar plexus ... the fact that there is a trine there means it is facilitated.

Delta:   So I put Jupiter down here for the heart too ...  Everyone is agreed with that, I guess.  Its also a transfer between a non-sacred and a sacred planet. 

Gamma:   (This is) pertaining to just regular astrology again, it is a personal problem she has, and we are trying to get the rays and the chakras ...

Alpha:   Well, he is trying to develop and approach to astrology that is a chakra approach to astrology.  So, we may isolate here for a minute the fact that its solar plexus and heart ....   OK.   But then we can take it higher than that too. 

Gamma:   Ajna.  Because we have decided that Ajna was so very functional.

Delta:   Do we think Neptune is one of the co-rulers of her ajna chakra in her particular case?

Alpha:   Well, she was a tremendous psychic and sensitive.

Delta:   Yeah.  So I would go along with that.

Gamma:   You know, Delta, its not in anything less.

Alpha:   Mercury, Venus, and, you know we can find a reference in Esoteric Healing, but at some point Neptune does come in.  …

Beta:   Cancer is the only sign that has pure unveiled Neptunian energy on the personality level; there is no unveiled Neptune in any of the other signs ...only in Cancer.  And Neptune is the ruler of the second solar system.  It is also, I mean, there are so many things there, it is the initiator for this world period, for the Christ, the Initiator is called Neptune.

Delta:   Well, I guess one of the things I would be proposing is to decide on the chakra rulerships.  We wouldn’t necessarily look at the horoscope at first, per se.  Although we looked at it in conjunction with our intuition.

Beta:   I associate Neptune with head centre, personally.

Alpha:   ... the whole head centre?

Beta:   The thousand petalled ... all the major factors in the head centre. 

Alpha:   But since it is particularly Buddhic and love related ...

Beta:   I had Jupiter too for odd reasons and Vulcan.  But, this is something that I have to write about.  Its not readily apparent.  … I’m not sure, you know.

Delta:   Well, we are trying to decide what rays and/or planets might be associated with her ajna chakra.  You can see how hard it is for us.  You can imagine what it is like for the general public to do with this.

Beta:   Well, we have Mercury, right?

Alpha:   Well, we know the ones that are classically assigned: Mercury and  Venus. … See Venus is

peculiarly important.  She is the soul imprint ... if you will. 

Beta:   ... also the mind of God. All the issues surrounding the mind of god are associated with Mercury and Uranus.

Delta:   But, through the right rulership of the ajna chakra might switch during an incarnation ...  it also might be under different influences at different times. … I think it would behoove us to try to pick a major ruler of her ajna chakra rather than saying ... oh, there are twenty factors that play into it.

Beta:   Mercury is there ... it is all there.  It’s tied in with her Neptunian second ray work.  And it is sextile Uranus ...

Gamma:   You know what I have here also is that Saturn rules the ajna centre for initiates.  With Saturn, Mercury, Venus.

Alpha:   Well, I can see how Saturn would rule because the ajna centre is the place of decision.  But ...

Delta:   But I think we would be wise to try to keep things simple, if we can, and just assign one ray rulership for each chakra.

Alpha:   It is so hard without knowing exactly where the person is ... you know.

Beta:   Mercury has higher aspects also because it is going to be synthesized into Uranus.

Alpha:   Yeah.  It is true.  But ... the question is ... how did Alice Bailey use Mercury?

Delta:   Yeah.  And what ray ruled her ajna chakra?

Alpha:   How did she use her ajna chakra?  That is more to the point. … Well, she was a telepath,  a receiver, and to what extent a sender we don’t know, but a receiver for sure.  Now, did she receive in this area?  Or is telepathy involving the head centre as well? 

Beta:   Well, in order to be clairvoyant and not just overshadowed you have to actually have the sixth petal opened, right? …

Delta:   See ... so, now we come into another topic (which is the same topic) which is we know what the twelve houses and twelve signs mean, we could probably assign higher, more elevated  rulerships to the different houses.  But now we are discussing what is telepathy ruled by?  Is it more the crown chakra, more the ajna in her case.  It is a little of both?  In other words, just as there are definitions for all the twelve houses, it would be good if we could come up with general sets of definitions for the seven chakras: what types of themes are associated with them?

Beta:   We might add some of the throat but, perhaps the alta major because of her speaking with DK. 

Alpha:   Speaking, well, she is dialoging with the soul.  She is dialoging with Venus.  I mean, I am not sure, Delta, in the attempt to find only one ruler for the ajna centre we might be cutting out something quite important.

Delta:   Well I would think that maybe at times the rulership would change or other sub influences would play on it, but do you think there are several rulers for each chakra?

Alpha:   Yes.  I do.

Beta:   I think on different levels.

Alpha:   Yeah. It depends now.

Beta:   ... how they are used.

Delta:   Well, if you are going to say that there are several rulerships for each chakra and maybe, in fact, that is the case, it is going to make it almost impossible to come up with any sort of methodology.

Beta:   No, no ... you just have to see them all at once.  Because, it is the same with the three rulers.  You have to use personality and soul rulers.  And you can’t use just one ... though you might focus on one.  It seems true that with the personality rulers we have the person’s past, and part of their automatic equipment if they are soul focused.  And then in terms of establishing rapport with the public and people who are focused on the personality then they have to use their own personality rulers.  And the same is true with the chakras.  So if she went through a period where Venus ruled her ajna centre she is going to have that in her equipment, so she has to use it as well, but it will probably be focused by Mercury, don’t you think?

Alpha:   Umm.  Yeah.  Is it likely that she would have used Venus through the ajna centre.  Is there anything about her life which suggests that she was using Venus through the ajna centre.

Beta:   She co-operated with him in the language of work.  That is purely manasic, left eye, Venus. 

Alpha:   Uh-haa.  What do you think?

Delta:   I think that there is only really one major rulership, although I think that could change as you took different initiations.  You know, in a lifetime if you went from the first initiation to the second initiation your chakra rulerships might change largely as a result of that.  But, still I would think that it would be mainly one thing.  I would imagine that she might have started off with Venus ruling her ajna chakra because she was already a very integrated person.  And also given that it is in her sun sign, maybe that also shows that that is part of her personality equipment that she came in with.  It would, whatever chakra Venus rules in her chart when she started off, let’s say the ajna, that chakra was functioning in a cohesive and integrated way.

Alpha:   Yeah, well I think that Venus rules the lower antahkarana.  And maybe Mercury rules a bit of the higher.  And the lower antahkarana is looked at as the connection of soul and personality.  And I would say that her person – with Sun/Gemini and Sun/Venus – the chance of having an integrated, soul-infused personality is very strong, but that the higher receptivity might really be facilitated by Mercury.  And there may have been a switch.  And I don’t think it is out of the ball park to consider the receptiveness of Cancer.  Because long ago DK said they developed such a great rapport when she was just a Chela in the light, and he was something superior to that, that South Node/Mercury thing seems part of that receptivity.  … And maybe she was really starting to receive Mercury-wise in the ajna when he began to communicate with her.  That was a facility that was stimulated at that point which may not have been so prominent before.  She might have just been walking around as a fairly luminous intelligent being and then,  switch.

Delta:   It is also like three in one, I think, and gives Mercury and Uranus as ruling the heart which would reflect into the ajna for advanced initiates. 

Beta:   Traditional theosophists say the lower antahkarana is ruled by Saturn and the higher, Venus.

Alpha:   Well.  We know that the higher antahkarana, you mean, is ruled by Venus?

Beta:   It ties into the planetary constitution.

Alpha:   It fits to a degree.  But Mercury is really involved in the antahkarana work. 

Beta:   It certainly co-ordinates the triad.

Gamma:   Yeah.  He is supposed to improve the antahkarana ...

Delta:   It seems as a consensus here ... that the ajna chakra usually has a strong correspondence with Mercury and Venus, in general.

Alpha:   Yes.  And that we can find instances in her life to support both approaches.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

Delta:   And that it is possible that she, perhaps, as she went on switched to Neptune rulership, for example?

Alpha:   Yeah.  Well, now, in all fairness I think I extended the idea because the ajna centre is closely related to the sixth ray.  I extended the idea to Neptune because of the imaginative dreaming aspect of the ajna centre which is the creative visualising centre, divine imagination. I assume Neptune, but if you want to just leave it as Venus controlling the sixth ray, you can leave it as Venus.  However, this seems to come later in the day “it is the organ of idealism therefore and curiously enough it is related to the sixth ray.”  (page 149 of Esoteric Healing).   And to think of the ajna centre as sixth ray you really have to think of it as a bit later in the evolutionary process .  I want to say the ajna centre can be related to almost everywhere, I can justify it. 

Delta:   What do you say for most people: Mercury or Venus would probably be strongly involved?

Alpha:   Not so much Neptune and Saturn.

Delta:   ... not so much Neptune and Saturn for most people … Then can we say that in her case she had to be pretty accurate with what she was doing with the ajna centre.  In other words, her imagination wasn’t being called upon as a factor as much as the fact that she had a certain integrity and facility with language.

Alpha:   Well, we don’t know that because her whole subjective work was hidden.  You know he said it was even more important than what she was doing for the world.  You know, which is a strange thing to say about her, but you know the world does not know what Alice Bailey does.  All I can say is that she was a tremendous example of a soul-infused personality and in order for that to happen the ajna centre has to be activated and Venus is active at the third initiation, the fifth ray. …

Tape  Five  Begins

Delta:   So we are still discussing Alice Bailey’s Chakras on this tape … And since I think a certain imaginative accuracy would be called for, I wouldn’t normally think Neptune would be that accurate, although Neptune in its deeper sense is the ultimate truth.

Alpha:   Neptune is buddhi.

Delta:   Yeah.  And especially in a sign like Taurus which is very concrete I can also see Neptune in Taurus ruling her ajna chakra too.

Alpha:   Yeah, Taurus is associated with the ajna centre.

Delta:   So, maybe in her case she started off with Venus and Gemini ruling her ajna chakra, and maybe went onto Neptune in Taurus ...

Alpha:   ... without abandoning ability.  The important thing to realise is when we move to an esoteric ruler we do not abandon what we had at an earlier level.

Delta:   Yes, she had visional abilities.

Beta:   And look at her work; she couldn’t possibly abandon the entire bridge.  Her antahkarana would have to have been incredibly strong because she had to, in working with DK, He didn’t always the words, he had the symbols and the ideas, but she had to provide all the words and the manasic work, which to me is incredibly Saturnian.  When I see the chart, Jupiter/Saturn immediately jumps out, in relationship to Leo rising. I see that as profoundly important in her work with the world.  It was so important, but, who is Aryan ... show is Aries, the sign of initiation of the initiator, after Capricorn, later in this game, after Capricorn.

Alpha:   Well, she’s shifting the plane of mind but that, you know, that’s  OK.  

Beta:   That’s in relation to the status quo ...

Delta:   ... but I am purposefully trying to shift this onto the most difficult topic, because if we can’t address it then who will be able to address it?

Alpha:   The big question is, that by cutting off one of our arms we can’t give the whole story.

Beta:   Saturn rules the antahkarana, it rules the lower antahkarana.  That is extremely important for someone doing this type of manasic work.  That is all I am saying.  Venus and Saturnean ... how its unusual ...

Alpha:   ... I have a question about that ... because it seems to be that Saturn might very well, I think, rule the entire lower mental plane and its synthesis in the mental unit, which is the base of the antahkarana.  But I can’t see Saturn as the bridge.  I can only see it as a firm foundation.

Beta:   Well, there is exoteric and esoteric Saturn too, I see it in the planetary constitution as very much involved with his planetary lower mind and it involves human antahkaranas. … It would be related to the kumaras, the lords of karma.  And it is definitely involved.

Alpha:   OK.   We are going to lead ourselves into another big subject.  We can’t take that subject.  We can’t take that turn now. 

So ... Delta, what are you taking us to next here?

Delta:   Well, I guess I ad nauseum have made my point, and maybe we should try to discuss the chakras, and it is also obvious that we as somewhat advanced students are having a difficult time, so you can imagine what the public is going to go through.  But anyway, let’s go on to a different topic within the chart:

Blavatsky (in the Secret Doctrine) says that esotericists used to divide cycles into seven.  That was a very important division, and of course, the key to everything we do on the seven planes is seven chakras, so seven is very important.  In astrology there are things called critical degrees.  And they are always multiples of 1/7th of a circle.  From zero, from equinox or solstice points, multiples of 51 degrees 26 minutes, they’re septiles form zero Libra, zero Capricorn, zero Aries, zero Cancer. … So, in other words what is 51 degrees 26 minutes from zero Aries?  21 degrees 26 minutes of Taurus.  That is a critical degree.  What is 51 degrees 26 minutes from zero Cancer ?   21 degrees 26 minutes of Leo.   That is also a critical degree. Zero of all the cardinal’s are critical, 12 degrees 51 minutes of the cardinals are critical.  It is every 12 degrees 51 minutes. 

Alpha:   Every 12 degrees 51 minutes?

Delta:   I am being very precise, not thirteen.  …

Alpha:   I thought you said septiles were involved.  Twelve degrees fifty-one minutes of a cardinal sign ....so if you take twelve degrees fifty-one minutes of Aries ...that’s one hundred two degrees fifty minutes from zero Capricorn .....2/7th of a circle.  In other words, two seventh of a circle is one hundred two degrees fifty minutes.

Beta:   He is using bi-septiles and tri-septiles.

Alpha:   Yeah.  I see that.  But why start at Capricorn?

Delta:   You can start at either Capricorn, Cancer ....

Alpha:   How many critical degrees are there?

Delta:   There are twenty-eight critical degrees.

Alpha:   OK.  That is what I mean.  I didn’t know how many there were: Septiles from every cardinal point.

Delta:   Yeah.  From every cardinal point; multiples of twelve degrees fifty-one minutes. Yes, that is a lot, so I also use a very tight orb and use the precise critical degree.  So, anyway, I use a one degree orb, keep it really tight.  So obviously 1/7th aspects are important anyway.  We all agree on this?  This is in traditional astrology but it has fallen somewhat into disuse. 

But if we look at Alice Bailey’s chart we can see her Moon is in zero Libra, and one seventh of a circle before that is Mars, on a critical degree, nearly fifty-one of Leo.  One seventh of a circle before that is Venus, at seventeen something of Gemini … and then one seventh of a circle before that is Saturn at twenty-six of Aries.  So, in other words she has four: Saturn, Venus, Mars and Moon all in the series of septiles. And not only are they septiles but they are all critical degrees, because they tie in with zero degrees Libra.

Alpha:   The first thing that strikes me is that the lower man, which is Mars-Moon, is completely dominated by the two rulers of the third initiation, Saturn-Mars, which are elevated, Saturn-Venus which are elevated over the two, Mars-Moon.  In other words she has got a perfect set up for a third initiation conflict.

Beta:   Why do you put Saturn-Venus in the third initiation?

Alpha:   They would be rulers of Capricorn.

Delta:   Well, I guess I am also asking in this question ... do we want to, as esoteric astrologers, give very strong pride of place to 1/7th aspects that are in critical degrees from zero cardinal?

Alpha:   How often does it happen?

Beta:   Critical degrees I have never looked at but I always use bi-septiles and tri-septiles.

Delta:  No, it is not rare.  But, in other words, are we going to say this is of a little bit of importance, somewhat important, very important, overwhelmingly important?  That is the question I am bringing up.

Alpha:   I don’t have enough charts to refer to.

Beta:   Well this is fascinating actually to see this particular line up.  Because if you have a line of these particular planets in a situation like Bailey then it becomes very clear how significant the septile is. … The same happens with the heliocosims that I use.  You just have to apply them to every chart you get.

Alpha:   Suppose we said yes to that question.  What would we begin to do?

Delta:   Well, one of the things we might begin to do is say, it is very interesting that she has just Saturn and Jupiter overhead; that is of course important, and Mars rising.  But, you would also want to heavily weight (perhaps I mean I am stuffing words in people’s mouths, I don’t know if I would even say this myself), perhaps instead of looking at trines and squares, and so forth, we should give pride of place to 1/7th?

Beta:   It is a higher harmonics.

Alpha:   Do we ...  Now wait a second.  The way to discover this is to look at the life and see specifically the important things that emerged in the life and how they correlate with those things to which we are giving pride of place, or to those things which we are maybe ignoring.  See, basically, to study this kind of thing you have got to know what those septiles meant in her life.  And whether that justifies giving pride of place to them, from the empirical approach.

Delta:   Well, lets take Venus and the Moon, bi-septile.  The moon was in Libra which is exoterically ruled by Venus, and Venus is the esoteric ruler of Gemini.  So, in other words, they have some strong links there.   What happened in her social life? She got more support in general from women than from men?  Perhaps unusually loving women?

Alpha:   We might say that.  But is that at all esoteric?  I mean does it has to do with her life of consciousness?

Delta:   That is true.  It is a good point.  I am throwing this up; it maybe a very silly point. 

Alpha:   Well it is a thought. … You see, what will a septile actually tell us?  What should a septile tell us esoterically? 

Delta:   I think it is a change of one form into another.  It says you get to the uppermost or vital-most plane, in seven planes, and you switch into another form or another dimension.  And it is also the only number from one through ten that doesn’t divide rationally, or evenly, into 360, so, I see it as a change of form. …

Beta:   ... traditional astrology says septiles are related to fate or destiny.  I think they mean you have a structure.  What Blavatsky said was basically the way the entire universe is structured on sevens; it is a cybernetic number which is an organising number so if you have septiles it means an organisation is in place to move.

Alpha:   What do you mean an organisation?

Beta:   An organised situation or, something instrumental, the planets involved and the vehicles involved are organised and ready to go.

Alpha:   That sounds so different from irrational; very different from irrational number.

Delta:   Irrational just means it doesn’t divide ...

Alpha:   What I mean to say is that the symbolism of an irrational number is that it doesn’t quite fit into form in a neat way.

Beta:   But it gives you flexibility in handling form, perhaps, from a higher ...

Alpha:   We have to know the meaning of a septile if we are going to say it is really significant in the life of initiates and disciples.

Delta:   Same direction ... I often times think of being associated with septiles.

Alpha:   OK.   Because what is interesting here is ... you’ve got a bunch of combinations here.  You can read Venus in combination with the Moon.  You could read Saturn in combination with Mars.  Saturn in combination with Venus.  Saturn in combination with the Moon.  There are all in the septile connection, aren’t they.  So you could read a bunch of different things.  Now, whatever that moon in Libra meant or collaborates is one thing (with the DK, OK?)  But from a negative point of view, perhaps, let’s read it like this: her higher antahkaranic work, which signified partnership with the solar element, transformed her need for outer Libran partnership. …

Delta:   Partnership with the  higher self.

Alpha:   Exactly.  If one wants to look at how Venus could influence the Moon and how Venus represents a higher aspect of that.  Venus has to transform the Moon that is a major transformational pair. 

Alpha:   Yes ... and from another point of view Saturn-Mars.  You know you could read that in a higher way as well, could you not? … There are a lot of ways to do it, but certainly the mind over the emotions is one thing.  It is certainly God’s plan on a manasic level over the individual rebellious personality.  It is the throat centre over the solar plexus centre.  So it is a transformational thing, right?

Delta:   Could we say, if we interpret the Moon as ruling the past that she had, past, very powerful connections with Saturn, Venus and Mars, whatever that would mean, and that was going to be changed radically this lifetime, from that?

Alpha:   Yeah.  Well there is a real elevation of the chakras going on here.  What strikes me is that Mars-Moon are what a person like herself have to overcome. … Which is first ray, see, that Mars on the ascendant, in a first ray sign cannot be read only as Solar Plexus.  See this is a case when the other rays of a planet have got to be read too.  This could make a tremendously assertive person, couldn’t it?  Willful.  Willful. 

Gamma:   And you have put the first rays of the soul of Mars, or what?

Alpha:   Well, the first ray is involved because Mars is the school for warriors and destroyers and all that red, so first ray is definitely involved there.  So, in a certain sense the fact that she has a first ray personality, there you  have some first ray planets connected, you have Mars on the ascendant in a first ray sign, yeah a first ray sign, then you have also a Saturn septile, and Saturn has first ray in it too.  See, so you want planets associated with the personality ray don’t you? We have only done the soul so far. …

Delta:   Could we say there is a conflict between her personality and the soul if we say Neptune is part of  her soul ray, right there, and Neptune square Mars on the Ascendant. 

Alpha:   Yeah.

Gamma:   You know there is something which is bothering me.  Is that when I look also at initiates and people especially when the Tibetan gives the rays of the personality and the rays of soul, and when you look at the signs which he has assigned to them, you see they are often reversed …

Alpha:   Well they don’t even correlate necessarily do they? 

Gamma:   They certainly look sometimes they are reversed.

Alpha:   So it must be independent systems.

Delta:   I think the ascendant is like the subray of the soul this incarnation; the subray you should be working on.  Or it might be the same ray as the your soul.

Alpha:   It might be, but what ever it is, it is an incarnational direction for the soul’s expression. 

I tell you what is really hard about astrology is there is so many factors and what you’re trying to go in there with is with the first ray, you are trying to cut everything away but the essence of the matter.  But, unfortunately, astrology is so sticky and so subtle that when you try to only go for the essence you may end up lopping off some really significant data about the person. 

Delta:   Yeah.  I agree.   But, in other words, it would be nice if you could come up with a story rule. In other words, in traditional astrology I would say just look at the fact she has Mars on the ascendant and Jupiter-Saturn on the Midheaven.  I wouldn’t even look at the rest of the chart at first.  … This would show up as someone with great action that would have a profound social effect.  Of course, then I’d look at the sun in Gemini.  You know it would be through communication and social abilities and intellect and stuff like that.

Alpha:   See, what you could do, you are sitting there with Alice Bailey, and you are understanding how some of her chakras work and some of her life is working.  You could kind of go into the chart on the basis of that and then look at the pertinent planets that signal the way she is working.

Delta:   Do you think it would be worthwhile to discuss the thing you’ve  mentioned before.  Maybe we could try to come up with what planets and signs we’d associate with each chakra in general.

Alpha:   Oh, it could be done.  But I want to indicate also that this business about the fusion of her soul and personality is also given by the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction.  It is a higher way of interpreting it.  Because Jupiter always represents the soul.  See, what you have up there is a second ray soul and a first ray personality in the person of Jupiter and Saturn.

Delta:   What about the idea that I am trying to get back to a methodology. … This is great though.  I am more fifth ray; the discussion is being more fourth ray.  That is good because it is creating a juxtaposition.   But, if we say that Jupiter is the same as her soul ray and/or Neptune, there is a certain strong first ray component to Aries always. … And there is a certain strong esoteric component of the first ray with Taurus (from Vulcan).  … So, in other words, her soul ruler, you say Jupiter and Neptune, well I’d like to be a big fifth ray, just lob of Neptune altogether.

Alpha:   I would ... because Neptune in Taurus is far too enduring an influence; it lasts fourteen years.

Delta:   But I’m merely doing it from the point of view of simplifying, so somebody could just say look at one thing: your soul ray is two, its Jupiter; your soul ray is one, its Pluto.

Alpha:   But maybe that can’t be done.

Beta:   That to me is impossible.

Delta:   I know.  That is why this conversation is great.  You guys are being more fourth ray about it.

Alpha:   Well, what we are doing? We are being contextual, and we are seeing the way things are tied to each other.  And if we try to be Draconian, in the Capricornian sense, we may put this on a procrustian bed, and miss the individuality of the person.

Delta:   Oh, I agree.  There is no way this could ever be reduced to simple rules, but I think it would be good if we could start with some initial building blocks. So anyway we say Saturn rules her soul and it is in Aries that is going to have first ray overtones to her soul.

Alpha:   ... the wisdom side.

Delta:   Yeah.  Whereas if Jupiter rules her soul, and it’s Gemini maybe that would be second Ray overtones.  ... or perhaps fifth ray if you look at Venus, or Jupiter rules the soul, Jupiter in Libra, then maybe there would be third ray overtones. 

Alpha:   Sure, and the question is, for this particular incarnation, or in general? Because the undertones, or what ever it is, that you want for the soul are going to be there all the time.  For instance, her soul is either going to be on the wisdom line, or the love-love line, or the manasic line.  So the question is, that is going to change every life – she is not always going to be born with Jupiter in Aries.

Delta:   Exactly, so in other words, Jupiter would always be a strong connection with her soul, as a second ray soul, and if it is in Aries maybe she is working on the first subray aspect of the soul.  If it is in Libra maybe she is working on the third subray.

Alpha:   OK.   If the subrays of the soul change that fast, and frankly I think you are looking at a lower level influence here; I think the subray of the soul pretty well stays what it is for a long time.  And then a lot of incarnations pass and you get to kind or work on a related subray and it is not ‘the’ subray.

Beta:   How about in the later initiations … doesn’t it speed up?

Alpha:   Yeah.  Well, look, a person is oriented towards the wisdom line forever, they are on the first subray of the second ray soul, and can you tell me that you think that their soul indicator is always going to be in a sign that is first subray?

Delta:   I couldn’t say that.  I have no idea.

Alpha:   That seems to be a more permanent thing.

Delta:   Well maybe initially, Jupiter for the second ray soul, but also for a person’s soul you should look at the ascendant.

Alpha:   That will not tell you a ray, that will only tell you the possibility of what the person can use to be a success in this particular incarnation.

Delta:   That will tell you a ray in the sense that Leo is associated with the fifth ray and the rulers of Leo are associated with the Sun, the second ray, Neptune, the sixth ray.

Alpha:   OK.   But it will only be good for an incarnation.  … So basically, what you see are some things that last all the time and other things that change.  And the thing is, does the horoscope reflect the things that last, or does it tend to reflect the things that change?

Delta:   ... depends on what things change …

Alpha:   I think so too.  And I think ... with the signs and the house position, that soul and personality rulers are all part of the ephemeral way the soul can apply itself in a particular incarnation, but they don’t necessarily represent part of the permanent structure.  Like the permanent subray for quite a few incarnations of the soul, that can last a long time.

                OK.   Why don’t we try to summarise what we have done, right here, from your point of view, what have we tried to do and what have we done?

Delta:   Well, ultimately I agree there are a lot of factors to look at for anything, it can’t be pigeon holed, but for the sake of sanity and for the sake of giving people initially building blocks, I think it is worth while trying to pigeon hole it. 

Alpha:   What does DK mean by the fact that the new astrology is the intuitive astrology.  What is the implications of this?

Delta:   I think the implications of that deal with what the chakras are associated with, and what rays you have as a soul, and what chakras you are working on through that soul, and what the rulerships of those chakras are.

Gamma:   I would add to that an integral part is mainly where a person is.  That is a very important piece of information about a person.

Alpha:   Well wouldn’t you say that is just the first piece.

Beta:   Well, intuition is only as good as it has something to interact with, and the more diverse the field or the span (such as the methodologies can give you), the more the intuition can draw or picture out, or draw the essentials out.

Alpha:   OK, we are dealing with fifth ray—fourth ray; buddhi-manas here.

Delta:   And then we also had a discussion as to how much pride of place we should give septile aspects, because in traditional astrology and even Esoteric Astrology it is not mentioned, although Blavatsky does mention it in the Secret Doctrine.  That is how initiates would divide the cycles into sevens. 

Alpha:   I think that if you give students a range of rulerships of the chakras, both planetary and zodiacal, and you tell them approximately when those rulers are going to kick in and why, you would be giving them a range to choose from.  See, I think that you can go chakra by chakra and you can find out which planets and which signs condition that chakra more or less when and why.  And I think it is a lot to learn but a competent astrologer would have to have that array before them so the wouldn’t just have to say one thing, but say, ‘no there are three things that are possible here, but this one looks most germane at this point in your life.’

Delta:   So this isn’t complete, but I made this up, sorry I didn’t make more copies.  Something like that ...it just lists the chakras and then at the very top it shows the words ... What is good about doing it by hand it is real; these are the normal order of chakras.  You really can see in big clear roman numerals. … That was just a rough draft that I made ...

Beta:   In some cases she gives planets and mock rays; in other cases rays and mock planets.

Alpha:   But, there are three things that have to apply: rays, planets, and signs.  And maybe it is not fair to a student of astrology to say, we can make it fairly easy for you, just look at this. 

Beta:   Right. Particularly when it comes to chakras I would say ‘suggest’.  Let the students do their work.

Gamma:  You know that is the best I could do  ... here ...

Alpha:   Gamma’s got one here too.  Ray, average ray, head, one.  … the ray for a disciple ... Ray for initiate, one.  And then you can justify all this, right? … Planets, the average, planet for the disciple, Vulcan and Jupiter?  And you can justify all this?  For the head centre, Vulcan and Jupiter.

Gamma:   There is a reference for this.

Beta:   Oh yeah.  I definitely say Jupiter for the head centre.  No question.

Alpha:   Now what is the question that is really emerging here?

Delta:   I would like to back pedal a step ... for example, if we’re looking at a third ray rulership, that what we look for is Saturn. We would not look for Libra. 

Alpha:   Third ray rulership of what?

Delta:   Whatever chakra was ruled by the third ray.  We were saying a planet corresponds with the third ray, not a sign.  The planet Saturn, not the sign Libra, or if we look at the fourth ray we’re saying the planet Mercury applies ... Mercury and the Moon, and not the sign Scorpio, for example. … actually the repetitive assumption I would like to work towards ...

Alpha:   You would like to work toward that except ... what about our friend Taurus in relation to the brow centre?  Wouldn’t you say that ...

Delta:   I’m just simply saying ... look, Gamma’s chart has eliminated the sign, which I like, because I want to pigeon hole things.

Alpha:   I know, you admit that is what you like.  The question is ...

Beta:   The important point in all of this, and it is my bias, but the human constitution is absolutely crucial.  It is crucial to understand that incredible detail.  Once doing the astrological chart, then you can apply. I feel, especially with chakras, it is best to let people do their own compilations and let them apply it in their own way.  Among a group like this it is fine to compile our material, I think.  But, for safety, with the chakras, I would suggest that, outside working groups like this, people are just left to their own devices.  But, it you concentrate on the constitution, it creates a scaffolding on which people can hang all the esoteric keys, or add all the material that actually would ...

Delta:   Oh ... the constitution and the causal body ...

Beta:   The details of the antahkarana, the details of the mental, the different petals of the mental nature.

Delta:   So how would we begin speaking with somebody about his esoteric astrology, would we start off by discussing the constitution and not so much the astrological ... ?

Beta:   Well, in almost every case, I find, there are one or two points that I have to make, sort of pedagogically, in terms of human constitution, with any client.  I try to keep it to the minimum because I am not ...

Delta:   I agree, and, again, the problem I have been trying to bring up is, you look at the regular horoscope with the twelve signs and houses. That doesn’t discuss the constitution of man.  I agree with you, we should bring that in immediately, or as immediately as we can.  In other words, there needs to be a complete shift away from the signs and houses cause it is so easy for people to fall into the same old ruts with these.

Beta:   Because then everything is substantial from interpretation that is assumed, or derivative, and it is not live ... it doesn’t come from ...

Alpha:   Well, OK.  We are at nine o’clock now and we have done quite a bit of work today along a wide range of subjects. 

Gamma:   And we really just only followed the agenda.

Alpha:   Laughter. 

Beta:   Oh goodness.

Alpha:   Writing of agendas is the most useless task. Well now, we haven’t really reached question two yet.  But that is all right … it will all come together, really.

Tomorrow ... there are a lot of things to discuss, and I suppose that the conversation will take its own direction ... but it seems to me that we need to discuss the entities.  Who is in the game and what do they mean to each other?  Maybe without getting over technical about all their subdivisions which is also an interesting study.  But, who are they?  Where are they located?  And what is the hierarchy of them? 

Then we need, perhaps, to discuss their inter-relationships.  And of course that is the same thing as discussing the inter-relationship of the chakras.  It is a bit like studying the science of triangles.  See, in an interesting way, entities can be related in pairs, in triplicities, in quadruplicities, and then it starts to get more difficult.  They can be related in five pointed stars, they can be related in six pointed stars, and after that it gets really difficult, until you get to the number twelve, and so forth.  But, if we know who the entities are and how they can be related to each other on their own level and on other levels then we, maybe, are going to throw some fresh light on the inter-relations of the parts of the human being.  Because ‘as above so below’. 

So that is one thing we can do.  And that could lead to a quite extended discussion.  We have been fairly abstract today in some ways.  And we have attempted to be a little more concrete.  And a few times we have actually ventured into the human being, in terms of the causal body, initiation, the unfoldment of the petals ...for human beings.  We have done that.  Tonight we have also been human, attempted to be human, so we have had a mix.  Any other things that comes to your mind for tomorrow?

Gamma:   It is pretty loaded already.

Delta:   I would like to discuss some of the major triangles that are listed in Esoteric Astrology, one or two of them, and what levels they operate on and what it means to invoke them and how we invoke them.  Also I would like to, if we get a chance, to list the signs that rule the five planes we are on.   And I would like for a few moments to discuss whether ...

Alpha:   ... So, basically what we are dealing with there is the relationship part of the entities … if we can spend some time defining entities and locations, then get into relationships, I think we are in pretty good shape.

                As I leave this particular discussion I am left with a sense of the incredible complexity of what is going on in a  human being and how the mind has somehow to be able to apprehend it all at once and factor out with intuition the salient factor of the moment.  It seems like it is a Mercurial function, a higher Mercurial function to be able to grasp a pattern, and saying ‘out of this pattern this is what emerges’.  Whereas, another time I might grasp the pattern and something else might emerge.  And that is what I think the intuitional astrology, on one level, means.

Delta:   I was intentionally trying to bring up something that I think needs to be addressed and is unusually difficult.  And I agree with you that, ultimately, it will be intuitional, in fact it means reduced to a simple methodology.

Alpha:   Well, it would be nice for people to be able to apprehend it that way but ...

Beta:   Methodologies are so useful and I like to get into individual metrologies, or one methodology is covered, but when I focus on them in a group I get a bit frustrated because the next thing I want to do is immediately hierarchicalize all the methodologies or all the techniques so we can somehow set up a methodological tree or tree of logic or some type of interactive assessment device.

Alpha:   Um-hmm, I think the final word on this should be OM. … Well, we are going to stop, but the point is we really ought to have the right kind of closure. So why don’t we do ... “May the power of the one life ...”  Round it all off. 

(end of day one)

Day Two Begins

Alpha:   Today is the 23 of May.  We are ahead of schedule.  It is only 8:49 and we are beginning by addressing today the first two questions on page 2, and the questions would be of this nature:

·       What kind of entities should we consider as inhabiting the various planes in our map?  At first let us just name them as they come to mind.  We should consult at least page 844, page 533-534, page 566 of Cosmic Fire, and any other tabulations which lists important entities.  If they have alternative names, let us state what they are and why these names are appropriate (that is if they have alternative important names, because The Divine Plan probably gives thirty different names for the Agnishvattas, so we don’t necessarily need to do all of that.   

... and then that would be followed by this question:

·       Let us, for heuristic purposes, create a hierarchy of entities justifying why any should be higher or lower than another by stating its function.  Such beings as Kumaras (planetary and systemic), Buddha’s of Activity (three kinds), Planetary Logoi, Solar Logoi, Plane Lords, Lipika Lords, Lords of Karma,  Constellation Lords, whatever, etc.  Let us also seek to come to some understanding of the scope of expression of the various entities.  In general, through what kind of vehicles do they manifest?  In doing this let us also attempt to understand somewhat the function of the members of the army of the voice.  Though completeness is impossible, let us attempt to place a number of them on the map.

Epsilon:  Maybe we should have a map first.

Alpha:   Well, we do.  We had a map yesterday.  So I suggest that the map on page 344, or are there any others that show all of the cosmic planes and/or what Beta was calling the prakritic planes?  And I suggest that we also use a blackboard.  Would that be possible?  Who would like to volunteer to write down the names of the entities as we just throw them in no particular order?  We can  hierarchicalize them when we finish.  If we attempt to hierarchicalize and generate the names, then we have a problem, or, at least I have a problem with my, you know, pea brain, as Epsilon would say.

Beta:   We could just count them off from these page numbers too.

Alpha:   We can, so lets do that.  Lets begin on page 533. Might as well, it is a good place to start.  … Are you happy to do the board Delta?

Delta:   I’ll do it.

Alpha:   Oh, you’re not happy to do it.  I am happy.

Delta:   OK. 

Alpha:   If I am happy you would be happy.

Delta:   Yes.

Alpha:   OK.   I am happy.  Listen when it comes to listing entities I find fewer things of more pleasure. 

Delta:   Where is the eraser ... in case any of them go into pralaya? 

Alpha:   … OK, the first one’s we put done are the Delta’s, the Beta’s, the Epsilon’s, … OK, are we ready?   Are we happy yet?  Where is the eraser?

Beta:   We don’t need Solar Logos, right?

Alpha:   Are you kidding.  We do need Solar Logos.  … We are studying the great science of relations here. 

Delta:   Solar Logos ...

Alpha:   Three major rays or Lords of Aspect.  Can we just call them Lords of Aspect?

Beta:   ... umm, why not?  Or, Ray Lords.

Alpha:   Yeah, but there are three.  Well whatever this thing is, three lords of aspect, because the question is are they the same as the seven Heavenly Men? … Are the seven ray lords the seven Heavenly Men?

Delta:   No. 

Beta:   Yes, in a sense. 

Delta:   ... (inaudible) represent them in the solar system, but they are not the Ray Lords.

Alpha:   OK.   Well we are off to a good start.  That is the idea.  Let’s call them the seven Heavenly Men.  However, lets also put down Ray Lords ... in general. … 49 Regents.  Then, seven Lords of Globes in every chain.  So what will we call these ... Lords of Globes?

Delta:   How about Buddha’s of Activity?

Alpha:   OK. We will put them too.

Delta:   Are they the same?

Alpha:   Ah.  ... not necessarily.  Or, we don’t know yet. 

Delta:   ... speak for yourself.

Alpha:   OK … Buddha’s of Activity ..... 

(end of side 5A)  

Side two of tape number five. 

Ok … 49 Root Manus … And what about Seed Manus.  How many Seed Manus, how many Root Manus.  Well, I put these down, 49 root Manus and then seed Manus.  I think we can only go so far here.  Seventy-seven embodier’s of form, a group of Solar Lords who are concerned with form building working primarily on first ray.  This is probably the only hint we have of what these beings are …

See, actually this is all right here on page 533.  So all we are doing is getting it up on  the board.  Now, lets put down Avatars, let’s put down Lords of the Third Kingdom. …

 (tape paused) … [admin discussion of how to proceed has been deleted, although the original is amusing.]

Alpha:   You know what we should actually do.  Let us just simply read these.  Let’s make the map and then lets read them.  Ok?  … if we make the map, and then we go through the different kinds and we just try to put them on a map. I am concerned though about trying to put them on the map because controversy is going to rise as to where they are.  …

Gamma:   … First, I have to define what kind of entity.  Because it doesn’t seem to be clear if this is the entity, what aspect of the entity, is it the body, is it the soul ... ?

Alpha:   That is the secondary step ... First you put them down and then you decide whether they are bodies, souls, monads or reflections.  That is the science of relations.  First you have to have the names.

Beta:   They also do have multiple locations for other reasons.

Alpha:   That is the problem.

Beta:   The map can be used either for a Solar Logos or a Planetary Logos.  So in a way we should have two maps.

Alpha:   OK.   But, first, lets follow through exactly as I planned.  OK, some people look on the other sheets.  What are the other pages I gave  you?

Beta:   Well, there are Manasadevas, there are sons of Fohat, and brothers of Fohat. 

Alpha:   Lets just put them down.  And then we are going to discuss them before we put them on the map.

Beta:   Deva Raja Lords ...

Epsilon:   Solar entities and Solar Logos ... are they the same? … he says eight groups of solar entities.

Alpha:   No they are not the same.

Beta:   Sons and brothers of Fohat? 

Alpha:   Ok, sons of Fohat and brothers of  Fohat, are they different?

Beta:   I have a question about that.  Yeah, I think they are in a sense, they can be made different there.

Alpha:   How many more blackboards do you have?  We have another one over here.  Let’s get this too ...

(noise ensues)

Alpha:   OK.  blackboard in place, let’s continue.  Pisces energy is very good for synthesis so maybe we can just sort of wrap up: for ten or twenty or twenty-five years we have been talking about all these entities and reading all about them ...

Delta:   _______ Dhyanis

Alpha:   OK, and Dhyani Buddhas … the major ones is what we need...

Beta:   Manus.

Alpha:   We have Root Manus and Seed Manus, a number of varieties.  We have Heavenly Men.  We have seven Spirits before the Throne.  And seven Spirits of Darkness.

Beta:   We have Planetary Spirits and Spirits before the Throne.  Two.

Alpha:   OK.  

Beta:   And then there is Spirit of the Planet.

Beta:   Planetary entity.

Beta:   Divine Manasaputras. 

Alpha:   ... there are Divine Manasaputras and there are Manasaputras. … So there is a difference and there is … there is Divine Kumaras and there is Kumaras.  We are not really getting into all the elementals and all the rest of it yet.  Actually, what I want you to do .....

Delta:   How about the Silent Watcher?

Alpha:   Yeah. OK.   Well, and what about avatars .... What about the  Spirit of Peace  ....where would such a being go?

Beta:   Avatars.

Alpha:   ... under Avatars do you think?  Avatars are of three or four varieties.  So we will talk about Avatars.  He has a whole section on Avatars. 

Epsilon:   Do you want the Nirmanakayas.  

Delta:  Dharmakayas.

Delta:   Sambhogakaya.

Beta:   But that is more Blavatsky, right? … Bailey doesn’t mention Dharmakakya  or Sambhogakaya too often. 

Alpha:   No.  But, you know we don’t want to get too hung up on it, let’s just take it ...

Alpha:   Well, sure … We have the Raja Lords of the Planes, the Lesser Heavenly Man (that is too obscure). ... Good.  OK.   Now what is on 844.  Anything that we need?

Beta:   Well you don’t have the Lipika’s ...

Delta:   Did we put down Solar Lives?

Alpha:   OK, what about the Kingdoms, you know, we have the Solar Kingdom, the Planetary Kingdom, the fifth Kingdom.  Are these (inaudible) lives?

Beta:   Yeah ... the Sixth and Seventh Kingdoms

Alpha:   These are the Ray Lords, Kshiti, Varuna, these are the Plane Lords. 

Beta:   Right.  Deva Raja Lords.  Yeah, it is under Manasadevas. 

Alpha:   They are not Manasadevas.  … OK, have we got 844  ... anybody looking at that?

Gamma:   You said 844?

Alpha:   Yeah.  We need to consult various places ...

Epsilon:   Solar Pitris … Angels and Lords. 

Alpha:   OK, if there are distinctions.  See, my hope is that once we get the idea of the major players we can determine their relationships and their relationships to man. 

Epsilon:   We don’t have the Lunar Pitris.

Alpha:   Well, we can put them in.  But, are we going to say Lunar Pitris, Angels and Lords.  Would you also divide them in that way?

Beta:   Oh yeah. 

Alpha:   That would be interesting.

Beta:   Because they are used .....those terms are used in different situations.

Delta:   Barishads [?] … 

Alpha:   … And now we also do not have the Creative Hierarchies.  Now some of these of course are members of Creative Hierarchies … 

Epsilon:   We have the builders, the Lesser Builders ...

Alpha:   The Lesser Builders could be, well, those are the elementals, right?  ... I think we need, in general the Creative Hierarchies and, how far can we go with Creative Hierarchies?  We are only given twelve, correct? 

Alpha:   Seven and five.

Gamma:   Yes ... seven and five ... the liberated kumaras.

Alpha:   OK.   Well then we are going to have to see what is the connection here between the kumaras and the hierarchies. 

                We also should have constellational Lords, the Lords of the greater centres, for instance, the Lord of the aggregation that we call the Pleiades … and so forth. … also we need a cosmic ... We need the omnibus, the varieties of onnibuses.  What about OAWNMBS?  We need that in at least three varieties, on the level of constellation, on the level of the being that includes seven constellations, and on the level of the galaxy.  There is a statement that our Solar Logos is an atom in the OAWNMBS.  He can’t be a centre and an atom in the same OAWNMBS.  So that is probably as far as we should go upward.

                Then the Secret Doctrine … what about the laws and the Ah-hi. 

Beta:   The Ah-hi might be useful.  …

Delta:   And Adi Buddhas

Alpha:   Adi Buddhas, well, maybe Buddhas is sort of a generic term.  (over here) I’ll put just Buddhas. 

Beta:   Do we need Blavatsky?  I mean ...that is going to be hundreds more ...

Alpha:  Well, we don’t need all of the different cultural terminology, just the main entity, OK, what else?  Is there another page that I suggested or have we gotten it all?   … we should put down the atom …

Gamma:    How about man, also.

Alpha:   Man.  Did we forget man?  Ooops!  We forgot man ... ! So, what have we got here?  I mean, are these the names of the entities with which we most often deal?

Beta:   Well there is a Grand Heavenly Man, too.

Delta:   Well aren’t the Manasadevas the same as man?

Alpha:   Well, this is the kind of question we are going to ask ourselves.  Now some of you are experts in names, the Conferrer of Names.  Any others that we may need here?  You know, this big chart, 534 – I’m not sure that we need all of this.  Oh, we have forgotten the whole deva evolution, well not all of it but … what about the violet devas, the Agnichaitans, the Agnisuryans ...

Beta:   They are also under the Deva Lords ....

Alpha:   They come under Deva Lords but they are subdivisions.  … So, Agnishvattas, Agnisuryans, and Agnichaitans. Let’s just say elementals: fairies, gnomes, sylphs, salamanders – just elementals.

See, the point is that every being in cosmos is composite, like a human being is composite.  So here we were talking about how this is relevant to a  human being. Well, what hierarchies make up the human being?   That is what we have to figure out.   I mean I have never myself, personally done a round-up of all entities, like corralling all the steers. 

Beta:   I have made an attempt quite a few times.

Alpha:   Have you made an attempt along this line?

Beta:   Um-hmm

Alpha:   So what are we leaving out?

Beta:   Well, this is enough to deal with … unless we go into Blavatsky, and that is just too painful …

Alpha:   That is true that Blavatsky is problematic.   There are so many different names for different …

Beta:   Yeah.  And I want to correlate them with Bailey so there is a common terminology.

Alpha:   Un-ha, so, let’s think now. We have ten dimensions of cosmos.

Delta:   How about Sephiroth.

Alpha:   Oh.  Sephiroth ... And there is a whole bunch of the ‘yuckies’ who, even though we are holding this in ‘Yucka”  (This is ‘Yucka-hall’), we don’t need to get into the [sounds likeà] clipoff you know, which are all the lower demons, and rock [sounds likeà] chasas, and things of that nature.

Delta:   How about Gandarvas?

Alpha:  Well, that’s it you see.  Don’t forget we’ve 33 [sounds likeà] crura we have got to go through here.

Beta:   OK.   Yeah.  They are associated with the prana’s at a certain level. …

Alpha:   ... the [sounds likeà] Gandarvas ...?

Delta:   ... and also in terms of astrology, too, I think.

(Multiple voices)

Alpha:   OK.   Now Gosh! There is a lot going on.  There is a lot of entities in cosmos, really.

Delta:   We become the cosmic sociologists ....!

Alpha:   Oh ... the Kama Cosmics? OK, are we overwhelmed yet?  This shouldn’t be too bad, of course every one of these sort of breaks down into quite a few, don’t they?  OK, just for the sake of simplicity ... (laughter) we won’t add any more right now.  

Now, let’s solicit each other’s advice on this matter.  What kind of planar map shall we draw in order to best place these beings.  Or, would you prefer to give some brief, encapsulated definitions of the various entities (without going into all the complexifications), and then place them on the map?  Or, would you prefer to try to placing them on the map first before defining them?

Gamma:   You know I have a vague .... defining what an entity is...

Alpha:   OK.   Let’s do that … let’s define what an entity is...

Gamma:   ... because you have the consciousness and the body they use.  Is there any difference between the body they use and the place where they dwell?  Yeah.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Of course.  So let’s define an entity.  In this book I am writing at the moment I spent a number of  pages defining entity. 

[Funny part about defining ID deleted.]

Alpha:   OK.   ... No, but seriously.  What is an entity? 

Beta:   As far as I am concerned the entity is the subjective part, and its very much a generic term.  It has some specific qualifications.  I think it’s usually associated with astral in that it is the subjective side of the being that incarnates.  But, I would associate it with astral because it is almost always mentioned by Blavatsky and Bailey in context where you’re talking about a subjective entity incarnating through an exterior system.  This is very clear with the sun.  When she enumerates the three suns: the head or central spiritual sun, the heart of the sun, and the physical sun.  She adds another one between the physical and the heart of the sun which is the subjective sun.  And that is the entity aspect as far as I can tell.

Alpha:   Subjective sun ... might relate to the cosmic astral manifestation of the solar logos?

Beta:   ... astrally polarised … it is kama manasic, and entities always take on that kama manasic quality I think in our local universe.

Alpha:   So you are talking about use rather than the generic [?] meaning of the word. 

Beta:   Correct.

Gamma:   You are talking about the solar system now?

Beta:   Yeah.  Planetary, and solar system and humans, everything.  I think that it is used just basically as the subjective entity, no matter how advanced or little advanced, regardless of how much consciousness or how little is incarnating through a system.

Alpha:   The word ‘Being’ is sometime used.  The word Being, as I understand it, is sometimes used interchangeably with entity.  These great existences, great beings, these entities … there is a commonality between them regardless of life’s specific use.  Maybe the word being is used a bit on a higher level than entity, would you say?

Beta:   Yeah.  Definitely.

Alpha:   When I think, however, about entity I am using it in a totally generic manner, and in the sense of being.  And as every being, as I see it, is essentially a ray of the absolute, I ‘being’ would mean One of the differentiated rays of the absolute manifesting through a different vibratory frequency of prakriti, cosmically considered.  In other words, there is no difference, every being is identical.  ‘I’-dentical.  Every being is essentially identical.  What do you think?

Gamma:   I would take another tack and say a being, an entity, is an energy.

Alpha:   Well, what is an energy?

Gamma:   They are (inaudible) veiled (inaudible).

Alpha:   Is an identity an energy?

Epsilon:   ... a specified energy; a specific type of energy.

Beta:   Identity has much more to do with the core.  And being does too.  Entity usually can be totally unconscious.  An entity could be disembodied as well as embodied.  But it always has to have form to be differentiated.  … you have to be able to say that it is differentiated, or qualify its differentiation …

Alpha:   The differentiation has only to do with the variety of prakriti that corresponds to its consciousness.

Beta:   So you could use it, express it as a quality.

Delta:   So there is a link between the expression, the body of the expression, or the vibration of the expression, or the type of expression.  …

Beta:   They all have the three aspects: life, form and appearance.

Alpha:   And life is identical, that is the important thing.  The life is ‘I’-dentical.  There is not one shread of difference between the lives; its all monad in a way. 

Delta:   Even though its being silly, I didn’t mean it in a silly way, about the Id …  literally id.  Whatever the prefix ‘id’ means.

Alpha:   ID, I die.  ‘I’  into ‘form’.

Delta:   It is ‘id’ entity.

Beta:   So, Freud’s id.  The collective unconscious 

Delta:   Yeah … well we don’t have to define all these Freudian terms.

Beta:   Well ... from a Buddhist point of view it is important, in Theosophy I find people want to reach absolutes rather than ultimates, and relate ultimates with the relative.  Because in terms of identity, obviously something is preserved in cycles when things move out of cycles something is put into a laya state. … We don’t know, Blavatsky doesn’t  know how to qualify or discuss this, how to elucidate it.  It probably can’t be expressed in words, but identity seems to be the core of the life principle and identity is unique in every case  because of the infinitude of space and time and the manifestation.  If it is out of manifestation its either in a laya state, pre-manifestation, or it could be what theosophy calls a Parabrahman state.  But, if you say everything is absolutely the same, it is nothing at all.

Alpha:   It is nothing.

Beta:   Exactly.

Alpha:   But it is essentially true, from a first ray perspective. … From the Shiva perspective it is so, I mean Blavatsky’s labours her whole initial presentation to explain that that is so.  But that is not identity in the intra-universal sense; identity in the intra-universal sense is unique.

Beta:   But then again, these [Jungian] metaphors are still used for identifying Shiva and the nature of Shiva, by all the schools.  ... you know the yogi’s believe that ...

Alpha:   I am not sure I do, but we don’t have to hang out in the absoluteness. That is not the point.  But she does say that every being is essentially a ray of the absolute.  That is the core identity.  But I would say that any kind of identity that is occurring within universe is partial, intra-universal, qualitatively specific, and it is just a small representation of the core identity.  Yet it is the one we have to deal with.  See basically, don’t you have the one life moving through all dimensions of cosmos and differently identified depending upon the dimension through which it is moving?

Beta:   Um-hmm.  That is not the only qualification that is true though because you have the consciousness qualification and that is the identity.

Alpha:   Yeah.  But what I am trying to say is that the consciousness is dependent upon the dimension in which ...

Beta:   ... then you just go up another set of seven planes....

Alpha:   Yeah.  And on and on ... until it has to end … given what I would call the ‘finitude’ of universe. 

Beta:   I wonder it that exists ever ...

Alpha:   Well, I think the Law of Periodicity would be violated unless you had a finite universe.

Beta:   Periodicity is only within a system.

Gamma:   That is what he said.

Alpha:   What about the in breathing and the out breathing, and the absolute principle.  In other words, everything has to disappear into nothingness as HPB says, so that would violate it if you had an infinite universe.

Beta:   But it is only invisible or it becomes nothingness on the plane from which it dissolves.

Alpha:   OK.  Well this is the deep philosophical question, this is a big, big question, because actually what we are doing here is talking about the contrast between the Vedanta and Buddhist system.  Morya says, how shall we reconcile Vedanta and buddhism in one of his Slokas, he says, I see no problem between them.  You know and basically Buddhism is dealing with all of the vehicles and all of the modifications, and it is the world within universe, and Vedanta is trying to annihilate universe.  And the two, he says, go hand in hand.  And we are taking those two different positions right now.  But that is all right, but we don’t have to hang there; let’s just get ourselves right down into the universe. 

Gamma:   … We are just examining functions in our consciousness here because ... we are taking about life.

Alpha:   We are saying that life exists in all of them and we are saying that they are differentiated particularly because of their form and their consciousness ...

Epsilon:   And their function ...

Alpha:   Well, function is a function of form and consciousness, isn’t it?  In other words, function depends upon location, and upon relationship relative to other beings.

Beta:   Another qualification I put on entity … is that of sentience; I get that impression from her usage of entity as well ...

Alpha:   OK  And the question is there any point in cosmos where sentiency doesn’t exist?

Beta:   Right.  And is it different from consciousness?  Is it distinct?

Epsilon:   Sentiency is different from consciousness ...?

Beta:    Is it?  ... yeah.

Alpha:   Well, the point we have here, yesterday we began with the discussion of the planes and we went up to super cosmic planes, but … can we keep everything on the lowest of the supra-cosmic planes here, for the moment?

Beta:   Right.  I think we should start with planetary, then go up to the solar, because I think the solar will emerge out of this. …

Alpha:   Now, this is a mind boggling task.  And there is a whole lot within a person that resists doing it.  But, I think we should do it.  I think we should try to find one or two sentences without great elaboration to define what is on the board.  In other words, without going to a big discussion we should try to run down these things and say what are one or two sentences that would nail these beings down conceptually, as an initial statement, without going into the elaboration of them.

Gamma:   What is available in this thing here is that he defines those beings by the permanent atoms it uses.

Alpha:   Would you say he defines them by the permanent atoms, or he lists them according to the permanent atoms used.

Gamma:   He lists them.

Beta:   That’s as far as our seven solar planes go.  System planes.

Alpha:   Seven systemic planes. ... because really, obviously, the Solar Logos has permanent atoms but they are on another level. … whatever those permanent atoms ...  Oh ...

Beta:   ... that is a big interval ...

Alpha:   Oh, you know we forgot to put down Egoic groups, ashrams, things of that nature.

Gamma:   ... and triads ...

Alpha:   Because these are actually entities, or Beings, whatever.

Epsilon:   If we want to be a bit more complete, we could go through the Theosophical Glossary, it goes to the name, then we find quite a number of entities there.

Alpha:   Yeah.  We do.  But, I have never done this before, maybe Beta has, but in our discussion with our students and group members we are constantly discussing beings and their relationships to each other.  I have never seen all the beings that I discuss under my eye at the same time.

Beta:   I would say, looking at all these, that some of them form parts of the constitution of larger entities.  Some of these are more relevant to human entities, in the evolution of humanity in a large sense, in its position in this planetary constitution.  Others are more distinctly related to planetary constitution.  Others are more related to Solar constitution.  But they are always interpenetrating.

Alpha:   Right. … Yeah.  As a matter of fact that’s a little further down the list, that whole question of the nesting factor of entities.

Beta:   Right.  Another category, a way of nesting these, particularly through the three periodical vehicles.  Because within the planetary constitution some are going to be related to the monadic aspect, some to the egoic part and then some to the personality, or lower.

Alpha:   We need categories as to how to approach these.

Delta:   I think the first categories are those on the upward arc in evolution and those who are involution.  That would drop out the lunar lords, you know almost the whole thing is on the upward arc.

Alpha:   Most of it is on the upward arc.  Right over here ...

Delta:   I don’t think we should spend much time on the downward arc (unless we have time for it).

Alpha:   No.  The downward arc is significant to man in terms of the sixth and seventh creative hierarchies.   And even the fifth from that point of view.  As a matter of fact we really need to study the hierarchies, there is a tremendous obscurity about that in the minds of most. 

Delta:   I think that would be worthwhile but perhaps separate from this.  But then we are doing the upper arc.  We could have a major category of schemes, chains and globes, and the beings associated with those.

Beta:   That is much more daunting.  That is profoundly technical.  That could be done …

Delta:   Because not all these are occupied on the level of the full scheme, or chain or a globe.

Beta:   Right.  But the downward arc and upward arc, when we mention that we’re basically being anthropocentric because the lunar monads are involving as far as humans are concerned.  They have their own evolution.  And the same with the devas, they are an evolutionary group.

Alpha:   Yeah.  They are.

 [several speak] …

Beta:   I think that is why we left out the elementals to a certain extent.

Alpha:   Well we actually included them  ... there they are on the  board.

Beta:   Yeah.  There is almost nothing there on the downward arc that it says ...

Delta:   Specious species ...

Alpha:   OK.   Well what we have got to do is find a way to extract.  Let’s do what I said and see if it is as difficult as it is and as limited as it is, Can we can come up with one or two sentences without arguing over it that will say what these beings are.

Gamma:   ... stop the tape now and list their function.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Their function.

Beta:   That would be one by one?

Alpha:   Its one by one, or, you were looking at it globally, weren’t you?

Beta:   Yes, that is right.

Delta:   That is what I was stipulating ...

Alpha:   Yeah.  OK.   So let’s begin simply with a Solar Logos, from all we have read.  Next will be the  ...

Epsilon:   What did you say for Solar Logos?

Alpha:   We didn’t.  We went on ... just put down  ‘sigh’.  OK, so the Solar Logos is the informing life of a solar system ... but more?

Delta:   It depends on (inaudible) schemes ...

Alpha:   Yes.  Are all solar Logoi beings of the fourth order? No.  See, matter of fact one day we should discuss the meanings of order, fourth order, fifth order, second order and so forth.  A Solar Logos is a being in cosmos manifesting physically through a star and its attendant planets and psychically through ...

Delta:   ... one second, if you say manifesting through a star, are we implying there are seven dimensions of that star?

Alpha:   Well,  let’s see ... manifesting physically through a star ... and its attendant planets, and psychically ...

Beta:   ... through the subjective sun ... it is at least denoted by the subjective sun.

Alpha:   OK.   Ah ... what are the lunar vehicles of the Solar Logos?

Beta:   The astral ...  well it must be the animal nature, so to speak. I think it is depicted in the three levels of the mind and the two astral qualities, the five qualities that come through, that incarnate through seven pranas.

Alpha:   OK.   Well that is another ...

Beta:   You have the astral recorders.  Then you have the astral devas. 

Alpha:   OK.   And we are talking here on cosmic astral levels.

Beta:   Yeah.  Cosmic astral and cosmic mental, you have the three.

Alpha:   But suppose we were trying to be simple about this, we have in cosmos in the physical plane, certain kinds of visible structures …

Beta:  But then you talk about the Solar Logos’s astral nature ... 

Alpha:   We don’t want to get stuck on it.  The whole idea is just to consider the Solar Logos as a being.  Now we can call him the Grand Heavenly Man, or that could be called the personality aspect of the Solar Logos, but sometimes it seems there is an inexact usage and he is called the Grand Heavenly Man.

Beta:   I think of it as the soul …

Alpha:   I see.  I see.  … In other words, just as the Heavenly Man is considered the egoic aspect of the planetary logos, so the Grand Heavenly Man could be considered the egoic aspect of the Solar Logos. But can we nail it down?  …

Beta:   So the sons of Fohat would operate through schemes, the seven sons of Fohat could be associated with seven pranas on the systemic, just on the systemic plane. 

Delta:   Isn’t Fohat the third aspect?

Alpha:   Yeah.  It is.  I think we better  ...we better start...

Beta:   I am trying to be procedural.  I slipped.

Gamma:   I would like to know also if the planets are in ... necessarily in a manifestation of a solar logos?

Delta:   Well, they are chakras within it.

Gamma:   OK.   So, in  the definition, physically manifesting through our solar system, attended by ...

Alpha:   Yeah, and its attendant planets.

Beta:   So if we deem to talk about a solar logos you would probably talk about a planetary logos just to a certain extent in the sense of, what is the logos?  We have the three logoi in terms of the Solar Logos.  … The solar system is usually considered only the the third logos.

Alpha:   Yeah.  And sometimes (it is very interesting), he talks about going onto the cosmic plane, cosmic astral plane, and moving beyond the solar system.  This is a peculiar statement.  So the solar system seems to be confined to the cosmic physical plane.

Delta:   I don’t necessarily agree that it should be through only three logoi.  There could be seven, you know if you do the seven locas ...

Beta:   Oh no, of course, but this is within the context of one entity incarnating, one solar logos ... It incarnates through three,  and the Parabrahman through three logoi in a sense.

Alpha:   He says basically there is Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva aspect surrounding the Solar Logos.  And, by the way, what those entities are, three lords of aspect … we are almost getting into that.  OK, the point is let’s not go for elegance and perfection, let’s just go for rough understanding.

Beta:   Shall we say that a logos has to have seven principles or something corresponding to seven principles, something corresponding to the permanent atoms? ... egoic body?

Gamma:   (inaudible) principles, has ten principles.

Alpha:   Well, OK, that is interesting, but manifesting … you see principles have to do with consciousness particularly, don’t they?  So, it seems to me that the principles of a being have to do with consciousness and the permanent atoms and their out growths have to do with the form aspect.  So we could say, gee it is so hard to say, its just a being manifesting physically through a solar systems and its attendant planets, and psychically through  seven principles.  Are the planets themselves the principles of a solar logos, or the psychic natures of the planets, the principles?

Beta:   Yes.  But, more specifically, the kumaras probably ...

Alpha:   Well, we have got to wait until we define that. … and this is important.  You understand there is a tremendous resistance in the minds of most students against doing this, for the very reason that it is so horribly difficult, you know, to really get all this straight.

Beta:   It is potentially, painfully controversial. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  OK.   So anyway we are doing a pioneering thing even though the moon is still in Pisces.

Delta:   See, we are not going to focus on the dimensions, the solar system, what a solar logos operates in.

Alpha:   Not yet.  Right now we are just saying ... I think I can say, manifesting through three periodical vehicles, like all other atoms in cosmos. … And through seven psychic principles.

Gamma:   And what is psychic principles?

Alpha:   Well  by psychic we mean related to consciousness aspect.  See, and that is how you really distinguish ...

 

(end of tape 5)

Tape Six Begins

 

Alpha:  We are continuing our discussion of significant entities in cosmos and we are attempting to give forth necessarily inexact definitions of the nature and function of these entities before we attempt to hierarchicalise them and relate them. 

OK.   So now that we have polished off the Solar Logos ...

Beta:   We didn’t discuss the permanent … so we have the life aspect operating through periodical vehicles  ... psychic or consciousness.

Delta:   ... one permanent atom.

Alpha:   ... on the physical plane, but maybe ...

Beta:   ... the eternal now, the physical present for the Solar Logos is three solar systems, so its sense of time is radically different from ours.  And so the seven operate through the life aspect. … through the three periodical vehicles, through egoic consciousness, psychic aspect through the principles, and then through the form or appearance aspect, to … a number of permanent atoms.

Alpha:   We don’t know the number ...

Beta:   We don’t know the number of principles, right.

Alpha:   But you know, there seems to be an infinite [?] so that any entity which has three aspects, as all entities in cosmos must, might also have some form of correspondence to seven psychic principles.  And (although the permanent atoms would be variously placed), might be considered to have the standard number of permanent atoms, but but the location of them would be most interesting.  And that is one of the great variables.

Beta:   And for instance, we have the cosmic egoic lotus of seven tiers of seven petals each.

Alpha:   I thought it was seven tiers with three petals. … Maybe you can find a reference for me because I counted twenty-one on that.  But, not to verge off, but we are talking about the egoic lotus of our Solar Logos   And did he ever talk about the egoic lotus of the Sirian Sun?

Beta:   Uh.  No.

Delta:   … not one of our immediate problems ...

Alpha:   Well, for persons who think about it enough it could become an immediate problem!

Delta:   Yeah.

Beta:   Page 1161, the logoic solar angel.  Because I have been looking at this closely I’ll be obnoxious and just say, he doesn’t say Solar Lord, Logoic Solar Lord, or Logoic Solar Pitris, he says Solar Angel – which is to me the second aspect, although it can be the first, and the Pitris the third.  But, so he says:  “It is interesting here to note that as the human solar Angel is a unity, manifesting through three tiers of petals, the logoic correspondence is even more interesting, for that great cosmic Entity demonstrates on the cosmic mental plane as a triple flame working through seven tiers of petals, and it is the energy from these seven circles of energy which pulsates through the medium of any scheme.”

Alpha:   So he doesn’t say how many petals.

Beta:   He doesn’t say how many petals, at least not here.

Alpha:   I assume three per tier but that may be just an assumption.  Anyway that is where I got my number twenty-one.

Beta:   I was thinking because earth is a dual scheme it may have a dual jewel operating through five tiers of (inaudible) petals. 

Alpha:   OK, it it might, anyway, the interesting number is there.  So now we have done the Solar Logos. 

Gamma:   The whole thing is obscure, even to the highest (inaudible) because of ...

(laughter & many voices)

Alpha:   Listen, we are all in training for something you can be sure.  OK, so the three lords of aspect, this is considered to be in relation to the solar logos.

Gamma:   So, we have finished now the Solar Logos.

Alpha:   We have. Where is the large table of hierarchies. … page 1238.  OK.   This will be very useful to us because it shows the solar constitution and the parallels in the planetary constitution.  So we have just dealt with the Solar Logos (in a way which I hope will be forgiven), and now we are dealing with the three Lords of Aspect, which I judge from page 844 indicates the trinity.  Now, whether that trinity, which I interpret as Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and which I also wonder if each one of them manifests through three planets  (correlating this with the reference on page 99 or 100 or Esoteric Psychology).  For instance Saturn, Earth, Mars, something manifests through Saturn, Earth and Mars ...

Beta:   Is that on a lower level, though, because the seven rays have three rays of aspect below them? … Well the Solar Logos we know is nine fold in some respects.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Nine fold in some respects. 

Here, on page 99, Esoteric Psychology, Volume Two:  “There are, as has been stated elsewhere, seven sacred planets but ten planetary schemes, and in three cases, (those of the three major rays) three planets constitute the personality of each ray Life. Some esoteric thinkers believe that there are twelve planets to be considered in our solar system, and there is a basis for their conclusion.  The personality of this third ray Life functions through the following planets:

1.  The mental body expresses itself through the medium of the planet Saturn.
2.  The astral body expresses itself through the planet Mars.
3.  The physical body expresses itself through the planet Earth.

The potency of this Life is such that He requires three complete schemes-all three closely allied and interdependent-through which to express Himself. Uranus, Jupiter and Venus are similarly allied in order to manifest or express a great Life.”

Delta:   So the first ray then, because Uranus is the first ray.

Alpha:   Or is it a second ray planet?

Gamma:   It would be the second ray.

Delta:   That is what I thought all along but he says the three synthesising schemes, right?

Gamma:   No this is something else. 

Beta:   You have the have the same I have too.

Alpha:   Um hmm.  And then, does this leave Vulcan, Mercury and Pluto? Neptune, etc.  I see what you are saying, because Uranus is the ...

Delta:   ... synthesising scheme for the first ray, cause I thought it was second ray all along in terms of ...

Gamma:   No but the second ray currents, that energy comes from Sirius and goes through Pisces and Uranus. 

Alpha:   Oh, that is correct.  That is one way to tie it in.   Anyway, the point is it would be nice if we knew exactly which planets go through ... The personality of the third ray life functions thorough the following planets …

… Now here is a question.  On the chart on page 344 you notice that on top of the cosmic physical plane we have the three and the seven.  And comparing this with the chart on 1238, it says here three logoi focused on the sea of fire (the atomic subplane of the cosmic physical plane); then we have on 1238 a trinity.  Now is there a correspondence there between this trinity and these three logoi?

Beta:   To me, that is the three fold mental vehicles with the soul at its centre, which is three fold.  But its outer manifestation is through the mind.  It is the shrine of Buddhi through the causal mechanism.

(several voices)

Alpha:   OK.  Here is what I am trying to figure out.  There are three lords of aspect here.  And there are always a three and a seven associated with any entity.  There’s the major entity surrounded by a three and then eventually manifesting through a seven.  And what I am asking myself is whether Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are the great third ray entity, the great second ray entity, the great first ray entity.  And whether each one of them instead of manifesting through a single planet somehow manifests through three planets.

Beta:   They have to be because the solar causal body has three jewels. Also its eternal now is three solar systems.  And that corresponds to the monadic wheel for us.  As monads we live through three solar systems.

Alpha:   Right.  Or five, or six ...

Delta:   Well three is associated with consciousness. But from the consciousness aspect it would be correct, but maybe not from the physical matter aspect.

Gamma:   So what you think is that those three here are manifesting, each of them, by three planets?

Alpha:   That is right, but mostly we have Saturn, Uranus … with a planetary logoic intelligence through one planet, pure and simple.  And what I am looking at here is that there are three Lords of Aspect, each one of whom may require three planets to manifest and they are of the higher order of magnitude in our solar system than the normal planet.  And then what I was further asking is this trinity that surrounds the solar logos reflected in these three on the atomic subplane, or are these three simply the three synthesising planets and seven other planets, among whom the Earth and Mars and some others are listed.

Beta:   Well I think its twelve because if you assume as axiomatic that three is evolution in consciousness and seven is evolution in form, then for our solar system, of the second order, it is going through an evolution in consciousness, and we have both the evolution in consciousness which would be the threes (it could also be three three’s), and you would also have the other, because it is also going through a continuing evolution in form, of the three and the seven.

Delta:   This would make sense to me if you looked at the representatives too you could have the three synthesising planets, but also the nine planets there present through their representatives and that …

Alpha:   ....I am lost now.  You have the three synthesising planets ....

Beta:   These could be the three synthesising planets on the logoic plane, and they could be the nine planets, if there were the synthesising planets at the very centre then, you’d have representatives of the nine planets at least, if not some embodiment.

Alpha:   See, basically, what would happen is the nine planets we are talking about in relation to the three lords of aspect are listed in composite on both of the these first and second planes.  What I am trying to say is that the trinity is not a planet.  The three lords of aspect are not a planet.  They require three planets to manifest through.  And so basically what I am thinking is that somehow ... when I am looking at these three I don’t know whether I am looking at the trinity or at the three synthesising planets.  I am saying a synthesising planet is not the same as a Lord of Aspect.

Beta:   Oh yes, absolutely  Yes. 

Alpha:   You see why I am saying that?  … Both are solar but one is of a higher order.  In other words here is my analogy: A Buddha of Activity is not the same as a Chohan. 

Delta:   The Buddha of Activity is higher.

Alpha:   Yeah.  And, you see, if you look at 1238 you’ll see exactly why I made that analogy.  … You see, basically, we have a very nice system here which is ...

Beta:   Well we have nine Buddhas of Activity, nine Buddhas, three of will, three of love and three of activity.

Alpha:   Well.  Yeah, and we have nine Buddhas.  And we have more problems with that. 

Beta:   Yeah.  But the Buddhas of activity are nine fold and basically kumaras are seven fold and ...

Alpha:   OK. Now you have just distinguished between a Buddha of Activity and a Kumara.  Beta is very great at splitting entities. … We are going to get the Kumaras and the Buddha’s of Activity, but let’s ...

Beta:   And they are identical in some respects....

Alpha:   Yeah.  OK.   Well ...the main question is that it seems like the trinity is bigger than what is manifesting right here.  See this ...you ...I think you wisely put down Uranus, Neptune and Saturn as the three synthesising planets.  …

Beta:   Ah-ha.  They have to do with incarnation of one solar system.  But if it is causal it has to be triple, so then the nine fold aspect would come in, as the reflection in the physical of the causal …

Alpha:   OK.  Yeah.  The point is, does anybody think that the three triangles on the atomic level are the three synthesising planets.  Or does anybody think that the three triangles on the atomic level are the Trinity Beings and the three synthesising planets are in fact listed below on the monadic plane along with the other sacred planets?

Delta:   No, I think the former.  Not the latter.  … We are going through a synthesis in consciousness in this solar system whereas the previous solar system was more of a synthesis in form.  … So, currently, the synthesising planets would be on the three highest, whereas in the previous solar system there were three synthesising planets that would be part of the seven.

Beta:   Probably atmic level.  I think, actually, Bailey mentions that.

Alpha:   OK.   But, hold on ...just a second.  Every Heavenly Man … is working on the cosmic astral plane and is no where near yet to being able to master the cosmic mental plane.  There is no place, is there, where it says there is such a difference between the three synthesising planets which are listed as being sacred and the other sacred planets as to have those synthesising planets be equivalent to what the sun is doing.  Right?  In other words, the synthesising planets are closer to the other planetary logoi than they are to what the sun is doing. 

Beta:   And because they are involved in a specific incarnation rather than in the entity nature of the Solar Logos.

Alpha:   Right.  OK.   And another thing that is normally said is that the synthesising planets are among the sacred planets.  So now we have seven listed here on plane number two.  And the big question remains: Are the synthesising planets unitable with the other sacred planets?

Beta:   Well I think that is probably explained by the other chart Bailey has where Saturn is the only planet in common … the esoteric and exoteric Saturn. 

Alpha:   OK.   See, here is what I am saying also.  I seem to remember some charts in which the Solar Logos’s manifestation on our physical plane is atomic. Cosmic physical plane.  The Planetary Logoi’s manifestation is always monadic.  …

Beta:   This is a big question I have with the sets of sevens ...is the planes.

Alpha:   Now, remember we just looked at it yesterday with light, vibration, sound, colour … The Solar Logos manifested vibration on the atomic subplane of the cosmic physical plane, the logoic plane.  Therefore what I am concluding here is that the three that are on this atomic subplane may be representatives of the Solar Logos and are more like the three beings that surround him than they are Planetary Logoi.  In other words I am looking at the trinity and I am trying to make a case to myself that maybe the trinity is reflected as these three beings here.  … Of course, you know that is what it is because from the causal body of the Solar Logos there are three lines that tell you that the personality aspect of the Solar Logos is here being represented.  ... Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva as a lower personality triangle. 

Beta:   And the lines to the others are going from the seven are going to the Great Bear.

Alpha:   Exactly.  And they might go to the Pleiades as well.  So I think that in conclusion, these three are related to Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in the solar system.

Gamma:   Which is the trinity

Alpha:   In our present solar system?

Beta:   That is curious.  It is simultaneously in one as well as in three.  And on higher levels.

Gamma:   What would be nice here is on this chart after 1238, to determine where the planes are. 

Alpha:   Well, and we will be able to do that when we can place the Solar Logos pretty well.  Matter of fact if we can place the Solar Logos as a reference point and be pretty sure about it, we might have a whole lot easier time with some of the others.

Delta:   Why in this diagram on 344 do the seven Planetary Logoi  seem to be coming from a higher source than the three logoi?  There is the three logoi on the Adi plane, the seven on the monadic.  So why does the monadic plane have the higher source. The cosmic buddhic?  And the Adi, which is the cosmic mental? … I think its a (inaudible) buddhic … is four and is along the line of two, four, six, as monadic as ....

Beta:   That is true ... but these are also the reflections of the pranas on the second plane and if my thesis is correct that the second plane is the plane of the ray lords (rather than Spirits before the Throne), then the ray lords, the rays, enter in on the second plane, and they individualise on the third plane, which was my confusion.

Alpha:   OK.   Let’s take that when we get to it so we can actually concentrate on it and follow Beta, and remember what he said that the seven stars in the Great Bear are the prototypes of the seven Planetary Logoi.  So he is simply emphasising that relationship.  Who knows how high the original source for these other three might go.  … they are prototypical.  What is interesting is that four goes to two and then maybe two goes to four and so on.  There seems to be some alternations there, but that is OK. 

So at least we have another hypothesis on that and we have some idea of who these three lords of aspect might be, and we can expect to find them repeated in every system with a central life.  We find it repeated around Sanat Kumara, and we might find it repeated around the Planetary Logos himself.  As a matter of fact, when we get into Buddha’s of Activity we will discuss it.  There are not only three types of Buddha’s of Activity (Buddha’s of Love, Buddha’s of Activity and Buddha’s of Will), but there are three orders of Buddhas for every planetary manifestation (the globe level, the chain level and the scheme level). And that is very important because the three beings of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva who (we just identified here as three Lords of Aspect) are reflected on the scheme level, chain level, and globe level.  And which ones you choose to call Buddha’s of Activity are very important; the references of the three levels of Buddha’s are on page 873.  And the reason that that is important is because they correspond to the trinity.  In other words, we want the correspondence to the trinity in all the beings that we know.  So in man the correspondence to the trinity would be Will, Wisdom and Activity, probably.  On the globe they are the three Buddha’s of Activity, on the chain level, he calls it Pratyeka Buddha’s, and on the scheme level three entities ...

Beta:   Existences ...  Entities, existences ...

Alpha:   ... existences, OK, well, good, Beta you are really good at distinctions ...

Delta:   So Pratyeka Buddha’s on the chain level.

Beta:   They are called entities.

Alpha:   Oh.  That is interesting.  Yeah.  “Mysterious entities.”  And on the solar systemic level they are called Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.  And then we can probably take that up as next to the constellational level which tells you that for every seven suns that you see three are invisible, or three beings are invisible.  And we can probably take it up to the OAWNMBS and say that that great entity is surrounded by his own trinity.  So basically what we have done is we have traced the trinity all the way from man to the highest being we are considering and saying that that three-foldness continues.

Gamma:   It is a good idea to start with the sun.  In fact if we define very precisely what the sun is and then ...

Alpha:   ... and then branch out, yes, the sun is so central to us and is such a ...

Beta:   We’ve done a history ... you probably had it in mind. … I was thinking the opposite. 

Alpha:   OK, that is pretty important because normally what you normally think of when you think of a solar system, or of any system, you think hey there is the seven, and there is the one, but what we are taking about is the three intervening, we are talking about a level that intervenes. … And that exists for man too.

Beta:   The nine and the one.

Alpha:   ... the nine and the one.  .. probably, I would have to count it all out.

Gamma:   Can I have an answer to my question here?

Alpha:   Yeah, here is this, 1238, this circle for the Planetary Hierarchy OK?  And is there one of these circles the same as this one here we  have on page 344?  You know, is it this circle of that circle?

Beta:   That is a very good question.  The Planetary Hierarchy would have to be on the seven planes of the solar system rather than the five planetary planes, though its work takes place on the five planetary planes, do you suppose?

Alpha:   Ah.  Yeah, oh wow look at that.  You know in a way, Shamballa must include the atomic subplane of the cosmic physical plane.  It necessarily has to because Christ himself, who is only a seventh degree initiate, is already penetrating to the cosmic astral plane.  So Sanat Kumara, who is working on the Cosmic Physical Plane, must certainly be focused atomically, especially since he is a subset of the Solar Logos.  See, everything about the Solar Logos is focused atomically on the Cosmic Physical Plane.  Everything about the Planetary Logoi is focused monadically.  So Sanat Kumara is related to the Solar Logos in some small way, so he has to be focused atomically.  Therefore ....

Delta:   Sanat Kumara is focused atomically and the other Kumara’s are focused .....

Alpha:   OK.   I didn’t say about the other Kumaras because I don’t know yet.  We’ll see in a minute.

Gamma:   Let’s talk about this ...

Alpha:   But, I’m getting to the point Gamma.  The point is simply this, that if you include Sanat Kumara in the Planetary Hierarchy (which is legitimate) then it is the outer circle (on page 344) that includes the Planetary Hierarchy.  The middle circle includes only up to being a Master of the Wisdom.  And the smallest circle simply includes the personality of man.  So they relate to the three different aspects.  The first circle is third aspect, the middle circle is second aspect, and the final outer circle is first aspect, including Sanat Kumara as the entire Planetary Hierarchy.  I think that is correct.  That doesn’t mean that Sanat Kumara is anywhere near as great a being as these triangles that are listed here.

Beta:   Right.  And our planetary evolution is fivefold.  That is what is so daunting, that throughout these cycles that fivefold nature in this solar system will continue for an immensely long period of time. 

Delta:   Why is our planetary evolution fivefold.

Beta:   Because of the five planes of the Monad, and the goal for humanity is only the fifth initiation, in this cycle.

Alpha:   Which is essentially focused on the Atmic plane, in other words it finishes plane five.

Delta:   And then say the solar system only goes down to the mental so those are the upper five.

Beta:   That is great.  Yes, that is true. 

Delta:   And then how might, or might it not be, five Kumaras who would be (inaudible) .....

Beta:  Oh my God!  Oh my God! Oh my God! ...

(multiple voices)

Alpha:   Are we … Here is a quick question:  Is it true that we as a solar system have not yet finished the recapitulation of what went on in the first solar system, which was fivefold?  In other words, this solar system has to recapitulate and get into its own program, so to speak. 

Beta:   We were supposed to have been in the fifth round along with Venus, but due to the moon chain failure ...

Alpha:   ... that’s “we” as Earth, but I am talking from a solar systemic level.  The solar system must recapitulate what when on in the first solar system. … And somewhere in my mind I seem to remember that we are only now getting ready to move into the real program of the (current, second) solar system ... which is related to the second principle, and all of that. 

Beta:   In the next solar system humanity will have to wait, it’ll individualise on the fifth plane instead of the third. 

Alpha:   OK.   And there is something else about the next solar system that it begins on the monadic plane.  I can’t remember the context.  But something about it going no lower than the monadic plane.  Here is what I am getting at ... Right here on earth we have a problem. We lost time and should be in the fifth round with our twin sister Venus, so to speak.  We should be advanced.  So, in a certain sense we are back there working out third aspect issues when we should really be already into the fifth cosmic kingdom in terms of the planet.  We should be correlated with the number five.  That is on the planetary level.  Now if you look at the big solar systemic level we are half way through our solar systemic evolution, roughly, at least I seem to think so … but I can’t cite the reference. 

Gamma:   Astronomically it seems to be right.  … About five billion years.  And I think the Solar System will last ten to eleven billion years. 

Alpha:   OK.  Then if that is the case, if we are really half way through the solar systemic, the question is have we finished the program that recapitulates the Brahma aspect solar systemically.  Are we yet into Vishnu in terms of our solar system? … Is the solar system yet into its Vishnu part.

Beta:   Well, at the very beginning of Cosmic Fire he says we are a system of active intelligence but latent love-wisdom.

Alpha:   OK.   And that is my question.  … I am saying that five is important because we are still dragging along the five from the earlier solar system and have not yet worked through it.  Just like when a man evolves,  he spends the greater part of his time fulfilling the Brahma aspect and once completed, he more rapidly goes through Vishnu and Shiva. 

Delta:   Well … one second, I don’t know if this bears on this, and the whole thing on this solar system and the number five, but on pages 695 and particularly 696 in Cosmic Fire.  … the very bottom of 695, the top of the paragraph, it talks about the triangle, the cube and the five pointed star for humanity, then it says at the very bottom:   “In this solar system, the above numbers are the most important from the angle of the evolution of consciousness. In the earlier system, the numbers six and seven held the mystery hid. In the next system, it will be two and one. This refers only to the psychical development.”  And then he goes on for the rest of this page talking about five in the solar system. 

Alpha:   OK.   Well, from the point of view of the solar system Sirian connection five would be extremely important.

Delta:   And who knows how many rounds things have too, because, on 744:   “Complication comes to the student nevertheless in the fact that two of the schemes cover their cyclic periods in five rounds, while others have seven; one scheme has but three rounds, but a mystery is hidden here; on the inner round one planet has nine cycles to run before the purpose of its Lord is completed.” Where is DK when we need him?

Alpha:   That is good but please remember that the numbers of the first solar system were five, the numbers of the second solar system is seven, and the numbers of the third solar system is nine.  And you know, the fivefold word of the first solar system, fivefold, Brahma, sevenfold is Vishnu, and ninefold is Shiva aspect. 

                Anyway, the the number of our solar system and of the second ray is definitely seven.  So, you know what is really interesting?  That Christ is prototypical of advancement into the number seven over the number five, just the way, as some sort of higher Christ (and this is in relation to our chain, and so forth), some sort of higher being, might move out of five into seven with respect to our solar system. … There has to be a whole bunch of Christ beings, really in a certain funny sense, Sanat Kumara ... is sort of a higher Christ in a way ... it’s interesting, they are all along the solar line. 

So ... OK, look, we are not making great progress here, but we are being a bit thorough.

Alpha:   OK.   … now let’s move on to the Seven Heavenly Men … without getting into a big controversy about Heavenly Man or Planetary Logoi.

Gamma:   I am not sure what we have really pinned down about those three beings.

Alpha:   Well ... we didn’t really pin it down, there was a difference of opinion.  I said Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva were represented by the three who were expressions of the causal body just like the personality is the expression of the causal body.  And then, further, I said that there is an analogy to the triangle around the dot, the point within the triangle, and that it is occurring on all levels at all times,  the three always surrounding the one.

Gamma:   But do we have an idea about those three, those two which form the personality, two planets,  and the three planets which form the second ray?  So, we have an idea of the first ray.

Delta:   Well you brought up earlier about Uranus, the second ray ... Pisces, Uranus, and so forth. … that is why I also wanted to discuss what these triangles meant and what level they are operating on.  There is that correlation.  But I am not quite sure what level.

Alpha:   OK.  Well, every one of them we are given a hint. … Every one of them is a mental, emotional, physical body.  So it is possible to play with some sort of configuration, but we will never know for sure.  And one thing is for sure, we have twelve major planets right now.  Don’t we.  How many have we got?  ... Ah, we don’t know what the sun and moon veils.  We have ten? 

Delta:   Yeah.

Alpha:   OK.  But we are not going to have room for all of them ... and some of are going to have to be subsumed under others. …

Gamma:   No, but do we have an idea of this (first ray), of which one it could be?

Alpha:   Well, this leaves Vulcan, Mercury, Pluto, and Neptune.

Beta:   I have a grid if you want to look at it.  And it explains the synthesising schemes and the planets that veil the sun, the planets that veil the moon, so it is solar and planetary.

Alpha:   But are you coming up with new planets that are veiled by the sun and the moon. 

Beta:   Uh no, not yet. 

Alpha:   But they probably do exist.  You said if a non sacred second ray planet veiled by the sun.  Does he not refer to a non sacred fourth ray planet, which …

Beta:   We just discovered that Vesta has a molten core so it could be considered a planet. … Cliff put that on the internet the other day.  Vesta, the asteroid, it is not the largest, but one of the four largest and it is the brightest and has evidence of a  great amount of magmic activity on the surface, volcanic activity. Because of their measurements they think it  has a molten core; the only asteroid that does.  And they think that meteorites that just fell on Earth in the last ten years came form Vesta. 

Alpha:   Um-hmm, so that makes it planetary in category?

Gamma:   You know I am listing him in other terms also, the [sounds likeà] congerites  are very, very old.  So if it comes from a molten core it could not be (inaudible) four or five billion years.

Alpha:   Yeah.  (We will get up and take a break.)   But let’s just move onto the Seven Heavenly Men.  Normally, generically and non-specifically are referring to the seven aspects of the seven principles of a Solar Logos.  And they are usually considered to be equivalent to Planetary Logoi when used loosely,  ...but when used technically there might be different definitions. 

Epsilon:   Could you rapidly define a principle?

Alpha:   Yeah.  A principle is a fundamental aspect of consciousness, one of seven fundamental aspects of consciousness manifesting within any system and always in connection with a field through which it manifests specifically.  In other words, the principle of Manas is a quality of consciousness which manifests in relation to and through a prakritic field called the manasic vehicle.  The principle of Buddhi is a quality of consciousness which manifests in relation to and through a prakritic field called the Buddhic vehicle.

Epsilon:   So what difference do you make between the principle and the entity or beings, the incarnation of the field or the rest ...

Alpha:   The entity is life itself.  And the reason that the life is circumscribed is because its degree of consciousness is prakritically bounded.

Epsilon:   So the entity would be the life aspect.  And the principle would be the consciousness aspect.?

Alpha:   The principle is the consciousness aspect, yes.

Gamma:   ... “prakritically” speaking ...

Alpha:   Well that is the problem.  The whole universe is involved in prakritic boundedness.  The Universal Logos is the first of the bounded beings.  I have to think about this because, you know, I am defining this in this philosophy book that I am trying to write.  …

 Beta:   Something about this on 1193-1195, in terms of these threefold sets of three:  “They are forms of three monadic "vestures," worn by the one Monad....” ... and 1194:  “This may seem to be a great complexity, but it is not so much stranger after all than the phenomenon of the Monad (in time and space and during evolution) demonstrating forth as the Triad, the Ego and the Personality. This type of triple Avatar only makes its appearance under a peculiar series of cycles concerned with a group of Monads who were the most progressed and advanced at the opening of the mahamanvantara. As yet, there are not many progressed enough to do this triple work; the Buddha and nine others being the only Ones as yet remaining in touch with our particular planet in this particular manner. A few are as Christ is, and have the power to make a dual appearance. This type of monad is only found on Rays two, four, six.”

Alpha:   Ah Ha!  Bang.  There we go again.  This monad is found on rays two, four, and six – right, there are two monads of aspect.  That is one reference I didn’t have.  Thank you.   I am looking for all of the references in which the sevenfold possibility of monadic rays are given. 

 

(end of side 6A)

 

Alpha:   We are interrupting here to introduce a subject on  Shankaracharya, page 672 & 673.  This is a magnificent, magnificent section .  We are talking about Monadic rays, as usual.

In the Footnote:  “The great sage Sankaracharya who is known to us all as the leading head of the adwaitic movement that was set on foot subsequent to the time of the equally great Sage known as Gautama Buddha, the head of the doctrine of Buddhi or Buddhism. Both are great Masters of compassion and may be conceived as the two hemispheres of the burning globe of light that is placed on the central mental mount to impart light to the East and the West. The two great Masters are mystically connected, if you will listen to H.P. B., and to understand the natures of these two beings is to understand the nature of the entire cosmos divisible as two hemispheres, the one being the land of the sun-rise of thought eternal, and the other being "the Pillar to the West upon whose face the rising sun of thought eternal poureth forth its most glorious waves."  They are representatives-for us-(the poor children of the dust of the ground) of the two great powers known in the Puranas as Siva and Vishnu, the universal sower and reaper, who by their interaction are said to support the universe of progress. – Some Thoughts on the Gita, pp. 92-93”.

It is quite clear who is Shiva and who is Vishnu. Right?  I don’t know if I brought my Agni Yoga book, but right there it is the drama of Vedanta vs. Buddhism.  Vedanta has for its greatest exponent Shankara,  and Buddhism, Buddha.  And Morya says of Buddhism, he says, it studies the vehicles and their interrelationships.  Obviously it is the whole second ray thing.  And Shankara studies enforced homogeneity.  That is the law of synthesis.  It is called the law of enforced homogeneity, and that is Shankara.  And if you read his tiny little book here, which I did bring along because I am never without it [The Vivekachudamani].  This whole book is about enforced homogeneity … the whole point is that if you don’t dissolve everything into nothing you’ve missed the point of your life. 

Beta:   So that is why that practice is found in Buddhism [kalachakra?] … everything is dissolved into nothing at the end of the [ceremonial sand painting]. It is never left out.  All the benefit that accrues (karmic benefit) ... accrues from the performance.  Also [the sand?] is handed and out and dissolves into [the water].

Alpha:   And I am sure there are aspects, after all the Buddha does have a first ray aspect to his nature.  Because you know Shamballa and the Buddha are connected, and let’s not forget that Shamballa gives the first ray aspect of the second ray. And that, Sanat Kumara may be a being of will because he is profoundly second ray, as greatest of the Saviours on our planet, because he is a direct disciple of the Solar Logos who is second ray. 

Beta:   And there is another statement that says that the first ray is anchored in the heart. … The true first is anchored, which means the hierarchy, second ray, is anchored in the head.

Alpha:   Yes, second ray, consciousness is anchored in the head.  ... interesting reversal.  There is also the peculiar statement by Leadbeater (which I don’t know if it can be given any credence)  where he says (almost a bizarre statement)  that Master Morya and Master Koot Humi are changing monadic rays.  It is a peculiar statement.  He says that the Master Koot Humi is really focusing upon the first ray and Master Morya is focusing upon the second ray, monadically.  I don’t have the exact quote. … Leadbeater is saying this.  But, it has to be compared with the statement which is made, that the monadic ray remains the same throughout the aeon and does not change.  Now that is a ...

Gamma:   How about the cycle of the monad which is 200,000?

Alpha:   Yeah.  I have a question  about that in our agenda sequence.  (We will get to that in about five years.)  This 250,000 years is a monadic cycle.  However, monadic cycles occur in three’s and one’s; soul cycles in seven’s and three’s; and personality cycles in four’s and seven’s.  You know we could start putting all that time information together with a number of cycles. The problem is we don’t know the pralayas.  We don’t know how long out of cycle an entity stays. And, that is the whole problem with that connection.

Gamma:   You know, I made the real thing about the pralaya.  Because I calculated the amounts it takes for a Solar system to evolve, our solar system.  And the pralaya which existed between the past solar system and our solar system is about 200 million years, or something like that.  And then I compared to the cycles given in Cosmic Fire about the Manu, and there is a moment where it is a small pralaya and corresponds, in terms of ratio, exactly to pralaya between solar system.

Alpha:    See there is something ... It is very interesting.  I think that, actually, Gamma you have an interesting destiny connected with time. 

Gamma:   Yeah.  I think that, one of my next subjects is to look through everything the Tibetan said about time.  Because the last thing I showed you in those readings we have on the antahkarana, there is one statement about time which is so ‘out of this world’, you know.  You wonder what it means.

(several voices)

Alpha:   So, now the seven Heavenly Men, as far as we are concerned, are more or less in the category of Planetary Logoi.  Or at least it is either an aspect of -- the seven-foldness of a solar entity?  Or a solar being? We all know, think we know. what the Planetary Logoi are, more or less what the Seven Heavenly Men are, right?  We could get into a very extended conversation about this but …

Delta:   Well,  what happened to the logoi of the moon chain?  … didn’t this resonate, not just in our own situation, but through the whole solar system?  It wasn’t just a local situation here it was involved with other things within the solar system, but also in the Pleiades? 

Alpha:   But it only resonated because of the effect on the Planetary Logos, right?  OK.   But that is the whole mystery of the moon chain factor.  Look, are we ready to move on with the seven Heavenly Men?

Delta:   Maybe the moon chain logoi are in jail now somewhere?  … mishandling of funds!

Alpha:   OK.   If we want to get technical it would be a moon chain regent.  Right.

Delta:   But how is that relevant to us, in other words, the head of the moon scheme … wouldn’t there be a moon scheme?

Alpha:   No.  There is no moon scheme; it’s a chain phenomena.

Delta:   ... the moon chain regent is in jail.

Alpha:   ... well there is a connection, there is a definite connection.

Delta:   Well, there’s a little spot on Saturn.

Alpha:   Yes, in Agni Yoga they talked about the spot on Saturn being prepared for the ‘baddies’.  You’ve read that haven’t you? … I don’t think those words were exactly used.  By the way, you know the seven Heavenly Men are analogous to chains.  The seven (or ten) Heavenly Men are analogous to chains if  you consider the solar logos, to be part of a greater scheme.

Beta:   Right.

Alpha:   So, we think we know something about a round when it comes to our chain.  At least, theosophy has made us think we know something about that.  But we know very little about what you might call a scheme round.  And it is quite interesting that, if you go up to the level of a solar system, when you look at a Planetary Logos, you have a chain there.  And the development within the solar system must proceed on the basis of rounds.  And if it proceeds on the basis of rounds it involves all the chains.  Sequentially, or simultaneously?  (a big question) ... or both.

Beta:   ... and on what level?

Alpha:   ...yeah.  On what level. 

Beta:   ... because we know that the chains dip down into matter.  And then come back out.

Alpha:   Apparently so.  Now here is another big question.  You have a sun here, you call it a solar logos and it is part of, more or less, part of a seven fold constellation and it is one of them.  And it is visible.  Now you know what I am going to say, that you have these six other solar systems and they all have visible suns, apparently. If in a scheme, you have seven chains, but only one of them has a physical globe. If that is so then when you look at the sun and say it is part of the chain, it is the physical globe of how many other fellow suns who have no physical globe?  … So, when you are talking about the seven solar systems, or the Sirian system, one of them may have a bunch of physical suns in it.  But the other may be a description for a solar scheme the only chain of which that has a physical sun is ours.

Beta:   Our solar system  Or our solar scheme?

Alpha:   Our solar scheme is not a solar system. … A solar system is one chain of a solar scheme.  You have a planetary scheme and a chain within.

Delta:   A solar system is just one chain of a planetary scheme …

Alpha:   Yes.  And I am analogising to the fact that any planetary scheme has only one physical globe. … Therefore any solar scheme has only one visible sun. … And so what is the nature of these other entities that are the chains of a solar scheme?

Delta:   Well those are the locas ... Bhur, Bhuvar, Svar, Mahar, Janar, Tapas, Satya.

Alpha:   Locas?  OK.   ... I just don’t know …

Beta:   That is down here too on earth as well.

Alpha:   OK.  But you see there is a very important thing going on here … which is to realise there are two kinds of things going on.  We talked about the seven solar systems, apparently we think all of them have a visible sun.  And they are informed by a great entity.

Delta:   As a thing is viewed, so it appears, so we think it is visible, yeah. 

Alpha:   Well.  Maybe it is visible. Maybe Alcore, or Beta Centuri ... maybe Procean, or …

Delta:   Well we will proceed as visible even if it is invisible.

Alpha:   OK.   But maybe it is visible. … I am talking about two different kinds of things.  One of them is a solar system with seven visible suns.  And the other thing is a solar scheme that each one of those visible suns is part of.  Each one of those visible suns is part of a solar scheme.  And so you have ...

Beta:   At that point you have ten schemes, seven or ten schemes.

Alpha:   Yeah.  If you have ten planetary schemes then you have ten chains in a solar scheme, at least by analogy.  And he definitely says there are ten chains to a scheme – not just seven.  And let me end it by simply saying I don’t know the nature of the beings who are chains, just like our Solar Logos is, but have no visible sun.   Is there such a thing? … there has to be solar chains just like there are planetary chains. 

Epsilon:   Why do you assume there are chains without visible … ?

Beta:   ... a  human only shows 1/7th of their nature, a planet, only 1/7th …

Alpha:   OK, let’s turn to page 385, notice forty-nine different globes, seven different chains, and only one system which has a concrete physical globe.

Epsilon:   It is ours.

Alpha:   Yeah.  I am likening that to the sun.  I am saying that the sun is a chain. In other words,  our sun is part of a, well, my God, there is the whole idea of the seven suns.  There are going to be six subjective globes that correspond to our sun.  And then beyond that the subjective chains, six of which do not have a visible sun.  And what is the nature of those beings?  So there is a mystery there.  Now unless, ‘as above so below’ does not operate (the Tibetan does say that), remember you are only seeing 1/7th of any incarnated life.

Beta:   These things, ah, it is so important to write them down because they’re so difficult to express. 

Delta:   That is why I think its worth expressing it in terms of the locas. 

Alpha:   See, I don’t know very much about those.

Beta:   Well, the locas are tied in with the brahmanda, purana, and the brahmanda scheme.  The egg of Brahma which is a solar system ...

Delta:   Here it is … I have another diagram from something else ...

Beta:   .... during the deluge, or during the pralaya, the Brahma in charge of that solar system ...

Delta:   Oh yes, it has the thing from the Gayatri, Bhur, Bhuvar, Svar  … it goes up to Mahar, Janar, Tapas, Satya.  And then it has all the different globes in it.

Epsilon:  This has to deal with one planet.  No?

Delta:  Yes, but by analogy it would work with the solar systems. … Notice how the bottom right hand corner has Bhur, Bhuvar, Svar, Mahar, Janar, Tapas, Satya.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Well, all I am saying is, what is the name of these.  We are told about seven solar systems, but whereas we have the Neptune chain, the Venus chain, the Saturn chain,  Earth, Mars, Mercury, whatever ... You don’t hear a thing about the accompanying chains of the Solar Logos.  Look, there can be a Solar Logos, our Solar Logos might just be the lord of the solar chain, and there might be a superior Solar Logos, whatever it is, that is the lord of the whole solar scheme. 

Beta:   And do these solar rounds, how do they proceed?  Did they proceed from within one septenary system of seven visible suns?  Or do they actually take seven or ten of these, seven constellations? And go from one sun to the other?

Alpha:   OK.   Well, here is the same question.  Let me draw it on the board here.  You know, frankly, it is obviously diagrammatic and therefore limited to the linearity of human mentality.  But, when you have the usual diagram  it goes like this and these are chains, you know and by the way DK really described them differently, doesn’t he.  He arranges them differently, which is really interesting, you know.

Beta:   Right, he does.  Usually with a trinity and a quaternary, yeah.

Alpha:   OK.   Each one of these is a chain.  Now, so we think we know what is going on down here, we think we have been given to understand in the simple Theosophical version and it goes like this: seven times.  So that’s simple.

Gamma:    And then one of them is physical.

Alpha:   And yeah.  And this is physical.  … This so far is called as a chain round.  And this is what we think we know about.  OK.  Now, I also have a reference to a scheme round.

Beta:   ... it’s not easy to  figure out how it fits into pralaya …

Alpha:   OK.  Well that is good.  What you are now doing is drawing a scheme round.  ...what he is saying, this is a scheme round, like a circle.  I have never seen it drawn before, but so far, so good. 

Delta:   I think in the solar system that _____  has diagrams like that. 

Alpha:   Lets look at the solar system.  … Now, here is the question.  After every round comes a pralaya, of a kind.  Is that pralaya one that lasts while the fifth chain experiences its first round, the sixth chain its first round, and so forth.  And then when seven is finished do we have something called the inner round here in which there is like total subjectivity?

Beta:   And what if human consciousness can only sustain itself, a fragment down here, like a little tiny (inaudible) the bottom most (inaudible) maybe in one root race or two in the third and fifth.

Epsilon:   Now are those chains going on one after the other?

Alpha:   Well, this is another question. You see, there is a simultaneity ... The other possibility is this.  This kind of thing.  (Draws...)  Or, there is another possibility of seven going at the same time.  The question is, you would not have a scheme round would you?  Lets look at two other possibilities.

Beta:   All of these rounds must happen simultaneously, right? ... in a sense.

Alpha:   Well, we know that our rounds don’t happen simultaneously ...  Our local round does not happen because we are given durations and we are told long ago, and this and that.  It would seem a tremendous long time to wait while it circled through all of these others; a tremendous long time between the first round and second round for that to happen.  This is one possible diagram.

Delta:   This is one of many suggested diagrams, in this book, I mean many diagrams are suggested.

Epsilon:   Maybe they don’t go always at the same speed and maybe the speed accelerates.

Alpha:   Sure, this accelerates.  But let’s not lose our train of thought here.  Name your objections to the following: let’s just draw it like this, you know what I am going to do here, Why would this be objectionable? like this (draws) and so forth, in sequence.  

Beta:   Those are usually called world periods.

Alpha:   ... this to me is a world period.  From here ... to here.  One seventh of a round.  This is a chain period.

Beta:   Yeah but he says that each globe has a world period in a sense.

Alpha:   Each globe has a world period?  Our world period is now undisclosed. 

Delta:   Why would that be objectionable?  I would only object to the idea of it being sequential.

Alpha:   OK.   Good.  Why do you object to it being sequential here when you don’t object to the sequentialness of this?

Delta:   Here is why.  By analogy within our selves, we are seven chakras and it isn’t like the base of the spine becomes a 100% unfolded, then the sacral becomes 100% unfolded, then the solar plexus becomes 100% unfolded, etc.  So, it is true each of these chakras has its own way of cycling through its full development.  But the development is going on in all the chakras simultaneously ... to some degree. 

Alpha:   Yes, I agree with that.  Because we cannot have a system in which we have complete unfoldment of one chakra before you move to the next; however, you have to be able to have simultaneous unfoldment but not of all the chakras in the same degree.  Because there are whole chakras that are ignored in terms of their unfoldment until later, whereas they simply put on a maintenance level in the early days of evolution.

Delta:   Maybe that goes back to a statement, some in three rounds, some in five, some in seven and some (snaps fingers) do it like that, and some take longer.

Beta:   Well I was just thinking that if you stack these instead of arrange them in a circle you might have a spiralled cyclic round.  It takes place simultaneously with the orbital rounds. … A forward round might be solar and Sirian in nature, the spiral cyclic might be solar in nature, and then the chains and rounds as Blavatsky described them would be truly planetary. … I am thinking that if you have cycles of activity and vitality based around the sun say, through the seven planets and through synthesising schemes that take place constantly, you could have a round that comes into the chain like this (draws) and while you have this other ....

Alpha:   OK.   So this would be a solar kind of round. … It would touch all parts of a planetary scheme once  and then move on to something else because the planetary chains would be like globes.

Beta:   Right.  It would touch what it could and evoke the response that it could until the next cycle.

Alpha:   Yeah.  OK, now what is the analogy to the fact that the base of the spine centre unfolds rapidly in a certain aspect, but not completely until the end.  What is the analogy of the fact that you have a great unfoldment of the sacral and solar plexus centre for many, many years until they are almost completely unfolded, whereas the heart centre and the throat centre may be ignored until later.  How do you factor in this the ignoring of the higher centres into the diagram of rounds? 

Beta:   Yeah, why does the planetary entity allow millions of human beings to die and be rewarded without awakening those centres. … Whole lifetimes go by without the centres being awakened.  A person just has the lower centres active, and they drop dead and have to reincarnate again and again and again.

Alpha:   See, and we are just to the point where we can come back to what Delta was interested in yesterday. 

Beta:   Ah, so this ties in to the chakras, certainly.

Alpha:   To the chakras, it ties in to the chakras.  You see, so the development of rounds must tie in to the unfoldment of the chakras.  Now, in order to do that we have to look at a solar system and say, this planet is this chakra, that planet is that chakra, right?  Now, that is the first thing.  Then we have to look at a scheme and say, this chain is that chakra, this chain is that chakra.  And then we have to look at the same on the chain level and say these are the chakras.  And if we can do that and we can analogise from the human etheric unfoldment and from the unfoldment of the egoic lotus, we can figure out which one should unfold faster, and then we can figure out a pattern of movement that will make them unfold faster.  So in a way, it is kind of a break through there in terms of looking at the esotericism of rounds from the cycle point of view, from the timing point of view.  As below, so above, in this case. 

Well, it even strikes me that it is possible (I hate to think of it) but ... it’s a vague thought ... If we knew which ones of these corresponded to (flet’s just look at it the way DK looks at it), if we knew which ones correspond to the lower chakras we could have four or five circles going in a first chakra, drop off, go the next one and do one or two, then fly through the next on a single, come back and then just fly thorough and finish off these over here.  Then go on to the next.  Fly through.  In other words, the rounds don’t have to be regular sequential and always of the same duration. We can develop one centre through more attention while just developing the later centres ...

Delta:   And is what I think of as the geometric unfoldment of the centres where it talks about it being different for each ray. …

Alpha:   OK ... that has a relationship to the rounds and the globes.  … Depending on the monadic ray of the entity that is manifesting here, so will be this periods of development.  So maybe this is terribly misleading to put these all in a big circle like this.  Maybe we should be able to pass from one to the other for certain cycles, leave off without finishing, and go to another one that requires stimulation, for maybe less or more cycles. We get all of the lower chakras to the point of full unfoldment and then concentrate on other chains, which have been sustained all the time by just life energy but have had no particular rounding development. …

Delta:   So there is a statement page 357 Cosmic Fire.  It says each scheme as each human centre will … a, b, c, d, e & then it says f...  Well, let me do e first.

“e.  Be connected in geometrical formation with certain other centres of Heavenly Men, making systemic triangles.32

“f.    Be characterised by different stages of activity according to the initiation towards which the Logos may be working. Thus, at one period one centre or Heavenly Man may be the subject of logoic attention, and of specialised stimulation, and at another period a totally different scheme may be the object of vitalisation. For some time the Logos has turned His attention to the Earth Scheme and to Saturn, whilst Uranus is receiving stimulation. Much is therefore accentuated, and increased evolutionary development is the consequence of this divine attention.”

(many voices)

Alpha:   There, as a matter of fact, just the same way that you would like in astrology to throw out certain of the knee jerk responses as to how to interpret, we might have to really rethink the whole question of how rounds occur, in a way that is much more interactive than this plodding kind of, here we go ... round and round we go. 

Delta:   Yeah

Alpha:   There is a kind of sequentialness to it, but it may not be a regular sequence and there is a simultane­ousness to it, and yet it may not be equal activity.  Two things going on at the same time but not of equal activity.  For instance, the stuff going on right now, the logos is turning his attention to the Earth Scheme … or maybe the Earth chain to a certain extent.  But he is concentrating on Saturn too and what else did you say? 

Delta:   Uranus.

Alpha:   And Uranus.  So who knows what is going on there in a stimulated way and not going on elsewhere?  This to me has been a breakthrough thought, you know, to think in this way.

Beta:   Saturn  ... antahkarana.  If it is exoteric/esoteric antahkarana on a solar level.  And is stimulating Uranus [for?] the next solar system … That is the mental permanent atom.

Alpha:   Yeah.  OK.  I see what you are driving at.   Beta throws out these things that represent a synthesis of thoughtform, and they come out in about three sentences.  And you have to say ... wait.  It takes an hour to unravel it.  But that is assuming of course that Saturn is antahkarana.

Beta:   Right.  For the time being.

Alpha:   Saturn—Uranus, I can see. 

Gamma:   This would be reflected in our system right here  ... in the (inaudible) of Shamballa.  ... (inaudible) Uranus.

Beta:   Right.

Delta:   So there might be a manasic stimulation (page 200 of Esoteric Astrology), basically it says that the Earth and Uranus were the product of the previous solar system and third ray activity.  So this intuitively hints towards manasic stimulation and possibly trying to transfer off the cosmic astral plane onto the cosmic mental and get in touch with Sirius.

Alpha:   OK.   But you said Earth and Uranus were the product of the previous solar system? Is that what it says? … Well that must mean that the personality ray of Uranus has a lot of three in it.  And so does the personality ray of earth, and that they manifested in the last solar system according to the personality ray primarily ... or developed that.

Beta:   Or,  Yeah ... interesting.

Alpha:   OK.   The point is simply this, this to me is a break through area which ties the chakras directly in to planetary and solar unfoldment.  And if we could figure out which  schemes represented which chakras, which I think we should do, and we could compare that to the fact that the solar logos is half way through ...

Gamma:   That is what you did.

Alpha:   Yeah.  That is what I did.  In a fit of madness.  But, now I don’t know if I can substantiate it. 

                If we could say the Solar Logos is half way through his system, and as a second ray soul, and if a man who has a second ray soul is half way through his development, what chakras would be unfolding?  What triangles would be receiving stimulation?  We might be able to see what is going on the different schemes. The big question is, are there some schemes (some chains), on which there are no rounds going on at all?   See, what does a round really do?  Is there such a thing as development without a round?  Am I getting into a third ray jungle here?  Or  ...

Delta:   Probably, the crown and base of the spine activity is minimal at first in terms of the rounds.

Alpha:   Yeah, tell you what, there are three aspects to every chakra.  (He goes into this in Rays Five).  There is the third ray aspect which he said the theosophist dealt with in the early literature; there is the second ray aspect; and then the jewel, in every system.  So it may well be that something like the base of the spine undergoes very strong rounding out on the third aspect of it and then just stops.  …

Delta:   I agree.  He also says somewhere that physical kundalini has risen and we need to raise our mental kundalini, which  would be that same idea that all the chakras have had the third aspect worked through but need the other aspects ...

Beta:   Well, this is very interesting too.  It ties in to the statement that the standard of the petals of the chakra relate to the planetary level.  But the second level, or the soul, operates through triangles or triangulations.  And then the third level would operate in terms of the jewel. 

Alpha:   Well, that is interesting.  So that the petals are there as a foundation and there is a triangulation between the petals?   In other words, interactiveness between the petals?

Beta:   Right.  Between chakras.  Also between petals, yeah.   Definitely.  It also would allow for these outer rounds.

Delta:   The petals are the chains.

Alpha:   Lets find that in Rays and Initiations. 

Beta:   There is one in Telepathy too   ...real detailed.

Alpha:   He says, everybody knows how to unfold the outer part of the chakra.  

Delta:   Ah ... I don’t know

Beta:   Oh ...  I’d love to see it.

Alpha:   ... Rays and the Initiations, Epsilon, we just studied that ... or was it DINA II.  We are looking for the fact that there are three aspects to the centres.  And the jewel aspect of the centre is the one that he says has not been given out up to now, but now it is being given out how to awaken the jewel aspect of the centre.  … while you are looking for that I want to make a point that I am liable to lose. …

Now what I am going to say is that the rounds themselves involve probably three aspects of divinity.  And that you cannot systematise the length of a pralaya because it is quite possible that you could have three rounds on a particular planet and develop the third aspect.  And that you could have a pralaya that would last a long, long time, until it is time for the next aspects of that chakra to be developed.  It could zoom off and develop a whole bunch of other things for quite a while and only later come back to rounding out the particular chakra.  And, you know, when we have this very kind of pedestrian sequential attitude …

Delta:   No.  ... and by analogy also reincarnation is like a musical symphony, a certain theme might come in at the beginning, but might disappear for a while and then come back in at a certain point.

Alpha:   Absolutely.  And that is the variety, you know, you give it to the woodwinds, you give it to the clarinet, right? 

Beta:   You can’t imagine how much resistance there is to that in some of the theosophical groups.

Delta:   Oh, cause people like the linear stuff?

Beta:   Yeah.  Right.

Alpha:   Oh I can imagine that ... but if everything is ground on and ground on, you know. 

Gamma:   In this egoic lotus, there are so many mysteries in this.  Page 23.  We see those lines and group of petals.  And, for example the line which comes from astral heart centre, which goes to the mental solar plexus and goes to petal of love and continue to (this is most amazing).  Any of us solved that problem here? … Look at those lines here, going to the petals, and going to God knows where.

Alpha:   Well,  you see, that makes sense.  It is an alternation.  It goes love, solar plexus, love.  So, in other words, it goes 2 to 6 to 2 to 6.   Right?  This is going on to a heart centre isn’t it? … I bet when it is finishes going to the astral heart centre it’s going to go to the physical solar plexus centre.  Seems to alternate.  …

Delta:   Well, it seems like the next question, both micro and macro-cosmically, is we have these seven chakras having various levels of stimulation.  How does that tie in with the twelve petalled lotus, the egoic lotus for us  or the solar system’s twelve petalled lotus? … So, in other words, the astrology of that twelve petalled lotus ... effects the unfolding of those centres in a certain way.

Alpha:   Microcosmically, what centres in the man are unfolded as the egoic lotus unfolds?  OK.  That is first.

Delta:   Exactly.

Alpha:   Or, from another point of view, presumably the head centre, (the heart centre within the head centre) or the superior twelve on top of the head are unfolding according to chakric activity in the lower system.

Delta:   OK.   There is an interaction.

Alpha:   OK.  Now, if we can discover what twelve are unfolding on top of the head, as the chakras here unfold in the body, as the egoic lotus unfolds on its level, microcosmically, we can transfer the whole thing over to the macrocosm and say as certain planets are busy – what is the zodiac doing in terms of its own development?

Oh wait, we have a problem I just jumped a level, because the twelve petalled head centre of our Solar Logos is not the same as the zodiac.  The zodiac is a twelve petalled centre in such a great being that we would have to ask ourselves what is going on in the Great Bear, in the Pleiades and in Sirius and in Draco and Orion that is going to make the zodiac unfold?  Now, am I correct or have I a mis-correspondence?

Delta:   That is correct perhaps, but, in other words these twelve (inaudible) reflect through all the levels, is all I am proposing.

Alpha:   So that we start with man.

Delta:   Let’s start with ... (inaudible) ... grounded here ... we would never go up to the other twelve. 

Alpha:   We have a twelve here and we know zero about it.  This the human zodiac right here.  However we know something about the egoic lotus which is also a zodiac.  And we know, we can make a connection between the egoic lotus and our own chakras on the lower planes.

Beta:   That is interesting.  In terms of that twelve.  Sometimes he said it is a twelve petalled lotus in the head and a thousand petalled, sometimes he says it is the twelve petalled heart centre of the head centres. 

Alpha:   OK.  Repeat. 

Beta:   Sometimes he said the twelve petalled lotus in the thousand petalled lotus, sometimes he says the twelve petalled  heart centre among the seven head centres.

Gamma:   Yeah.  There are different levels.

Delta:   Well, one might be the horoscope based on the sun sign the other might be the horoscope based on the rising sign.  Although it goes to separate twelves, one would be the sun.

 

... end of tape 6

Tape Seven Begins

 

Alpha:   After lunch on the 23rd of May an attempt to summarise what we may have accomplished in the morning would be to say we listed the names of many entities in cosmos.  I am going to read a few of them because I know this was not on the tape and it will tape very quickly.

Solar Logos

Three Lords of Aspect

Seven Heavenly Men

Forty-nine Regents

Lord of the Globes

Forty-nine Root Manus and seed Manus

Seventy-seven embodiers of form

Planetary Spirits

Spirits before the Throne

Spirits of the Planets

Planetary Entity

Three varieties of OAWNMBS

Ray Lords

Sons of Fohat

Brothers of Fohat

Buddha’s of Activity

Buddha’s of Love

Buddha’s of Will

Kumaras (Five or one hundred and five)

Sanat Kumara

Avatars....three or four varieties

Manasadevas

Divine Manasadevas

Deva Raja Lords of Planes

Solar Entities

Nirmanakayas

Dharmakayas

Sambhogakaya

Creative Hierarchies

Grand Heavenly Men

Thanes

Dhyani Buddhas

Buddhi [sounds like] softras

Divine Kumaras

Silent Watchers

Like’s

Seven Kingdoms

Solar Pitris

Solar Angels

Solar Lords

Lunar Pitris

Lunar Angels

Lunar Lords

Buddhas

atoms

man

Agnishvattas

Agnisuryans

Agnichaitans

elementals of several varieties.

Sephiroths

[sounds like] Gandarvas

Egoic Groups

Christ

Cosmic Christ

 

Alpha:   So, we listed all these entities, not by any means the totality of what we might think but enough to get us started.  And be began to think whether to put them on planes or not.  But, we decided instead to define in brief ways the Solar Logos, the Three Lords of Aspect and the Seven Heavenly Men. 

When we reached the Seven Heavenly Men and the forty-nine Regents of the Chains we began to discuss the matter of schemes, rounds, globes and chains.  And we were interested in the development of these different systems and it occurred to us that there were solar schemes just the way there are planetary schemes.  And in the solar scheme the solar system would merely be a globe.  And there would be six additional solar chains in the solar scheme of which our sun and its six subjective globes would be just one chain.  And then we started to talk about the movement of development.  And it began to occur to the group that instead of strictly sequentially method of development, whether in the globes or the chains or the schemes, it might be a whole lot more like the chakra system.  And in the human chakra system different chakras unfold at different rates of speed.  And the higher chakras unfold much later than all the others, even though they are alive and well.  So we began to look at rounds, or the correspondences to rounds, as the means of promoting the unfoldment of the planetary chains (which are chakras) and the planetary schemes (which are chakras) and instead of thinking that everything proceeds in a nice sequential manner globe after globe after globe, and round after round, we began to think that it may be occurring in a much more interactive sense than purely diagrammatic sequential method.

After all, how do the chakras in a human being unfold?  They unfold in a manner which takes into consideration the science of triangles and the different rays of the monad and maybe the rays of the soul.  They proceed in their own unique manner.  And maybe within a globe system, maybe within a chain system, maybe within a solar chain they proceed in the same manner.  So we decided that we would begin to discuss the unfoldment of the human chakra system, (looking at the) various petals of the human chakras in relation to the twelve petalled etheric chakra on the top of the head, and in relation to the egoic lotus (because each of those is a zodiac). 

Then attention was drawn to page 47 of Esoteric Astrology where the Tibetan talks about energy globes from a group of twelves: “a. The egoic twelve petalled egoic lotus on the cosmic mental plane."  … and that is pretty interesting, by the way calling it a twelve petalled lotus because we noticed earlier from a different reference that Beta read out to us that it was seven tiers of petals, apparently, in the egoic lotus. So, we need the Cosmic Fire reference there as well. I can’t think of where that was particularly (maybe page 1164, possibly, maybe we can find that later).  But that is a very important point because it is apparently a contradiction.  Anyway ...

a)   The egoic twelve petalled egoic lotus on the cosmic mental plane.

b)  The solar twelve petalled lotus.  Now that means we are probably dealing with the solar system viewed as a twelve petalled lotus.  And that may be corresponding (who knows) to the etheric centre at the top of the head.  I am not sure.  Then...

c)   The planetary logoic heart ...also a twelve petalled lotus.  We are going to discuss this.....

d)  The twelve petalled  human egoic lotus on the mental plane and

e)   The twelve petalled heart centre in a human being. 

 

The planetary logoic heart may well be a  hierarchy or a spiritual hierarchy of some kind.  So our plan of attack now is to somehow discuss the unevenness and the unfoldment of the chakras in the human system and then try to compare it with something like the chakras in the solar system which are represented by the different planets.

                We have, also, as a group, to try to give our impressions of which planets are which chakras in our present solar system.  And in this way we thought we could tie together the whole concept of laya yoga, chakralogy, cosmic structure, and the interactions between the different entities that we have on the board. 

                So, I think that takes us, in terms of a summary, to where we are in terms of the developments of this morning’s work.

Delta:   The reference on page 1161 on Cosmic Fire, where the seven tiers of petals are mentioned.

Alpha:   OK.   And if we look at a logoic twelve petalled egoic lotus on the cosmic mental plane, and yet somehow we have seven tiers of petals, we have problems.  We have serious problems, conceptually, because there is no way to get seven tiers of petals and fit that into a twelve petalled lotus.  So there must be an explanation somehow. Unless we are not talking about the same lotus. What do you think? If we look at page 1161 of The Treatise on Cosmic Fire, it looks like the same lotus on the cosmic mental plane?

Delta:   It might be a different lotus on the cosmic plane.

Alpha:   “A solar Logos uses for His energy centres the planetary schemes, each of which embodies a peculiar type of energy, and each of which, therefore, vibrates to the key of the logoic solar Angel, of which the human solar Angel is a dim reflection. It is interesting here to note that as the human solar Angel is a unity, manifesting through three tiers of petals, the logoic correspondence is even more interesting, for that great cosmic Entity demonstrates on the cosmic mental plane as a triple flame working through seven tiers of petals, and it is the energy from these seven circles of energy which pulsates through the medium of any scheme.”

Now, this is profound and I suggest that Shamballa comes out of this entity.  In other words I suggest that Shamballa is a Will centre on our planet.  But the number of Shamballa is 24.  And I suggest that there is a strong possibility here with seven tiers (let’s assume maybe of three petals each, ok, lets just assume that) plus the triple flame, the number is also 24.  And we know that Shamballa is formed in relation to the sun.  And this is the egoic body of the sun.  I don’t know if there is a jewel there or not.  If there is the number is 25, which is also interesting because 25, according to SDP, is the number of our solar system, then it’s the number of the second ray, 25, somewhere.  OK.  But there is a real interesting statement here. 

“A solar Logos uses for His energy centres the planetary schemes, each of which embodies a peculiar type of energy, and each of which, therefore, vibrates to the key of the logoic solar Angel”

That means each chakra in the human system vibrates to the key of the solar angel.  I am taking it down onto the microcosmic correspondence. 

Epsilon:   Alpha, is it appropriate to explain why 25 is the number of ray 2?

Alpha:  I can’t remember how he did it, frankly, but was a straightforward explanation and it showed how it was connected somehow to the number four and how, because of the 25 it related to … the hierarchical conclave four times in a century.  As a matter of fact I have SDP’s sample book here and if anybody is interested they can check that out.  It is on one of these tables here.  

… Look (referrring to SDP’s work) 2.5 is connected with the number of the fourth ray.  And the assumption is that our solar system, being a solar system of the fourth order, is peculiarly connected with the number four and maybe even rules the .... well this is system that is offered here.  Our solar system, according to this, is supposed to be number four of the seven solar systems.  And hence 2.5 is the number of it.  And he explains that there are cycles of two hundred and fifty years, twenty-five hundred year, etc.  like that, and even the whole idea of our solar system revolving around the Pleiades once every two hundred and fifty thousand years, that we have a great age of twenty-five thousand years,...and even roughly our processional years are twenty-one hundred and sixty (whatever). He is correlating this with the number 25.

Gamma:   This would be almost the cycle of the monad.

Alpha:   Exactly.  Exactly.  And the monad is that which has its place within the sun, has its home within the sun.  (Initiation Human and Solar).  So that if the monad has its home within the sun, it is connected with the number four, twenty-five, and so forth, the monad … would have therefore the cycle which corresponded to two hundred and fifty thousand or some kind of multiple by 10 of 25.  OK, so now, here we are at the point where we want to relate the unfoldment of our chakra system. … to try to understand enough about that and its timing so that we can relate it to some larger systems which involve astrological factors.

Gamma:   You know I was thinking about the ____ …  You know that our system is made of  the previous solar system.  So, which means that the previous solar system was also a globe which was in the physical.  How do you go with this thing here?

Alpha:   U-haa.  So that is going to be an entirely different manifestation of a different solar chain.  In other words you would say, it preceded our solar system; therefore it was the preceding chain so it should be part of the same solar scheme.

Gamma:   Oh yeah the preceding chain ...

Alpha:   ... but I am looking at wiping the whole thing out ...

Gamma:   ... the preceding globe?

Alpha:   .... the preceding glob, like the moon? … Well, what I am trying to say, as the moon chain is to our chain, the Tibetan has says that there is a kind of remnant of the third solar system hanging around, that that its matter is concentrated in Saturn and it is in a sense a solar systemic moon.  So, in other words, it is to the solar system as the moon is to our chain.  And he says that matter is concentrated in Saturn (the influences) ...

Gamma:   He is not talking about this matter here?

Alpha:   Yeah.  But it is something similar to that.  All we have to do is look up the word moon and we have got it.  You know.  Moon, mystery of, revolution of,

Delta:   Pause ...?

Alpha:   Pause.

(tape pause)

Alpha:   ...  let’s do it, page 1112.  “There is the energy reaching directly to the knowledge petals from the manasic permanent atom. The permanent atoms of the Spiritual Triad, as well as the bodies which are built around them, bring in certain groups of deva lives which have not as yet been much considered.”

Yeah, we said that, didn’t we?  We said there is hardly any consideration of deva lives connected with the triad.

“They are not the lunar pitris, as that term is commonly understood, but have a direct connection with what is called "the cosmic moon" or to that dying solar system which has the same relation to our system as the moon has to the earth chain. This "cosmic moon" transmits its energy to the manasic atomic subplane, via the planet Saturn. It is a triple energy and there is an esoteric connection between this triple energy, and Saturn's rings The old Commentary expresses this truth about an interesting group of sons of manas as follows:”

Well, I don’t know if we need to get into this just as the moment. But there is some place, isn’t there, where it talks about the concentration of the remnant matter of the first solar system as related to Saturn?

Beta:   Related to Saturn?  I am not sure it is related to Saturn.  I think it is just before one of these charts ...just after the right hand side of one of these charts. Maybe ...  something on 845. 

Alpha:   What does it say.

Beta:   “It might here be noted that the planetary Entity is the sumtotal of all the elemental lives of the lesser Builders functioning as, or forming, the substance of any particular globe in physical objectivity. The mystery of the whole subject lies hidden in three things:

First, the fact that our three planes, physical, astral, and mental, form the dense body of the solar Logos, and are therefore not considered as forming principles.

The second fact is that the lesser "lives" or the elemental essence are the "refuse" of an earlier system, and react to inherent impulses so powerfully that it was only possible to control them through the dynamic will of the Logos, consciously applied.  [.....skips a few lines and resumes]  These "lives" have been gradually drawn in during the entire manvantara as it became safe......”

Then it mentioned that the lunar Pitris in the twelve evolutions   (.....the twelve evolutions are after all the twelve types of energy).

Alpha:   Well, that is not the reference that I was thinking of, but there is something about what is concentrated within Saturn.  And it is not only that Saturn is the transmitter, “transmits this energy to the manasic atomic subplane via Saturn”.  It is real interesting that it is a triple energy. 

Beta:  Is it … is the seventh ray there too?

Alpha:   I don’t recall that.  But, maybe.  It seems to me that Saturn has a lot to do with concentrating refuse of the previous solar system. 

… You know what is really interesting is that the spiritual triad is a personality.  That is energy from Saturn and from the dying moon is a triple energy.  So you almost begin to think that the Spiritual Triad which had its highest permanent atom on Saturn’s plane, the atmic plane, and that somehow that triple energy is involved with the personality aspect of the monad.  You know what I am saying, that we have learned here that there is a transmission of energy through Saturn and it is a triple stream and that it affects the Spiritual Triad.  So it seems to me that because the triad is a personality, and Saturn is connected with the personality, that Saturn is transmitting that energy to the triad, because the triad is essentially, in terns of the monad, just a material thing. 

Alpha:   OK.   … If  there is anything more about the cosmic moon, ah did it say cosmic moon or is that one of those things that just hit me?  Is it cosmic moon?

Gamma:   It is in the reference. 

Beta:   Yeah.  1120.

Alpha:   Yeah, but it is in the references?  I mean, he is saying that? … I found the cosmic moon on 1112.  But I want to find this other reference to Saturn, which I think is very important (unless I am just making it up;   you know that can sometimes happen too, but I don’t think so.)  .... “transmits its energy to the manasic” via the planet Saturn.   No, it was a different statement.  OK.  let’s look at this:  (continues with the Old Commentary on page 1112.)  "These Sons of mind clung to the old and dying form, and refused to leave their Mother. They chose to pass into dissolution with her, but a younger son (Saturn) sought to rescue his brothers, and to this end he built a triple bridge between the old and new.”

Hence, this is why you call the antahkarana connected with Saturn.  “… he built a triple bridge between the old and new. This bridge persists, and forms a path whereon escape is possible. Some escaped and came to the help of the incarnating Sons of Mind who had left the Mother for the Father. The greater gulf was bridged. The lesser gulf persisted, and must be bridged by the living Sons of Mind themselves."  So Saturn seems here to be connected with the higher antahkarana. 

Gamma:   Who is this that left the mother for the father?

Alpha:   In other words, Saturn is connected with the triad which in a way is considered a bridge.  A bridge from the monad to something else.

Beta:   Well, the higher antahkarana is the antahkarana connecting the three permanent atoms of the triad and not the three lower.  That is only in the sense of synthesis associated with the lower antahkarana, between the mental unit, the causal body and the manasic permanent atom.  … And then the higher is triad between the three permanent atoms of the triad.

Alpha:   And the triad is a bridge.  It is a bridge between periodical vehicles. 

Beta:   Yes. It is associated with the sutratma.  … whereas the lower is usually associated with antahkarana, but they take place simultaneously to a certain extent.  It is just that, you know the higher focus, the higher polarisations of the duplicity … its a process … that the higher polarisation takes time to achieve its higher focus through the sutratma.  There is a point at the third stage of the sutratma where the sutratma and antahkarana are working together and then later they work as a unit.  And later on either its called the sutratma,  or at least it has been in the past …

Alpha:   You know it is interesting, that Saturn-Jupiter conjunction that we saw last night in Alice Bailey’s chart, Jupiter in relation to Gemini gives a higher synthesis you know, in other words, it’s the union of Monad and the soul. I forget how he said it exactly, anyway it is involved with the higher synthesis and Saturn here seems to be ruling the higher aspect of the antahkarana or at least the triad considered as an aspect of the sutratma, by connection.  And the two together are a bridge.

Beta:   And its at this stage it becomes sort of planetary in nature too, to a certain extent.  Or is a connecting link of some sort.  It may not be the planetary antahkarana, the group antahkarana is built in the sixth subplane

Alpha:   OK.   Well every one of those statements requires a whole investigation.  A whole investigation.  Alright, so, we had come to the point that we were asking what it is about the human energy system which we can say, in terms of its development/unfoldment through time that will tell us how the twelve petalled centre on top of the head unfolds considering it to be a miniature zodiac which is the reflection of the still greater zodiac which is the egoic lotus.  So basically, we know something about the egoic petals, we read about them yesterday, and when they unfold and what goes on.  We know that the twelve petalled head centre on the top of the head (page 168 or whatever it is in Cosmic Fire)  should unfold in relationship to the twelve petals above, right?  In other words there is an unfolding, every chakra unfolds, right?  Well, no that is a question.  Do all chakras that have petals – is a chakra different from a lotus?  Ah, a chakra has a requisite number of petals but the way you tell about its unfoldment is its degree of activation, not that the petals unfold one after another.  … their degree of activation tells you something about their state of development.  But the egoic lotus is different because there is an unfoldment and an activation.

Gamma:   Um-hmm.  I just want to check something about the centres and it is quite accurate ... what characterises the advancement of a centre is through the jewel, which is at the centre which becomes more and more active.  (I think it was in White Magic.)

Beta:   It sounds like the kindling of the centres, but that must be higher stage I think.

Alpha:   Well, suppose there are three aspects to the centres … and they are enlivened at different times.  But the enlivenment of the centres corresponds to the unfolding of the egoic lotus.  Now if we can get the connection between when the centres unfold in terms of the third aspect, second aspect and first aspect, we may we able to connect that with the unfolding of the egoic lotus.

Beta:   We are only concerned more or less then with the heart centre?  And with the heart that centres the heart, the triad.

Alpha:   Well, we want to discover the function of the different planetary schemes in a solar system ...

Beta:   We will have to look at it in more detail than I have.

Alpha:   … said from the other end, the development of the centres.

Gamma:   He gives an idea of the development of the centres in the system … but he never talks about the unfoldment of petals.

Alpha:   No, not about the unfoldment of petals.  Yeah, impossible to discuss this aspect of the unfolding of the centres, that previous to this it was not at all possible, but [we] want to find out if we can make some generalisations about the chakra system that are going to help us get into the higher system.  Is that possible?  Now, for instance Gamma, from your tabulation, what can we say about the unfoldment of the base of the spine, sacral centre and solar plexus centre.

Epsilon:   Centre and chakra are synonymous.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Let’s say they are synonymous.  In other words, let me just start with some statements that may or may not be correct. 

Gamma:   In Letters on Occult Meditation, (page 74, he divides the development of the centres in five periods in this particular case.)  And he said:

“Period I: wherein the base of the spine is most active in a purely rotary sense and not in a fourth dimensional.  The inner fire is focused on the vivification of the organs of generation and on the functional physical life of personality.

 Period II—wherein the solar plexus is the goal of the attention of the fire and when the emotional counterpart vibrates synchronously.  Two centres are thus vibrating, even though the measure be slow; the others are alive; pulsation can be seen, but there is no circular movement.   

Period III—The divine fire now mounts to the heart centre and the three rotate in ordered measured unison.  I would point out that the vivification of any one centre causes an accession of force in all...”

Alpha:   Now, that is interesting because it relates to our higher centres.   In other words ...every time we think about a human being, let’s think about what it might mean in the higher centres that we are somewhat aware of.  OK.  Continue ...

Gamma:  

“I would point out that the vivification of any one centre causes an accession of force in all, and I would further point out that in the head are seven centres (three major and four minor) and that these centres directly correspond to one or other centre in the body.  They are the synthesis, and, on the assimilation of their corresponding centre, receive themselves a corresponding acquisition of rotary power.

Period IV—marks the definite stimulation of the throat centre.  All the creative activity of the three-fold man—physical, emotional and mental—is turned upward in service, and his life begins occultly begins to sound.  [ ... skips a bit ... ] Co-ordination between the centres becomes apparent; rotation is intensified, and the centres themselves change in appearance  ...”

Beta:   At which stage?   After the throat?

Gamma:   ... at the throat, yes.

                “ ... becoming unfolded, and the rotary movement becomes fourth-dimensional, turning inward upon itself.”

So there is an unfolding, in rotation, and the four dimension ...

Alpha:   … unfolding, rotating, and four dimensions.

Gamma:  

“The centres are then radiating nuclei of light, and the corresponding four lower head centres are equally alive.”

“Period V—marks the application of the fire to the head centres and their complete awakening.”

Beta:   Yeah that is a great section … This really corresponds to the solar plexus shifting to the heart, the sacral to the throat.  This sort of implies that very sequence, the base to the head.  … So this transference of energies happens in this five fold stage which is quite fascinating.  And its quite different.  The sacral isn’t mentioned because it is quite implicit in the throat.  And the head is identified at the very end. … But, because the base was so active at the beginning ...

Gamma:   You know (perhaps in the description of the evolution of the centres), he says, at one time all the centres are raised into the plexus and the plexus is the clearing house, and then the plexus is raised to the head.  And that seems to be following this scheme.

Beta:   Yeah.  Exactly.  It is quite fascinating.  I think I have always sensed that (I don’t know where I get this), I always feel like the solar plexus has a higher mission, probably because of its association with Neptune and also that Mars is involved at very high stages of initiation.  The solar plexus is somehow used differently from a very high point.  And it may be to do with Alta Major, or the head centres or something like this. 

Gamma:   And the intriguing  point is that it has the number ten, you know.  There is the number of perfection so I wonder if this is not only perfection of the animal kingdom but perhaps another type of perfection which is higher. 

Beta:   The mystery of the Kumaras.  The mystery of the Kumara and Makara.   Perhaps. 

Gamma:   That was the mystery of the crocodiles? … the solar plexus …

Alpha:   That fits ... the personality.

Beta:   Someone has said ‘occult’ in a blind, the upward pointing green triangle takes over the downward pointing red triangle.  (That was out of the TS Schools.) … it is a blind ... we know the solar plexus has ten petals.  … so they would never say that, explicitly. 

Delta:   It might be stylised with ... the interlaced double triangles in the centre of it though. 

Epsilon:   Alpha, could we summarise what happened, with Gamma’s reading ... and what ... ?

Alpha:   We are starting now to look at the manner in which the human chakras unfold in time.  What are their stages of evolution in which they  unfold.  And then we are going to try to connect that pattern of unfoldment with the pattern of unfoldment of the solar systemic chakras which are planets.  And then if we are successful there we might be able to venture into less known areas such as the unfoldment of chains and the unfoldment of globes which are also chakras.

Epsilon:   So what did we learn so far?

Alpha:   We learned, with Gamma’s reading from the Letters on Occult Meditation that ‘a’ sequence of unfoldment .... See it is very important that we get this sequence of unfoldment in a generic sense.  Not that we can get it totally accurately, but we need to know approximately what unfolds when because then we can … look at the solar system and say what planets can be activated when. 

Now, something flashed in my mind for just a second.  And it is simply this.  Right now, all planets are chains.  Is this correct?  ... planets are chakras, and chakras are centres within a scheme that involves our sun in the position of Planetary Logos.  In other words, a planet is to a chain as our sun is to the planetary schemes.  Correct?

Beta:   Well, this is very difficult.  They are not being included technically.  But they must be there in the body of the entity. 

Alpha:   OK.   Well, he virtually said that there ten schemes within a solar system.  However I am calling a solar system ...

Beta:   ...if we added all the planets plus the invisible planets that would be too many.

Alpha:   OK.   Well, wait a second.  Maybe and maybe not.  Because what I want to get at is the following  We know that earth is in its fourth chain ...

Where is that chart, page 693 of Esoteric Astrology.  And, I want to make a point based upon our mornings discussion.  … Earth is in its fourth chain, fourth globe.  Jupiter is third chain, fourth globe.  Saturn is third chain fourth globe.  Mars fourth chain, fourth globe ... just like Earth.  Vulcan is third chain, fourth globe ... hence it is physical.  Venus is fifth chain, fifth globe.  And Mercury is fourth chain, fifth globe. 

                Earth                       4th Chain                               4th Globe

                Jupiter                    3rd Chain                               4th Globe

                Saturn                    3rd Chain                               4th Globe

                Mars                       4th Chain                               4th Globe

                Vulcan                    3rd Chain                               4th Globe

                Venus                     5th Chain                               5th Globe

                Mercury                 4th Chain                               5th Globe

 

                Now what are the implications of the fact that simultaneously, all of these planets, all of these planetary schemes, which are chains (a planetary scheme is a chain), what is the implication if we know that all of them are active at the same time?  There is a big question in people’s minds if when they look at the Earth scheme (here is our Earth scheme with these chains) and they say, “Ah where is the Earth chain?”  Are all the chains active, or just us?  Now transpose that up an octave and take a look at our solar system as if it was simply a scheme with chains.  And  the planets are the chains.  Right?  And all the planets are active.  They are active at different points of chains and rounds and so forth. 

Gamma:   Not only that but they have a physical body. 

Alpha:   Yeah, but that is a problem.  That is a big problem.  … Now, this is very interesting, because when you look at ... first of all forget Neptune; its out, Uranus is out …  Why? 

Beta:   Well ... yeah.

Alpha:   ... but notice that some of the fancy planets, Jupiter, Saturn and Vulcan, which are very sacred, are only in their third chain.  And .... now Venus is this huge exception. Maybe we can talk about why that is so. 

                OK, you know what I am driving at here?  ... that the different chakras unfold at different times.  The lower chakras unfold faster and they should be more developed.  Now, I am asking, Do the lower planets unfold faster? And should they be more developed than the higher planets?

Beta:   You mean the triplicity as a principle from the higher planets.

Alpha:   I am saying that the higher planets are farther in their unfoldment because the head centre and heart centre of the  human being are farther behind in their development.  Now, this tells us something about our solar god, and how far these chains are unfolded and how busy they are, and where they have progressed to tells us how far our solar god is. 

Gamma:   When you talk about the lower planets are they necessarily the lower chakras?

Alpha:    I think so.    But, now we could get into the very interesting sort of astral cosmological issue of what are the chakras in our solar system 

Beta:   This is very important to some extent.  Because each of the planets and schemes will  probably be associated with one of the principles and one of the higher vehicles, say the astral or the mental vehicle, or buddhic.  So, a simile would be the human constitution ... when they begin all these considerable amount of tabulations on the chakras and the stages of development, she may be speaking probably the closest to the human, but then in others she may be talking about mental ethers mixed with astral ethers and the physical. (This was in LOM page 74.  I mean there is a tabulation on 169 of Cosmic Fire, which talks about the chakra and the triangles that are active in each stage. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  That is very important. 

Beta:   I’ve always focused on that, but only recently I have looked at LOM and become excited about that.  I think maybe because there is more synthesis there.  It is a very hard to tell in tabulating chakras also I’ve found the difficulty of finding citations for the astral chakras, there are for the physical but not …

Alpha:   ... the mental

Beta:    Not ...no.  Queer!  Except by implication.

Alpha:   What page, 860, recall that reference the other day to the twelve petals on the different tiers.

Beta:   Yeah.  And there is one tabulation I just ran into right now which is on the structure of the centres … its 159, the structure of the centres in rotary motion.  And this is what we discussed in terms of associating the centres with either rotary motion, spiral-cyclic, or forward  of the jewel.

Alpha:   This is like the LOM page 74, like that.

Beta:   Right.  There is another one in Telepathy, a very exhaustive one.  ... it may be spiral-cyclic, I haven’t looked at it in this frame of reference.  Ah ... spiral cyclic, or forward, or maybe it mentions all three.  I think actually it mentions all three.  But those properties of the chakras need to be distinguished because then they will give us a clue to what level the planet is in the planetary or the solar constitution.  There may be a tabulation based on our planets polar opposite and then another one on our planet’s complement. 

Alpha:   I think the polar opposite is Venus and the complement is Mars. 

Beta:    I agree with the first.  The second I have questions about still.

Alpha:   OK.  Well, he talks about our planet’s polar opposite, blah, bah blah … we are not saying, and then ten pages later, it says Earth, Venus and Mars. 

Beta:   That is one of the most fascinating triangles, Earth, Venus and Mars.  What on earth does he mean by the planets on either side of the Earth? …

 

(end of tape ... side 7B was blank)

Tape Eight Begins

 

Epsilon:  ... we go on with the unfoldment of Chakras.

Beta:  One of the things that, when I was trying to think of the names for the Planetary Logos, you know the Planetary Logos is focused on the cosmic mental plane, at least, and probably the cosmic monadic.  ....but giving the Planetary Logos names on  the solar plane, I still have a lot of questions in the second and third planes, the monadic and atmic plane, whether the Spirits Before the Throne fall into the second, or the Ray Lords on the third, or visa versa.  But here is another cite on 152 which says the seven rays are regarded as the seven veiling forms of the spirits.  But, since the Planetary Logos is on the cosmic planes as well, is much more focused on the cosmic planes as a soul, and in terms of its own development, each of these citations have to be examined as to whether they refer to a physical phenomenon, like the rays artificially regarded as the seven veiling forms of the Spirits before the Throne, or does this mean the seven rays are ultimately veiling forms for the spirits?

Alpha:   Well, the seven rays cannot be that low in the development.

Beta:   But if they doubled as solar prana they would be.

Alpha:   What do you mean by solar prana.

Beta:   That is a good question because they could be associated with the Planetary Logoi in the second plane, where the pranas … or the ray lords hit the physical plane ether, in the second ether.  And also it has to do with etheric and pranic attachment to the higher vehicles. But we have to ask on what subplanes are the deva raja lords focused since they are almost undoubtedly associated with the cosmic astral, or mental.

Alpha:   But they are focused  bodily on their own cosmic subplane.  Like Varuna is manifesting as the Raja Lord of our systemic astral plane.  Although it is saying.

Beta:   Right.  But you are saying ‘its life’ and in the (inaudible) the Deva Raja Lords organise the substance of our solar systemic plane.  … They have to be on a higher level.  They have to be on the cosmic astral or mental.

Alpha:   And do you think they also have causal bodies and monads?  They certainly have monads. 

Beta:   Oh.  I think they are certainly evolutionary.  And I don’t know how many permanent atoms they have or any of the details about them (its a bit more obscure for me), but I know they form part of the mental unit of the solar logos.   So that means that ... (inaudible) associated with the permanent atoms. … They are associated (I don’t know how closely) or, if they live there I think their consciousness is probably focused there and they’re probably subject to Lord Agni, in a sense.

Alpha:   And Lord Agni himself though is considered to be manifesting (bodily) as our systemic mental plane, but is the life of the cosmic mental plane?

Beta:   Right.  All the aspects of the personality below the causal body .... of the Solar Logos.  And also all the aspects of the causal body, in a sense, below the soul itself, that would include the permanent atoms as well. 

Alpha:   OK.   Well that is another subject, the whole question of the Raja Lords.  They are on our entity list and where they are manifesting and where they are polarised and where they are originating is a fascinating question, but ...

Beta:   ... that’s why I was saying that if you look at Ray Lords you have to ask what relationship do the Ray Lords have in terms of a planetary lord, or either Planetary Logos or Heavenly Men are down lower, or very high.  What relationship do they have to the Deva Raja Plane, who rule our solar planes.

Alpha:   It seems to me that Ray Lords are related to the second aspect particularly.  In other words, I infer this because all the second ray souls ... The second ray souls study particularly the seven rays, that is their method.

Beta:   They are a pranic energy coming in to the second plane of the seven planes, ah ...

Alpha:   They are monadic, they touch the monadic, our monadic plane.

Beta:   Right, they may have correspondences on the atomic level of all the seven solar planes but they are not the entities responsible for organising the material which are probably lower entities.  And these are quality second logos as ethers that are coming in ...  So this is another argument that ether is not just meant as a physical or etheric energy, but perhaps as a mental or etheric subplane of one of the other. 

Alpha:   Maybe.

Beta:   We know the hierarchy organises the five planes of the monad, and the three higher and the etheric or the three highest subplanes of the atmic.

Alpha:   But the five planes of monad are the three higher subplanes. Oh!  The three higher subplanes of the atmic, I got it.  This is what Robert Gerard used to say, he used to somehow equate the three higher subplanes of the atmic to the three higher subplanes of the mental. 

Beta:   Yeah.  But there is this real direct citation that says that the hierarchy organises from that plane, from those ethers, like our ego organises our soul being.

Alpha:   And there is even some discussion that the three higher subplanes of the monadic plane are terribly important as well. 

Beta:   That is where our monads are as well. 

Delta:   Can I slightly shift the subject to one tangential thing. Page 152, b, it says the seven planes rotate latitudinally and the seven rays longitudinally.  I can see just in terms of the fifth ray empirical cycles, I can certainly see the rays rotated longitudinally, you know … Jupiter having a twelve year cycle and so forth.  So do we infer from this also the planes can be, once we decide on the rulerships between ... ummm. … [If we] study cycles of heliocentric latitude, we will understand the way the planes cycle in and out. 

Beta:   I think that certainly would be symbolically analogous, an analogy is not a correspondence, I think that certainly when you think of the magnetic system of the Earth, the aurora borealis pours down from the north pole and there are various other factors that give us latitudinal movement.  It would be a great, an incredible study!

Gamma:   (inaudible) ... anything about these planes rotating from east to west and the vehicle north to south.

Delta:   He is just simply saying that everything is present all at once so that there is no way you can assign any direction to anything … but, in other words the four maharajas of the four parts North, South, East and West, the solstice and equinox points.

Alpha:   Well, wait a second ... the rotation from east to west ... after all planes are spheres ... So they are spheres of material interpenetrating. I think he is saying that they rotate along their equators, so to speak, whereas the rays are rotating along their axis.

Epsilon:   It is page 152.

Alpha:   Yeah  ...yeah.  Then he goes on to confuse that.

Beta:   And if he uses the image of a plane fixed, say a latitude, then it could be a disc that rotates east to west.

Alpha:   ... (inaudible) the planes are rotating this way when he says east to west.  Doesn’t it?  I mean, this way.  And does it not seem that the rays are rotating in this manner. 

Delta:   They are at right angles to each other.

Alpha:   They are, but the word longitudinally and latatidunally used to confuse me until he clarified it, east to west and north to south. 

Gamma:   ... the Earth is rotating west to east.

Alpha:   … the Earth is rotating west to east.  And the planes east to west.

Beta:   Right.  How about atmospherically?

Gamma:   What is friction. 

Alpha:   Well, but no, that is very interesting. 

Beta:   That’s in the law of friction, yeah.

Alpha:   But Kshiti is the  ruler of the etheric plane.  The plane lords or the planes are rotating east to west which means that the ethers are rotating counterwise to the dense material. 

Beta:   Right.  And it involves fire by friction.

Alpha:   But that is an interesting thought isn’t it.  That the Earth is rotating west to east but the ethers which are still part of the physical plane and hence, you know, of the plane, are rotating east to west.  …

Beta:   ... that could be internally too and associated with the magma or the mantel.  Maybe a magnetic effect.

Gamma:   … even if it is a magma it is five or ten times more stronger than steel in terms of … so it has movement, but they are very slow, one or two meters a year, something like that. … the whole thing turns as a unit.  And the magnetic field as ... as the matter itself. …

[deleted some technical banter.]

Delta:   So getting back to the triangles listed on page 169-170.  To me this is far too short a list and in a way it is a joke.  He talks about the prana triangle so that is always going to be in effect.  ... and then the last triangle, number six, spiritual man to fifth initiation. On 170, he says:

a.  The heart.
b.  The seven head centres.
c.  The two many-petalled lotuses

On page 178 in Cosmic Fire he says the following, top paragraph, about the sixth triangle on page 170:  “It covers the totality of time remaining in the one hundred years of Brahma, or the remainder of the process of manifestation.”

So to me this list becomes a joke. … It is just too simplistic.

Beta:   But it says something fantastic about the fivefold evolution of humanity under the five planes under the monad.  And that relates ...

Gamma:   There is one thing which is very important.  One of the centres is always the heart. We should take this into consideration when we look at co-operation between the solar chains or solar (inaudible) ....

Epsilon:   And is there something more at page 183 about this.

Alpha:   Something is very very strange about this statement that it covers ...

Epsilon:  “The sevenfold head centre in its turn finds ultimate expression in the gorgeous twofold centre above the top of the head and surrounding it.”

Alpha: “The sevenfold head centre in its turn finds ultimate expression in the gorgeous twofold centre above the top of the head and surrounding it.”  Isn’t the two fold centre the twelve and the nine-sixty?

Beta:   ... could be, I mean that is the only way you could interpret this sort of traditionally.  Otherwise it would be unusual. … its right at the centre of the thousand petalled lotus and the twelve petals in the centre …

Alpha:   Just one thing, to connect this with what has just been said here.  Is, on page 170, “the two many petalled lotuses”, point c, the same as the gorgeous two-fold centre above the top of the head?  Is that something else or is it the ajna centre and the head centre, the crown centre considered as a whole.  Or is it really something else? 

Beta:   And the Alta major is mentioned in number four, I guess.

Alpha:   Yeah, the alta centre.  But the ajna centre is never mentioned.  Is that a many petalled lotus?  In other words are we ...

Beta:   It most certainly is.

Alpha:   It is ... two, many-petalled lotuses, the seven head centres. So the seven head centres are different?

Beta:   So this must be etherically, because then that would explain why the ajna comes in near the end as fully developed.

Epsilon:   I don’t think it is ajna because it always goes from lower to higher, see?  Heart, throat, head … heart, throat, seven head centres.

Beta:   Yeah but the ajna centre is not mentioned anywhere else through all of this.

Epsilon:   ... so heart centre, head centre and two many petalled lotus. I don’t think it is ajna.

Beta:   But the seven head centres is not the thousand petalled lotus.

Epsilon:   No, but I think what he speaks about, page 183, when he says  “... in the gorgeous twofold centre above the top of the head” ... and that gorgeous twofold head centre above the top of the head is the two many petalled lotuses he mentioned at the (c).  

Alpha:   But, say one of the lotuses is not many petalled?  It is just twelve.  That is not many.  It is twelve within 960.

Epsilon:   But you say twelve and 960.  It is many petalled, 960.

Alpha:   I am just wondering if he is hinting at some sort of subtle etheric anatomy that he has never talked about.

Beta:   But, if at a certain stage the shoulder chakra become involved, then it would make sense the ajna would blend with the thousand petalled lotus in a very extraordinary way. 

Alpha:   Well, if the number of petals within a chakra tells you its power. In other words, here is the old question: Is the throat centre with sixteen really more powerful than the heart centre with twelve? Even though in our bias its not, because it is third aspect verses second aspect. But, is the ajna with ninety-six plus two really the second most powerful centre within the system?  Regardless of the fact is associated with the personality on the lower level and all the rest of it.  Is it not the second most powerful centre?  Just because of number.

Delta:   Well, the control of our being, at first for the personality of uninvolved man, is the heart chakra. This is a quote in Esoteric Astrology somewhere towards the end ...

Alpha:   I do remember it.  There are different ways of interpreting it.

Delta:   The soul ...is the crown chakra, and the personality is the heart chakra.  It is somewhere in here. 

Beta:   That would be very interesting.  That might indicate a stage.

Delta:   Yeah, that is a less evolved stage, and so at that point the heart chakra is formed of just twelve petal and then later on the ajna chakra controls, which is ninety-six petals. 

Alpha:   Which is a multiple, you know it is 12 x 8.

Beta:   The usual sequence that I see: head, heart, ajna ... they interact in different ways.  The throat focalizes better than the ajna.

Alpha:   … the heart will transfer to the throat.

Beta:   Yeah ... then the alta major comes in.  A bit later, after the pranic triangle comes hyperactive … this is all very difficult material.  …

Gamma:   … I am wondering if it could not be a equivalent specific stage in time for a number of chakras in acceleration in time.  A number of petals in chakras  ... in acceleration in time.

Alpha:   Um-hmm.  In other words the more the petals the more rapidly they would tend to unfold because it is in a later stage of evolution when acceleration is ruling. … Well, that makes some degree of sense, I say.  But, the point is, is there a principle that the greater the number of petals the more advanced the chakra?

Delta:   Let’s table that for the moment.

Alpha:   Well, it is going to relate directly, you see.

Beta:   We have to make sure that we have the physical ethers separate from the astral or mental, or that we know consciously, technically what the relationship is between the ethers ...

Delta:   Well, I guess that would be the implication on page 60 in Cosmic Fire, that sentence on the significance of the four circles in the egoic lotus and the eight circles of twelve petals each in the etheric lotuses on the mental planes is of great importance.  So in other words, whichever chakra has the most petals is going to be controlling those … tiers of twelve.

Alpha:   OK.   Well.  So how shall we proceed with this?

Delta:   We talk about the heart centre, page 512 in Esoteric Astrology.  “In undeveloped man, the five non-sacred planets control, with the head and the heart centres under the rule of two sacred planets, which planets being determined by the rays of the soul and of the personality” 

So for the undeveloped man the soul controls the head centre and the heart controls the personality centre.  The ray of the heart is the personality ray, the ray of the head is the soul ray. 

Alpha:   OK.   So, in other words, most of what is said of the heart centre in Esoteric Healing relates it to far more than the personality.  And interestingly ....

Delta:   This is for undeveloped man though.  So this is someone who is really not on the path probably. 

Alpha:    And I guess what we have to remember again is the threefold aspect of every chakra.  That during the personality stage of life the outer aspect of the chakra controls.  During soul stage, the inner aspect and, then the jewel of each chakra during the spirit aspect.  So I guess we could make it work that way. 

                OK.   Now let’s see, if given all of this (which is almost endless) whether we can get a sense of the sequence of unfoldment of the chakras that is meaningful to us which we can somehow relate to the unfoldment of planets which will tell us something, which will give us keys.  I mean, you know, if I was to look right here on page 693 of Esoteric Astrology and I was to say that Vulcan, Saturn and Jupiter are not very unfolded relatively within our scheme, our solar scheme, or let’s call it a solar system, I would say that whatever chakra Vulcan represents, Saturn represents and Jupiter represents, for whatever reason are less developed than what these other planets represents.

Delta:   Not necessarily.  You see it talks about advanced egos coming in much later in evolution. … relative to humanity, it talks about advanced egos waiting until the time is right to come in so it might be these advanced planets intentionally wait until later, come in later in the evolution of solar system.  …  

Alpha:   But that is not the point.  It doesn’t mean they are less advanced.  It just means they are advanced beings who are coming in later in the developmental sequence. … That is all I mean.  That fits, you see.  Now the only question is each solar system is unique just like each human energy system is unique.  We are the second ray solar system so the big question is, look, Mars is pretty well advanced (I shouldn’t use the word advanced, I should mean ‘developed’, because advancing has nothing to do with this.  Advancement is the quality of the entity itself, whether it is sacred or non-sacred or synthetic.   OK.   ...that is advancement. … I am just using the word developed, or unfolded.  Mars is unfolded, Earth is unfolded, Mercury has unfolded and Venus has really unfolded.  Now there is a reason for believing that Venus correlates with the solar plexus centre of the Solar Logos, which would be very interesting, if I may say, because our Solar Logos is polarised upon the cosmic astral plane.

Gamma:   You know and part of that is at the egoic lotus, our egoic lotus, the plexus on the mental plane is linked to the heart centre on the astral plane and is linked to the plexus on the  ...

Alpha:   Well he is saying there is peculiar alternation, that mental solar plexus is linked to the heart centre on the astral plane and the solar plexus chakra on the physical plane.

Beta:   Right.  That is the great chart.

Alpha:   They alternate.  They alternate. … Solar plexus to heart to solar plexus to heart and so forth.  But, you see, getting to the idea that all depends on the kind of entity that you are dealing with.  If you are dealing with a second ray entity (remember what he said about unfolding the egoic lotus), for the love type of entity the knowledge petal will be first to unfold but the love petal will follow right away.  ... and then also for that type of being the knowledge petal would be the most difficult to unfold.  So I am trying to  look at this, and we have a huge hint here in the fact that Venus, which is a manasic planet and also a love planet, and is a plexus planet, I think ...

Delta:   Why, it could be the heart chakra of the solar system.

Alpha:   Or, it could be except you better watch out for Jupiter.  And there is a place elsewhere … where Venus has a place within the logoic quaternary. 

Delta:   The heart chakra is part of the lower four. 

Beta:   No ... it’s found on the three higher subplanes usually, the head, heart and throat on the three higher.  And then all the rest of the chakras on the fourth subplane.

Delta:   Well it won’t be the lower quaternary then.  The solar plexus ...

Alpha:   Is it sub-diaphragmatic? 

Beta:   Yeah.  well ...  it would be the standard four without the spleen, maybe.  Or you ...

Alpha:   Well the heart would be included in that.   You see the ...

Beta:   No, actually you know in that chart on the egoic lotus the heart is not included, the spleen is substituted.

Alpha:   That is true the heart is raised to a different level right?  In other words the heart is always raised to kind of a second ether position, right?

Beta:   Yeah, head-heart, for undeveloped people, are always ruled by a sacred planet, and all the other chakras by non-sacred (in Esoteric Astrology)

Alpha:   That is right.  No ... the heart is sometimes ruled by the sun (in Esoteric Astrology) hence, Sun—personality connection.

Delta:   Well, he does say somewhere in Esoteric Astrology that the third ray is the personality ruler for people who are taking initiation.  They are all under the third ray pretty much … or Saturn associated. 

Beta:   Venus holds place in the lower quaternary ... page 300 Cosmic Fire.  Let me mention this, Heavenly Men refers to the interaction of Buddhi and Manas in terms of the soul.  Manasaputra is more than mental.  But it can also be considered the soul.  But from the mental side.  But this quote mentions the Heavenly Men.  The Heavenly Men is composed of three types of lives, one making up the permanent atoms, one making up the petal substance, and one making up the three central buds.  The jewel is buddhi.  You could call the lives Manasadevas, Agnishvattas and Manasaputras … but ... I think the more technical name for them is maybe Solar Lord, Angels and pitris. 

Alpha:   OK  ... slow enough so we can catch it.

Beta:   So, the three solar pitris would be associated with the permanent atoms.  The solar angels would be petal substance.  And the solar lords the three bud petals.

Alpha:   OK  You are in the body of the Heavenly Man.  You are in the egoic [lotus or body] of the Planetary Logos right now?

Beta:   Right.  And the Heavenly Man is the soul aspect. 

Alpha:   And you are now mentioning what we normally call generically solar angels, and you are saying that solar pitris are permanent atoms within the egoic body of a Planetary Logos?

Beta:   Well they are fiery units of hosts of entities that form our egoic vehicles.  And we are ....and for most of average humanity we become solar pitris later in evolution  ....unless we.... you know ...transfer..

Alpha:   OK.  You see you make differentiations where normally they are not made.  You are saying solar pitris are the third aspect of the Heavenly Man?   (I just want to repeat so that we understand.)   That solar angels are the petal substance within the petals of a Heavenly Man … second aspect.  And Solar Lords are the three interior bud petals.

Beta:   Right, associated with Manasadevas, rather than the Agnishvattas.

Alpha:   Now what are Agnishvattas in this?

Beta:   Associated with the petals.  They actually form petals out of ahamkara … (they co-ordinate buddhi.)

Alpha:    So Agnishvattas are solar angels? 

Beta:   They are associated with solar angels.  I can’t figure out whether there are different terms used for different enquiries ... or if there are different terms because they are different entities.

Alpha:   I have always equated Agnishvattas and solar angels.

Beta:   Agnishvattas, probably the cosmic name; Solar angel is the solar name.  Manasadeva is a cosmic name.  I am pretty sure.

Alpha:   Well, what does that mean?

Beta:   The Manasadeva would be the solar lords as they relate to the cosmic level, in a planetary or solar constitution.  But the Solar Lord would be the name we use for humans, related to humans.  As the son, there would be sons of god, sons of wisdom, sons of mind ...

Alpha:   Sons of god ... sons of wisdom ... sons of mind.   And who would be this, solar lords, solar angels and solar pitris?  Sons of god ...sons of wisdom ...sons of mind.  And then you have a lower parallel here with three types of devas that compose the human etheric body ... and the human egoic lotus.

Beta:   Yeah, which would be their cosmic names, the Manasadevas, the Agnishvattas Pitris, and the Manasaputras … inherited from the previous solar system.

Alpha:   OK.   now ... we have just been in the causal body of a Heavenly Man.  Now my question was if we come down to the causal body of a man,what are the names of  the three orders of lives in the causal body of a man?

Beta:   For humans they have a cosmic set of names ...

Alpha:   Why should they if they are so low have a cosmic set?

Beta:   So that you can see how the human constitution fits into the planetary and solar.  And also they have lives of their own that are not related to the human hierarchy or human ...

Gamma:   What means that some of these entities are permanent atoms.  And those are gods for us, you know.  They are permanent atoms on a very high level. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  What is the difference between a lunar lord and a permanent atom? 

Beta:   Well, it’s true, the mystery of the lower five and the higher five, yeah. 

Alpha:   Well let’s make sure that we haven’t hit a dead end here.  … You started to give an exposition.  We haven’t stopped you otherwise we are not going to understand a thing.

Beta:   Right.  In the quotation from page 300, she introduces this little section on the progress of development of the Heavenly Men, which means the soul aspect.  Then she talks about Venus and Earth, and Venus and Earth are of course the soul and personality, and then she goes down and when she talks about the quaternary she says the Lord of Venus holds place in the lower quaternary and not the Angel of Venus or the Pitris of Venus  or the Heavenly Man of Venus or the Planetary Logos or the scheme, or anything like that.

Alpha:   Is it possible to over differentiate?

Beta:   You can.  I just wanted to make that point.  I don’t know if it is relevant or not.  You are right.  I only make that fine point for inquiry’s sake because it is so significant the Venus is placed in the logoic quaternary.  But if she says the logoic quaternary … just with this one sentence, it could be the higher quaternary.  But I think she actually goes on and says lower.  That is why everyone is surprised by that statement.

Alpha:   Well, the point is, Venus is not as advanced a being though it is farther developed than some of the superior planets.  And there is a peculiar reference in Esoteric Astrology which connects Earth with the etheric body.  So, I am just wondering whether Earth may hold a pranic place.  In other words, you have Venus—solar plexus; Earth—Spleen; Mars—sacral centre; and Pluto—base of the spine.  Now I know that there is another way to look at this where Earth is the base of the spine.

Beta:   In incarnation, perhaps.  By virtue of taking incarnation.

Alpha:   Un-haa.  The question is, in the logoic lower quaternary should we have any other planets than those that we just mentioned?

Delta:   Who did we mention?  Earth, Pluto, Venus and Mars.  Venus being the only sacred planet although Pluto is mentioned as a sacred planet.

 (many voices)

Alpha:   Pluto is mentioned as a sacred planet.  Can you tell me where that is?

Delta:   … it mentions the triangle of Leo-Pluto-and whatever.

Alpha:   And I don’t want to throw us off on a search.

Beta:   And there is an interesting thing about that, if it is the base of the spine that’s not a contradiction in that, in terms of the one chakra, that one exception.  Because the base of the chakra and kundalini is always a spark of cosmic buddhi.  Buddhi is always a higher vibration.  The base chakra is formed of ...

Gamma:   ... of buddhi ... that is why you have Neptune there.

Beta:   Yeah.  You have a direct line straight down the sutratma.  Down into the base chakra.  That is why it is never awake until the very end.  It would destroy the whole system.

Alpha:   Because this is a spark of the cosmic buddhi it would destroy the whole system? 

Beta:   Yeah.  Right

Alpha:   OK.   Now ...  hold on, we are in an interesting field here and we are going back and forth between the human chakra system and the systemic chakra system. 

Delta:   Pluto is mentioned as a sacred planet on page 416 Esoteric Astrology. It just simply says, he is talking about important cosmic triangles.  At the bottom of the page  “Connected with this major triangle” (the Great Bear, Sirius, Pleiades.)  “... and affecting powerfully our entire solar system is a triple inter-relation of great interest, which has a special and peculiar relation to humanity.  This triangle of forces relates one of these major constellations, one of the zodiacal signs and one of the sacred planets within our solar system.” The second triangle mentioned is The Great Bear, Aries, Pluto.

Alpha:   Now ... let me mention a contradiction in which Mars is the alter ego of Pluto and Venus is the alter ego of Earth. 

Beta:   Yeah.  That is so beautiful.

Alpha:   Yeah.  It fits nicely except the word alter ego implies that the first named planet is the superior one to the second named planet.  Mars is the alter ego of Pluto and Venus is the alter ego of Earth. 

Beta:   Interesting.  If Pluto is a sacred planet (and it is questionably a sacred planet) then she says it is non sacred and sacred at the same time … for a reason. 

Gamma:   I can remember another place when she talks of Pluto as a sacred planet.  …

Beta:   Well then this fits in exactly with what Gamma was saying, that the more highly evolved planets, the more sacred, may evolve later … May evolve later at this particular time it develops the very last. 

Alpha:   Um-haa.  So part of our problem may be looking at Pluto, that it is in a state of undevelopment though it is potentially a high being.

Beta:   And it is the bringer of enlightenment, strangely.  

Alpha:   And the healer.  … but, there is one problem with it.  Mars is definitely not sacred but it is put somehow in a superior position to Pluto.  Does this mean strictly developmentally rather than in terms of its....

Beta:   I think it has to be because when it speaks about that it speaks about Mars and Pluto, it can be associated with that section where entities from Mercury will come and Earth will be close to people from Mars …

Gamma:   You never know what is the host.  You never know if they come here to help or they are here cause they can be helped. 

Beta:   They need a battle ground.  And Earth is traditionally a battlefield.

Alpha:   But it won’t be after the fifth round.  At a certain point and a number of entities I think will be sent to Mars.  … We know not only will earth receive entities at a certain point, which is not the judgment day …  I think Earth will become a sacred planet in our fifth round of this chain, roughly, and that 2/5 will be sent to Mars which will still be a non sacred planet. 

Delta:   He says Earth, by the way, is a sacred planet, that it has already become sacred on the higher levels. 

Alpha:   Yes.  OK, so now we are in the logoic quaternary and we have established that Pluto may be more sacred than we think.

Beta:   And the Earth. 

Alpha:   And the Earth is also sacred.  And both Pluto and the Earth are contending for the base of the spine? Though it would be very difficult to place Pluto in the place of the spleen whereas Earth could be easily placed in the spleen because it is the whole vitality aspect. … although Mars is kundalini ‘latent’ it still should not be placed other than in the sacral, I think.  It could be placed in the solar plexus, but then Venus holds place within the Logioc lower quaternary.  Venus is also the home of the planetary logos of the sixth ray. 

Beta:   It is also the the fifth kumara … lower … and in some sense is accounted. 

Alpha:   And when you say kumara, you mean divine kumara, solar systemic kumara?  Kumara is a planetary logos.

Beta:   I haven’t sorted that out yet, its function is as a great clearing house.

Alpha:   ... the solar plexus; Venus is a great clearing house?

Beta:   Well, I believe its working as the fifth kumara counting down.  You count down from the third ray and the seventh ray is the fifth kumara.  … the third ray is always a clearing house for the lower four rays.  The fifth is peculiarly focused in our system; there is a focus on the fifth ray.  I haven’t clarified or verbalized that clearly enough.

Alpha:   The fifth ray is a being of the intensest light and is the most highly developed of the ray lords and … Venus is the most developed of the planetary logoi, so those two things fit together.  The ray lord, which is the most developed, and Venus which is the most unfolded.  And a being of the intensest luminosity which is also fits with Venus, for our purposes is the most luminous.

Gamma:   And what is (inaudible) brother Sirius.

Alpha:   Brother from Sirius.  Of course.  Really, the ray lords cannot simply be veils for an aspect of the planetary logos, they have to be higher than that.  I mean, ray lords have to be almost like the seven spirits before the throne in the cosmic sense.  We don’t want to get too much into that.

Delta:   .... (inaudible) says so, we are tentatively proposing that Pluto is the base of the spine.  But if Earth  is the spleen and ... Mars is sacral and Venus is the solar plexus.

Alpha:   There is reason to put Venus in the solar plexus.  What is interesting too is the number, it’s the tenth hierarchy.  Yeah.  The tenth hierarchy is ruled by Venus and there are ten petals in the solar plexus.  There is a correspondence there.

Gamma:   Are we getting close to Makara?

Alpha:   Yes.  That is the Makara aspect again.  Just continuing the idea so we can see what is unfolded, what is not, we’ll decide whether Venus is not as advanced a being as Saturn or Jupiter but is unfolded further …

Beta:   Um-hmm.  I would accept that, yes.

Alpha:   You see in the same way that our sun does not hold the highest place, our sun itself is in the lower quaternary of its system of suns, even through it is a heart centre. 

Delta:   Also, by analogy, he says that the vegetable kingdom of all the kingdoms on the Earth is the most advanced, given that the possibility that could have been achieved, yet they are not as advanced as the animal kingdom.

Alpha:   And it is correlated with Venus, the vegetable kingdom is correlated with Venus and it is the most advanced.   Bu the way, the vegetable kingdom particularly is coming in under ray six.  And it also has a four and a two with it.

Delta:   That is why it is the most advanced.

Beta:   Jupiter is coming in the on round six … or scheme six.

Alpha:   Well, it is third chain, fourth globe.  Now what do you mean?

Beta:   I am not sure.  If it came in on round six perhaps if it was in the fifth cycle then it could liberate Makara, it could be a fivefold [sounds like-à] animal creature ...

Alpha:   Yeah it could.  Although it is really interesting that in the Secret Doctrine, Venus and Jupiter or [sounds like]à Brehas, Potti and Sucra, are talked about as opponents.  Because, what is really interesting there is there that the [sounds likeà] Brehas, Potti or Jupiter represents conventional worship and Churchianity and all that kind of stuff, dogmatism, and Venus represents Luciferian activity.  Of course, if Jupiter is less advanced presently, than Venus, or less unfolded than Venus, the lower Jupiterian impulse could be coming in whereas the higher Venusean impulse would be coming in.  Anyway, I look at Jupiter as the heart centre of our solar system.

Gamma:   I am still stuck on this egoic  lotus of man you know.  It should be the same for the solar egoic lotus.

Alpha:   He says twelve petals which is interesting.  Beta, did you reconcile that?  We have a twelve petalled egoic lotus on the cosmic mental plane for the solar logos, and we have somehow still seven tiers with ‘x’ number of petals per tier, plus a threefold flame.  We have an apparent contradiction. 

Delta:   There is something on 1018, which has

Gamma:   We don’t have seven tiers.

Alpha:   No.  We don’t have seven tiers. 

Beta:   How many kumaras are awake now, locally we could have four tiers with only three tiers awakened with petals on them.  …

Gamma:   Yeah, the ‘kumara’ is very close to ‘Makara’.

Alpha:   ... it is all likely in those books .... (laughter)

 

(end of side 8a)

Alpha:   And what we were just talking about before Delta gets into his thing here was that on page 47 of Esoteric Astrology we read about the logoic twelve petalled egoic lotus on the cosmic mental plane.  It is twelve petalled here, and then elsewhere … Seven tiers on 1161. …

            Anyway, an apparent problem arises there in the numbering.  But, lest we think that we have easily understood the numbers of any of the chakras, unless I am much mistaken, there is a place in Cosmic Fire where even our humble our base of the spine centre has sixteen petals.  … OK,  let’s not look for it now.  Anyway, there are sixteen petals, and are those sixteen additional to the four or subsidiary to the four.  I think they are subsidiary to the four. 

Delta:   1164 gives it as sixteen petals … near the bottom:  “It is, for instance, correct to say that the planetary scheme corresponding to the microcosmic base of the spine is a fourfold lotus and has, therefore, four petals. There are four outstanding petals of a peculiar hue, but there are three of a secondary colour, and nine of a tertiary nature.”

Alpha:   Three and nine are twelve, plus four are sixteen.   “To the student with intuition” the hint will solve all of Cosmic Fire!  “To students with intuition the hint here conveyed may reveal the name of the planet, and the nature of its evolution.” 

Now, does this sixteen have to do with man or just with the planetary logos?  Why is this?  Let’s read this again.  This is very important.  “Each of these planetary schemes can be seen as a lotus having seven major petals, of which each chain forms one petal, but having also subsidiary petals of a secondary color according to the nature and karma of the Entity concerned. It is in the enumeration of these solar lotuses that occult students go astray.”

Delta:   So lotuses are the same as planetary schemes?

Alpha:   Yeah.  And we are just about to go astray.  “It is, for instance, correct to say that the planetary scheme corresponding to the microcosmic base of the spine is a fourfold lotus and has, therefore, four petals. There are four outstanding petals of a peculiar hue, but there are three of a secondary colour, and nine of a tertiary nature.  (To students with intuition the hint here conveyed may reveal the name of the planet, and the nature of its evolution).  Each of these solar lotuses, or planetary schemes, unfolds in three great stages of activity, in each one of which one of the three types of energy dominates.” 

            This is exactly on the subject ...isn’t it?

Beta:   ... that we were talking about, yes.  “As the unfolding proceeds, the vibratory activity increases, and the appearance of the manifesting activity changes.

a.     The motion of the lotus or wheel for a long time is simply that of a slow revolution.”

b.     Later, for a still vaster period, each petal revolves within the greater whole, and at an angle different to that of the whole revolution.”

(Wow!)

c.     Finally, these two activities are increased by the appearance of a form of energy which, originating from the centre, pulsates so powerfully that it produces what look to be streams of energy passing backwards and forwards from the centre to the periphery.

d.    When these three are working in unison, the effect is wonderful in the extreme, and impossible for the eye to follow, the mind of man to conceive, or the pen to express in words. It is this stage, macrocosmic and microcosmic, which constitutes the different grades of alignment, for it must never be forgotten by students that all that manifests is a sphere, and alignment really consists in unimpeded communication between the heart of the sphere and the periphery or the bound of the influence of the dynamic will and the centre.

What  new and wonderful definition of alignment.

Delta:   By the way, I would like to go to another page and add some more petals, page 1028 Cosmic Fire.  And this is also quoted on page 647 Esoteric Astrology.  Says:  “The solar system is literally a twelve-petalled lotus, each petal being formed of forty-nine lesser petals.”

            By the way, as an aside, twelve times forty-nine is 588, and the synoptic period between Earth and Venus when they come together is every 584 days, so there might be some connection between the Earth and Venus  if days equal petals like, one day for each petal.  … That cycle was of total importance in the Mayan culture. And they instead of using this mean average of 584, the Mayan’s used 580 + 587 + 580 + 587. So here we have a couple of 587’s which are almost exactly 588.  Anyway just a mathematical quick break aside.

Alpha:   OK.  You know what just happened here, we just read that a chain is a petal?  Page 1165, a chain is a petal.

Delta:   “Each of these planetary schemes can be seen as a lotus having seven major petals, of which each chain forms one petal ...”

Alpha:   OK. ... chains as petals … And each petal is a scheme.  Each petal in the solar system is a scheme.  Is this correct?  The planetary lotuses differ in each scheme. … Each solar petal is a scheme.

Beta:   Each scheme has seven petals, each composed of seven chains. 

Alpha:   … but the number is 49.  Each petal has 49 lesser petals.  Now ... on page 1164, each of these planetary schemes can be seen as a lotus having seven major petals (which is a problem, but we will talk about it later), of which each chain forms one petal, but also having subsidiary petals of a secondary colour according to the nature and the karma of the entity concerned.  And such subsidiary petals might be globes; they are not chains.  Now what I am trying to get at, if I go to page 1018, we have the solar system as a vast blue lotus, a twelve petalled lotus...

Beta:   ... not a seven petalled lotus.

Alpha:   No, not a seven petalled lotus, but twelve.  And I am looking at twelve planetary schemes.  I am hoping to find that twelve planetary schemes that equate to each one of the petals of the solar system lotus. 

Delta:   Do we want the names of the twelve planetary schemes?

Alpha:   And we are working on that right now.   However, now I want to say that each one of those twelve has a subsidiary forty-nine.  So, 12 x 49 is 588, how much is 588 x 12?   I don’t have my calculator with me so, Well, you can do 600 x 12 = 7200 and subtract 12 x 12 or 144.  So, 7056.  Maybe.

Delta:   Yeah.  7056.

Alpha:   OK, 7056 is the number of lesser petals in a solar system of the kind they are talking about here.  Now, how many of them are chains?  We have just learned that each planetary scheme has seven major petals which are chains.  So, if we have twelve schemes with seven chains apiece, there are 84 chains.  Minimum.  I can also find that reference, if pressed, which states there are ten chains to a scheme.   Now what are we going to do with there 49 lesser petals? 

Gamma:   Could they be globes?

Alpha:   Well, the thing is, if they are 49 they can easily be globes.  But then, somehow the chains as petals are not listed.  Are they?  Wouldn’t it be better to say that each petal is formed of seven lesser petals and 49 still lesser petals?

Delta:   In Esoteric Astrology it goes in seven’s, everything is part of seven within seven, within seven within seven. 

Alpha:   OK.   But, he just jumped to globe level.  In other words, is a petal considered a globe?  Now I am on page 1018.   The solar system is literally a twelve petalled lotus and I am assuming a lotus is a scheme, each petal being formed of 49 lesser petals.  A scheme is formed of forty-nine globes.

Delta:   Yes, I agree.  So each petal is a globe.  I agree with that definition. 

Beta:   Well, actually the solar system is a scheme.  ... No, twelve petalled lotus, cause it has ten schemes.

Alpha:   It has ten schemes and twelve schemes.  He said there is basis for this.  Remember, we read it earlier today.  The Tibetan says there is basis to consider the twelve. 

Beta:   If these petals are schemes.  The scheme is basically a replica of the system.  But the scheme, we know, has seven petals, and each petal is seven chains.

Epsilon:   You just said petals are globe, and you said petals are schemes.

Delta:   Yeah.  Each petal has seven chains.  And each chain has seven globes.  So, seven times seven is forty-nine. 

Gamma:   We are talking about subsidiary petals.

Alpha:   Subsidiary petals … he says 49 subsidiary, but he left out one group of petals.  Remember how we just read that there are two kinds of subsidiary petals, on page 1164:  “There are four outstanding petals of a peculiar hue, but there are three of a secondary colour, and nine of a tertiary nature.” There are secondary and tertiary petals.  And basically, secondary petals are on the chain level, and tertiary petals are on the globe level  Only over here he didn’t bother, on page 1018 distinguishing between secondary and tertiary. 

Delta:   Well, let me just back track for a second and propose something else.  Maybe these secondary petals refer to the different vehicles.  There is a major vehicle of four petals, and lets say the mental vehicle; and then there is an astral vehicle of so many petals ...

Alpha:   That is really what it boils down to anyway.  Doesn’t it?  A chain is essentially a function, you know it is like a vehicle, it’s the chakra.  What do you mean by vehicle ... see …. 

Delta:   OK.   So we need two simultaneous definitions.  A globe and a, what are the bodies, what terms do you use exactly …  a vehicle?

Alpha:   OK.   In other words, a petal is a vehicle.  If a chain is a  vehicle, and a chain is a chakra  .....a chain is also a petal.   Can a vehicle be a chakra? 

Delta:   Yeah.  Cause lets say the solar plexus would be the astral vehicle.  Maybe it is not that simple but basically that is the truth.  …

Alpha:   Lets look at man.  The mental vehicle is not the chakras in the mental body.  The astral vehicle is not the chakras in the astral body.  So, you know, in a funny kind of way the chakras basically refer to personality, they refer to forces within the personality which are generated from the monad.  We just read on page 168 or 166, that all chakras are monad generated.  So they come from the first aspect of divinity.  But they take their place within the third aspect of divinity, don’t they? 

Gamma:   But they are consciousness aspect. 

Alpha:   Chakras are consciousness aspect.  See, here is the point I want to get at.  …

Beta:   Why are they consciousness.  I think of chakras more as life aspect.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Certainly life aspect.  They are life aspect reflected in form.  They are life-giving as whirlpools in form. 

Beta:   They co-ordinate the form.  … The etheric auras is only so much prana that atma can project down into the etheric body, the pranic vehicle is only that much prana that atma can project down into the etheric vehicle.  That is not the same as the ____ or the etheric body ... the pranic body.  It’s making a fine differentiation in terms of a different set of lower principles. 

Alpha:   OK.   Well, where does prana come from?  Is prana really atma, is that what you are saying?

Beta:   No, no … the etheric body ... this is fantastic actually, because he says if we combine that ... then the etheric body is monadic, and the prana is atmic.  Good god.  That is incredible!

… I have to find the cite for it; it is right in the beginning here ... page 77:  "Prana, or the vital principle, is the special relation of the Atma with a certain form of matter which by the relation of Atma organises and builds up as a means of having experience. This special relation constitutes the individual Prana in the individual body.”

OK.   We know that prana is contained by the etheric body … and the etheric body is generated by the monad, not atma.  But atma encloses the prana in a strange sense. ... or is the ...

Alpha:   So, what is a simple statement that we could say ... that would give us an encapsulation of what you just discovered.

Beta:   Page 168 I guess, that the monad generates the etheric energies.  We don’t know ... he doesn’t explicitly state that the etheric energies were ... on 165 [Cosmic Fire] actually … the ethers of the mental body and the astral body.  We don’t know if he includes that in his ethers.  But they must if it descends directly down from the monad. 

This is 165. “The centres in the human being deal fundamentally with the fire aspect in man, or with his divine spirit.  They are definitely connected with the Monad, with the will aspect, with immortality, with existence, with the will to live, and with the inherent powers of Spirit.  They are not connected with objectivity and manifestation, but with force, or the powers of the divine life.”

Alpha:   OK.  That is important. It is a spirit generated force.

Beta:   This force originates on cosmic mental levels, from certain great foci.  This is on the macrocosm, with regard to the planets.  …

Alpha:   But then what did you say about atma in relation to prana.

Beta:   And atma is the special relation of atma with a certain form of matter by which relation atma organises and builds as a means of having experience.  “This special relation constitutes the individual Prana in the individual body. The cosmic all-pervading Prana is not Prana in the gross sense, but is a name for the Brahman as the author of the individual Prana ... All beings, whether Devatas, men or animals, exist only so long as the Prana is within the body. It is the life duration of all ...”

However this is in the theosophical sense where the pranic vehicle is distinct from the etheric vehicle ... the etheric body.

Alpha:   Wait a second.  So the pranic vehicle, or prana as a principle is distinct from the etheric body ... but not the pranic vehicle. 

Beta: ... but not the pranic vehicle.  You would call that the etheric vehicle.  But ...

Alpha:   The vehicle is the etheric vehicle. 

Beta:   Yeah.  But this is the idea of atma being envelope in which prana is contained.  But it  is not the etheric vehicle which is generated by the monad on a higher level.  Evidently.

Alpha:   Well, we have been taught relative to the etheric body that there is a structural etheric body and then there is ether that flows through that structured etheric body.

Beta:   Right.  So that must be the prana regulated by atma on the three levels because ... there you go, we have a microcosmic correspondence to the three higher subplanes of the atmic.  Because the etheric body is organised in terms of the seven, well actually fourfold, four if in one of the four ethers, eh the four head centres. ... then the four chakras.  Then the twelve meridians.  Then the nadis network. 

Alpha:   OK.   We are basically saying that the vehicle of prana is the etheric body itself, and is that constituted of ethers of the fourth order?  In other words the structural etheric body is composed of ethers of all four orders or …

Beta:   Oh, no ... because atma organises it.  It is true that the higher ethers could be in latency if they are not used by a primitive native or subject ... or something. 

Alpha:   OK ... I just want to know what composes the structure of the etheric body.  I mean, do we have ethers of how many orders composing the structure.

Beta:   For unevolved men the heart and centres are ruled by sacred planets.  So the ether is of a higher quality.  But they’re certainly not conscious of it, they can’t utilise it, but they are regulated in the planetary constitution by sacred planets.  They are kept in place in some sense.  But all the lower chakras are definitely non-sacred planets, or non sacred in nature. … It must be the lower ethers.

Alpha:   So, in other words, I am looking at the etheric body as a vessel.  Does it change its constitution depending upon the evolvement of an individual, or are all etheric bodies composed of atomic, subatomic, super-etheric and etheric ethers? 

Beta:   I think they would have to be composed of all just because the monad generates its reflection right here.  But of course that could be cut off by the lower animal man.

Alpha:   But then prana is considered as distinct from this etheric structure?

Beta:   ... in that it circulates, and is more regulated on atmic levels perhaps. That’s what seems to be the implication.

Alpha:   But it still circulates within the etheric body?  Is it atmically generated?

Beta:   ... if we look at it in planetary constitution level then this makes a lot of sense, the Ray Lords touch down in the monadic plane, but they only individualise in the atmic plane.  …

Gamma:   ... something about the etheric body he said in Esoteric Psychology I, that the etheric body is the soul of the atoms. 

Beta:   I love that cite. 

Alpha:   OK.   I think that is in the Hierarchies isn’t it, where he describes the seventh Creative Hierarchy? …

No, a different citation but this correlates, more or less with it, doesn’t it?  If I may just, I may be incorrect, but let me just see here. This is page 50 of Esoteric Astrology.  So, the seventh creative hierarchy is etherically connected with the baskets of nourishment.  Ah yeah:  “It might be noted that the seventh hierarchy is the life or energy found at the heart of every atom.  Its positive aspect.”  Is not the seventh, its positive aspect.   And the sixth hierarchy is the life of the forms of all etheric bodies and every tangible object. 

                OK.   I am afraid we have ramified to such a point that we lost what we were doing of a structural nature.  We had just stopped at Venus and we have looked at Jupiter as the possible heart centre.  And right there we went off. 

Gamma:   I wanted to say that the mental [solar] plexus is connected to the astral heart.  And I was wondering if this was one of the reasons why Venus could be the plexus centre of the solar logos at that point.

Alpha:   Well, OK that seems a pretty good correspondence. 

Now, what I wanted to ask, I kind of side tracked myself ...

Delta:   You want to set up tentative rulerships, of what place each planet applies ...

Alpha:   And before getting into that I just want to say that, if I am a man I am the sun of my system, my mental body or my mental principle is none of my chakras.  Correct?

Delta:   Yes, but probably your mental principle would be influenced heavily by the state of your throat chakra and your ajna chakra.

Alpha:   Yeah.  But my mental principle is a principle.  It is a factor of consciousness.  … Well, the principles themselves are sort of second aspects.  They are sort of the degree of unfoldment of soul.  They are the consciousness behind the vehicle.  There is always going to be a consciousness behind the vehicle, right? … We really have to get this straight.  Otherwise we are not going to know ...

Beta:   Well it is a mystery so far.

Alpha:   Let me get at this.  I think that the sun has an astral body.  I mean, the solar logos has an astral body.  As solar logos has a mental body.  A solar logos has an egoic lotus ... blah, blah, blah.  And so does Jupiter and so does Venus and so does Earth and so does everything else.  … I want to say that the sun’s mental body is its own mental body.  And I don’t care what planet you throw out there as representing a certain factor within the system of our sun, our Solar Logos. It is not the mental body of our sun, the same way that my chakra is not my mental body.  Am I being at all clear?  In other words, Venus has its own mental body. 

Delta:   OK.   the energy coming through the chakra controls the body.  Maybe that would be all....

Alpha:   OK.   that is fine.  I know there is a connection.   What I want to get at is the following, Venus has its own astral body.  Our sun has its own astral body.  Venus is not the astral body of our sun.

Beta:   Yeah, but the body is lower than the chakras, because the chakras are sort of the skeletal system of the soul bodies.

Alpha:   OK.   … maybe when I am saying body what I am really meaning is ‘principle’ … consciousness principle.

Gamma:   So for example the astral body of the sun.  The chakra, Venus, isn’t its astral body. 

Alpha:   Exactly.  Here is kama of the sun.  The sun has kama.  Venus has kama.

Delta:   And assuming Venus were the solar plexus chakra, it would have a larger amount of control over that astral body.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Venus is going to condition the kama of the sun, but the sun’s kama, or the Solar Logos’ kama is its own kama.  So this is extremely important because so often we say, Oh, Solar Logos, oh yeah, Venus is the astral body or the kama of the sun.  But it is not.  So this has an awful lot to do with placing the planets as to what they really are. 

Gamma:   But, if you take a look at your own solar plexus.  … We’ve said the difference of your own solar plexus means, sort of an entity, and your astral body being the vehicle of this entity ...

Alpha:   OK.   Wait a second, or is it the other way around?  Look, let’s see if I can get this straight.  I have kama.  Kama is one of my principles.  Right?  But kama, as a principle, has an instrument on three different levels which is called a solar plexus: etheric solar plexus, astral solar plexus, mental solar plexus. Kama is the principle and these plexi are its instrument.  … Because my principle is more important to me than these particular vortices within a vehicle.  In other words, kama is intimate to me.  My psychological nature is divided into seven principles ...

Beta:   The principles have to involve other hierarchies of beings.

Alpha:   OK.   You see this is a subtle this is a real subtle distinction because you talk about the slap dash method ... you say ....

Beta:   This becomes painful ... because then you’d say that the karmic [kamic?] body is composed of elemental essence ... or lunar pitris substance?  ...to a certain extent.  But, at some point the astral permanent atom is dropped ... and the focus becomes on the Buddhic permanent atom.  Well, what happens to the ...

Alpha:   ... the karma?

Beta:   Yeah does that is that means that the lunar pitric substance becomes solar pitric substance? … to the cosmic names in the causal body.  

Alpha:   Well that’s really so refined, I almost can’t follow it.

Beta:   I don’t know.  That involves abstraction too.

Alpha:   Yeah.  You really abstract from something there but, you may be completely right but since I don’t have the steps to go there.

Gamma:   I want to be sure about this relation of the principle or the vehicle or a plane.  A plane is principle ... is it?

Alpha:   No.  A plane is a vehicle for a principle.

Gamma:   So we would have the plane, which is a vehicle.  You would have the principle which  is ...

Alpha:   The principle is the activator....

Gamma:   ... and we would have a subject which is the first principle. 

Alpha:   Well you have a centre which is a reflection of the first ...

Beta:   Yeah well it is an aspect. That is very difficult.  It is not permanent atom.  It’s not the chakra.

Alpha:   You see, before we can define what a solar system is or what a man is we can’t just leap into the chakras part.  You were saying this the other night ....

Beta:   Well that is why the first principle aspect ....

Alpha:   We have to leap into the principles.  Principles and chakras.  Otherwise you can’t even do astrology. You see what is terrible important ... the principles of man, as they are given on page … I opened to it.  Page 262, it  just fell open to it:  ... the psychic evolution.  Here are the principles of man.  By the way he is so relativistic here, but he just tells you from a different point of view what is it.  OK. 

He gives us many different ways to count the principles, sometimes ten, sometimes nine, sometimes seven.  Look at the top of 264.  The psychic evolution, there is the spirit manifestation, the monadic egg.  Now, there he seems to talk about, that’s prakriti.  It shouldn’t really be that.  It should be monadic something, but not the substance aspect.  …

So lets ... let’s get down to something we know.  Atma is will, and that is a principle.  Will is independent of the prakriti through which it manifests.  Then comes Buddhi, pure reason or higher wisdom, this is all related to the soul.  This is the subjective nature of the being.  In other words ...

But some of these enumerations are prakritic.  And some of them are principled.  And we have got to distinguish between the particular ones ...  Let’s count up the vehicles in man ...

Beta:   The monadic egg here he is always talking causally. 

Alpha:   Wait a second.  He can’t talk causally here because we have pure mind, higher mind, which is the causal area.  He is starting from the top.  There is a monadic auric egg on its own plane. 

Delta:   It seems there is a difference between a principle or the yang element, and the vehicle the principle uses or the yin element. 

Alpha:   Yes.  And that is right.  And we have to substantiate that. 

Delta:   And then it says clearly in Cosmic Fire.  The creative hierarchies are the vehicles through which the rays manifest. 

Alpha:   It says that in one place but in another it makes the rays lower than the hierarchies.  So we have to check that out as well.  As matter of fact tomorrow we will be dealing with the hierarchies. 

But, the point is before we can understand a solar system or a man, or what place a secondary being has in a greater being, we have to understand the constitution of the greater being.  It is too easy to just look at our chakras or to look at the planets and say ah, yes those are the seven parts of the greater being forgetting that the greater being has its own seven parts.

Delta:   So, simply put, there are principles and there are vehicles through which the principles manifest. 

Alpha:   Yes, if we can understand what a principle really is. That’s why I started to enumerate these things, you see. 

Beta:   Just in the middle of that page she has a, b, c ... sevenfold objectivity, the material forms, sevenfold subjectivity, psychic evolution, the seven fold spirituality, the life of the entity. 

Alpha:   Well there it is.  There it is.  The sevenfold objectivity is prakritic.  … I don’t think that the people who have given us the principles and bodies have respected this twenty-one fold differentiation, which she puts here in the middle of 264. 

Gamma:   Sevenfold subjectivity would be the principle.   

Alpha:   Yeah.  Sevenfold subjectivity is soul within every vehicle.  In other words, What is it like for soul to have to work through desire?  What is it like for soul to work on the plane of mind?  Sevenfold consciousness as bounded by matter of different types.  And by the way the sevenfold life of the entity, sevenfold spirituality, how are you going to divide that?  …

Beta:  Well, she says it right in that next sentence: “We will note also that in the tabulation of the spiritual life of the Monad we considered it as fivefold.”

... not seven fold.  “This was necessarily so in this fivefold evolution, but the remaining two principles ...”

... of the monadic evolution, or as life entity … “might be considered as The life of the Heavenly Man in Whose body the human Monad finds a place.”

Alpha:   OK, Find for me the life tabulation of the monad.

Beta:   The page before, Page 263.  Top. “The psychic nature of the Monad is twofold.

                1.  The principle of atma. Spiritual nature. Will.

                2.  The principle of buddhi. Love nature. Wisdom.

3.  The principle of manas. Intelligence nature, Activity.

“Note here that the three principles in terms of the Triad with the two synthesising principles on the plane of the Monad, make five principles and give the key to H. P. B.'s numbering in certain places. We might express it thus:”  

Beta:   So the two synthesising principles that she notes as I, II, III ....

I.                     The Absolute                        The Monad.

II.                   1.             Prakriti                 Active intelligence.  The Divine Manasaputra.

2.               Purusha                 Love-Wisdom. The Vishnu aspect.

On the plane of objectivity.

III.                 3.             Atma.                                      The Triad.

4.       Buddhi

5.       Manas.

That is five: Prakriti, Purusha, Atma, Buddhi, Manas. 

Alpha:   OK.   And that is the life aspect? … Is this what she calls the life of the entity, the sevenfold spirituality?  Now, maybe we are going to discover something.  Let me ask, What is the difference between action and consciousness?  I have a reason for asking this.

Beta:   If you say action is the same as activity?

Alpha:   I am not differentiating there. You know what I have just done here?  You know what I am about to say?  Life is one undifferentiated … it’s it own thing.  The Absolute.  I am just beginning to wonder.  I might realise I am making a mistake, from before, What if the principles are not the psychic differentiations but are in fact, the differentiations of spirit?  And what if the psychic differentiations are in fact the type of consciousness that results from the interaction of the seven spirit activities with the seven material envelopes producing seven types of consciousness.  …

Let me just repeat what I said to make sure we got it. The search right now is to figure out what is a principle.  And I am just beginning to realise, by looking at these principles, that they may be reflections of the spirit aspect.  And that the consciousness that results from the interaction of the principle with the prakritic field is seven differentiated natures of a different kind. … Before I said the principles are definitely related to consciousness.

So, here is what I am saying, maybe atma is a kind of activity.  It is a kind of dynamic movement which is spirit generated.  It is will.  And maybe the field in which it operates is prakritic.  And maybe what arises from the interplay of the two is what we call consciousness upon the atmic plane, or what the Buddha achieved.  See … I am looking for the origin of principles here.

Beta:   Well the prakriti aspect is … inherited from a previous solar system.  Purusha is still latent.  Love-wisdom is not fully developed … but it sort of fills in the form created by prakriti.

Gamma:   We have here on page 264 ... we have here the enumeration of the principle… at the bottom of 265 remember that the physical body is not a principle, that atma is not a principle ...

Alpha:   OK.  Now, but hold on … Atma is not a principle because when atma means the Atman, it means the ray of the absolute, which everybody shares. … But when atma is spiritual will ... it is a principle.

Beta:   It is a principle.  And the reason for that, speaking about the philosophy of Bailey, is that Blavatsky dealt with the principles inherited from the previous system where atma was the top most plane. … So the principles are enumerated from atma down.   Bailey is introducing where we are headed which will include the monadic.

Alpha:   But atma is not the Atman.  … And this is a big problem, because they are so close to each other that we  ... sometimes …

Gamma:   But the second principle here ... is atma.  ... and here he says it is not a principle.

Beta:   Well this is Bailey, but I should say that Blavatsky says the same thing. … I terrorize the theosophical students by pointing out the fact Blavatsky mentions the monad thousands of times, scores of times through her books, and she said that atma was a principle, atma was not a principle, the highest principle is atma, no the highest principle was atma-buddhi, not it was atma-buddhi-manas, no it was the monad ... and so ....

Alpha:   Compiler’s revenge!

Beta:   ... believe me it was horrible.

Alpha:   OK.  Well ... going back here for a second.  Because we still are going to go the chakra system in both levels.  But the point is that what we discovered is that the chakra system is not enough.  To really understand the human being the whole question of sevenfold objectivity, sevenfold subjectivity, sevenfold spirituality, this is what makes an entity.  Plus the One which makes the twenty-two.

 

(end of tape)

Tape Nine Begins

 

Alpha:   OK.   This is tape number nine.  Beta is on a cliff-hanger here.  He has just discovered something.

Beta:   In Bailey’s tabulation of the principles she uses a lot of Blavatsky’s references and she compiles the principles in about five or six different ways.  And we just went through the subjective principles now, and then we went through, most recently, the five monadic principles which are Purusha, Prakriti, Atma, Buddhi-Manas. 

But when you get to the bottom of page 265, we are trying to figure out what the life principle is in relationship to man, and we noticed on page 165 that the monad generates the etheric body.  On page 77, atma isolates and encloses the vital body and prana.  On the bottom of page 265, footnote d, “the etheric body is the vehicle for prana.”  We know that the etheric body is not the dense physical body.  Prana is enumerated as a separate principle in lower enumerations of the principles; in the lower quaternary particularly.  Then, right after that it says  “remember also:  a) That the physical body is not a principle.  b That atma is not a principle.” 

However, the physical body has the etheric body generated by the monad and atma has isolated the pranic vehicle.  … And that corresponds to the theosophists auric envelope, which is their way of saying that the monad doesn’t exist.  The Atman is not atma. … but their atma would be called the auric envelope, or atma isolating the pranic vehicle.  So this justifies the fundamentalist theosophical enumeration of the principles with all of Bailey’s details. …

Alpha:   This relationship of atma with prana, in my mind, needs further clarification.  But  ... we can’t go into that right now.  But the point has been stated coherently by Beta in the last three or four minutes, and therefore it can be developed so we can all understand it.  OK.  

                Now, back to the idea of a principle.  I just read on 263, the principles given which are spiritual principles are five fold here: active intelligence, love-wisdom, atma, buddhi, and manas.  These are spiritual principles.  And its says if we add two more, the life of the Heavenly Man (in whose body the human monad finds its place) we have a fivefold differentiation, of what might be called sevenfold spirituality.  Right?  Is that correct? … and then the seven, the life of logos in whose body the Heavenly Man finds its place.  So that would be called ‘sevenfold spirituality’. 

                Now, unfortunately, whenever you say there are three principles you might as well say as seven principles ... you might as well say there are ten. And they could be what has happened, what has been left out here is manas, kama, and prana and kama-manas. In other words, because higher manas has been mentioned, right?  In other words atma, buddhi, manas ...

                Look, you know how the first aspect is dynamic and how it has nothing to do with consciousness.  The first ray types are dynamic, and they understand through energy.  So, what we are asking here is are the seven principles seven dynamisms which, in interaction with passive vehicle, produce consciousness.  Is there a principle called buddhi which is not buddhic consciousness?  Is there a principle called atma which is not atmic consciousness?  I am trying to differentiate this out into its twenty-one fold system like it is put here on page 264.  You see how these are all mixed together?  We cannot call will consciousness ...can we? 

Delta:   Doesn’t Indian philosophy go to tamatras (nabutas?) and stuff like that. 

Beta:   It’s true.  That is the Hindu differentiation in our cosmic radius.

Delta:   Would that be a help to elucidate that Hindu thing?

Alpha:   It might be.  We need a three fold system to go into the twenty-one.

Delta:   That is the tattvas, the tamantras, and the ...

Beta:   Yeah.  Why don’t we look it up.

Alpha:   How would we define them?  … Thank God one of those books ....

Beta:   It is not fresh in my mind at all.

Gamma:   While he is looking at it ... here is a differentiation of principle. The basic differentiation, essential quality or type of energy upon which all things are built.  They give the distinctive nature of all forms.

Alpha:   That is not consciousness, page 86?  That is absolutely not consciousness.  “Principles, the basic differentiations, essential qualities or types of energy upon which all things are built; they give the distinctive nature of all forms.”

Delta:   The tattva’s.

Alpha:   That is called the tattva.  Let me read you Tyberg’s definition of tattva.  The word tattva means the reality or that-ness  (... tattva of a thing).  The seven tattva’s are the principles or essences of the cosmos, the consciousness and directed forces, the sources of the manifested elements or rudimentary stuffs of the cosmos which last are known as the mahabhuta’s, or the great [sounds like]à hasbets. … The rudimentary stuffs ...

Alpha:   Are they different from tattvas?

Delta:   Yeah.  In other words the tattvas are the source of the bhutas.

Alpha:   OK.   this is very important because the bhutas are prakritic.

Delta:   Yes, these great elements are not the Earth, air, water and fire we perceive here.  These latter are but presentiments of these great mahabhuta’s.  The two highest of these tattvas and bhuta’s are not as yet recognised by humans, but will be in the future ages.  [sounds likeà] Tygasa and Apas are the adjectival forms of  tetas (fire) and apas (water). 

Alpha:   OK.   So now what are you going to put in the middle?

Delta:    (inaudible)  ... tanmantra.  The tanmantras are in the middle and tanmantra literally means ‘merely that’ or ‘only a trifle’.  A compound  of tattva and matra, trifle, or a unit of measure.  The five tanmantras are the rudimentary elements from which the gross elements or mahabhuta’s of earth, water, air, fire and ether arise.

Alpha:   Still sounds prakritic.

Delta:   Yes.  It is ultimately prakritic but it is the subtlest form of  ....

Beta:    But this is on the cosmic level, Bailey’s cosmic level.

Delta:   So, let me just read something out about the tattva’s, like the lokas and [sounds likeà] pawals, each tattva and bhuta gives birth to the tattvas and bhutas below it, and it retains a portion of all the other tattva’s and bhuta’s within it and yet manifests its own dominant characteristic.  Each tattva has a corresponding bhuta of the same name.  Below are the seven tattvas with their meaning.  And they give adi tattva, [sounds likeà] anapadaka tattva, akasha tattva … These are the planes ...

Alpha:   These are not the planes.  These are the potencies ... the energies. 

Delta:   Yeah.  .... tigasa or (inaudible) tattva (the fire principle), laya tattva (air principle), apas tattva (water principle), and pritivhi tattva (earth principle).

Alpha:   So basically, tattvas are energies and like Gamma just said, a principle is a basic differentiation ... “essential qualities, or types of energy upon which all things are built.  They give the distinctive nature of all forms.”  

Delta:   So the principles would be the tattva’s.

Alpha:   The principles are the tattvas and they are modes of motion, or they are energies.  In other words, this is what I want to get at and it is difficult for me to frame.  Is it possible to consider that there is a mode of motion called ‘will’ ... a dynamic patterning force called ‘will’ which moves (this is primitive, but), which moves the matter of a certain level of prakriti in such a way that a certain type of consciousness arises?  Is there a possibility, of an aggregating energy which we call Buddhi, an attractive energy which we call Buddhi (it is not consciousness yet; it is just an energy) that moves prakriti on a certain level in such a way that the consciousness of love, or of harmony arises?

Delta:   That would be the tanmantra.

Alpha:   OK.   But the way you describe tanmantra sounded so prakritic.  It sounds still connected with the third aspect. … But are we understanding what I am trying to get at?

Gamma:   That consciousness is the effect of life on matter.

Alpha:   Yes.  It is as simple as that.

Gamma:   Where is the principle in that?

Alpha:   The principle is that it is a structuring principle.  In other words it ...

Gamma:   Is it a pre-consciousness thing?

Alpha:   Yes.

Beta:   Maybe it is just like what was described as atma, atma as a ray that comes down, isolates a circle of prana and creates a field of interaction.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Look, all you have when you are dealing with prakriti is a field.  All you have is a field  of  homogeneous substance ... built in a particular way by fohat, let us say.  But you have no form. 

Beta:   That is true, we are approaching this relativity principle (not relativism), but relativity because the devas and the pitris are always, relative, you know which one is on top,  or which is energy and force.  … Force involved with the shell and the energy pouring through the form.  So, consciousness is incredibly difficult to discuss, except that I think that it is … what makes up our body of consciousness. We still are dealing with prakritic level. 

Alpha:   Consciousness is not prakriti.  Consciousness is the registration of forms of prakriti.

Beta:   Well if you go way back to the beginning of the universal, we’d have the circle, the empty circle, which represents mulaprakriti or akasha.

Alpha:   OK.   And that is akasha at the very highest sense but mulaprakriti itself is not consciousness. … Consciousness has nothing to do with Mulaprakriti in my opinion.

Beta:   Well it is a field of consciousness because it is only when purusha is reflected back  ..

Alpha:   ... mulaprakriti is the field in which consciousness arises. 

Beta:   Yeah.  But it comes first.

Alpha:   Mulaprakriti comes third ... well, almost like the three burst simultaneously....

Beta:   That is a very difficult.

Gamma:   We are victim of our (inaudible) here.

Alpha:   I know, but that is all we have. 

Delta:   What will this help us do .... once we solve this?

Alpha:   OK.   What will this help us do?  Well, we are almost done but, we have to get into how any type of system is really put together in order to find out what the parts of the system mean.  So right now we are trying to say, instead of just diving into a bunch of chakras, we are asking What is the man? Whether it is a Heavenly Man, Solar Man, or human being – of what is he composed?  And in doing so we said, the principles are different from the chakras … we began to ask ourselves, what is a principle? 

And now we are seeming to say that a principle is really part of sevenfold spirituality, the life of the entity ...  Normally you consider life to be unitary and non divisible, but it seems to me that the principles are now derived from the first aspect and not from the second aspect.

Beta:   I still think they are second.  Because … the thing is you always have to think of an entity higher that provides the form for what is below.   It could be his definition of time is the consciousness of form.  So what does that say about consciousness? 

Alpha:   Time is the consciousness of form.  OK.   Well I can see that.  (Laughs.) I think I can see it. 

Beta:   I am just trying to reframe the consciousness question.  The principles, seven principles, could be looked upon as chakras on a higher level. Principles could be looked upon as chakras on a higher plane because they are energy and they are essential qualities.  So on some level they are the energy to the lower, the energy that flows to the lower chakras which are the form.  But then the principles themselves could be considered chakras which conduct energy from the dynamic source, the life aspect …

Gamma:   You would say, for example, that the plexus we have would be principled by the cosmic plexus?

Beta:   Yes, exactly.  Because that is why the monadic spirit is only five principles.  And one of the two synthesising principles is latent.  It is not even fully expressive.  (And this ties in with the four kumaras ... yes, it seems to tie into many things, but then), if you have a fivefold monad of principles, that means that universal life is, she said  the ___ sixth and seventh could be added as  the cell in the body of the Heavenly Man.  And ....

Alpha:   Yeah.  The life of the logos in whose body the Heavenly Man finds his place.  ... what I am trying to say is principles seem to me to be the refraction of life. They seem to be dynamic structuring energies that are not consciousness, per se ... but give rise to the appearance of consciousness.  And normally, what I think happens, is we confuse consciousness with the dynamism that produced it.  I think that is normally what happens when we think about a particular level.  When we think about Buddhi we only think about Buddhic consciousness and we fail to think about what dynamism produced Buddhic consciousness. 

Beta:   ... the larger entity.

Alpha:   Sure.  Where it comes from is fine.  I don’t even care where it comes from.  I know it came from somewhere.

Beta:   Yeah, but the interesting thing then is that we are part of a larger constitution, which is fivefold or seven fold? ... and then when we look at the principle substance … and think of it as the principles themselves, the dynamisms.

Alpha:   ... which would be a mistake.

Beta:   ... a mistakeyes, and if we actually sorted out and realised that dynamism’s are planetary in nature.  For the time being they are holding us by the hand ... but as we identify with higher and higher states we will be autonomous and our identity will be focused and identified on the higher planes so we take that office or place in the (inaudible) body. … So in a way we are stuck sort of in between now recognising that we are part of the pranas of the Heavenly Man and the life aspect.

Alpha:  When you say the pranas of the Heavenly Man which specifically do you mean?

Beta:   I was just thinking about the quote that we read where at the third initiation the initiate becomes conscious of the pranas emanating from the Heavenly Man.  And that is not the energy emanating from the cosmic astral, two or the three emanating from the cosmic mental.  That doesn’t include those, but the third initiation does, however, include the pranas.

Alpha:   OK.   But the question, quite apart from the origins of these streams of energy with respect to our local system (which is a study all in itself), the questing has to be resolved in the simplest possible way at first.  Is a principle a dynamism, that is distinct from the consciousness that arises from it, quite apart from where that dynamism comes.  Is this a clear question?  And if this is a clear question, then this thing on page 264 is extremely important, dividing the twenty-one fundamental aspects of any being.

Beta:   These are the twenty-one modes of activity too.

Alpha:   Ah.  Is consciousness a mode of activity?  Or is consciousness the result ...

Beta:   No, the modes of activity are actually the third aspect that somehow manifest in twenty-one ways.  And then I think the twenty-one ways correspond to this.  You know, in Cosmic Fire, the twenty-one ways.

Alpha:   Yeah.   Sure there are twenty-one’s that are really important …

Beta:   And that just signifies that activity, intelligence is active. … Love-wisdom is still latent. … So the Vishnu aspect which all of our questions surround Vishnu and the Shiva aspects ...

Alpha:   Yes.  Exactly.  What we tried to do in this last half hour of discussion  ... OK, well, the point is .... what we tried to do is to separate out and recombine the Shiva and the Vishnu aspects, which are normally confused with each other.  As a matter of fact, when you take the positive, negative and neutral or the subject, the object and the relationship between, they are frequently confused with each other. And basically we’ve been at trying to  find out what a man  is, I mean by man any system within cosmos …

Gamma:   You could say atom also.

Alpha:   Yeah.   Man ... atom ... Heavenly Man, etc.  Now.  OK.  Quite apart from where the dynamism’s come, and we can find their sources (perhaps), we are at the point where we are preparing to move into the subject that was intended.

Delta:   Well we never really honoured that point because these are the different schools of Indian philosophy which is a footnote right through here.  In other words are we talking about monism, dualism, qualified dualism ....

Alpha:   Wait a second.   I don’t get where the question is coming from. 

Delta:   The whole theme of the discussion is, is the thing a unity, a duality, a triplicity ....or a qualified duality.  That was the whole theme of this discussion of the last hour ... or half-hour.  And those discussions are exploring the different schools of Indian  philosophy.  There is some footnote somewhere there in the book.  And we have to go into all that.  As to how each school makes its point, and so forth ...

Alpha:   Well, OK.  We will get to that.  Let’s look at the schools.  They are the school of logic, which is

Beta:   The schools are the principles we are talking about. (the footnote in on 285 lists the different schools.) 

Alpha:   I can tell you what they are.

Delta:   Yeah.  Well, how do we handle the principles, are they, separate principles or is there a total ...

Alpha:   Look, I’ll tell you what.  Handle it from the point of view of the seventh school, which is Atmavidya, which is the sort of theosophical or the total picture which combines them all.  Handle it from the point of view of the synthetic one.  OK.   But wait a second.  I am not sure why that is going to delay our entry into discussing a chakra system.

Delta:   Well, in other words you are trying to say, does a basic principle interact with matter producing consciousness?  So far as I understand it.  Or, is there a basic consciousness that is all-pervading to begin with?

Alpha:   Both.  Both.

Beta:   Or, we have to point to the definitions we did of mahabhuta’s, and tanmantras, Is there a qualified dualism where there is basic principle and then there are two types of prakriti namely the tanmantras, the subtle essence of prakriti and the bhutas, the (inaudible). 

Alpha:   Yeah.  Well, I am not sure why....   I am still not sure why we have to clarify that in order to ...

Beta:   The six schools are the six principles.  And this has to be within the body of a Planetary Logos.

Alpha:   Well, look.  You, know.  You can correlate these with different rays.  I have done this.  That the Gnosis...

Delta:   I agree.  If we can get to the Gnosis aspect, that is the best thing.  The footnote is on page 285.    The different schools.  So maybe we can just leave it at that with some sort of closure. 

Beta:   Oh.  Let me add just one more thing, which is a graphic and may tie a lot of this together.  It’s the picture of  Brahma as the creator of the universe but if we want to separate the prakritic, the chakric and or the prakritic, the consciousness and psychic aspect of the ... spirit aspect.  And Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva we have them all depicted here.  In the body of Brahma himself … this is Brahma on a lotus ... also four-faced Brahma ... but the Rishis are all made to be chakras in the body of the five kumara’s, are infants in the head centres.  The Shiva aspect are the seven centres above the head (or the five , the esoteric seven, the five active).  The seven centres that are models for the seven centres in the body who are all depicted by Rishis.

Delta:   Those are the Great Bear. 

Beta:   The Rishis, right as Chakras.

Alpha:   Well Rishis are called the Great Bear, but Rishis is a generic term. … I saw that the seven Rishis on the fourth, the buddhic plane …

Delta:   If you look at The Tradition of the Seven Rishis by John E Mitchiner, He goes through all this stuff in the Indian tradition in terms of the seven Rishis and how it appears.  But it is all in terms of the Brahma aspect of divinity.  Which is all Hinduism goes into in general ... 

Alpha:   In other words you are saying that the Rishis as they are listed here are Brahmic, hence can be found within matter?

Delta:   Yes.  According to the Hindu tradition.  Not necessarily according to the Alice Bailey tradition.

Beta:   However, in the Brahma aspect you have Vishnu and Shiva.   And that is all we can see in our solar system.  Because we have only one seventh part of a Solar Logos  … it embodies all three (inaudible).....

Alpha:   Well the Vishnu and Brahma is grown up ... Vishnu and Shiva are not.

Beta:   Brahma though is always the solar system, at the systemic level.  And if we are dealing with seven solar planes this is it because Brahma, the solar system itself, is a Bramanda or an egg of Brahma. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  And do you include the astral plane and the lower mental plane in Brahma? … So basically it does not....

Beta:   Exactly.  That is the whole point.  The Vishnu aspects are the chakras, the psychic aspect which operate through the chakras in relationship to the dense physical body which could be a physical solar system.

Delta:   This Vishnu aspect is the five kumaras.

Beta:   ... or the Brahma aspect and the seven lower planes but which could also be divided into the three lowest planes, that would be the dense vehicle.  The four higher planes would be the etheric vehicle (as depicted in the body of Brahma).  The Vishnu aspect is reflected in the etheric system and then the Shiva aspect in the etheric system is reflected in the kumara.  So they want to deal in terms of the schemes in the, uh, chakric level.  This puts the Shiva, the Vishnu and the Brahma all into one.  The Brahma aspect would be the (inaudible) ....and the aspects of the physical body.  But, the Vishnu would be the chakric system.

Delta:   Shall we continue after dinner?

 

(Tape turned off.)

 

Alpha:  We are summarising before supper.  I guess we wanted to understand a chakric system  ...that can reflect schemes, chains and globes, and what we can see of them.  (Inaudible) ... the schemes chains and globes are not visible to us physically like constellations in the sky. …

Beta:   So I guess, between schemes, chains and rounds we might think of that as psychic .....and the and systems level, visible systems level, dense physical. 

Alpha:   It is somewhat psychic, but it is also prakritic.

Beta:   And we do see some ether in behind the physical, at least the fourth ether.

Alpha:   Yeah.  And we also want to know the limitations of the chakras.  See this is a very important thing.  Because it is quite possible to look at the chakras and say that they are everything.  You have a system, there are these seven things there and they are everything.  But, what I have been trying to point out is, how far the chakras really go within the system of which they are part.

Beta:   Right.  I think, if you put seven head centres, seven centres above the head, you have a Shiva system. … seven centres in the body, you have the Vishnu system , and the body itself … is the Brahma system.  The etheric system, the seven chakras also is three fold if it includes the meridians and nadis.  But then the cellular level is Brahma.  And we are cells in the body of the Heavenly Man.  Does that say something Brahmic about us or something Vishnu about us?  I think it says something Brahmic. … For me that is the manasaputra level.  The lowest level of our causal body, of our causal nature.  With Agnishvattas the central, and Manasadevas the higher.

Alpha:   Well, OK, in order to manipulate all those terms we have to remember what they all are.

Beta:   So. ... to be continued ...

Delta:   ... to be continued.

 

(tape turned off)

 

Beta:   Well the Solar Logos is a cell in the body of the OAWNMBS. 

Alpha:  (He is both a chakra, cell, and an atom … he uses all those terms chakra, cell and atom.)

Beta:   I am just trying to frame it.  The Solar Logos we know reincarnates like humans do.  Each time it reincarnates it creates a solar system ... a physical system.  So, on the systemic level and our seven planes of the systemic level, all we  have are the pranas that come from the chakras.  We don’t have the chakras themselves.  We have the body and we might have the ...

Alpha:   Well, slow down there for a second.  Cause I am not sure that we follow what you just said. … He said we have all the pranas that come from the chakras but not the chakras themselves. 

Beta:   Maybe that is not correct.  … We know the solar logos is a cosmic entity ... a greater cosmic entity.  The Planetary Logos is a cosmic entity.  So they are cosmic and they extend up into the cosmic, but, if you want to put the Solar Logos and the cosmic entity into the systemic planes, you can do it this way ... (and this is the only way I can see) because then this deals with all of the etheric levels on the systemic plane.  You put the Shiva aspect on the top, the seven head centres, they’re etheric, and you have etheric centres, and you have a physical dense body.  So then you have the dense Brahma body on the first three planes, two and a half planes.  … You have the Vishnu aspect through the ethers.  And you have the Kumara aspect, the Shiva aspect through to the highest ethers.

Alpha:   ... the highest ethers? ... or, the atomic ether?

Beta:   It could be atomic.

Alpha:   That is the division known as 1-3-3. 

Gamma:   How is that different from the cosmic level?

Beta:   On the cosmic level we have three mental energies, two astral and then seven pranas.  Three of the mental, you know, so then we have the causal body and mental associated with Sirius.  Sirius is fivefold and reflects through the fivefold kumaras.  …

Alpha:   I think the rate of speed [of Beta’s explanation] has to be about one-fifth, Seriously.  In other words, everything hangs together, but the speed has to be slowed down and then us dense heads will ‘get it’.  No,  it is true ...  Now you are dealing with people here that have the studied the stuff for a long time, think about what is happening when you speak ...

Beta:   ... this is only a specialisation for me too, I mean it is something that I concentrate on.

Alpha:   I am just talking about delivery and connection. … it just speed.  It’s coherent.   

(tape paused)

Alpha:   Now we are really losing it.

(many voices)

Delta:   610-611 …  talks about how this is an impossible mystery and goes into ...

Alpha:    My, God ...we are going to be so high. We have to be simple ...

Delta:   Let’s go to dinner, and proceed after.  Mercury is stationary.  We will have a really exciting time. 

Alpha:   OK.   610 and 611, fohat.

Gamma:   Fohat?

Beta:   Yes.

Gamma:   Oh, my God.

Alpha:   Gamma, you brought that up!  I was trying to keep the f-word out of this. 

Gamma:   This is you know (inaudible) happening.

Alpha:   Now we are done. 

 

(tape turned off)

 

Alpha:   This is after supper on the second day....and we are waiting for Delta and Beta to return so, just an attempt to summarize a little what we discussed immediately before supper ....

We spent a great deal of time trying to determine the nature of principles, since we wanted to look at a chakra in the human system and a planet in a solar system, and determine what is the place of this chakra and this planet in their respective types of men.  We thought we better take a look at what a man is (either a normal human man or a planetary man or a solar man).  We figured we better know what a principle is, so we turned to page 262 of Cosmic Fire and discussed the idea of principles.

At first I had been entertaining the idea that principles were of the consciousness aspect of divinity, because indeed there are many principles, such as buddhi or manas, kama-manas and so forth, which seem to suggest that principles are reflective of the second aspect of divinity.  But then (especially from page 264), it began to dawn on me that there are really twenty-one factors to consider in a human being.  The sevenfold objectivity, which are the material forms; the sevenfold subjectivity, which is the psychic evolution; and the sevenfold spirituality, which is the life of the entity. And usually spirituality is not divided into seven, because we are not yet in the third solar system where there is a differentiation in spirituality.  Usually it is considered to be a unity. 

Anyway, we differentiated the seven aspects of spirituality and began to think that maybe principles were dynamisms coming from the first aspect of divinity.  And that in fact, principles were the spirit, sort of modes of motion or modes of activity, or dynamics, from the spirit interacting with receptive prakriti and producing consciousness.  So that the various principles as they are listed, (they are listed in so many different ways), but just to give you an idea of how they are listed on page 263, we have active intelligence, then love wisdom, then atma, then buddhi, then manas, and even two higher are suggested, the life of the Heavenly Man in whose body the human monad finds a place , and then the next higher, the life of the Logos in whose body the Heavenly Man finds his place.  Now all of these are considered to be principles, of subdivisions of monadic influence.  And we figured that for each one of these there is a corresponding kind of consciousness.  So the analysis was that atma is a principle, but atma is a dynamism which, interactive with the appropriate kind of prakriti on the atmic plane produces the kind of sentiency that we might call atmic consciousness, and so forth, on down the line. 

So that was one rather extensive discussion, and the purpose of it all was to work out what is going on in any systemic man, whether it happens to be a human man or, in this case, the solar man.  All of this is tending towards the purpose of trying to look at the human chakra system and the human constitution of principles, and then extend that to the solar system, or the solar man, which will reveal to us, perhaps, the place of the planets. 

Some other time was spent at looking at some of the planets and seeing where they would be placed in the solar system, and we did look at Venus, Mars, Pluto and Earth and figured that one of the ways of thinking about them would be to place Venus as a logoic solar plexus, Mars as a logoic sacral centre, Pluto in terms of the base of the spine, and Earth possibly in the etheric position [spleen as pranic function].  We were beginning to discuss the heart centre and/or the throat centre and try to find a place for the other planets, all of this in order to shed light on our own chakric system, and vice versa. 

The goal, perhaps, tonight ... is to look at the human chakric system and to find the correspondences in the higher solar system.  So, one of the things we started to look at, if were to start from the human point of view, is how the chakras unfold. 

Delta:   Well, if I can just be an organising principle for a moment, we’ve already decided on the lower quaternary of the solar system. … Let’s go through the heart, the throat, the ajna and the crown, finish that off. And that obviously will reflect all the beings of the solar system to  some extent.  And have a tentative set of rulerships looking at that. 

Alpha:   OK.  That reminds me of another thing that I was summarising before you came in. … What did we say ... Jupiter for the heart, and we started to talk about it but we didn’t go much further.  And then of course there is the question of the higher solar plexus and the lower solar plexus.

Delta:   Let is just keep it to the simple seven for the moment, and finish that off and then go back to the minor centers.

Alpha:   We are already going to be beyond the simple seven because in order to include all the planets we are going to have to go into the head.  In other words, we have to include the ajna centre, the heart within the head, and the greater head centre.  We are going to have to do that in order to find the planets we need. 

One point that maybe should be reiterated is, when you are looking at the Solar Logos and the Planetary Logoi you are looking at the sun and the seven brothers or whatever.  And we decided that each one of them has its own principles.  That Venus has its astral body, mental body, just like the sun has its astral body and mental body, and that Venus is not any of those bodies per se.  Or that Jupiter is not any of those bodies per se.  Jupiter has its own principles.  Every planet has its own principles.  And the sun, as its own kind of being the Solar Logos is not any of the Planetary Logoi and, in fact, has its own principles.  I mean, this has important implications for the glib kind of assignment of the Planetary Logoi to the principles of the Solar Logos.

Epsilon:   But they remain to be the chakras of the ...

Alpha:   Yes, they may very well remain to be the chakras and associated with the principles of the Solar Logos, but are not the principles of the Solar Logos.  In other words look at it this way, the Solar Logos has its own form of life and so does Jupiter and so does Venus and so does all the others. So that is its own; it belongs to it.  You see, it is so easy to confuse that ...

Delta:   So lets list the rest of the chakras in the sun, and that obviously has implications for all the other planets and beings and whatever.

Alpha:   OK.   … well starting from the top down ...which is easier ...

Delta:   OK.   Let’s start from the top down … this is just tentative rulership.

Alpha:   Neptune represents the heart centre within the head centre.  And it represents pure reason, and buddhi and the most powerful of the planets (I assume) in our solar system because of its second ray nature, because it has a cosmic monadic second ray nature (which is in Esoteric Psychology somewhere around page 420 ...)

Delta:   Neptune is the heart within the head ... and the rest of the head ...

Beta:   ... is Jupiter. 

Alpha:   Well.  ... here is the point.  We have to do something with Uranus; Uranus has association with the head.  I am thinking when I think about the other aspects of that head centre. … I said Neptune was connected with the twelve petalled lotus.  To me it is connected with the twelve petals ... at least that is a reasonable hypothesis, I think.  And Uranus with the rest of the 960 petals which apparently (... on page 168) are secondary, although it depends on how you look at it.  Up until yesterday or today and close reading of page 168, I always thought that the thousand petalled lotus was more important than the twelve that are found within it.  But apparently the ...

(end of side 9a).

Alpha:   So the interesting thing is that although Uranus you might say is the most powerful planet in general and somehow has its head centre, you might say, pointed towards the Sun.  Still we are in a second ray solar system and so Neptune maybe has specially prominent place.  …

Gamma:   Uranus sometimes linked to the sacral centre. 

Alpha:   It is  linked to the sacral centre.  And it has influence on the sacral centre, but I am trying to see which particular position is most characteristic.

Delta:   So what about the ajna chakra.

Alpha:   OK.   Now ....see we got to see what we are leaving out, or leaving in.  Probably Mercury  ....you see, we have the alta major centre too.  And we have Vulcan to deal with.  And this is where it gets difficult, you know, for me, frankly.  We have the throat centre, alta major centre, and ajna centre remaining …

Delta:   What about Saturn for the throat.

Alpha:   Well ...it is certainly possible to take Saturn for the throat. 

Gamma:   And also Saturn for the alta major. 

Alpha:   Well, you see...

Beta:   That is true ... esoteric & exoteric.

Alpha:   Saturn for the alta major.  Both?

Gamma:   I mean one would be throat ....

Beta:   ... this was Dany’s idea too.

Gamma:   Yeah.

Alpha:   Well Saturn definitely rules the alta major in the sense of the three synthesising planets.  For instance, if you wanted to put it like this, that Uranus rules the whole head centre, and Neptune, the ajna centre, Saturn would rule the alta major centre.

Delta:   I have this: Pluto, base of the spine; Mars, sacral; Venus, solar plexus; Jupiter, heart; Uranus, spleen. …

Alpha:   There is a problem with the base of the spine.  … The three in the middle are problematic.  There is reason to put Mercury at the throat centre or at the ajna centre.  There is reason to put Saturn at the alta major centre. Vulcan is a problem.  Vulcan has to do with the throat centre, you can find a way perhaps to relate it to the ajna centre.  So I really don’t know what to do with it there.  And I think we should maybe explore that.  You can justify Saturn—throat.  Here is my problem with Saturn—throat.

Delta:   Let’s put Vulcan—throat.

Alpha:   Vulcan rules the parathyroids and it is connected with Taurus.   

Delta:   That was the part of Taurus over the astral.  This is on page 78 of Esoteric Astrology.

Gamma:    So this is the astral side of the throat.

Alpha:   Yeah.  But it is not the astral … It doesn’t say astral centres.

Gamma:   No it is the astral.  You know, when you raise ...I am saying when you raise the sacral centre ... the astral part of sacral centre ... you get into the parathyroids.  And this is a transitory centre which is between the astral and the mental, see?

Delta:   It says:  “The five centres up the spine are related to the five non-sacred planets, but in unevolved or average man, are focussed almost entirely upon the astral plane and in the astral body.”

Alpha:   Yeah.  The five centres are focused on the astral plane, but what does that mean? That they are the astral centres or just that they are bringing through astral energy?

Delta:   Well ... if someone is always on the astral plane I would imagine they are controlled more by the astral centres, and less so by the etheric centres.

Alpha:   Well, DK says that the etheric centres take in all manner of energy.  It just depends that your etheric body is carrying the kind of energy of where you are polarised.  So if you are polarised astrally your etheric centres are carrying astral energy.  If you are polarised mentally your etheric centres are carrying mental energy.  It is not just saying the astral centres are the ones that are involved in … in other words, I am finding difference between that and page 51 of Esoteric Healing, where he gives you the astral centres.  See, the etheric (and I don’t fully understand this) the etheric body apparently can carry energy from all different kinds of levels.

Beta:   Isn’t that interesting.

Epsilon:   At page 79 he says something about Vulcan.  Do you want to hear it?

Alpha:   Well, this one I know.  This is what he just said.  [Esoteric Astrology, page 79]:  “This centre in the front of the throat falls into disuse as the creative period of throat activity begins.  It acts as a "mediator" between the higher and the lower creative organs”   OK.  

Delta:   Let’s just throw Vulcan in here just for the sake of argument.

Alpha:   Look, there are some people who put Vulcan as ruler of the twelve petalled head centre. 

Delta:   Well, if everything is etheric in nature and Vulcan, rules the etheric ....

Beta:   I would much rather put it with alta major …

Gamma:   There is one quote about the throat centre, that the throat centre is double. When he talks about the  plexus, he says, the plexus is the only one which is double, and then he says the throat centre is double. 

Alpha:   Does it relate to the fact of these parathyroids … is that correct..?  So, it would have to have an etheric correspondence, and hence is double?  Are there two parathyroid glands?

Epsilon:   Yeah.  That is what he says on page 78, last line.

Alpha:   OK.  So as the throat centre is to the thyroid gland, the etheric parathyroid centres are to the parathyroid glands.  There is a triangle here.  Well, you know that the thyroid gland controlled by the throat, so here are the parathyroids, so they must have an etheric counterpart too.  So Vulcan maybe rules that.

Epsilon:   It doesn’t ...

Beta:   It is a temporary centre ...

Gamma:   What I think is that Vulcan rules the parathyroids and Saturn the other one. 

Alpha:   Now, but Beta just said an interesting thing: let’s put Vulcan in the position of the alta major, why?

Beta:   Because it is a transferring centre like the pranic centre between the shoulder blades transfers energies at a certain stage and bridges a certain gap.

Gamma:   It is a physical centre.

Beta:   Yeah.  And the same would be, alta major.  And then same with the centre above the head, it is a transferring centre.  These are all transferring centres.

Alpha:   ... centre above the head ... is that the crown centre, or something else?

Beta:   I think that is something else, actually.

Alpha:   So we need to differentiate.

Delta:   I just want to leave you with two things Epsilon brought up ...earlier.

Alpha:   ... the two many petalled lotuses. Yes, and don’t forget that Vulcan is given rulership over the head centre for disciples.  And this is something that we really can’t afford to forget.

Delta:   Where does it say that?

Alpha:   Page 517 of Esoteric Astrology …

Delta:   Oh yeah, the first ray, this is the first ray.  I got it.

Alpha:   But this is in a man and, you see, Vulcan and the Sun are one, Vulcan is the source of spiritual will.  Vulcan, men of will and Shamballa are connected with Vulcan.  Obviously, Vulcan is in the head.

Epsilon:   You know he says here, Vulcan is related to the parathyroid ... and not to the thyroid which is related to the throat centre.  As if the parathyroid were not related to the throat centre.

Gamma:   You know this is an intermediary centre which occurs during the transfer.

Epsilon:   So that wouldn’t do to put Vulcan with the throat centre.

Delta:   I have some quotes, for Vulcan, 675 of Esoteric Astrology: "Jehovah was identified with Saturn and Vulcan." (S. D. I. G32.)  So it shows the similarity between the two.  Also, page 386:  “This is in reality a reference to the art of Vulcan who rules the inner man and guides his fashioning.”

Alpha:   I left out an important centre, however, I left out a centre that we have been talking about all afternoon: the etheric counterpart to the seven head centres.  There should be a planet that rules seven head centres as a totality. … So Vulcan has to be in the head.  So, if it is connected with the parathyroids it is secondary.  It is a secondary function.  … A secondary creative function because it is connected with Taurus ... and with the fact that the throat centre is a form creating centre.  But we want to get higher Vulcan here.

Gamma:   That is why we give Vulcan a fourth ray.

Alpha:   Yeah.  ... so where did we read the idea that the seven head centres were an etheric centre as a whole that were not the same as the two many-petalled lotuses?  There were a couple places that we read about that.

Delta:   That was in Cosmic Fire.

Alpha:   Do you remember where?  Well, what I am trying to say is we have another possible activity within the head that should take a planet.

Delta:   Well I guess what I am hoping for, for the moment, is just to assign the seven major chakras.

Alpha:   But, then you are going to miss out planets.

Delta:   Yes.  But at least we will have an initial base, tentative working system, even though incomplete. 

Epsilon:   Do you make a difference between the seven head centres within the head and those above the head?

Alpha:   Yes.  Right here on page  88 of Esoteric Astrology … Which is the same as 169 in Cosmic Fire,  and 170.  OK, look, seven head centres are analogous to the Great Bear.  So you tell me what planet rules the Great Bear as a whole.  Is it Uranus or Vulcan?  Ah, they are the controlling centres ...

Delta:   Page 183 of Cosmic Fire:  “The sevenfold head centre in its turn finds ultimate expression in the gorgeous twofold centre above the top of the head and surrounding it.”

Alpha:   OK.  I think I have the solution.  The seven head centres in the head control the chakras, the other chakras in the lower system.  They are called the master centres, right?  OK.  The seven head centres are Great Bear related.  … it has to do with spiritual will.  Spiritual will dominates the lower centres, so Vulcan has a place within the head, Uranus has a place within the head, Neptune has a place within the head.  And I would propose to you that the seven head centres, which are master centres, centres of will, have to either be Vulcan or Uranus, and I wouldn’t mind seeing them related to Vulcan, for the moment, hypothetically. 

Delta:   Centres (writes on blackboard) Vulcan, or Uranus.  And that is very interesting too because the main thrust in terms of suggesting the Sun and Moon veiling planets is either or Vulcan or Uranus, and of course, in any horoscope the Sun and Moon and given pride and place of interpretation . So he is saying that Vulcan or Uranus should be given pride or place of interpretation.

Alpha:   It is spiritual will ... you see, How does spiritual will function?  From whence  does spiritual will function in the head?  On page 50 of Esoteric Astrology:  “The Great Bear … Aries … Sun veiling Vulcan …  Libra”  The Great Bear is always the head centres.  The Great Bear stands for the seven head centres.  And they are the Cosmic Manu.  And they are the controlling, dominating first ray centre. 

            So there is some sort of master organ in the head that is sevenfold, that controls the lower chakras.  And I am saying that since it is listed here, page 88 of Esoteric Astrology, as one of the three major centres in the initiate up to the fifth degree, we had better include it.

            But the question is, what are they controlling?  They are in control, the two big chakras, are they?  They are not going to control the many petalled lotuses are they? (Whichever the many petalled lotuses are.)  But, what could they control?  If they are in the head they could control: alta major, throat, heart, solar plexus, sacral, spleen, base of the spine.  You could also say that they should control the ajna centre.  The point is, there are seven, it says the Great Bear is the seven centres of OAWNMBS.  So take it all the way down on to the lower level.  And you have seven head centres being Great Bear correlated and they are master centres.  And in the Law of the Supplementary Seven, it’s the same …

Gamma:   In those seven, yes the spleen is in the head, because in Esoteric Healing he talks about the spleen being used in healing, the spleen in the head.

Delta:   In one of the diagrams it goes into the head too, doesn’t it?

Gamma:   Right Yes. 

Alpha:   Basically what we have here is a version of the seven, the two, plus one.  Somehow.

Gamma:   But I doubt that the alta major and ajna belong to those seven head centres … Because they have this triangle which seems to be separate, you know.

Alpha:   Well can we count seven in some way, if you want to split the solar plexus we can count seven.  The point is we can’t make this correlation exactly.  But, we know there are seven controlling centres in the head and the seven centres in the head and the seven centres in the head control seven other chakras in the torso. 

Gamma:   At one place he talks about the four minor centre controlling the four lower centres.

Alpha:   Yeah.  That is right.  Four minor centres in the head, page 88 right?  He says, the seven head centres … Wait:  “The head, i.e., the four lesser centres and their synthesis, the ajna centre.”  Whoa!  Well.  OK. 

Beta:   That  is why the mental vehicle is so powerful … the Ajna is related to the mental vehicle because it synthesises the four lesser centres  ...

Alpha:   Right.  And it relates the spiritual triad too.  And it relates to the whole personality when considering the synthesis of soul and personality.  And it even relates to the whole matter aspect, why that is personality.  It says on page...

Beta:   Well the effect of the work of the Kumaras is psychic.  ... even though it is manas ...

Delta:   Can I read, in White Magic ... the bottom of 437.

“When, through meditation and service, plus the discipline of the lunar bodies, a man comes consciously and definitely under his soul ray, they he comes as definitely under the influence of one or other of the seven solar systems, as they focus their energy through one or other of the constellations and subsequently one or other of the seven sacred planets. Eventually, there will be twelve sacred planets, corresponding to the twelve constellations, but the time is not yet.  Our solar system, as you know, is one of seven. When a man has arrived at this point in evolution, birth months, mundane astrology, and the influences which play upon the form aspect become of less and less importance. This circle of solar systems affects paramountly the soul and it becomes the focal point of spiritual energies.  This is the problem of the soul on its own plane, responsiveness to these types of energy, and, of them, the personality is totally unaware.  The signs which fall therefore into the four categories of earth, water, fire and air ...”

And that is the traditional way of assigning the chakra rulerships ... and also if you notice, the lower creative hierarchies are assigned that way also. 

“… into the four categories of earth, water, fire and air, concern primarily the man who lives below the diaphragm, and who utilises the lower four centres: the centre at the base of the spine, the sacral centre, the solar plexus and the spleen.  The inner group of seven major or systemic energies produce their effect upon the man who is living above the diaphragm, and work through the seven representative centres in the head.  Four of them focus through the throat centre, the heart centre, the ajna and head centres.  Three are held latent in the region of the head centres (the thousand petalled lotus) and only enter into functioning activity after the third initiation.”

                “It will be evident therefore how complicated from the standpoint of the horoscope (as well as of the individual problem) is this meeting of the energies of two types of constellations in the case of the man who is neither purely human nor purely spiritual.  The ordinary horoscope is negated.  The horoscope is not possible as yet of delineation.  The only horoscope, which is basically and almost infallibly correct is that of the entirely low grade human being who lives entirely below the diaphragm and is governed by his animal nature alone.

Astrologers must remember also that there are several undiscovered planets which are producing pulls and shifts and focussing streams of energy upon our earth which tend to complicate the problem still further.”

So this is why it is so important for us to try and get this together because this is totally different than the normal horoscope and is a total shift in frame of reference.

Alpha:   Well, give us the three, four centres, ajna, throat, heart and solar plexus?  What were the four?

Delta:   Well it says four of them focus through the throat centre: the heart, ajna, and head centres. 

Alpha:   You don’t suppose that these seven centres, Are they in the head or above the head? 

Epsilon:  Four of them ...

Delta:   And three are held latent until the third initiation.

Epsilon:   They speak of seven major or systemic energies and four of those of major system energies focus through the throat centre, the heart, the ajna and the head centres, and three ‘for monad’, three are held latent in the region of the head centres, the thousand petalled lotus.  So, is three types of energies. 

Alpha:   Three are held latent in the region of the ...

Epsilon:   ... head centres ... “the thousand petalled lotus”, and only enter into functioning activity after the third initiation.

Gamma:   I think those three are alta major, head and ajna, that is what they say?

Alpha:  Yeah, but I am confused here because it says head centres ... It says there are seven head centres?  Does it say it there, Delta read the word head centres. Did he not say seven head centres? And did it say they are in the head or above the head or what?

Delta:   I think it just says seven head centres.

(several comments)

Delta:   It says ... “through the seven representative centres in the head”.

Alpha:   ... in the head ...

Epsilon:   “The inner group of seven major or systemic energies produce their effect upon the man who is living above the diaphragm, and work through the seven representative centres in the head.”  We call them the seven representative centres in the head.  ... ‘four of them’  and so on ... ‘of those energies’ .

Alpha:   Yeah.  And then it says that it controls, of all things, throat, heart, ajna ...

Epsilon:   ... and head centres ... He doesn’t say control he says “four of them focus” ...

Alpha:   That is enough.  Elsewhere it says that they are controlling centres.  Look .... let’s take up Initiation Human and Solar right here.

Delta:   This, by the way, bears on the triangles listed on page 88 in Esoteric Astrology, and 168 … Can I just lock in one  thought since we are so far along these lines with this quote, let’s let Alpha get this … So, in other words it said four of the centres are operating, in the advanced person until the third initiation.  And then at that point the other three come in.  Now the triangles listed on 169-170, in Cosmic Fire, specifically, and here, Esoteric Astrology, page 88:

4.             “Man partially controlled by the ego, advanced man.
a.             The heart.
b.             The throat.
c.             The head, i.e., the four lesser centres and their synthesis, the ajna centre.”

So, I am just trying to hammer home the identical point.

Beta:   Yeah.  Let me point that out ... One says the alta ... one says the ajna … 170 says the alta centre.

Gamma:   Ohhh, You are right.  Thank you. I am sorry.  Wow.

Gamma:   Wait a minute.

Delta:   There is a misquote there.  Hey, great, caught DK in another mistake.

Alpha:   Oh, not necessarily, they just transposed this to Esoteric Astrology from Cosmic Fire. That is correct. …

Delta:   The alta centre is a synthesis centre of the four lowers, Ok?  Whereas the ajna … is the synthesis centre also.

Beta:   I think the alta is more related to the fourfold and the ajna to the fivefold, in some way.

Alpha:   That sounds right.  Because karma is said to be, you know Malvin Artley’s article about the release of karma through the alta major centre and its rulership by Saturn, Lord of Karma.  He gave a whole kind of anatomical description of how the repository of images is released through the alta major centre at a certain point when karma has to be faced.  So I am just correlating that with the number four and with Saturn. 

Delta:   I agree.  I think also the original printing of it was alta. 

Alpha:   Yeah.

Delta:   So,  this repeats what is on page 438 in Treatise on White Magic, then repeats it again on number five, spiritual man to the third initiation: the heart, the throat, the seven head centres now come alive, which is what it said to the third Initiation, all seven are operative.

Alpha:   Oh, by the way, Great Bear, Sirius and Pleiades become accessible after the third initiation.  There is a trinity available that corresponds with the three head centres.  Wow seven solar systems.  Oh, you know what?   OK.  This is all about seven solar systems influencing seven head centres which, three of which head centres become available after the third initiation.  And it seems to me that the three great constellations (Great Bear, Sirius and Pleiades) would be the rulers of those head centres. …

Delta:   Let me just finish one more thing and I am done.  I am trying to lock onto the same point in a particular way.  Then number six was spiritual man to the fifth initiation, says the heart, the seven head centres, and then it says the two many petalled lotuses which of course are the ones listed a few pages later on page 183.  And it says, this last one, page 178, it says these three which we just mentioned:  “....covers the totally of the time remaining in the one hundred years of Brahma, or the remainder of the process of manifestation.”

                        So having finished with that one point, go on to what you wanted to …

Alpha:   OK.   Well all I was going to do was more head centres.  And I was simple going to say, in rule eight (pages 200-201 in Initiation Human and Solar):

        “When the disciple nears the portal, the Greater Seven must awaken and bring forth response from the lesser seven upon the double circle.

        “This rule is a very difficult one, and one which holds in it the elements of danger for the man who undertakes too early to tread the final path.  Literally it can be interpreted thus:  The would-be initiate must develop somewhat the vibration of the seven head centres, and thus sweep into increased vibratory activity the seven centres in the body upon the etheric plane; affecting the seven head centres in the body upon the etheric plane; affecting also, through reciprocal vibration, the seven physical centres which are inevitably stimulated when the etheric centres approach their maximum vibration  It is not necessary to enlarge upon this point beyond pointing out that as the seven centres within the head become responsive to the Ego the following seven centres’

1.       The head, considered as a unit,

2.       The heart,

3.       The throat,

4.       The solar plexus,

5.       The base of the spine,

6.       The spleen,

7.        The organs of generation

 

are also affected along the line of purification and control.”

 

So the seven centres controlled by the seven head centres are here listed.  … We go to the other one on page 438 ... (Treatise on White Magic).

Alpha:   OK.   Well, this is very important, because we have just been told what these head centres control and one of the shocking things is that it controls the head considered as a unit.  Now what does that mean?  That is why I asked whether these centres were above the head ... or in the head.

Delta:   Well it lists the organs of generation as a centre, too.

Alpha:   Well, the organs of generation is strange enough, it should be the sacral centre unless there is some blind there.

Delta:   No, somewhere he says that the heart and the organs of generation have a life unto themselves ...

(Many voices.)

Gamma:   It is the physical aspect.  I think he talks about the glands here when he says it has the seven physical centres … you know the seven centres are not physical centres except alta major is a physical centre and I think the pineal is  ...  he talks about the glands. 

Alpha:   But not entirely.  This is not all glands.  Because otherwise it would be thymus and thyroid ... and pancreas ... and gonad ... and so forth.

Epsilon:   But Alpha, does he say that the seven head centres synthesize?  It seems to me that he says that when they are developed ... it allows a development of the others.  He goes in the other direction, it seems to me, in what you read.  Doesn’t he? 

Beta:   There is something in Esoteric Healing that says the same thing.  That all the lower centres are synthesised into the head centres.  They are transferred, their energy is transferred into the head centres at one point.

Alpha:   Well, in a way that is a bit like the seven Heavenly Man being transported to the Great Bear. 

Beta:   Oh, yeah, but, it is actually some thing more interesting.  I’ll look for it, you keep on going on  ...

Alpha:   OK.   But Epsilon, it may be that the seven lesser centres are functioning in their own way, but when the disciple nears the portal the greater seven must awaken and bring forth a certain kind of response from the lesser seven on the double circle.  In other words, maybe there is a jewel in each centre and maybe when the centres in the head connect … ah, here’s a very good quote.  What about Vulcan being the lord of the mineral kingdom, and what about him controlling the jewel in the lotus and what about the lesser centres having a jewel aspect in them, the first aspect within the lesser centres.  And that kind of response is what is awakened in the lower centres?

Epsilon:   Ah-haa.  The jewel aspect.

Beta:   I can read, actually it is Letters on Occult Meditation ... page 74-75.  You are right, the five periods:

“ ... in the head centre are seven centres (three major and four minor) and that these centres directly correspond to one or other centre in the body.  They are the synthesis, and on the stimulation of their corresponding centre, receive themselves a corresponding acquisition of rotary power.”

So the head centres become rotary, develop the third aspect when there is a connection made with their lower correspondence.  Of course, in Esoteric Healing, he says that the healer’s … seven head centres need to be related to their lower correspondences and that way you can transfer energies from the diseased part, the head, heart, or throat ... but the head also has seven centres.  And you can, ah, they have the correspondences, it is very important to establish a link there.  But he says in Healing that if you concentrate (in a healing session) on sending the energy out through the top of the head it can kill the patient.  So, it is important to keep ... or withdraw that energy from the lower chakra or from the heart (if it is in the head, heart, or throat), that you take the energy into the head, and that means that if the problems in the head then you have to take in into one of the seven head centres.  But it has to be maintained within the ring pass not ...

Alpha:   What is the location?  ... does it have anything to do with eyes, ears, mouth?

Beta:   One thing I should say ... I think that the reason I put these vertically ... is ... there’s another reason. … Scores of schools of yoga philosophy put chakras stacked up above the head.  The Buddhist system does the same, stacks enormous number of chakras above the head and including Deities, all of which have chakras as well.  But,  that is another reason I think the seven head centres can be considered as being vertically arranged.  And in that way they would be arranged with auric envelopes related to principles, or sheathes. … Seven sheathes or seven principles.  That is why I put those arcs up. 

Alpha:   That is quite an astounding thought.  And it complexifies.  Holy Moses!  Does that make a set of fourteen fold constitution of man?  I mean you know how that fourteen is always showing up, and if you are stacking the seven above the head, you have seven below ...

Epsilon:   ... you make an analogy between principle and sheathes.  You said seven principles are fused.

Beta:   Yeah.  Because well, the Buddhic body, eventually has to focus through a Buddhic vehicle.  For us it is the causal body, and that is why there is such tremendous emphasis on the fourth chakra up, the twelve petalled lotus in the head of the seven head centres.

Alpha:   OK.   This has to be drawn.

Beta:   It may be distinct from the twelve petalled lotus in the head, and discussed just by itself. 

Alpha:   So basically, what we have done here is we have learned of the importance of seven head centres.  We have seen the proposition in how DK often talks about the seven centres in the head, and Beta is proposing that they could be stacked up, above the head.

Epsilon:  But it could be the other one because there are seven within the head, and are there seven above the head?

Beta:   It could be, so, twenty-one.

Epsilon:   So we are maybe speaking of two sets of seven? Where do you get the three?

Beta:   ... the normal centres; so you have twenty-one there.

Alpha:   Beta, would you do us a favor and will you copy this so we can make a Xerox of this.

Beta:   Already did that, and you can enlarge this; it’s a good drawing.

Gamma:   You know I have drawn this thing here and you have here the soul, and you have the eye of the soul.  OK.  ... but, where would be the other seven within the head. 

Beta:   Well they would have to be somewhere in the ... triangle, maybe, it could be a quaternary associated with that.  The quaternary could be associated with the alta.  I don’t know.  The Brahmarandra is discussed as being separate from the single head centre, in some place … probably Treatise on White Magic.

Alpha:   One of the things that is quite extraordinary about this is that control by the seven centres, one of the controls, is of the head centre as a unit.  Then what you read is it controls heart, ajna, throat and head centres.  So it has always seemed difficult to me to understand how something within the head could control something that is superior to it.  In other words, how a part can control the whole?

Delta:   I am not sure I follow what you are saying.

Alpha:   Well you have the seven centres within the head (and they are etheric), so how is it they manage, if they are within the head, to control the ajna and the crown centre too?  Beta’s explanation of seven chakras above the head give them a superior point of view, as it were, and the possibility of sort of reaching down into the lower systems and controlling them. 

Gamma:  Especially the ones which you have drawn above the soul here, they seem to be in Manas-Buddhi-Atma. 

Alpha:   They seem to be correspondences to the three esoteric kumaras. … You know we always have a Sun, in the middle, and then three lesser ones and three latent.  Right now there are only four manifest most every place, and three latent.  … the names are in Secret Doctrine (Sanat, Sanatana ...)

Gamma:   The soul, the egoic lotus in your diagram, is that one of the seven above the head.

Alpha:   No, that is not the egoic lotus, that is a correspondence.

Beta:   It’d be probably a correspondence, but if we had these sets of seven centres, then we would have the mental, the astral and the physical chakras all together, ah, in a sense. 

Alpha:   Aren’t these all etheric?

Beta:   Yeah.  These could be in the ethers of the other two planes. 

Alpha:   What do you mean, ethers of other two planes? 

BetaThe four etheric planes of the mental.  The four etheric planes of the astral. … That ties in with the fourth subplane and being fully completed and the fifth subplane being worked on.  That ...

Alpha:   But ... the astral plane is indivisible.  You know it says that the mental plane and the physical plane are subdivided ... into what corresponds to ethers, but the astral plane is a unit. 

Beta:   OK.   That is quite interesting ...

Alpha:   The astral body has centres but they are in astral matter.

Beta:   Is he trying to distract people’s attention from the astral plane?

Alpha:   Well, no.  He says that  …

Beta:   ... it doesn’t exist after the second initiation.

Alpha:   I know but he basically says that it is the big one and it is so powerful because it is totally united, that the other two planes are divided (physical and mental), but the astral plane is so united that it forms the most resistant and powerful unit. 

Beta:   That is why it shouldn’t be focused on, through the heart and solar plexus.

Epsilon:   But on page 117, when you have the drawing of the constitution of man, there is divided in seven like the other ones.

Alpha:   Yes, divided in seven, but not in four and three; the physical plane and the mental plane are divided in four and three respectively.  They are called divided planes. 

Gamma:    One is three and four and the other is four and three ...

Epsilon:   Would it be true for ... buddhic and monadic?

Beta:   Well the buddhic has three or four higher subplanes because he discusses that, I know.  And atma certainly does, and the monadic plane.  They are all divided planes too.

Alpha:   Atma does.  I would like to see the reference on the Buddhic plane.

Beta:   I just was reading that.

Alpha:   Manas is divided.  Monadic plane is divided.  … apparently, because the three higher subplanes have third, first and second ray monads respectively.  As a matter of fact, the third ray monads have a task of moving up onto the second subplane of the monadic plane by the end of the solar system.  That is their task. 

Gamma:   Um-hmm.  Burden us even more. 

Alpha:   Because they are the failures of the previous solar system. … It probably wasn’t their fault.  By the way, Beta, the second semicircle, did you really need to draw that or did you try to ‘X. it out?

Beta:   No, no ... that is the thousand petalled lotus ... just enclosing all the rest.  Those visible jagged edges are supposed to be petals. 

Alpha:   Oh.  I’m sorry.  I just didn’t know what you had up there ...

(end of side 9b)

Tape Ten Begins

Alpha:   This is side one on tape number ten.

Gamma:   (We should be reaching perfection very soon!) … I would just like to [look at] the way these seven centres are stacked up above ... Why have you written on the top there?

Beta:   Oh, I meant that it could include all seven centres.

Alpha:   These are all etheric centres, aren’t they?

Beta:   Right. And there are certain correspondences thoughout.

Gamma:   Ah.  Say it again.  They are corresponding to the soul, you said?

Beta:   Yeah.  To a certain extent. 

Alpha:   I have a question related to the stacking.  What happens if a stack, or tier, is related to ten groups of ninety-six.  Is that correct?  In other words, isn’t there a place where it says that basically what you are dealing with in the head centre is ten groups of ninety-six (960 petals) … Could it be that you have them stacked in that way?  Could it be that the thousand petalled lotus is stacked? 

Beta:   That is interesting.  How would we divide it?  Or calculate it?

Alpha:   Well, there is ten times ninety-six and we worked out ninety-six in several ways, twelve times Nine, is, no, one hundred and eight, but two times forty-eight is part of the ajna constitution. And eight times twelve is another one.  He gave us that.  You have eight times twelve at one point on page 860, but where is that thing about the stacks, where is that about how to derive the 960?  There is a definite place where it tells you how to take ten times ninety-six.  … We are talking about the actual structure of the head centre.  …

Beta:   I meant to say that all those seven chakras correspond to the soul, if you put the monad on top and if you put the personality at the very bottom. 

Alpha:   It is correspondences but the chakras themselves are just etheric.  See what is happening is ...

Beta:   Nevertheless, even if it doesn’t represent those, the physical, astral and mental planes, it certainly represents the fifth.  Then (this makes a great deal of sense), then if the astral body is a unit, then seven centres in the head itself would  be as a unit.  You have the seven centres below, then the mental centres … would be dividable.

Alpha:   That makes sense.

Beta:   That makes an immense amount of sense because of the lower five and the mental. (I wish I had done a compilation [on the numbers].) 

Alpha:   356 triplicities, there is a place where we talk about the number of groups in the head centre. 

(tape paused)

Gamma:   I am wondering if those seven centres might not be linked to those seven tiers?

Beta:   In terms of a bridge or in terms of emanation from seven tiers, relating to the human causal body? But, constructing the causal body there would have to be, five on a planetary, seven on a solar, and nine on a solar or higher ...

Gamma:   Somehow it resists being totally latent. 

Beta:   Yeah, there might be two latent ones there, because the nine.  He talks in several places about the ninefold vibration coming down to construct the causal body, before the causal body is built and active. And then the nine, the causal body of course unfolds, nine fold.   Until it reaches the three central buds, bud petals.  So I can see in terms of the mind but ...

Gamma:   ... he never said seven?

Beta:   ... well actually, the explanation is there. Instead of seven ...

Alpha:   In connection with the etheric centres ... page 859, Cosmic Fire:  “In connection with the etheric centres, we should note the fact that the major head centre is twofold in structure, and consists of a lotus of ninety-six petals between the eyebrows, and of a twelve-petalled lotus at the top of the head, with ninety-six petals in a subsidiary whorl.”

OK.   This is very interesting, this is your 108, Beta; this is very important: 

“The significance of these figures is profound. In every case the figure twelve is met with, showing a definite relation to the basic psychic lotuses on egoic levels. Twelve multiplied by eight stands for the twelve petals in each case, while in the figure eight lies hidden the idea of duality:” 

Uh, now what is really interesting, he only says 96 petals, Where are we getting 960? Why does he only say 96 petals?

Beta:   This is great; there is something here.  Yes he is saying something.  Where is the ten?

Alpha:   Where is the ten?  I put 96 times 10, but I didn’t have the ten.  But, I am glad to find 108. 

Delta:   Well maybe it is like the Sephiroth, they just give the first Sephiroth, and the rest extends from there. 

Alpha:   Ah.  OK, wait a second.  On page 168 he says: 960 secondary petals arranged around the central twelve.  Now, here on page 859, he says: “a twelve-petalled lotus at the top of the head, with ninety-six petals in a subsidiary whorl.”  Are we going to get 960 somehow.  If so ... how?  Are you saying that this is simply a preliminary 96, that you multiply it by ten because there are an equivalent of ten Sephiroths?  In other words, it has only given you 1 x 96, but really you have to replicate that in a subsidiary nine?

Beta:   What is 9 x 96 = 864.

Alpha:   Right 864.  This is very interesting.

Delta:   Well, if the chakras are concerned with consciousness (more so than form in some respects) then consciousness is controlled by the number nine, threes and nines.

Alpha:   Yeah.  We almost wonder whether, for the nine initiations, they are kind of like nine groupings here.

Beta:   Here.  Let me read from 857-858.  The very bottom of 857:

“The etheric centres are the force vortices formed in etheric matter by astral impulse, transmitted via the astral centres. These astral centres in their turn are the transmitters of still higher energy, and thus the statement is technically true that the etheric centres are the source of man's psychic energy, and are therefore affected by the unfoldment of the petals. Every petal is in its turn a type of force centre, and the energy emanating from it affects the etheric centres, and produces every type of psychic energy of the true kind.”

Alpha:   “Every petal is in its turn a type of force centre, and the energy emanating from it affects the etheric ...”  Then how is the petal in etheric centres?  Or maybe etheric centres as a whole?  The petal is part of an etheric centre.  Well maybe it means the etheric centres as a whole.

Beta:   Well, the causal body is not usually considered as an etheric centre … it doesn’t qualify, which is odd, in a sense.  Interesting. …

[ensuing controvery over petals and astral and etheric centres, resolved in the following:]

Alpha:   Yeah but it was not only the petals, its every etheric centre affected by every astral centre, which is affected by every mental centre.  See, it is not just the petals alone; it is not just like the petals above are affecting the whole etheric centre below.

What I think it is, is that a centre is a door, and according to the number of petals activated, or whatever, the whole door is affected, the power of the whole door.  For instance, if you have an etheric centre of a certain awakeness, it will allow you into so much of a new domain.  If it has a greater awakeness then it will allow you into still more and maybe … they are not all equally activated if each one represented some force centre.  For instance, the heart chakra, RG is always making a big thing of the fact that on page 660 of DINA II, are the twelve potencies of the heart, really only eleven are listed, but he says there are twelve. … And what that means is that not everybody has humility and patience and all the rest of them in equal degree, right?  So what that probably means is the different petals of that particular centre when awakened affect the whole possible entry into the heart realm.  And when all the petals are awakened you get a full entry into the heart realm. There is the general area of experience connected with the heart.  The more petals that are active, the more the experience of the heart.  Anyway ...

Epsilon:   So ... that would go with that sentence: “Every petal is in its turn a type of force centre.”

Alpha:   Yeah.  And the energy emanating from it affects the etheric centres.  Not only its own etheric centre but every other etheric centre too, right?  “And produces every type of psychic energy of a true kind.” 

So basically here is another whole area of inquiry, just the way he gave us the twelve qualities of the heart, we also know the fifteen energies of the throat, and the six energies of the sacral centres and so forth. …

Beta:   Another thing, if you are thinking of the five higher centres of the head, there is a mention on page 336 that manas is the psychic effect of the work of the kumaras.  … which may tie into the soul....

Alpha:   Are there five centres above, we just had seven here didn’t we?

Beta:   Yeah.  But it means five, if you count the five that are active, and associate them with the kumaras. …

[Deleted some discussion on the diagram and highest head centre with unclear analysis; and then about the seven tiers which was a dead end.]

Delta:   … another thing I wanted to throw out for review is, the possibility the three finally awakened head centres is Great Bear, Sirius, Pleiades ... What about on page 301 in Esoteric Astrology, those three head centres being ruled by the central spiritual sun, Sirius, and the sun … just for consideration.  … it says that at an advanced or high state of initiation, it gives that.

Alpha:   OK.  Are there seven centres or the three head centres?

Delta:   Well it just lists three things; I might be bringing in an extraneous thing.

Alpha:   OK.  I get the reason, Yes, here is the connection.  Draco is to our sun as our sun is to our Earth.  In other words,  there is some base of the spine connection with our ... as a matter of fact, our sun ...

Delta:   That is why I think the Earth might be the base of the spine chakra. 

Alpha:   I think there is a real good reason for thinking so.  We just have to figure out what to do with Pluto and so forth. 

Delta:   Well, Pluto is connected because he draws that picture of  Earth somewhere in Esoteric Astrology …  of what the Earth would look like in its full constitution.  He has Earth like a several pointed star.  And he has Earth, Pluto, Vulcan, Aries, star of the Great Bear. 

Gamma:   And this is a double triangle.

Alpha:   Yeah.  The five fold thing. 

Beta:   ... we are not going to be able to handle this but it should be noted, I think.  Esoteric Astrology, 859, on the bottom, the whole question of 12 multiplied by 8 for the 96 petals.  At the bottom of page 467, after the enumeration of the four sets of two constellations. 

“In these eight constellations are to be found the influences which are mainly concerned with the evolution of the soul—in the solar system, in the planet Earth and in man.  They are the “eight potencies of the Christ”; they govern the psychic unfoldment of the life in all forms.”

If we tie that together with some of the things found between 857 and 861 (or so) there may be some set of correspondences. 

Alpha:   Yeah, well that’s most interesting, One day soon we should get into this question of the seven solar systems, which is a very blinded area.

Delta:   Let me repeat some things we agree upon. We agree that the ether, in terms of the chakra system and the seven head centres, have inadvertently or for whatever reason, been omitted often times.

We secondly addressed that the final three only awakened in a much later stage.  And we have proposed rulerships to these final three, Sirius, Great Bear, Pleiades, also Central Spiritual Sun, Sirius, and Sun.  And we didn’t propose rulerships for the other four.  We did propose that Vulcan would probably rule the jewel of the lotus in most of the chakras and parts, probably, in the head chakra.

And then we speculated and felt pretty comfortable that Vulcan and/or Uranus were connected with the seven head centres in some important way.  And we speculated that Neptune might rule the upper twelve and Uranus the 960.  We didn’t come to any ideas about the ajna, alta major, or throat although we could see Saturn’s correspondence (very easily) with the alta major or throat.  And then we suggested Jupiter for heart, Venus for the solar plexus, Mars for the sacral and Pluto for the base of the spine and Earth for the spleen.

Alpha:   OK, with Vulcan we have to include the seven head centres there.  We have to write on the list of chakras the seven head centres.  By the way, I thank you for reviewing the whole idea of the jewel in the middle of the head centre.  That is really important. 

Epsilon:   It is very important, and awakens by resonance the jewel in the chakras in the body.

Alpha:   That is pretty important and it is so Vulcanian in a certain respect.

Gamma:   Under this he says how the centres are finally burned by this resonance with the head centre in all the chakras. 

Alpha:   Yes.  Oh, that is really interesting.  That number four there again, fourth initiation and Vulcan.  Vulcan is the ruler of number four.  And Vulcan’s association with spiritual will, and spiritual will’s association with the jewel in the lotus.  That really fits.  Oh my God, Vulcan and Neptune in opposition … Really interesting that they have that kind of construction, right there.  So basically because DK has said elsewhere that there is a jewel in each one of the etheric chakras, you have to find a ruler for it.

                Now, with Vulcan as the ruler of the seven head centres (or at least a keen thought about that) we are left with the ajna, alta major, and throat.  Now somebody said there is esoteric Saturn and exoteric Saturn.  And there is legitimate reason for putting Saturn in relation to the throat and in relation to the alta major as well.  There is a correspondence of the antahkarana between the throat centre and the alta major centre: when the antahkarana is built there is a link between the centre at the top of the spine and the centre at the bottom of  the spine.  So it would be interesting to see Saturn as the ruler of both of those.  … In that case we would be simply left with Mercury in relation to the ajna centre.  … It will be better than nothing.

Delta:   Well I want to fit anything else in.  … I am just doing the head part there. … Vulcan and Uranus.

(Voices expressing concern about squeaky blackboard … :-)

Alpha:   Oh, that is really quite amazing what has emerged here about the head centres.  Quite wonderful.  Really wonderful.  Now, you know, there are always three groups of seven.  But the interesting thing about the Law of the Supplementary Seven (in Rays and Initiations) is that it pretty well deals with two sets of chakras.  But, why shouldn’t there be three?  You know seven centres in the head, seven centres above the head.  However, we haven’t solved the problem of 96 petals in the head or 960 petals in the head. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  So where does the factor of ten come in ... oh, oh wait a second.  OK.   The fact that there are ten schemes and ten chains, does this have anything to do with it?  Ah, solar system of ten, greater solar system of ten, the greater solar system of ten has to be found in man as well. 

Beta:   ... that would make me very happy, actually.

Alpha:   A zodiac of twelve is found here.  Right?  There should also be a zodiac of ten found somewhere too.  Maybe the zodiac of ten and the zodiac of twelve are somehow found together in the head.  And maybe that ten-ness, maybe there is a tetraktys, a ten-ness, like a Sephiroth ten-ness associated with these 96 petals. 

Beta:   Wow.

Alpha:   Oh.  Yeah.

(tape stopped)

Delta:   The bottom of 859, we have the twelve petals plus 96 petals making 108, and if we add the seven chakras to that, the lower seven chakras, that makes it a total of 115.  I don’t know if this is going out on a limb, maybe those are the 115 bodies of the solar system.

Alpha:   Well,  OK, that is really interesting, 115 plus.  But never-the-less, 115 ... 

Epsilon:   But you add petals to whole chakras, it is kind of not same unit.  You have 96 petals but you add seven chakras … 

Delta:   Yeah.  It might not be all appropriate for me to do that. … if we consider that those 108 petals are controlling the totality of the seven chakras, those are the major controls.

Alpha:   OK.   But you are left out the seven head centres. 

Delta:   That is true. 

Alpha:   Good.  Yes.  … we have to play with numbers. 

Delta:   OK.   I’m not advocating that just bouncing it about.  So, go ahead …

Alpha:   But it would be interesting to add all the petals.  And by the way, in terms of head centres, seven head centres, do they have petals?  Or are they unitary items? 

Beta:   They certainly have an atomic nature.  …

Gamma:   If they are centres they must have this.  And we can wonder if they have the same number of petals they represent.  I mean, the seven head petals represent the ...

Epsilon:   ... seven  head centres ... the same number of petals as their corresponding chakra, yeah. 

Gamma:   ... So there would be forty-eight.

Epsilon:   ... yeah ... four tiers, because there are 48 in the body.

Alpha:   Oh ... another 48.  Good god! … now we have three 96’s. … That is really interesting, 48 petals in head centre, well, maybe if ...

Beta:   288 equals 2 x 144.  It sounds like a reflection to me.

Alpha:   What’s this ... the number of the saved.  How do we get the number of  the saved by adding ...

Beta:   Oh my gosh!  Where do you divide.  See you have the 48 and then another six in the head ... and then you have the 96 in the brow and the 48 below. 

Alpha:   Wait ... Where is your top 48?

Beta:   In the seven head centres that reflect the ....

Alpha:   Forty-eight and forty-eight in the seven head centres, and then … if they have petals and if they correspond ...  And then below that is? …

Beta:   The twelve petalled lotus could be considered the heart centre in the head, and the seven head centres correspond to the physical centres.  Then the heart centre in the head could be that twelve petalled lotus.  It would be included in the 48.

Alpha:   Oh.  Well, you are going to have to go about five times slower for me right now.  Well, you counting the ones above the head?

Beta:   Yeah.  its just the ones above the head. 

Alpha:   Because I wasn’t counting the ones up above the head.   I was counting the ones in the head that would have maybe ...

Beta:   That is true too. 

Alpha:   We left out the ones in the head. … Well the question is what are the control centres?  Are the ones in the head the control centres or the ones above the head, the control centres?  We don’t even know if there are ones above the head.

Beta:   It is probably a matter of status, stage ... I don’t know. 

Alpha:   Shall I write down here ... ‘brain dead’.    

(laughter)

Delta:   Right. 

Beta:   Just let it ... (inaudible) ...

Alpha:   But I want to get to something here; can we find the greater zodiac in the head?

Delta:    I think it makes sense because why wouldn’t both zodiacs be represented in us if it is represented macrocosmically, then why not microcosmically? 

Alpha:   The only problem with greater and lesser zodiacs are the following: the lesser zodiac is twelve and the greater zodiac is ten.  OK.  

Delta:   Yeah.  But that is in the future.

(many voices)

Alpha:   ... talking about right now.

Gamma:   He talks about the greater zodiac.  And this Sirius reference he compares the normal zodiac with the greater zodiac, as one, something about Pisces being the decanate ...

Alpha:   Yeah.  Pisces, Taurus and Scorpio are a decanate in a greater Zodiac. … But it is not the greater zodiac of Draco, Orion, Great Bear, Pleiades, Little Bear, etc. ... which is maybe not manifesting at all through normal constellations, but are the analogue to the Sephiroth: Kether, Chockmah and Binah.  (Seven great constellations in the greater zodiac with three unmanifested.)

Delta:   So now we are on a new topic which is the greater zodiac, that we assume has ten constellations.

Alpha:   The greater zodiac does have ten constellations, but we don’t know what the greater zodiac is.  It is not really a new topic.  It is like trying to find the greater zodiac in the head centre.  And we are lead to a suspicious situation where we are told on page 859 that “there are ninety-six petals in a subsidiary whorl.”     

Holy Moses!  Oh yeah.  OK.   I think I just got it, fifteen minutes later.  There are 96 petals at the top of the head, 96 in the subsidiary whorl which is the same as 8 x 12, right?  So, it is a thousand petalled lotus, right?  There is some factor of ten going on.  The minute you have a factor of ten you begin to suspect the correspondence to the greater zodiac. 

By the way I want to ask something else (this is funny). If it is a greater zodiac, should it be above the head since the lesser zodiac is on top of the head?  I mean I just ‘asked’.  In other words, this is really stupid, all right?  You have seven head centres supposedly above the head, what if there are ten?   I am looking for a greater zodiac, that’s all.

Gamma:   I see how many ...

Epsilon:   Where do you have twelve?

Alpha:   I am looking at the number of Shamballa, seven plus seven plus seven plus three.  I am looking for seven centres in the body, seven centres in the head, seven centres above the head, plus three, the number of Shamballa.  Total control. 

Beta:   It is true, you have to have those three to co-ordinate the three sets of seven?

Alpha:   Yeah.  So I am wondering if that corresponds to the greater zodiac.  Now the only thing I think I know about the greater zodiac is that it is the centres in the OAWNMBS.

Epsilon:   I am confused ... you were looking for ten, and now you speak of 24.

Alpha:   OK.  I am saying ... if you take your ten above the head as the control of the twelve that are right here on top of the head, your ten above the head when added to the seven in the head and the seven in the body are going to yield 24.  Ten plus seven plus seven is 24.  Anyway that is twenty-four centres all together. 

Gamma:   Twenty-four would (also) be seven, seven, seven & three which govern that.

Alpha:   That is correct.  It is also equal to ten plus twelve.  Ten plus twelve is twenty-two which is the master number.  And twenty-four is the Shamballic number.

Gamma:   Do we have a three governing those sets of seven above the head?

Alpha:   Yeah. [VSK:  inserted out of later context to here, in context … The nine, seven and five is in this solar system too, is with the AUM, isn’t it?  The Brahma aspect is five.  The Vishnu is seven.  And the Shiva aspect is nine. And so it corresponds with the three solar systems as well .  But it is now also nine, seven, and five.  By the way seven plus five is twelve, plus nine ... 21.  Add it all up.  Twenty-two again.

Beta:   Well, I could suggest the nine, seven and five  can be found in the causal constitution.] …

Gamma:   Here, if you look at the antahkarana, there is one part of the antahkarana which when you go through two thirds of the antahkarana, it goes to the soul. 

Alpha:   Everything is threefold, and you always have three sets of seven; we have been running into three sets of seven all day.  Even in our discussion in consciousness, we ran into three sets of seven, in terms of seven sons of Fohat, seven rays, and seven spirits of darkness, you run into three sets of sevens again and every three set of sevens is either going to resolve through the addition of ... Ahh, I got it!  A 22 is 24. 

Delta:   Because the one is three.

Alpha:   Exactly.  Twenty-two equals twenty-four.  In other words, you always have seven, plus seven, plus seven, plus one to give you the master number twenty-two.  However, if you have seven, plus seven, plus seven plus one (equal 22), the ONE is equal to three, so you get 24, because you have a trinity factor here.  Every ONE is a THREE ... three-in-one.  So you have two powerful numbers.  Twenty-two is a master number, and twenty-four is a power number.  And we are constantly given these three sets of seven, plus one.  Or, three sets of seven plus three.  …

[deleted side-tracking question about 5, unclear.]

Alpha:   Oh.  Basically I am not going to be explicit.  I am just going to say that all of these centres are etheric.  Aren’t they?  … [deleting several interruptions and pauses]. Seven centres in the body, etheric.  Seven centres in the head, etheric.  Seven centres above the head, etheric. Otherwise you have left out the seven centres on the astral plane,  you have left out a whole bunch of  things. 

Beta:   So it that means basically you have the threefold etheric structure here, which is fantastic.  You have 21, or 21 plus three.

Alpha:   Yeah if we really need somehow to put the three.  We began looking for the three to ask the logical question, as above so below, man is the reflection of all, so is the greater zodiac found in man?  That the greater zodiac is greater than the lesser zodiac and the lesser zodiac is twelvefold and it’s found in the head then the greater zodiac is certainly not going to be found any lower. …

Delta:   Would there be any interest in going on to discuss these various triangles mentioned on 169, correlating that with the chakras.

Alpha:   Well the question at this point, would we benefit most from doing that now (assuming that Delta’s assumption is that because Mercury is stationary) we would be hot if we did that?

Delta:   No we would be hot if we did anything. 

Alpha:   OK.  Or, the question is are we so hot that we are burnt out?  So I am going to remove myself from this consideration for a minute and see what other people think? 

(many voices)

Epsilon:   I would prefer to stop myself.   We would be fresher tomorrow.

Beta:   I am beginning to feel like I am tired, but I don’t know; I could go on for a while ...

Delta:   I feel this topic has been largely explored as much as it can in a productive way at the moment.  We can always come back to it.

Alpha:   Can we at least summarise. You started this earlier, but afterward a few other things were apparently learned.

Gamma:   I think we should at the same time summarise and anticipate what we are going to do tomorrow. 

Alpha:   If we summarise and anticipate would that be considered some productive work?

Delta:   Well I don’t care what we do; I just don’t want to spend any more time on this topic. 

Alpha:   No, I may agree with you.  I would feel quite fine about this if we could just extract ...

Beta:   Well can I close it? Actually this is slightly extraneous but ties in with the previous concern just before this, a little quote bottom of page 853, Cosmic Fire.  She draws from C. W. Leadbeater, but this is her comment:

“C. W. Leadbeater had a dim apprehension of this idea [the question of the early teachers and divine kings who occupied the ill-favoured bodies of the early humanity] when he referred to those boat loads of Egos from the moon chain. He has of course materialised the idea far too much; if the same fundamental idea is expressed in terms of force and of the appearance of force centres within the earth chain, which force centres are the result of energy emanating from an earlier chain and producing whorls in the ether or substance of the mental plane, then the true significance may be more easily grasped.”

Alpha:   Well, how does this relate?

Beta:   Well, this relates the chains, to force centres, to mental energy.  A direct set of correspondences of chakras and chains, schemes, chains and ...

Delta:   Can I try and summarise what I understood of this extensive conversation.  … That it makes sense that since there are three sets of seven in most things (we discussed the chakras as having three sets of sevens: astral, etheric and I don’t know exactly how you would want to label the third), which makes 21 chakras ultimately that we have to deal with.  Three sets of seven, and we said there would be a controlling chakra for each one which would make a total of [22, or if that one controller is a trinity, we have 24].

(end of side 10a)

Alpha:   OK.  This is side two of tape number ten and we are just summarising what we have done so far, and one of the concrete things we have done is pretty well assign a planet to each type of chakra found within the solar system ... by saying that Saturn is a double and could stand for either the throat centre or the alta major centre ... that Vulcan has a whole lot to do with the seven head centres, and that Mercury is ajna (I suggested, as a hypothesis.) 

                So basically we have looked closely at the solar system and while not completely happy with what we have, we have some reasonable thoughts about which planets represents what positions.  And then we veered off a bit into the difficulties of assigning planets to different chakras, the fact that a number of the different chakra systems were esoteric arose. And that is why we examined the head so closely. 

We examined the head closely because the seven centres within the head, which are normally not considered as chakras, had to be considered as a unit.  And then looking further we began to speculate about chakras above the head.  We didn’t assign any planets to chakras above the head, at the same time we have left out Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva as the three controlling entities ... which we discussed this morning.  

So, not only do we have to find chakras assignments for all the planets, which we have done pretty well, but we maybe have to find some way of incorporating Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva which we thought was important this morning because it was always the triangle surrounding the point in all the different systems (whether it is human or planetary or so on whatever). 

So we pretty well exhausted the idea of the planetary system and the complexities which possibly are found in the head centre, which has been an eye opener for me, considering the complexity of the head centre.

Now, since we have done the macrocosmic system, the thing that lies ahead of us is to begin trying to learn something about the triangles within the physical-etheric system.  We have to ...

Delta:   … and how that corresponds to the egoic lotus, and initiations. 

Beta:   Yeah.  This is astonishing.  And ...

Alpha:   Well let’s make sure that we are projecting properly.  How the unfoldment of the chakras and the unfoldment of all of these sets of chakras corresponds with the unfoldment of the egoic lotus and corresponds with the initiatory status of the individual. … It is both a cosmological but psychologically interesting subject.

Delta:   That is the core of exoteric astrology. [exo?]

Alpha:   Yeah.  But this is also Cosmic Fire, we have to remember that in this group we can distinguish between what the international academy of esoteric astrology is to do, as a whole, and what we as a kind of core group on Cosmic Fire can do.  … I have no objection to projecting ahead to this particular topic because I think it is psychologically interesting and it has cosmological implication.  So, although it is a topic I have examined, I think that the group being what it is that a whole lot more light will emerge if we decide to examine it.  … But I think we have to figure out how we are different from the astrology group at large.  

(tape paused)

Alpha:   OK.   So now we are talking about what it is worth while doing.  And of course the whole question of man, his chakra system, his egoic lotus, and the initiations is an important psychological subject which relates also to the psychology of the planets and their initiatory system.  So it goes cosmological and makes me happy.  

Another thing we need to do, we haven’t made a whole lot of progress, and I don’t know if we will this time, is drawing the map of the nesting of the different entities.  Who fits into what and all the rest of it.  So that is a legitimate subject that is so big that I just don’t know how we will do this.

Delta:   I would like to do the Kumaras, and their associations with the Buddhas of activity and controlling certain globes and certain basic triangles. 

Gamma:   But I think that before doing that we have to have our model, which is either the Earth, man, or the Solar Logos, to have it, really pinned down, really as clear as possible. … if this single field is clarified …  we will understand exactly the functions of this one.

Alpha:   So to that this morning we did Solar Logos and Planetary Logoi in some small measure, not extensively, but we really went into the constitution somewhat and went into the rounds and how they develop and all the rest of it.  Now it seems that what is up on the table is to try to do man a bit.  We also did a bit of man but all through both days we have done man in a way because we actually did go through the egoic lotus and talk about unfoldment. 

The only thing we didn’t do is correlate the chakra triangles with it.  See this is something that we cover all the time in the Esoteric Psychology course and in the PhDE course to a certain extent.  But, given who is here a whole lot more light would come out.

So maybe what we are saying is we do man in the morning, see how it goes, and then having nailed down man in the morning, having nailed down the Solar Logos and the Planetary Logoi (to a certain extent) this morning, maybe we are in a position to start putting in some of these other entities.

Delta:   Well, it mentions specifically about the Buddhas of Activity being connected with man and the unfoldment (in Rays and Initiations).

Alpha:   Yeah. [… let’s move forward as it seems that we promised ourselves that we were going to examine the human chakra systems] in the morning.  … It is one of our frames, like Gamma said, the planetary chakra system, our solar system is one frame, and we have been paying a lot of attention to that, now the  human chakra system, we haven’t paid a whole lot of attention to that  but we have hinted and discussed.

Now suppose we have these two frames in place, then we proceed to put in some of the other entities and see how they fit, not hoping to cover all of them, but just the ones we can be selective about.  Is that reasonable?

Gamma:   I just want to express my wish to clarify as much as possible either man or Solar Logos.  And as for the other ones, understanding the principle of how we really pin down the nesting. Ah, One entity, and then after that the rest will be a piece of cake. 

Alpha:   OK.  I can see the point, as for ‘the piece of cake-ness’, I think it will be ‘easier’, but …

Delta:   Well we will make good progress on the macrocosmic level and ... I would also like to discuss the Creative Hierarchies. 

Alpha:   Well, I agree we should not leave without discussing the Creative Hierarchies, because there is tremendous obscurity about this and it will also tie in with the rays because rays are different kinds of positions with respect to the hierarchies.  …

Epsilon:   If we want to be sensible we will not have time for man or Solar Logos in more in depth, then relate to that, then Creative Hierarchies.

Alpha:   We don’t need Solar Logos right now more in depth.  So we have done enough with the Solar Logos right now.

Epsilon:   I would prefer to begin with the Hierarchies. 

Delta:   Lets begin with the Creative Hierarchies tomorrow morning and do that thoroughly.

Alpha:   OK, but the problem is, I want to do the Creative Hierarchies but we are still within the chakra thought form.

Gamma:   Yeah.  We haven’t solved that.

Alpha:   You see what I am saying, let’s try to keep it within the range of principles, not personal.  Let’s try to discuss the chakras in such a way that a bridge to larger systems remains open so that the implications are right there to our attention.  And then the afternoon and the evening is a long time.  So I am sure that we can find the time, even an hour on the Creative Hierarchies is something.

Gamma:   You know.  If we don’t deal with the Hierarchies ....the crocodiles are going to come back with a vengeance. 

Beta:   Ah, sure the crocodilians.  That would be dreadful!

Alpha:   OK.  So very good, why don’t we just have our mantrum before we disappear, like wild geese.

Gamma:   … into obscuration.

(DAY TWO ENDS)

Day Three Begins

Alpha:   (We better check the tape recorder often today because, with Mercury retrograde we will have a tendency to misfire.)

This is the third day and we are working on the chakra system, its unfoldment in evolution and in time.   We will be looking at the unfoldment of the chakras system, the unfoldment of consciousness in relation to rays and astrological factors.  And looking for the simultaneous unfoldment of the egoic lotus along with the development of the chakra system.  

So I think that is the place where we begin and I was going to ask Delta if he had anything to add to the first task that we are undertaking here. 

Delta:   Well just to recapitulate, perhaps we can discuss provisional rulerships of chakras and rulerships of petals and how that occurs and what petals correspond with what chakras and how they interact.  This uses for this basis page 169 and 170 in Cosmic Fire where it lists certain major triangles.  And that is repeated again on page 88 in Esoteric Astrology.  So I guess the first thing we could discuss is how many petals are unfolded on which stage of the path and the rulership of those petals and which chakras is the person polarised on.  …

Alpha:   I am thinking that the chakras themselves at certain stages of unfoldment are themes within our range, to a degree.  …

Beta:    Last night we decided on three things to do today, Creative Hierarchies …

Alpha:   … in the afternoon we are doing Beings, Creative Hierarchies, solidifying, man and solar logos; this morning looks like it is pretty well given to the chakra system … particularly with regard to causal body. Basically, the unfoldment of the egoic lotus is given to us and it is very good paradigm. I handed out that table which has the twelve petals of the egoic lotus and the time periods and the different astrological and rayological factors involved in each stage.  (tape paused, discussing whereabouts of table).

… See we need a framework to do this.  Now are you interested in a time framework?  Because a time framework will tell you what chakras unfold in time and the time is determined by the periods ruled by the petals of the egoic lotus.  Now the petals of the egoic lotus are found in the 820’s in Cosmic Fire, the 860’s and the 520’s.  Those three references in Cosmic Fire tell you exactly what you can expect from the periods of time in which each petal unfolds.  So ... now, combining this with the triangles you will have what you need I think.

Delta:   Well maybe I can summarise what you put down here very succinctly, basically it is traditional that the knowledge tier is associated with the Earth signs, the love tier with the water signs, the will tier with the fire signs, and the jewel in the lotus, the final three, with the air signs.  And then you made a very logical correlation also with the final jewel in the lotus with the three synthesising planets: Uranus, Neptune and Saturn.  So, that makes a lot of sense. 

Alpha:   OK.   Sure.  And the thing that is important to know is what is happening in the life of man when these petals are unfolding.  Now, in order to do that I consulted all the Cosmic Fire references plus these two references in Esoteric Psychology Vol. I and Vol. II, which gives the progression of human development and exactly the kind of thing that is going on at each stage.  The kind of thing that is going on at each stage is correlated with planets, signs, chakra unfoldment, etc.  

I think the best map is in a Treatise on Cosmic Fire, page 539 goes petal by petal.  I suggest either you go petal by petal, do take care of early man. Or how do you want to just begin?

Delta:   I would like to start from … the bottom up, if that is OK. 

Alpha:   OK.   That is fine.  Believe it or not, with just the first and second petal you get and awful lot of people that are on the Earth right now.  … if you unfold the first three petals, you get intelligent man.  ....intelligent, but not necessarily integrated. … So, are you interested in this from the bottom up considering the whole process, or only in relation to disciples and aspirants?

Delta:   I am interested in the bottom up.  I would like to go back to 169 in Cosmic Fire and say, for example,  the pranic triangle, what planets will we associate with the shoulder centre, the centre near the diaphragm and the spleen?  The spleen is probably Earth itself I would imagine.

Alpha:   Well, in a way that is an Earth triangle, you know.  I don’t know enough about ...

Beta:   The diaphragm’s centre comes into activity at a certain stage in terms of transferring the energy, right?  And is it associated with the transference of the solar plexus to the heart?  I think it is.  But I think is also involved with the higher transference as I recall.

Gamma:   I think it’s close to the diaphragm, between the plexus and the heart.  You know it is sort of a transitory centre.

Alpha:   But it is not considered the higher solar plexus centre, is it?

Beta:   … I don’t think it is one of the temporary centres; maybe the lower aspect of it is a temporary transferring centre and the higher is actually ...

Epsilon:   What is the shoulder centre?  Because he says ‘the heart between the shoulder blades’.

Gamma:   This is the Vagus. 

Beta:   The pranic triangle. 

Gamma:   The shoulder centre, for me, is the Vagus centre. 

Beta:   The Kali chakra....

Alpha:   Where is the Kali chakra?

Beta:   It is just around the heart.  It is associated with the Vagus, it’s eight petals. 

Alpha:   But it is so pranic, so Lemurian, so fundamental and of the past solar system, that it hasn’t much to do with the psychological life at all.  Maybe for the healer it would be of interest.

Delta:   Yeah, it would be of interest to the healers.  Anyway, the correlations he gives is for the spleen, page 78 of Esoteric Astrology:

a.         The spleen receiving pranic emanations from the planet on which we live and concerned with the etheric and physical bodies and their physical relation.

Then page 859 of Cosmic Fire:

“The splenic centre, being the vehicle of prana, is specially developed under evolutionary law, and its energy is not transferred to another centre, but is consciously diffused. When its correspondence in the head centre is awakened, this becomes the organ of occult healing; through it the healer (by an act of will), absorbs prana and vitality from the ethers, and then breathes it out again upon the object to be healed by an act of compassionate healing.”

Alpha:   This is very important in terms of the seven head centres, and whether one of them is the spleen. 

Delta:   So you see why I think it is worth going through this all thoroughly, because this is such an abbreviated list of triangles here. …

Beta:   … I remember in Esoteric Healing, it was associated with ray three and the Planetary Logos and energy coming directly from the Earth.  … Whereas other chakras deal with energies coming directly from the sun.

Gamma:   And the main energy and triangle it gives in Esoteric Healing is spleen, sacral and base of the spine, just to put some prana in the person.

Delta:   What do you take as the shoulder centre.  Is that the centre in the chest related to the thymus gland?

Gamma:   I believe the heart between the shoulder blade is the Vagus.  

Epsilon:   The heart centre between the shoulder blades is the heart centre is itself.

Gamma:   No.  I think there is another centre which receives directly the life impulse from the monad, in which the life is anchored, and this is not the one between the shoulder blades. 

Beta:   Right.  Yeah.

Alpha:   There is so called centre I the lungs which is connected with the life aspect. 

Gamma:   Um-hmm.  That is the last one to turn off when you die. 

Alpha:   Yeah. So you are saying that the shoulder centre is connected with the Vagus nerve?

Gamma:   It is called the Vagus centre. 

Beta:   The Vagus  nerve.

Delta:   Is this quote appropriate, page 78 of Esoteric Astrology:

“A centre in the chest related to the thymus gland. This centre becomes inactive in the advanced man but has a connection with the Vagus nerve, prior to the awakening of the heart centre.”

Delta:   And then it lists another centre near the diaphragm. 

Beta:   Oh good, what does it say about the diaphragmatic centre?

Delta:   Ah.  I don’t know, because he only mentions six major triangles. I think that it would behoove us to go through these six thoroughly, but maybe you don’t think that is the right way to proceed.

Alpha:   No, that is all right.  It narrows it down and makes it manageable.

Gamma:  I think the diaphragm is … a plexus related one.   It is one which, if I remember correctly, is governed by the base of the spine. 

Delta:   Well.  OK.   We could maybe move on past this but at least we have brought it out and thought about it for a few minutes.

Alpha:   Yeah.  The thing is I think we should somewhat keep into the psychological life.

Delta:   Yeah.  I agree.  At least let us just move on.  At least we tried to address this in some way and we probably think that some of this is connected with the energy of the Earth itself. 

Gamma:   You say that the Vagus centre is eight petals?

Beta:   If it the same as the yogic chakra.  It is considered a major chakra by some schools. The Kali chakra.

Delta:   So could we say that the pranic triangle is governed by the first petal? 

Alpha:   I can demonstrate that; this is the development of the human soul.  Esoteric Psychology, II page 203.

1.     “The souls who live but whose consciousness sleeps.  These are the dormant human beings whose intelligence is of such a low order, and their awareness of themselves and of life is so dim and nebulous, that only the lowest forms of human existence come into this category.  Racially, nationally, and tribally they do not exist as pure types, but occasional­ly such a person emerges in the slums of our great cities.  They are like a "throw back" and never appear among what are called the natural savages, or the peasantry.”

And also category two.

2.   “The souls who are simply aware of physical plane life and of sensation.  These people are slow, inert, inarticulate, bewildered by their environment, but they are not bewildered, as are the more advanced and emotional types, by events.  They have no sense of time or of purpose; they can seldom be trained along any mental line, and they very rarely exhibit skill in any direction.  They can dig and carry, under direction; they eat, sleep and pro­create, following the natural instincts of the animal body.  Emotionally, however, they are asleep, and mentally they are totally unawakened.  These too are relatively rare, though several thousands of them can be found upon our planet.  They can be recognised through their complete incapacity to respond to emotional and mental training and culture.”

Gamma:   Can you have someone that has no petal open?

Alpha:   No.  He says there are no more people who have no petals open.  Now ... this goes into monadic types where he definitely gives you names for such individuals who are one petallers.  Cosmic Fire 840.  (And also there is a list, 822 and 855.) 

Alpha:   The names of the egoic lotus.  Here they are: “The Bud Egos”, these no longer exist. 

“Our planetary scheme, being at the midway point in its evolution, there are therefore no unopened "buds" strictly speaking. All the egoic lotuses have at least one petal open. All the lotuses are organised, but there are vast differences among those of small development, showing forth in the brilliancy of the permanent atoms, and in the stage of petal unfoldment.”

So here are the one petallers, called

“Brahmic lotuses in which the first or knowledge petal is fully unfolded. They are so called as they represent on the physical plane the fully active intelligent unity, the man of small mental development, the lowest type of workers, agriculturists, and peasants on every continent. They are also called ‘third class creators’as they express themselves only through the act of physical creation on the physical plane, and their function is largely to provide vehicles for those of their own group.”

The three of the three, right? Three sub three.  By the way, they have to have the sacral centre and they have to have the base of the spine.  Base of the spine, sacral and spleen.  Solar plexus is not involved. 

Delta:   And as a system what you did with each tier with the element is you went cardinal, fixed, mutable ....so the first knowledge petal is Capricorn, the next knowledge petal is Taurus, the next knowledge petal is Virgo.

Alpha:   I didn’t do that on purpose.  I did it based upon the paragraphs, just petal number one and so on.

Delta:   OK.   You only did that for the two lower tiers.

Alpha:   Yeah, it just worked out that way.  I followed the paragraph.  Now maybe there is a system.

Delta:   I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but why wouldn’t we assign Taurus to that first one, for example.

Alpha:   Well.  Beause this is the school of hard knocks and Taurus has the magnetic love energy and sexuality and Venus, and is connected with desire.  But the school of hard knocks in the lowest sense, the Earth bound soul is Capricorn through the breaking of the law and ensuing suffering.  The price of physical ignorance is paid and knowledge is achieved.  This unfoldment is brought about through physical plane experience.  So I looked at certain kinds of planets that were found in relation to that experience.

Delta:   Where does it say ‘through the breaking of the law’?

Alpha:   This is page 539 Cosmic Fire.  And all I did is translate words into astrological symbols; basically if this is heavy Saturn, heavy Capricorn ... there is ....

Delta:   I agree.  I was just challenging you ...

Alpha:   No, no problem, there is some Taurus life in the first petal because procreation is still involved …

Delta:   And we’re all thinking Saturn would be involved, and that makes a lot of sense.

Alpha:   ... I have a number of planets and a reason for each one.  Let’s keep it first ray, keep it simple.  There is   a reason for each one being there. 

Beta:   I find this sort of impossible to call unless all the cites are there and we can examine it ahead of time.   Otherwise there is no productive discussion.  So I can compare it with my own work.

Alpha:   Well you don’t have to compare it with your own work, compare it later, all the citations are there on top of the page.

Beta:   I am interested in utilising time constructively.  That is all; I want to continue this, I probably have something to say but don’t feel I can participate much ...

Alpha:   Well what we could easily do is when we read a paragraph we could ask what planet does this suggest to you?

Delta:   And this is obviously Saturn, and Vulcan also to me, for the first petal.

Alpha:   Yeah.  So basically.  All we are doing is saying that each petal is unfolding and certain kinds of things happen in the life of the primitive being in whom they are unfolding, what planetary activity does it suggest?  That is all, very logical, very straight forward.  It is simply translating paragraphs about an early period into planetary terminology, and then just listing them.

Beta:   I disagree with your lotus names on the side, as a matter of fact.  I would put those radiant lotuses of perfume and revelation, all those three on the three last, actually the three bud petals.  Because, the lotuses of passion and desire are the five groups of lotuses she talks about as inherited from the previous system.  (I am trying to remember, I formulated this about three different ways.) 

Alpha:    See, but if we jump ahead to that and don’t go petal by petal, we won’t be able to tell.  See what I mean?  Look.  All of these you may disagree with, but what we should do is wait until we get to the unfoldment of that lotus and then we have good reason to disagree with it, see?

Beta:   OK.  I will review the lotus section. 

Delta:   I would like to cite something on the side, all through the conversation I have been emphasising more the planetary association with the rays, rather than the sign associations, and I would like to just make a note to back that up, page 1190, the petals and all, page 1191 in Cosmic Fire (Also on page 109 Esoteric Astrology):

“More attention will eventually be paid to the planetary influences, and not so much to the signs of the zodiac where the nature of an Ego is concerned. The great signs of the zodiac concern the Heavenly Man, and necessarily, therefore, the Monads of every human being. The planetary influences must be studied to find out the quality of a man's Ray, and this in the above indicated threefold manner.”

Gamma:   In other places he says that according to the initiation you start to become sensitive to the signs, it is around the third initiation, isn’t it?

Alpha:   Well the point is every man in the early days is going to be born in particular signs and certain signs are going to be particularly active in these early days.  Probably he is born in all the signs.  Some of them have the particular kind of connection with the task he is working on, and so the attempt there is to list them. 

Delta:   Well, maybe I am being overly practical and narrow, but the first petal of course it deals with the person’s very life and the energy to go forward.  So, would someone have a life threatening crises if an extremely discordant configuration occurred in Capricorn?  Not necessarily.  But would somebody have a life threatening crises if an extremely discordant configuration occurred on the planet Saturn?  Quite probably.

Alpha:   Well.  OK.   I am not understanding that entirely.  Capricorn is not meant to apply to individual lives.  It is meant to apply to a whole cycle of lives in which a person is working in densest materiality; it is just the ‘qualitative’ statement. 

Delta:   But, I couldn’t really make a prediction about the first petal from Capricorn.  But I could make a prediction about the first petal form Saturn.  In other words, for everyone, for example, in the year 2020  (jumping ahead a little bit), Saturn and Pluto will be in Capricorn. So that is not necessarily going to affect all peoples that much or cause some to a life crises, yet, if Saturn and Pluto were conjunct in your natal chart, Pluto transited your Saturn or visa versa, there would be an enormous personal crises, dealing life-death issues.

Alpha:   ... you look at what that person has to do, a petal is much more than any astrological sign.  A petal is a whole phase of human life.  So they are probably born in all the signs.  Look at Aries connected with that first petal because it is the first sign.  And Pisces is connected with it because it is ‘go forth into matter’ for the first time, and Cancer is connected with it because it is the very first incarnation ...  So from the sign point of view I am just thinking you should look qualitatively at the kinds of activities that a person has to accomplish during that, and how it correlates with the lower part of certain signs. 

Delta:   Yeah.  I can see the cycle but we had also just associated this petal with the base of the spine, the sacral and the spleen.  Those would be associated with the base of the spine and the spleen and would affect your ability just to be in incarnation. 

Alpha:   The survival petal, and that is where Capricorn comes in.

Delta:   So what I am proposing is, even though I agree with your sign correlation’s and that Aries can be associated with that petal and so forth, I don’t see a life threatening situation ensuing if Aries or Capricorn had difficult configurations in it.  Yet I do see a life threatening situation perhaps ensuing if Saturn or Pluto were together in some sort ... I don’t think I am being too narrow.

Alpha:   Well, but don’t forget these people are also digging, carrying ... you know … it is not all the ...

Delta:   Wait ... let me drop back for a second. I am not referring only to these people because in other words all of us have that fist petal unfolded.  All of us have the first petal.

Alpha:   And then you bring up an interesting question. The emphasis moves on however, certain things blip into the subconsciousness and first petal activities, and we just handle them.

Delta:   I agree.  But, in other words, we wouldn’t just handle it if the base of the spine were suddenly violently disrupted, or the spleen centre.  Normally we don’t pay any attention to that I agree, at our stage, but if suddenly there were a life threatening illness we would be paying attention.

Alpha:   What you are bringing up leads us to the thought that when certain astrological configurations appear in the chart it can throw emphasis back onto a particular triangle, even though it may have long ago been passed. 

Delta:   Yes ... and I am suggesting that ...

Gamma:   We should not forget that those petals are still active.  As the higher triangles become active the lower triangles get more and more also, because a centre which starts to be more energetic energises all the centres.

Alpha:   Yes.  That is right.  OK.   But this is all a very relative kind of thing.  What are you looking for, a correlation of certain planets within the triangle?

Delta:   I am trying to look for pragmatic (maybe that is an illusion) planetary rulership, rather than a sign rulership … on a day-to-day level I think that it would be best to look at the planet Saturn & Vulcan (rather than the sign Capricorn and Aries).

Alpha:   Okay, we don’t have to talk about signs, the point is this chart is BIG, obviously to do it right it would take a week to really look at it.  So we can confine ourselves to planets.  That is not a problem.

Delta:   Ah.  Sometimes I wouldn’t want to confine myself to planets, because I feel we have different approaches which are very complementary, you are taking the wide approach trying to bring in all the factors ... And I am trying to take a narrow approach and find the factors which are really just of overwhelming import.

Alpha:   Well then from the first ray point of view if we want to look for overwhelming import, in regards to this dense materiality, Vulcan and Saturn are dense materiality … and you can’t avoid Earth, because the man is of the Earth. 

Delta:   So, we are pretty much agreed on the first petal and that, in a general sense, over incarnations it would be affected by all the signs but perhaps in a more immediate sense it would be affected by planets.

Alpha:   Very curious thing is that from the citation you read in Treatise on White Magic, page 438. 

Alpha:   Yeah, we are talking about whether signs are influential in the early days of incarnation.  And basically we are opting to concentrate mostly on planets, even though, strangely enough, the zodiac is considered related to the elemental kingdoms and very effective in the life of the unthinking man whose life is predictable. 

Delta:   So this gets back to the traditional assignment of the base of the spine chakra as the Earth.  Traditional occultism. 

Alpha:   Ah-haa.  Well, actually, the Tibetan never said so, but if you put two and two together and go by analogy you would figure it out.  OK. 

So we have the first petal, and the first triangle.  And we realised that it is effective in all people’s lives even though not focal except when you have life or death situations and just sort of the basic instincts everybody has, basic instincts of survival, vitality, sexual instinct and inquisitiveness.

OK, so the second petal is defined on page 539 as the petal of love for the physical plane:  

“It unfolds through physical relationships and the gradual growth of love from love of self to love of others.”

Well, you know (it was difficult for me to avoid from a sign point of view) the Taurus implication of physical love, the Libran implication of physical relationships (let “unbalanced fiery passion” as it is called in Libra), and the sort of love of self is kind of that Leo, you know, first glorying in your ahamkara and realising you are a separate entity, self love, and then moving into Libra.  But we don’t need to discuss t hose signs so much as maybe the rulers of them. 

But I will tell you what, maybe, before assigning anything to them what we should do is to continue the discussion of the kinds of people that are found at that period.

This now in that case I would point us out to is Esoteric Psychology Vol. II, page 204:

“The souls who are beginning to integrate and who are emotionally and psychically alive.”

I think that is what we are finding with the second petal. 

“In them, of course, the animal nature is awake and the desire nature is becoming rampant. These people are to be found in all races to a small extent, and a number of them can be found among the negroes, which race contains a large number of those who are today relatively children.”

(This would not be considered politically correct.)

“These are child souls, and though the mental equipment is there and some of them can be trained to use it, the preponderance of the life emphasis is entirely upon physical activity as it is motivated by the desire for satisfaction of some kind, and by a shallow "wish-life" or desire nature, almost entirely oriented towards the physical life.  These souls are the modern correspondences to the old Lemurian cultures.”

OK.   Now there is a lot of , what would you say, Mars in that? 

Delta:   Why not moon in Cancer?  A lot of times the moon is associated with the id.  I want all this stuff. 

Alpha:   But even there the Moon will have to be associated with the first group as well.  Cause they would have to be rock bottom incarnated types ...

Beta:   So where is Jupiter.  Moon.  Yeah, Mars … Jupiter.

Alpha:   Mars is there.  The fulfilment of the desire life is there.  And lower Venus is there ... lower Venus.   Now, the question is, this is man controlled from the astral plane; this is before that.  The triangle given is not even there.  We shouldn’t be rising above the solar plexus yet. 

Delta:   So this petal will associate with the Lotuses of Brahman ... we will associate that with, up to the solar plexus. 

Alpha:   OK.   But Lotuses of Brahman ... he says second petal.

“The lotuses of Brahman, in which the second petal is showing signs of opening and the second aspect in its lowest manifestation is showing signs of demonstration. They stand as representing certain groups of Egos from certain planetary schemes, notably Jupiter and Venus ...”

This is so fantastic ...

“Jupiter and Venus who are a grade higher than the class above, but which have as yet a long way to go. They are called "second class creators," for though they demonstrate on the physical plane in the act of physical creation, yet they are more swayed by love than by animal instinct as in the first case. They are to be found incarnating at this time in the Orient, particularly in India and in the Latin countries, and just lately in America.”

Delta:   So, again I would see some of this as being moon, family, the clan group.  You at least love those immediately next to you. 

Beta:   Right, are these failures from Venus?

Alpha:   Ah, you know what, I don’t think these are failures, I think these are a new batch, so to speak. 

Beta:   I am just thinking they are from certain schemes, notable Jupiter and Venus.

Alpha:   You know ... yeah, and Venus is much farther ahead on its unfoldment than Jupiter is. 

Beta:   And with the fourth kingdom ...

Gamma:   You mean we are getting refuge from other places?

Alpha:   Absolutely.

Beta:   There we are.

Alpha:   There is a whole ecological system going on here.  But I think these are very largely second ray monads.  What is interesting is that you can expect, by in large, that second ray monads less developed than the third ray and on down types.  And the fact that Jupiter and Venus, both of which have a strong second ray content, more or less, kind of reinforces this for me. 

Beta:   I would say, if they were from Jupiter they’d be sort of experimental prototypes. 

Alpha:   Because they haven’t gone through so far?

Beta:   They had to be transferred because Jupiter is going into another cycle … or something.

Alpha:   Yeah.  It is certainly possible.  This is not an intellectual group.

Beta:   Well, we know that there are egoic incarnation cycles, and monadic incarnation cycles, and in those egoic incarnation cycles there are usually transfers from chain to chain and sometimes from scheme to scheme.   There are five techniques listed for transference of egos and monads. … That is happening all the time.

Delta:   So as a pragmatic procedure perhaps we could especially assign Venus to this.  I agree though there are other associations but it seems there is an especial affinity with lower Venus.

Alpha:   Well there is, lower Venus, but don’t forget Mars is terribly important because desire is rampant.

Beta:   Yeah.  Mars-Jupiter. 

Delta:   But Venus, the Taureans can be that way also. … Crazy with desire.

Alpha:   See, the danger is, in looking for the main thing that is maybe a 90% thing, one may be cutting out seventy-five percent things.

Delta:   I understand.  That is why it is good to discuss this from three different points of view.  But I am trying to narrow it, you are trying to widen it.

Beta:   Well this is going to be pretty much relegated to somebody who wants to do a specialised study.  And probably an empirical study with enormous numbers of people, because otherwise, who would be interested in this.   We are not going to encounter these people in our kind of work

Delta:   But could we say that if lower Venus were at times aroused in us that our second petal is sometimes activated.

Beta:   Oh, I think it is wonderful.  I think it is extremely productive to just discuss it.  And to identify the factors. 

Alpha:   He he talks about stages of adaptation here.  And basically, he says ....

Delta:   And this also ties in with what you proposed yesterday for the solar system ... Venus ruling the solar plexus. … In other words this group with the second petal has the solar plexus in operation whereas the first group doesn’t so much.

Alpha:   Let’s make a triangle for it.  There is not a triangle given.  But a triangle for it might be a couple of triangles for this, you know.  Frankly you could look at the lower three.  You could say base of the spine, sacral, solar plexus.  You could forget the spleen for a minute, you know. … This love aspect triangle gives us the solar plexus, lower love aspect. … And you will notice that that is not given here. … But that is where they are. 

Delta:   Yeah.  I agree, but is controlled by the solar plexus potential.

Alpha:   ... ah, well, let me go on to the next type of people and you can decide, Delta.  You see, there is a whole lot of sacral here.  Remember what he said, it’s like the desire serving the sacral because the people are not yet the modern Atlanteans, and then the solar plexus would really serve as the major leading centre.  Let me just read group number four, from Esoteric Psychology Vol. II.  It is a short one. 

“The souls who are primarily emotional.  The mind nature is not functioning strongly, and only rarely does it swing into activity, and the physical body is slipping steadily into the realm of the unconscious.  In every race and nation there are millions of such souls in existence.  They may be regarded as the modern Atlanteans.”

So what I am suggesting is [this is more solar plexus] … and at the later phase of unfoldment petal number two group number four would come in.  What I am sayingis that these petals take an awfully long time to unfold. … Much longer than the higher petals ...right? 

So ... well now a funny thing happens before you get to the next petal (on the way to the farm), you get a different group that comes in, maybe from Vulcan, or from some other place, with petal three unfolded but no petal two.  … You meet them all the time.  And I think we should ...

Delta:   Well, let’s discuss that.  Let’s talk about petal three for a second [but]. I want to move this along because we are adjourning in about an hour.  So we have only got a few minutes per point.

Alpha:   Well  OK.  It is page 540 of Cosmic Fire:  “The Petal of Sacrifice for the physical plane. This unfoldment is brought about through the driving force of circumstances, and not of free will.”

There is a bunch of planetary hints right there.

“It is the offering up of the physical body upon the altar of desire–low desire to begin with, but aspiration towards the end, though still desire. As man in the early stages of his evolution is polarised on the physical, much of this is undergone unconsciously and without any realisation of what is being consummated, but the result in the causal body is seen in a twofold increase of heat or of activity:

The physical permanent atom becomes radioactive or a radiant point of fire.

The lower three petals become vibrant and begin to unfold until fully developed.”

So the driving force of circumstances; you know there is Pluto in this, Saturn in this.  There is Mars in this.  Low desire is there.  But don’t forget he begins to think at this point.  That is why I looked at lower Virgo, because lower Virgo is materialistically thoughtful, in terms of an Earth sign. 

Delta:   How can I get my way and get what I want; a sort of shrewd type of thinking.

Alpha:   Yeah.  There is animal cunning here.  [Yes, Taurus is more blunt] more desire, although this may take five hundred thousand years for these petals to open in some cases.  And the person would experience all the different signs along the way.  What do I have there in terms of planetary rulers?

Delta:   Mars, Pluto, Neptune, Saturn, Mercury … I wouldn’t think mercury so much. 

Alpha:   Oh well the only reason I said it is because of the ruler Virgo and it is a mental petal … lower Mercury.

Delta:   OK.   I understand where you are coming from, but in traditional astrology the moon and Mercury rule the mind.  And I think most people’s minds are still ruled by the moon.  In other words, if they have an emotional aversion to something (such as astrology) I go down towards Stanford University and want to discuss astrology … even those people supposedly are on a very high Mercury level, they consider things in a detached, mental, rational fashion, and I am going to get this emotional reaction.  So even those people have a certain moon component to their minds.  So I would think, in other words, the moon is also fourth ray along with Mercury.  I am just drawing out the moon as having an important mental component. 

Beta:   I see it as Mars, because Mars is actually ruling the lower mind altogether.  And it is what people confuse with lower Mercury to a great extent. 

Alpha:   He says Mars rules the five senses and lower science. 

Beta:   It is the animal mind, and most people are completely stuck there. I mean the vast majority of people are totally stuck there.  An enormous percentage of intellectual types; not the intelligentsia, but the intellectuals.  Intellects, rank intellects in the universities. …

Delta:   So do you say for this petal that Mars is the major rulership?

Alpha:   Well you want to say that Mercury gets involved when I read the primary lotuses, because what happens here at the end is that a actual kind of inquisitive, functional mentality in the world is operative. … So primary lotuses would be on 841, Cosmic Fire.

Beta:

“Primary lotuses.  These are a group of special interest brought in under the influence of the Lord of the fifth Ray, and therefore fundamentally allied to the energy which is the special manifestation in this system and the basis of all achievement, that is, manas. They were quiescent during the Atlantean root-race but have come in during the fourth and fifth subraces of this rootrace. They are a group a good deal more advanced than the earlier classes but need much to develop the second petal. With them the first and the third petals in the first circle are opening, but the middle petal is yet shut. The middle tier also shows no signs of vitality. Owing to conditions in their emanating planet, their development has been one-sided, and hence their entering on a wave of energy into this scheme in order to "round" themselves out, as it is called.  They may be seen in the purely intellectual selfish scientific type.  They are responsible for much of the advanced application of mechanical science to the needs of men, and for the introduction of certain types of machinery; they work largely in connection with the energy of the mineral kingdom. By this it must be inferred that the solar Lords who embody this type are linked with a group of lunar Lords who respond magnetically to the devas of the mineral kingdom.”

OK. Vulcan?

“Their work for the race has at present a deleterious effect, but when the second petal is opened, the wonders then to be achieved by them in loving service along their own particular line will be one of the factors which will regenerate the fourth kingdom. They will achieve emancipation in the fifth round, four-fifths of them passing on to the Path and one-fifth set back for another cycle.”

So these are the rank intellects, to some extent. 

Alpha:   Yeah, the mechanical intellects.

Beta:   The rank intellects certainly go up into the lotuses of passion, into the fourth petal, rather.  … Knowledge petal here.

Alpha:   So what is very interesting is that the majority of humanity is going to be found in the first, or knowledge tier.  And that these people ... although Mars is scientific intellect ...

Delta:   Why would you make it Mars-Mercury?

Alpha:   Yeah.  Mars is machinery; Mars is science, but you do see here how Mercury for manipulation for handiness for all kinds of things … Because what it says about Virgo is ‘let matter reign’ … that is intellectual approach to it.  OK.  But the interesting thing is, we’re not off the third petal, we are not even under the third petal if you follow the normal line of development, because if you read here, the lotuses of passion or desire, you will see that they don’t even have the third petal open.  This is an amazing thing. 

Gamma:  

“Lotuses of passion or desire. They are so called because their fundamental nature is embodied love in some one or other form. The bulk of the Monads of Love are among this large group and they are to be seen incarnating in the bulk of the well-to-do, kindly people of the world. They are divided into five groups, of whom three individualised upon this planet, and two were the very latest to individualise upon the moon chain. They have two petals unfolded and the third is for them at this time the object of their attention. Many may succeed in unfolding it before the seventh rootrace of this round but the bulk of them will unfold it in the second rootrace of the next round, and will stand ready before the close of the round to pass on to the probationary path, having unfolded one tier of petals, and organised the second.”

Alpha:   It takes so much time, yes.  The bulk of nice well-to-do kindly people aren’t even going to be on the path until the next round by and large.

Gamma:  

“All these lotuses of the first circle are divided into groups but interplay goes on between them; energy in any centre produces reflex energy in another. It must be remembered that in closing the door in Atlantean times to the animal kingdom, and the consequent temporary cessation of the forming of any more "bud lotuses" the effect was dual, in directions other than the human or the animal. It was the result of the internal decision on the part of the planetary Logos to turn His attention away from the act of creation on the systemic mental plane to the work of progressive evolution.”

Delta:   So it seems that with two petals unfolded, the second petal is going to have a strong connection with the solar plexus.  One through the higher part of the solar plexus in terms of more refined emotion … but minimal solar plexus response in terms of having a shrewd mind.  … Whereas the other type also has solar plexus, but they have shrewd aggressive emotions and can extend mentally,  or show shrewd aggressive mentality, but they haven’t developed the more refined part of the emotions in the solar plexus. 

Alpha:   And these are Earth humanity by and large.  Just a little bit of moon chain humanity and Earth humanity. Moon chain humanity part of them may achieve participation in the path (which is where we’re interested in dealing with people) by the end of our seventh root race which is still some millions of years ahead for us.  But the rest of them that are Earth humanity won’t even be reachable with this kind of material until the next round.

Delta:   So do you think these beings, maybe have certain Jupiter or Neptune correspondence ...

Alpha:   They have a Venus and Jupiter correspondence again I think. 

Beta:   They are all associated with the second ray because that is all involved with the next three petals.  I would put the lotuses of passion and desire for all, as five groups would be, with petals four, five and six all ...

Alpha:   In my opinion, Beta, that is too advanced because four, five and six according to what we were saying two days ago ....

Beta:   I understand, it would technically be, when you look at the last three sets of lotuses there, they are basically involved with disciples and initiates.  They are basically two and a half, second and a half degree. 

Alpha:   I agree.

Beta:   So they have to be the last three petals before the bud petals.  They would have to be associated with ...

Delta:   But, it says two petals unfolded though.

Alpha:   He might have left some out you know. 

Beta:   Hierarchy or the ego takes some interest when the fifth petal is becoming active; hierarchy doesn’t take interest in terms of working with a disciple until the sixth, usually. 

Alpha:   They are no where near that though. 

Beta:   Then, the seventh, eight, ninth, would be related to the radiant, and the perfumed and the revelationary lotuses … because when you have lotuses of passion and desire, I would not start it on ... the second petal. 

Alpha:   You have to do what he says; he says second petal.

Beta:   But, still they represent the entire probationary group.  People whose goal is probationary path.

Alpha:   ... in the fifth round.  The point is maybe DK left out some names of lotuses.  I began to feel that he did not give us the full thing.  When I read this, I felt something is missing. 

Beta:   ... then something is missing on the planet , if it is that too.

Alpha:   Well maybe then, but see I found this to be shocking that these people have two [petals active] and are trying to become mental.  I think what is appealing to them now is universal education in the world.  In other words this is what is linking them onto the possibility of opening their third petal.

Beta:   They are going to be around for a long time.

Alpha:   A long, long time.  And they will be, probably the sixth subrace, some of them are going to move more towards the path, but what did he say here, “Many may succeed in unfolding it before the seventh rootrace.”  The third petal doesn’t even put a person on the path. 

Beta:   Do you remember that section, one of the sections on the rays where the sixth ray is considered the logoic ray, of the Logos Himself. … This is the key to that.  I think it is directly associated with the lotuses of passion and desire.  There is this huge group of egos dumped on the planet. 

Alpha:   Sure.  And there is Venus again, Venus, sixth ray, home of the Planetary Logos of the Sixth Ray. 

Delta:   Do we agree this like higher solar plexus in a certain sense.

Alpha:   I tell you what.  I wouldn’t even go that far.  Because, in our meditation in DINA II he gives higher solar plexus for disciplic consideration.  And he says that it is normally not even out, but for those who need to transfer to the heart centre consciously.  So I think the solar plexus response is a huge thing, and just beginning to move a little bit more towards love, but it is not high solar plexus by any means. 

Delta:   So then, basically, it would be the same general triangles of the previous group, the base of the spine, sacral, solar plexus – these are lotuses of Brahman. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  I don’t fully understand what DK says here (page 73 of LOM): “man controlled from the astral plane .....base of spine, solar plexus, heart.”  There may be lower functions in the heart that correlate with what you said, that heart is a personality type centre. 

Beta:   Um, he says in Telepathy [that] you can have group telepathy, heart to heart, but you can draw in a lot of negatives.  Basically, the four lower ray groups in their lower correspondences.

Alpha:   See, there is a little heart .....

Delta:   I would like to establish a counterpoint to that. … Maybe it isn’t heart, just mostly instinct.  In other words, if life is going along well for  you, you’re nice to your neighbour and your neighbour is nice to you, you have what you need, you don’t have to develop your mind because there is nothing challenging you to develop your mind any maybe it isn’t so much hard, as it is common sense, I scratch your back, you scratch mine. 

Beta:   It is the huge majority.  And when you have an entire majority agreeing that everything is going to work for us to enjoy things the way they are ....

Gamma:   And I am thinking those guys who go to church, very devoted to their family emotionally, and leads to church and the Christ and stuff like that. … And they are not interested in knowing more and doing those things.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Well, he says the mental petal is their the object of their attention and there are all degrees of that kind of unfoldment. 

Do you realise DK does not give us any group here in which one, two and three are actually unfolded?  He promises that one, two, and three will become unfolded in this group (maybe by the end of the seventh root race).  But, obviously, there are people, we know them, in whom one, two and three are unfolded: one, two, three, four.  And no particular names for them are given. 

Beta:   And which are the five planetary schemes that are incarnating on the planet are they?

Alpha:   OK.   Which would you say are the five planetary schemes that are incarnating on our planet?

Beta:   Mars is included in them at least; she just suggests that there are five incarnating and when she talks about the five sons or the mind born sons of Brahma.  She doesn’t enumerate the five planets anywhere.  Anyway, I have tried for years to find that out.

Alpha:   We must have Mars, Jupiter and Venus we have been told, Vulcan is suggested, and maybe there are Mecurians among us.

Beta:   Right.  Exactly. Ah there we go.  There we have got them all.  … We have Earth humanity right?  ah, lunar chain  ... 

Alpha:   Now there could be others.  Who knows.  But ...

Beta:   These are five groups ... plus Earth humanity.  … But, actually, when you look at the next petal … Earth humanity could be Venus, [they] could be the lotuses of passion and desire.

Alpha:   Ah-ha.  Well, OK.   ... you are quite right on that, but in the interest of trying to streamline this a little We are going on to, the third petal? …  Right now we are finally dealing with intelligent man, but this is not yet awakened man.  Let’s go on to petal number four.

“The Petal of Knowledge, for the astral plane; unfoldment is brought about by the conscious balancing of the pairs of opposites ...”

... hence Gemini and also Libra.  “... and the gradual utilisation of the Law of Attraction and Repulsion.”

The rays are important.  “The man passes out of the Hall of Ignorance where, from the egoic point of view, he works blindly and begins to appreciate the effects of his physical plane life ...”

That means ray five, Libra, cause and effect, etc.  “... by a realisation of his essential duality  he begins to comprehend causes .”  Gemini, and ray five.

Delta:   And this also means that a person understands the dialectical process of life and history which is a small minority.

Alpha:    I am being very simplistic about this, if you can really begin to think in the third petal and you become even an intellectual in the third petal, by this [fourth] petal you can become an integrated personality.  In other words, in the beginning of rays five he gives four types of elementals.  And the fourth elemental is the large elemental which is the personality elemental.  And I believe that this is a Cancerian  petal.  … So there is a lot to be said here for the idea that people can become emergent from the mass at this point.

Delta:   Why not Scorpio?  Scorpio, has unity of effort. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  But you would have to look at that in context.  Unity of effort.  Well, in the first place because there is a tremendous struggle with spiritual and material values that occurs in the next petal and I think it is really Scorpionic. 

Beta:   That would be right in the middle of the second initiation ...

Alpha:   ... or even the first, because  he says there is a tremendous Vulcan/Pluto thing that occurs before the first initiation.  That’s sort of Vulcan/Mars or Taurus/Scorpio:  ‘Do I go towards the light?  Do I stay in the dark?’  You know a selfish/unselfish basic discrimination. 

Beta:   Maybe it should be explained how I looked at the petals for a long time. I associated the first three petals with the first initiation, at the end of the second tier with the second initiation, and at the end of the third tier with the third initiation.  … The first initiation she says enormous numbers of people are going to be taking the first initiation ... sometime in the next hundred thousand years.

Alpha:   Well a million maybe.  … But you see, You can’t have the first initiation before the fifth petal is open because …

Beta:   No, no, no ...that is not true.  That is just when the ego takes interest … And that is at the probationary stage, somewhere between first, second, or third initiation.  It is in there somewhere in the first initiation, the personality has made soul contact, at the end of the first initiation.  The second initiation the soul and personality are at war.

Alpha:   Well, even in the first initiation there is a burning ground; before each initiation there is a burning ground which indicates the type of war between the initiating entity and that which is initiated.

Beta:   But the second  is very much the war between the personality and the soul values. 

Alpha:   I can see petal number six associated somewhat with the second initiation.  But I absolutely cannot see the first initiation at the end of the knowledge petals.  Because, don’t forget, he is just stepping out of the Hall of Ignorance into the Hall of Learning.  And already the Hall of Wisdom is involved with initiation proper.

Beta:   This would be RG’s initiation number 1.5, would be the path of probation ... between the first and second initiation … So that would make a great deal of sense [for] all these people who have the fourth and fifth petal awakened, none of which are enumerated in all these first groups of lotuses.  That is their goal.  They may have taken the first initiation, but none have actually unfolded three petals ... except ... 

Alpha:   None of them have unfolded three petals? To me it just doesn’t add up.  Because the thing missing here is personality integration, from a psychological point of view, the stage of selfish personality integration and Leonian stage of selfish personality demonstration.  That is the missing phase and that has to come in – in petals four and five – to me.  … In other words you need those first five signs [Aries through Leo] in order to get a person to the stage of selfish personality demonstration where the balance can tip.  And to me you just can’t get that unless you consider four and five in terms of integrating the personality and expressing it, which I don’t think happens before petals four and five.

Beta:   Yeah petal four.  You have the person passing out of the Hall of Ignorance …

Alpha:   … into the Hall of Learning? 

Beta:   Yeah.  Exactly.  That is soul contact.

Alpha:   Which is different.  And hold on, no, not yet.

Beta:   Oh.  yes.  Definitely.  Absolutely.

Alpha:   Well.  You see.   What we have here for initiation is Wisdom.   Remember we just read the other day: “He enters into the spiritual kingdom at the first initiation” and this is connected with the last three petals.

Beta:   Yeah.  That is the third initiation.  That is not the first initiation. … He can’t enter the fifth or spiritual kingdom at the first initiation. 

Alpha:   Well, we have a difference of opinion. 

Gamma:   Can you take the first initiation without the soul knowing it?

Alpha:   No.  

Beta:   Yeah. That is the point.  First initiation.  People are blind.

Alpha:   They are, but  the soul knows it ... Everyone knows it (except they don’t remember it).

Gamma:   I read someplace a long time ago and I didn’t understand, but at the first initiation the soul was not even aware of it, in some cases.

Beta:   In most cases.

Alpha:   What about the ‘downward glancing soul’ of the fifth petal.  That is a  very important statement.  But you don’t have initiation until you get a downward glancing soul.

Beta:   It is one thing to make soul contact with the first initiation, it is another to have dynamic interaction with the soul ....which would be the downward looking soul in the second initiation. These are initiations of the threshold ...they hardly matter.  The first initiation is totally insignificant.  It means nothing.  It is purely planetary. It is just some way to distinguish … or cut off the lotuses of passion and desire from the inner groups.

Alpha:   There is a reorientation, a major reorientation that takes place … it is the first cosmic initiation, the third degree.

Delta:   Let me say something about that, the last sentence in page 540, b. 1, the last sentence we just read: “by a realisation of his essential duality he begins to comprehend causes.”  

So if a person is predominately even numbered rays (2, 4, 6) there might be a mystical apprehension of causes which we would associate normally with the first initiation.  The first mystically realises there is a God (whatever word you want to use).  But, on the odd numbered rays, let us say, intellectual, that person might approach realising ‘ah-ha’; there is always thesis, antithesis and synthesis, there is always that third point and by using a different approach are nonetheless aware that something greater is going on than what is happening at random on the physical plane.  So in that sense they have taken the first initiation, but since they are on odd numbered rays they wouldn’t be as likely or as conscious to use a religion term.

Beta:   Oh.  Absolutely.  In the first initiation.  A person is unconscious for scores and scores of lives between the first and second initiation.  And they have made soul contact.  That doesn’t mean by any means that the soul has taken control on the ...

Alpha:   Not control ...  But there has to be a function ...

Beta:   ... there is (inaudible) dynamic interaction until the second initiation ...

Alpha:   You said dynamic interaction.  Dynamic interaction maybe you get at the point, cause second initiation will mean that there is a whole program that can be consummated rapidly if, as he says in Initiations, Human and Solar, you  can take all three in one life, second, third and fourth. That is dynamic interaction.  But there has to be interaction.  You know.

Beta:   Well that is the late second.

Alpha:   Well I tell you, let’s look up the Hall of Ignorance, Hall of Learning and Hall of Wisdom.  If we can establish what goes on in the Hall of Learning, we can throw a little light on this.

Beta:   You have to ask yourself, first of all, if  you are talking about a dynamic structure, the personality integrating from below.  And when they have integrated to a certain point ....then the soul can project its ray down into the personality and attach itself.  And that is all the first initiation means; it has been contacted.  The person may have a contact in their life, and then ten years later they may have another contact with their soul, and it may unfold for a month or two but that ...

Alpha:   Well, it means more than that.  It means more than that because it tells you what you can expect of a person who has taken the first initiation.  A dynamic, constant orientation towards the spiritual life.  These are just about his words.  Let’s read it, and look this cannot be ...

Delta:   That is not a fully adequate definition because someone could take the first initiation on the left hand path.  They could say, ah-ha thesis, antithesis and synthesis.  Whoever controls the spigot for that triangle controls the whole situation.  That has nothing to do with the two polarities.  This is how I can take control. 

Alpha:   No.  Well  Look, the first initiation, the first and second degree initiates, even on the Black Lodge they have hopes of high things.  They have hopes of a better and greater life.  But, they don’t realise their inherent selfishness until they are really faced with the rejection of the solar angel.

Beta:   ... You said that a person in the Black Lodge has taken the first initiation, and has a spiritual life?

Alpha:   Yes.   Because the novice petals of the soul, a certain amount of soul, is available to that individual.  Look.  This cannot be decided by assertion.   It can only be decided by really careful examination of all of these cites.  … When you take the first initiation, he tells you that you have this tremendous orientation to tread this path at any cost. … That is emotional, not mental polarisation.  I agree ...

Beta:   Yeah.  Well I agree he is talking about the person who’s fully taken the first initiation and is starting the second, because the devotional aspect is coming in ...

Delta:   Well what about the rays?  The first initiation for the even number of rays is going to have a much different temperament than the first initiation for the odd number of rays. …

Epsilon:   What, but soul rays do not matter, because you have no contact with soul anyhow.

Delta:   There was a good point brought up by Epsilon.  Let’s repeat that.  Well, which rays then, soul rays or personality rays, because at this stage the soul is not overshadowing its vehicle, or how would you phrase that?

 Epsilon:   There is no contact really between personality and soul, so the soul ray doesn’t matter at this point.

Delta:   So the first initiation is more the personality ray.

Beta:   Right.

Alpha:   Pardon me?

Delta:   Epsilon is saying that at the first initiation we look more at the personality ray of the person.

Epsilon:   ... before first initiation ...

Beta:   And DK says the mental ray is the first one that shows itself.  Even before the personality ray.

Alpha:   Well, it certainly does.  And the mental ray should begin to show itself in the third petal.  Third petal people should have a mental ray.  But they have to integrate the personality first.  See we are skipping over an important psychological phase, the phase of selfish personality integration.  It cannot happen at the third petal.  It is just mind ...

(many voices)

Beta:   Ahamkara principle at the second.

Gamma:   The successful personality has to have three, seven or eleven lives in order to be anchored.

Alpha:   There are many lives of strictly personality effort.  But, numerologically it makes sense, one, two, three, four.  The number four is the number of the personality.  Then the fourth petal is corresponding to that.   You need to integrate everything and Cancer is the sign of personality integration.  The fusion of all factors under the same roof.  This is still lunar life.  That is why the fifth petal is the first solar petal.  The first solar petal.  And the whole process of initiation is the solarization of man, no matter how tenuous it may be.  No matter how tenuous it may be in the initiation of the threshold, even the monadic energy whose home is within the sun is involved in the first and second initiation. 

Beta:   That is why it takes place in the middle of the second … this solar influence.  Because it is a battle between soul and personality. 

Alpha:   I agree that the process of initiation takes place in the middle of the second petal.

Delta:   Let’s move on cause I think you have made a spectrum of points.

Beta:   I was just trying to ... (inaudible) ... the first three knowledge petals, as you pass through knowledge, love and sacrifice.  You have one cycle passing three aspects on the lowest plane.  You can integrate the personality on that level.  Once you get into the group of love petals you do develop soul, in terms of ahamkara and the self principle, and you can become deliberately selfish.  But, that takes a number of lifetimes.  And then, the problem is that you can’t have a war between personality values and soul value unless you have a developed personality, and that takes place in the second initiation through all the love petals.

Alpha:   Wait.  You can have a war between soul and personality as tremendous struggles can occur before the first initiation, he says that.  A huge battle that takes place before that time with much destruction of form. 

Beta:   Oh course.  Physical battle.  The more physical correspondences.

Alpha:   In other words it is the battle between the number four and five, the elemental kingdom – the sun and the moon fight it off in four and five.

Beta:   Well that is all physical.

Epsilon:   But he speaks also of a battle at the astral level, he doesn’t imply the soul at all but at the emotional level, a sense of good and bad.  There is a battle there.  So it is another ...

Beta:   That is probably more heard instinct.  The humans as herds of animals.

Alpha:   There is a battle before every initiation, he says so; a burning ground, and he describes the battles. So  it is all a contention between the solar and lunar principle and this stuff is open to interpretation.  There is no way we can decide it by saying ‘thus it is’.  Each one of us can say ‘thus it is’, and we have our reasons.

Delta:   That is what I am saying....

Epsilon:   There is no battleground between two kind of different lunar lords.

Alpha:   Yes there is.  They battle within the realm of character and that is called the law of cleavage.  The battle between the emotion and the mind.  In other words, the problems of cleavage result, for most human beings simply because the emotions want to do one thing and your mind tells you you should do something else.  And that is right within the realm of personality. 

Epsilon:   But the person is not yet integrated.

Alpha:   Sure, the battle is within the realm of character alone.  And once the personality is integrated, he says there is a tremendous battle just between the rays within the individual.  And I can show you a citation on that.

Beta:   Those are the lunar, what pitris, angels, or lords?

Alpha:   Yes, they are battling among themselves.  The lunar lords are battling among themselves.  But that is not the solar battle.  The solar battle come between the life of Christ and the life of the moon.

Beta:   Well where does that take place?  That takes place all in the knowledge petals, to a great extent. 

Alpha:   Not as I think.

Beta:   Then it goes into external phase in love petals ... where it finally has to give up at the beginning of development of the knowledge petals.

Alpha:   Terminal phase is in the sacrifice petals.  …

Delta:   We fully have elucidated the argument on both sides to this.  We should move on.

Alpha:   Yeah.  You will decide what you want to use, basically, in your system.

Delta:   Yeah.  But I feel both of you have fully elucidated your positions and lets move on to the next petal.

Alpha:   We are both fully lucid. 

Delta:   It is not fair. … [must have been laughter at that?]   So now we are on the ...

Gamma:   We are at this perfect point to open the petals …

(end of side 11a)

Alpha:   OK.   We are continuing ... Look have you a triangle for the fourth petal? … basically you have to look at your triangles here and you say man controlled from the mental plane.  You have to decide whether this is simply intellectual man or this is a fully integrated personality.  And you have to look at number four and say ... man partially controlled by the ego, advanced man .... the heart, the throat and the four lesser head centres ... whether that is the integrated personality.  Because spiritual man, from the first to the third initiation (at least that is what I take) looks like from one to three as far as that goes, and spiritual man to the fifth is three to five. 

Delta:   I think this would be the base of spine, heart and throat. 

Gamma:   I think we have to have the throat for this.

Delta:   So this would be the third triangle ... [Esoteric Astrology, page 88]

Alpha:   So the throat centre is somewhat correlated with the third petal at the later stages, and the fourth petal because there is a lot of the third ray coming in there.  That fourth petal.  And the cause and effect business, you know.  He says he is learning all about cause and effect and the reasons for things.

Beta:   So you have the first initiation here at the Vulcan Pluto ... at the number three?  … Yes, base of the spine, heart and throat.  That is where I would put it too.

Alpha:   Well I didn’t say that I was.  I wouldn’t put the first initiation until the ...

Delta:   ... “man partially controlled by the ego ...”   [Esoteric Astrology, page 88, #4)

Alpha:   ... even then ... just towards the later stages.

Beta:   But ... “the man partially controlled by the ego” ... that is obviously second initiation. … Because fully controlled by the ego is third.

Alpha:   No,  wait a second.  The man even at the first initiation is going to be ‘partially’, otherwise he wouldn’t even be oriented towards the ego, and having a dual life.  Remember we are told that ...

Beta:   Well, the whole point of the dual life is the second initiation. 

Alpha:   No, there is a dual life even after the first initiation that is pulling in two directions.

Delta:   There is extreme duality after the first initiation. 

Beta:   No, but the basic dual ... duality is really experienced in the second because the polar opposites that is all astral.  It is all second initiation stuff.  Interesting.

Alpha:   Well.  We have a difference of opinion.  ... the trouble, you know people struggle immensely before being ‘born again’.  And they even struggle after being born again, between their old temptations and their new orientations.  Look, Virgo, I could pull out these references from (I have compilations) on the astrology and initiations (... OK, you all can too).  And the point about it is that early Leo means the dominant personality.  That is first.  In other words, you give to the power of the dominant personality, but ‘later’, Leo gives you the relationship of Leo and Libra at the fist initiation, which means the solar life begins to express somewhat and you have to make the decision between lunar and solar lives.  At the same time, Virgo comes in and he says, interestingly, it introduces duality.  And that is at the birth.  Virgo is the birth and Virgo is also the second initiation.  That occurs in both places. 

The point that I am trying to make is that the minute the regime of the soul steps in, even though it is primitive at first and lasts a whole long time between the first and the second, duality happens.  Intense suffering, however, in the sense of aggravated duality it does occur between the second and third initiation.  And that is when there is a tremendous kind of chaffing between the two. 

Beta:   Yeah but it is all centred around the second … Duality above and below.

Delta:   How do we bring in Uranus and the sacral centre as associated with the first initiation?

Alpha:   Well you have to make a new triangle: sacral centre, throat and heart.  And that is important.

Delta:   So that is not listed here, at all.

Alpha:   No. 

Beta:   ... just implied ...

Delta:   So for sacral, throat and heart ...

Alpha:   Sacral, throat and heart, around the time of the fifth petal, you are going to have those issues.  At the first initiation the heart centre and the throat centre are stimulated.  At the second initiation the heart centre and the throat centre are stimulated.  Both. 

Beta:   The sacral, throat and heart ... that is so much more early.  That is more primitive than the fifth petal.  Infinitely more primitive.

Alpha:   Well, a lot would depend on the interpretation of the following: “The ego takes no active interest in the development until the second petal in the second series is beginning to open.” [Cosmic Fire, page 543]

Beta:   Yeah but ‘development’ … obviously the ego has been invoked.  The ego can’t come in and work with the life until it is fully invoked at the first initiation.  ... it has been around a long time.

Delta:   To me the fist initiation might be a peak experience that changes the person’s life forever.  The soul has touched the personality.

Beta:   Right.  That is what it is.

Delta:     The personality realises this is happening, but maybe can’t maintain any contact, nor is the soul interested at this point because the person is still so out of control.

Alpha:   Yeah, but, the whole point is the first initiation does give a new orientation (if I can find the quotation you would see how much he says it is an orientation). 

Delta:   Well, so we still haven’t reached a consensus, or maybe we won’t, on which triangles and chakras are associated with which of these petals in general.  Because, earlier we thought perhaps that the fourth petal would be associated with this major triangle (base of the spine, heart, throat).  But perhaps we need a sacral, heart, throat stage somewhere ...

Alpha:   Well, those centres are involved.  There is a tremendous transference from the sacral to the throat at the first initiation, that represents physical control.  And the heart is definitely touched, so sacral, heart and throat are involved with that.

Delta:   So when we say the throat we can say throat/sacral, because there is an interaction between the two.  In other words this triangle #3, base of the spine, heart, throat.  So if we are going to associate this as bordering on the first initiation, or almost encompassing the first initiation, after the throat perhaps we could put a plexus-sacral.  Would that be an acceptable thought? … To clarify, often the sacral is associated with the throat, so I am proposing that for this third triangle, after it says base of the spine, heart, throat, after throat, put in parenthesis ‘sacral’.

Beta:   I see, the sacral-heart is more primitive than the relationship of sacral-throat.  But it is involved ... the sacral-heart relationship I think is implicit in this triangle here. 

Epsilon:   Because he never mentioned the sacral in these triangles.

Delta:   The reason I’m bringing sacral in is cause it is associated with the first initiation. 

Gamma:   You know there is one problem here is that one about the plexus.  The plexus has two points, you know, and at one place he says that the higher solar plexus is by the throat and the lower solar plexus is by the sacral centre.  This heart places the two points of the solar plexus.

Epsilon:   Um-hmm.  It is what allows the transference from sacral to throat. 

Gamma:   Yeah.  And you know (in this meditation) I think this is what is happening.  It is not something which happens or it should happen also within the solar plexus. 

Epsilon:   He mentions the solar plexus to heart and head, but he doesn’t mention throat, why not?

Alpha:   Yeah.  The throat is mentioned in the first initiation because it is a new form of creativity.  It represents the beginning of control of the physical vehicle and the sacral centre is definitely controlled.  It is not the only reference, but is (Rays and Initiations, page page 665):

“The Birth Initiation lies behind in the experience of many, and this is factually proved by the lives of those who are consciously and willingly oriented towards the light, who see a wider world than that of their own selfish interests, who are sensitive to the Christ life and to the spiritual consciousness in their fellowmen and who see an horizon and vistas of contact unperceived by the average man they realise a possible spiritual achievement, unknown and undesired by those whose lives are conditioned entirely by either the emotions or the lower concrete mind.”

So they have moved beyond that.

Beta:   Entirely.  That means they have some type of perspective.

Alpha:   “At this stage of unfoldment they have a sense of conscious dualism, knowing the fact of the existence of that "something other" than the phenomenal, emotional and mental self.”

Beta:   It has just begun to erupt in their minds.

Alpha:   Well, you see that is the point in dualism, caused by the interface of the solar and lunar life.  They are partially, touched by the solar life and they are still lunar individuals.  A factor, too, comes in about the ajna centre and how the ajna centre controls the integrated personality, right?  Even the selfishly integrated personality.  So the question is, initiates of the first degree must they be integrated personalities, so to what extent integrated?  This is very important.  Then, we have to see to what extent the ajna is involved.

Beta:   Well, she says explicitly in scores of places that you have to have personality integration before the first degree.

Alpha:   Well but, think of it, this means the ajna is involved, and here we are moving up, up, up the scale.

Beta:   Oh yeah.  That is just the lower ajna; certainly not a controlling centre. 

Alpha:   Well, no, but ajna is not even mentioned. This is a mistake in citation, isn’t it? We talked about alta major.  What I am trying to say is a lot of these earlier things don’t even mention the ajna.  And the ajna is pivotal in creating personality integration.  Sure, lower ajna, but ajna, you know. … So, there is some confusion there about whether an integrated personality is an initiate of the third degree.  This is very interesting.  And yet, he says that it is needed to have personality integration before you can take the first initiation.  Some places he says that an initiate of the first degree is primarily mystical, and not mentally polarised, but you can’t have an integrated personality unless you are mentally polarised.  So you see the problems in this area.  And a lot of it probably depends upon ray types and certain other types of karma.

Delta:   Maybe degree … too, to someone starving in Africa if you have $20,000 you are rich; to someone making $20,000 a year in a big city in the United States, it’s nothing, you need a million dollars to be rich. 

Beta:   The integrated personality certainly has to be maintained up to the third degree because it is used as an instrument by the soul. 

Alpha:   And it is an ajna initiation.  The third degree is fifth ray, ajna, Capricorn, brow, the whole business. That is real fusion, real integration.  All we can do is collect all the citations, it would take some time to thrash this thing through and reach consensus.

Beta:   But when you read that citation in Rays and Initiations, it just sounds like a really well-disposed Christian person.

Alpha:   Well, he certainly moved beyond respecting the concrete mind alone, such as the advanced types on petal number three did.  See, we have these primary lotuses that come in with a mental bias, they are intellectual but not spiritual in any respect.

Beta:   Exactly, that is the integrated personality before taking initiation.  You can have scores of lives of integrated personality before taking the first degree.  We see that in the world all the time.

Alpha:   OK.   And I am working on the numerological basis ...

Delta:   I think the ajna chakra has to come into play with this fourth petal.

Alpha:   Now, does he mean ajna or alta, in one book it is alta, in the other book it is ajna. 

Gamma:   I think it is ajna.  Alta counts only at the fifth initiation …

Alpha:   He says the alta should come in at the fifth degree.  And not before.  … The mystic is not the fifth degree by any means.

Epsilon:   He says alta, but man partially controlled by the ego, advanced man, heart, throat, head (four lesser centres) synthesised by ajna or alta?   [Ajna—Esoteric Astrology, page 88; and Alta—Cosmic Fire, page 170.]

Gamma:   I think this is ajna because it is still trying to synthesis the personality into ego.

Beta:   Right.

Alpha:   Well, if it is ajna, it is saying an interesting thing here.  Because it is finally saying that the person is able to be an integrated personality, but is not an initiate of the third degree, because it is ajna definitely before the third degree, because the next one is about spiritual man to the third initiation.  [Triangle #5, Esoteric Astrology, page 88].  Now we must consider very carefully what the word spiritual man means. 

Delta:   OK.  [let’s not] get a 100% locked in to only this paradigm, I was proposing it as six basic triangles, but all I am just trying to say is I think the fourth petal will involve the ajna petal because the person is integrated.

Alpha:   I tend to agree with that.

Gamma:   Ajna, Mercury, integration, all this, you know.  Ray four. 

Alpha:   Well, look, numerologically the number four correlates with the personality.  There is a basis for numerological analysis here.  It is the fourth elemental and it means the tetrahedron; it means finally getting the lower points together.

Beta:   Right.  You can’t pass out of the Hall of Ignorance and pass into the Hall of Learning unless you have made contact with the soul.

Alpha:   Now that is why I wanted to consult where the Hall of Learning, Wisdom, and Ignorance is discussed.    Initiation Human and Solar, page page 10 and 11.  OK … Do we need to discuss the hall of ignorance  “He is entering on the fifth and final stage …” blah, blah, blah.  No.  

 “It might be of benefit to us also if we studied first the difference or the connection between Knowledge, Understanding, and Wisdom. Though in ordinary parlance they are frequently interchanged, as used technically they are dissimilar. 

You see, he doesn’t discuss the Hall of Ignorance right here.

“Knowledge is the product of the Hall of Learning. It might be termed the sumtotal of human discovery and experience, that which can be recognised by the five senses, and be correlated, diagnosed, and defined by the use of the human intellect. It is that about which we feel mental certitude, or that which we can ascertain by the use of experiment.”

“It is the compendium of the arts and sciences.  It concerns all that deals with the building and developing of the form side of things. Therefore it concerns the material side of evolution, matter in the solar systems, in the planet, in the three worlds of human evolution, and in the bodies of men.

Gamma:   Also, in Cosmic Fire, page 849. ten small lines here .....

“Within the Hall of Learning intellect rules and seeks to guide. Desire of a higher kind, the fruit of manas and its use, supplants the lower kamic urge. Man weighs and balances, and in the twilight Halls of Intellection seeks for the fruit of knowledge. He finds it but to realise that knowledge is not all; he dies upon the open field of knowledge, hearing a cry beat on his dying ears: "Know that the knower greater is than knowledge; the One who seeks is greater than the sought.”

Beta:   That means there has to be some type of mental polarisation.

Gamma:   That is above kama-manasic.

Beta:   It seems like it is above all those lotuses.  Literally lotuses, right?

Alpha:   Well, its above the first three petals too, to me.  Although I think it involves the third petal.  The third petal for instance we would talk about intellection, and according to what he said here about knowledge, human discovery, recognition of five senses. It seems strange to me in a way that he says in the fourth petal that he passes out of the Hall of Ignorance into the Hall of Learning.  Because, there is a lot about how he described it in Initiation Human and Solar, which makes petal number three look like Hall of Learning stuff.  But, anyway, how long does the Hall of Learning go on.  Maybe we can define that in terms of Hall of Wisdom, which, by the way will be different in one book than another.

Beta:   Well, if the Hall of Learning is down on the Knowledge petals, then the first initiation is even lower.

Gamma:   Can we say each tier is a hall?

Alpha:   No I am not satisfied with saying that yet.  OK.  Because it’s tempting to want to just regularise things, like regularising the rounds and the chains and the rest of it.  But we have to think it through in such a way to see how it actually works.  Here, Wisdom, page 11:

 “Wisdom is the product of the Hall of Wisdom. It has to do with the development of the life within the form, with the progress of the spirit through those ever-changing vehicles, and with the expansions of consciousness that succeed each other from life to life. It deals with the life side of evolution.”

See, all he does is life and form.  Actually he allies life and consciousness a bit. 

“Since it deals with the essence of things and not with the things themselves, it is the intuitive apprehension of truth apart from the reasoning faculty, and the innate perception that can distinguish between the false and the true, Between the real and the unreal. It is more than that, for it is also the growing capacity of the Thinker to enter increasingly into the mind of the Logos, to realise the true inwardness of the great pageant of the universe, to vision the objective, and to harmonise more and more with the higher measure. For our present purpose (which is to study somewhat the Path of Holiness and its various stages) it may be described as the realisation of the "Kingdom of God within," and the apprehension of the "Kingdom of God without" in the solar system. Perhaps it might be expressed as the gradual blending of the paths of the mystic and the occultist,--the rearing of the temple of wisdom upon the foundation of knowledge.”

So its spirit and knowledge; spirit and matter, basically. 

Beta:   Nothing definitive yet.

Delta:   Here it says, Cosmic Fire, page 850:  “Within the Hall of Wisdom the Spirit rules; the One within the lesser ones assumes supreme control.”

Gamma:   “Death is not known within these halls, for its two great gates are passed.”  Does he mean here the two first initiations?

Alpha:   Perhaps.  And also he says Capricorn, the conqueror of death.  So that is the third initiation, so maybe that is what is does mean. 

Gamma:   So it means that probably at least loosely we can equate those halls with tiers of petals, and initiations.

Beta:   It creates an inner space.

Alpha:   Well it seems to me there is no wisdom unless there is sacrifice.  So, the sacrifice tier, the will tier, their can’t be wisdom unless there is real mental polarisation.  I don’t think you get real mental polarisation until the seventh petal starts to open.  You may get a pretty good use of the mind going on in the second tier, but you don’t get the person living in relation to the solar life.  So what we are deciding is that maybe the halls of ignorance, learning and wisdom are loosely, with some overlap around the transition points, correlated with the first three tiers.

Gamma:   I suspect that it might give credence to what you say, be the end of the passage between ignorance and learning, might be the first initiation.

Alpha:   No.  Well, I don’t think so.  Because look what he says about the first initiation, about learning.  When you are going from ignorance to learning you are just going into human discovery ... five senses ... matter.  You know he is saying it concerns all that deal with the building, development of the form side in terms of the material side of evolution ...

Beta:   Well,  let’s read it from Cosmic Fire ... because that is interesting.

Gamma:   And if I read  here, on 850: 

“Within the Hall of Learning intellect rules and seeks to guide. Desire of a higher kind, the fruit of manas and its use, supplants the lower kamic urge. Man weighs and balances, and in the twilight Halls of Intellection seeks for the fruit of knowledge.”

Alpha:   In the twilight halls of intellection that doesn’t sound very luminous does it?  You know actually I think you can solve this through a compromise, somehow,  half way through ...

Gamma:   But, you know he finds ‘it’, but to realise that knowledge is not all ...

Beta:   The key is in the Hall of Ignorance, the previous page 849.  It is  when he describes it this can tie in with the 540 petal sites, I think:

"Within the Hall of Ignorance kama-manas rules. The man, weighed down by much misplaced desire, seeks for the object of his heart's attention within the murky halls of densest maya. He finds it there but dies ere garnering all the longed-for fruit The serpent stings him, and the joy desired recedes from out his grasp. All seeking thus the selfish fruits of karma must each despise each other; hence strife and greed, ill-will and hatred, death and retribution, karmic invocation and the thunderbolt of vengeance characterise this Hall.”

But it is basically  ... It does sound like the knowledge.....

Delta:   Yeah!  It is the knowledge petals!  ... thunderbolts of vengeance!

Alpha:   It sounds like once he begins to think, at the end of the knowledge ,petals he can begin to make a transition out of this ignorance.  I think that there is no hard and fast here.  I think there are just blurred transition points and half way through the Hall of Learning (this is my impression) something else begins to come in which makes knowledge, or learning, appear a bit pale, a new subjective life begins to come in, and  I think that’s that juncture point …

Gamma:   Why is he going into the Hall of Learning?  He must have been touched by something which triggers in him the desire of learning. 

Alpha:   Well yeah, he has a spring board of the third petal, he is dissatisfied with the lower selfish materialistic life, and so he enters, experiments, uses science you know, he enters all these things (like is says in Initiation Human and Solar).

Beta:   Yeah, as Delta says his life becomes dialectical.  Dialectical experience is just begun with the fourth petal, it becomes interactive.  He could just go through the motions and experiment with the third petal ...

Alpha:   Although he does become what the Tibetan calls an intellectual, whatever an intellectual is.

Beta:   Rank intellectual.

Alpha:   Well, the word ‘rank’ is yours. 

Beta:   I think it is descriptive.

Delta:   Shall we go on to the fifth petal?

Alpha:   You mean the petal of the battlefield? 

Delta:   The petal of love ....

Gamma:   This famous battle, Arjuna, or is it?

Alpha:   Uh, well how an advanced an initiate was Arjuna?  That is kind of second initiation stuff isn’t it?  Or, its more than that; he saw the form of God. 

Beta:   It would have to be explained through eighteen forms of yoga …

Delta:   I think he’s on the third, the cream of humanity, he knows everything, he has been greatly trained, has had all the greatest teachers, but has somehow gotten to the last step, and he is balking.

Beta:   I thought that it might be the fourth because he has to give up everything, in a way. 

Alpha:   He has to kill his family.

Gamma:   So it is the second and the fourth.  He has fallen back, but right on the threshold, knocking on the door and suddenly says, ‘I don’t need to do this, I can become a Brahman.’

Delta:   There is no need for this.

Beta:   The internal world at the phantasmagoria.  I am going to go, up into the hills.

Gamma:   Is there anyplace where he says when you have to renounce your form, you have to drink this cup [of karma] very fast?

Alpha:   Well, this is the fourth degree.  You know, Socrates, that is draining the cup of karma.  That makes a lot of sense which is why I think Pluto should also be connected with the fourth degree, not just Vulcan.  Pisces well, that is another matter.

Delta:   So what about Neptune being associated with the fifth petal?

Alpha:   In one sense, yes, but not exclusively; don’t forget, it should, above all things be the sun petal.  I mean it is the first confirmably solar petal.

Beta:   Sometimes it is probably skipped.

Alpha:   You think it can be skipped?

Beta:   Yeah, with mental types I am sure the middle petal of love is probably skipped.  We were thinking about Ayn Rand the other day.  While she is probably a much lower level its true, she is a dialectitian.  She would certainly have the fourth petals.

Alpha:   See the ray depends, so much depends on the ray doesn’t it?

Beta:   And she glorified and glamorised sacrifice.  But, she had absolutely no love. 

Alpha:   Let’s read it:  “The Petal of Love for the astral plane; unfoldment is brought about through the process of gradually transmuting the love of the subjective nature or of the Self within.”

In other words the subjective nature here is the emotional nature, otherwise it doesn’t make sense ...

Beta:   Well, I think by the Self, he means the ego.

Alpha:   Yeah.  But I mean the word ‘subjective nature’, gradual transmutating …

Beta:   This is one of the most difficult paragraphs in this whole section for me.  It always has been because, you could read it as the emotional nature, or the Ego transmuting its own egoic nature through substance. 

Alpha:   Well then, look, selfishness comes still in the next petal.  Still, interesting, we can’t go too far in this one.  In other words, if there is selfishness in petal number six you have to be sure that some manner of Leonian selfishness is going to show itself in petal number five.

Beta:   Yeah.

Alpha:   Let me just finish the paragraph, a very important statement:

“ … through the process of gradually transmuting the love of the subjective nature or of the Self within. This has a dual effect and works through on to the physical plane in many lives of turmoil, of endeavour and of failure as a man strives to turn his attention to the love of the Real.”

Gamma:   “of the love of the real.”

Alpha:   “of the real.”  Now, if I am not mistaken, if you count from below and from above and just go in zodiacal order assigning the twelve signs to the twelve petals this would be called the Leo-Scorpio petal, which makes a lot of sense in terms of what goes on here.

Delta:   It could be the Sun veiling Neptune. 

Alpha:   Yes.  Of course, one thing we have to remember is that in the early stages many, many years is taken on each petal.  And so with the tendency to differentiate all things into seven stages, or how many stages there would be, there has to be units of unfoldment of these petals and sometimes the units of time involved have quite different qualities. 

Now, I have always interpreted this in the past, the first part of this could be dominantly selfish and self aggrandising and expressive, love of self, in a certain respect.  Or, you’d call a brilliant personality, like da Vinci or what ever, wonderful in every way, but not really connected with the soul.  And the second part could be the Sun going into Neptune, which makes the possibility of solar life reality.  (Related to the fifth petal.)

Beta:   When you said Leo-Scorpio, it reminds me of what Isabel Hickey used to say: she associated that with the middle of the second initiation, the battleground between soul and personality values, those two signs she always associated with that, particularly Scorpio on the ascendant.

Alpha:   Well Scorpio is involved in the first three initiations, and I don’t see why not the fourth, but certainly the first three.  He tells us it is involved.  And Virgo in the first two.  So, the number six is so potent with the second initiation, with the number six you are conquering your idealism through spiritual will at that point and you could be a real fanatic.  I mean a person of the first initiation who is moving closely into the second could be, even though you are in the Hall of Learning with no real mental polarisation, [you are in] the light of the Venus soul …  

Beta:   It is true.  That would be sort of pure dialectics in the third tier is really, totally dispassionate.

Alpha:   Yeah.  You have a chance of abstracting, the emotional nature … let’s look at this, the love petals for the astral plane, in a certain sense … what you have is the mystic.  I don’t think the occultist comes in until the last tier of petals.  You know, and whatever a mystic is, however intelligent they are, they are often controlled by some form of aspiration or emotionalism. 

Gamma:   The shedding of tears.

Alpha:   Yeah, a lot of tears.  So Neptune and all that is involved here.

Beta:   But still on the second initiation the disciple has to use the Mars—Neptune, the Martian force to accomplish their ideals, that means a lot of people get hurt quite often, and ...

Alpha:   ... very much so.

Delta:   What chakras would be especially associated with this ... the heart chakra.

Alpha:   … this looks pretty good to me.

Delta:   Or the heart within the head.

Alpha:   Not yet.  Not yet. Unless, see, the heart in the head is the organ of pure reason. 

Gamma:   That is why Neptune is not still involved. …

Alpha:   I have a bunch of different planets down there for different reasons.  However, the Sun is important, Neptune is important, later (mystically transcending you know getting out of your ego).  For battle, Mars is important here.  What gives you the alternation between, OK, what is the battle all about?  Overcoming glamour,  overcoming selfishness?

Gamma:   It is mainly probably of glamour, with mayavic battle, you know.

Alpha:   Yeah.  The person is not necessarily trying to conquer illusion here  are they? 

Gamma:   ... Not yet, because they are not that (inaudible) ...

Beta:   They have an idea, but they probably intellectualise it.

Alpha:   Yeah.  You see, this is so interesting, we say they have enough mind, and they don’t have quite enough mind to overcome illusion, yet, look back in petal number three and the mind is being taught how to be operative.  There must be so many phases in the development of mind.  You know what I mean.

Gamma:   I imagine here there are four phases, four subplanes … we don’t realise how different a mind functioning on the first plane, second, third and forth are, how different they can be.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Well.  Isn’t there a battle between third and fourth subplane, because it is a line of cleavage, between solar life and lunar life?

Beta:   I would certainly say yes.

Alpha:   I think that this could be happening here.

Beta:   Well, I don’t think there is a huge … conflict going up and then when you are soul infused there must be a conflict going down back into the mental unit.

Delta:   The fourth subplane starts to be, more or less, sensitive to what is above, and sensitive to the soul, and I suppose that many scientists are between the third and the fourth. They are getting into fourth.

Beta:   Um-hmm.  Definitely.

Alpha:   Which is the plane of kama-manas?  Is it the fourth or the fifth, or on the astral plane, the fifth and the fourth?  …

Epsilon:   It involves both mental and astral ...

Alpha:   Well he said there is a plane of kama-manas …

Beta:   Yeah.  Which of the six tabulations?

Delta:   How about the second from the bottom of the mental?

Alpha:   Because it is desire mind?

Gamma:   Yeah.  It could be.

Beta:   I would probably put it, gosh.  But then again the fourth subplane in a way covers kama-manas altogether  because of the mental unit.  …  And the necessity for creating a mental unit.  The inherited division from the lunar chain in the previous solar system, of a mental unit with a causal body above it is a way of keeping humans in their place.  And that is why we humans remain incredibly unconscious on the causal plane for thousands of lives, and don’t even achieve the mental units status or devachan, for immense amount of time.

Delta:   Well, why is this.

Beta:   Because it was a way of fixing human evolution at a certain point.  Also, it was the karma of the Planetary Logos to be stationed there?  … of his holding things in place.  Fixing.

Alpha:   You mean to create a mental unit was a way of ... the Law of Fixation?

Beta:   Yeah … but on the fifth plane actually, in the larger sense …

Alpha:   Well ... wait ... there is some value in realising the fourth subplane as the plane of personality integration … the fourth subplane of the mental plane.

Beta:   Yes, absolutely.  Yeah.

Gamma:   There is a domination that occurs there.

Alpha:   And see, again the number four in relation to the personality  ... 

Gamma:   And there is also the number four , the middle of the mental plane.  So there must be some influx of something above and something below. … So it is not only the integration of the personality but the very beginning of the integration of what comes form above, you  know.

Beta:   That is why all the chakras would be on that fourth plane ... except the head, heart and throat.  The mental chakras on the fourth subplane, because you have to have chakras to modulate the forces coming up and the forces going down.

Delta:   So do we think that the petal of love is largely a heart petal? 

Alpha:   It is a heart petal but, here is the warfare between the white and the black lodge on petal number five because you have the inverted pentagram and the upright pentagram.  They’re both aspects of the number five.  Remember when he said that Leo is the most material sign?  And it a lower crystallisation of ahamkara which is the black magician, because, you know, he is fixated upon himself.  In other words, he can’t make it out of third aspect thoughtform.  He still stays himself, he doesn’t get into the Neptune phase.  See what I mean?

Gamma:   Yeah.  Very interesting.  Because there are some Leo’s type which I have met which are so assertive but so concrete at the same time.  And they have a sense of ‘I’ which is very concrete …

Alpha:   Yeah.  Concrete.  And what will melt that down, you see?  In one way this is a unifying plane and in another way it is a plane in which duality really kicks in. 

Delta:   Should we finish up with the petal of sacrifice on the Love Tier?  What time are we breaking for lunch.

Alpha:   Well we will have to break soon … [It is noon].   Well, look this is very productive.  And we may have our temporary little fire fights or difference of opinion but ...

Delta:   They are illuminating things.

Alpha:  If the sparks fly then there will be some clarification.  You will know why a point of view exists.  Obviously we are all agreeing that the third initiation is, petal number nine, so, you know we have that as an anchor point.  And we all agree that somewhere within the second tier of petals the spiritualisation process really takes hold. 

But we are having little other difficulty localising it, different types of opinions, the different reasons.  Is this profitable for you, Delta?  Is this what ...

Delta:   Oh.   Yeah.  And I think that the points that both of you brought out even thought it maybe wasn’t in agreement, that is fine.  It is elucidating the whole argument.

Alpha:   Well, probably once it is typed up we will be able to look closer at what we said. 

 (interruption in taping)

Alpha:  [Cosmic Fire, page 541]

“As this threefold enlightenment or unfoldment proceeds again a dual result is seen:

The astral permanent atom comes into full activity and radiance, as regards five of its spirillae, and the two atoms of the physical and astral planes are equally vibrant. 

The three petals of the central ring of the egoic lotus come also into full unfoldment, and the heart centre of the Monad is seen as a wheel of fire with six of its spokes in full display of energy and rapidly rotating.”

Delta:   This means the central ring unfolds, not just the sacrifice petals.

Alpha:   No,  sacrifice petals.  The central ring is the Love Ring.  Sacrifice petals are the end of this ...

Delta:   It says the three petals of the central ring of the egoic lotus come also into full unfoldment.

Alpha:   Because the sacrifice petal of any ring coincides with its full unfoldment of the whole ...

Delta:        So is that implying the jewel in the lotus?

Alpha:   Not at all.  We are no where near it yet. 

Delta:   And when it says five of the spirillae, generally one spirillae unfolds with each round and on this planet.  With each  root race … at the end of seven root races seven spirillae.

Alpha:   Yeah, but to the extent that human beings really become soul-infused and eventually transfigured beings, they are going to become fifth rounders, even in the fourth round. 

Delta:   I will try and extend that.  So, in other words, the fifth spirillae is unfolded and you are a fifth rounder. 

Gamma:   So now this guy we are talking about here is becoming a fifth rounder.

Delta:   Well the general trend of evolution is the fourth spirillae in the fourth round, the fifth spirillae in the fifth round, the sixth spirillae in the sixth round, and so forth, the general trend.

Epsilon:   That is why it is difficult to do it in advance.

Beta:   As a theosophical point of view, yet we find all those  lotuses with only two petals unfolded , and that is the vast majority of humanity.  So ...

Alpha:   How many spirillae would those two petallers be?

Beta:   Very good question.

Delta:   Probably four ... or on the fourth.

Alpha:   ... would they necessarily?

Beta:.  ... depends on the plane.  Usually ... the what, physical?   They develop from the bottom up.

Alpha:   That is right.  A rather full unfoldment of the physical permanent atom might not correspond to any extensive unfoldment of the astral permanent atom. 

Beta:   The middle only has four unless there is some major transformation that allows five. 

Alpha:   How many spirillae does the manasic permanent atom have; mental unit has four, but the manasic permanent atom?

Beta:   Of course.  It must have five at some point.

Alpha:   Well, I think that the main point here is that somehow soul is taking effect … and we do have at least a soul that is paying attention to and is taking what might be called an active interest, some degree of active interest.

Delta:   Do you think the heart chakra within the head chakra is being awakened then, with this?

Alpha:   I don’t think so.  But … ah, this is interesting because we are dealing with probably spiritual man up to the third initiation.  Heart, throat and seven head centres. …

Delta:   No.  One second.  What happened to the heart, throat and forehead centres? 

Alpha:   I believe that we talked about that as possibly occurring at the fifth petal … and we still have to decide this ajna—alta thing.  Different points of view are being brought forward.  But now that we are on the sixth petal ... and ...

Delta:   You are saying six is heart, throat and seven head centres?

Alpha:   Yeah.  But, we have to bear in mind that there is probably a point that is heart, throat and five head centres ... heart, throat and six head centres ... heart, throat and seven head centres.

Delta:   Yeah.  I realise that it doesn’t magically happen in one second.

(End of tape)

 

Tape Twelve Begins

[… tape admin talk deleted]

Gamma:   We discussed first the head centre, the throat centre, the seven head centre triangle and we said that probably not all the head centres are alive at the same time, you know.  We discussed the spirillae …

Alpha:   OK.  Let’s see if we can summarise.  We were looking at the transition between the fifth and the sixth petal.  We spent quite a bit of time on the fifth petal and thought that somehow the ajna centre should be involved because we have at least a stage of personality integration and movement along the path. 

Delta:   You think ajna should be involved ...?

Alpha:   Well ... this may be one of those misprints, from the second, or a correction from the first.  That is our problem.  We don’t know.

Beta:   Well, they may be specially one for Cosmic Fire, one for Esoteric Astrology.  

Alpha:   And that may be so.  There was no sic following it.  But there it was.

                Now, we should reread because the tape didn’t work at that time, the sixth petal, the petal of sacrifice for the astral plane .... Cosmic Fire, page 541...

“The Petal of Sacrifice for the astral plane; unfoldment is brought about by the attitude of man as he  consciously endeavours to give up his own desires for the sake of his group. His motive is still somewhat a blind one, and still coloured by the desire for a return of that which he gives and for love from those he seeks to serve, but it is of a much higher order than the blind sacrifice to which a man is driven by circumstances as is the case in the earlier unfoldment.”

We discussed the importance here of altruism and the Neptunian quality and the Venusian quality, and the overcoming of the Martian quality.  We also noticed that the number six is very important and that Virgo is involved here (the sixth sign) and it is esoterically ruled by Neptune and/or Vulcan.  That Neptune and Vulcan rulership of the moon in Virgo is very significant because we are on the path here, and Vulcan rules the spiritual will, which must dominate desire at this point.  And (oh, it is perfect), Neptune rules the transmutation of desire into higher solar plexus and eventually into heart.  And that is all taking place at the time of the second initiation that we correlate somewhat with this particular petal. 

Delta:   So, sixth petal, second initiation?

Alpha:   Well.  You can justify it quite well I think.  And earlier I had said that we are looking at spiritual man to the third initiation on page 88 of Esoteric Astrology, in the triangle of heart, throat and the seven head centres.  We said that not all head centres are going to open up; now all seven will open up before the third initiation.  But, Vulcan we connected with the spiritual will.  OK, hence, at the second initiation, there is a powerful Vulcanian effect on Mars.  Mars represents desire.  And Vulcan represents spiritual will.  And therefore to see the sun in opposition to Mars is a good example of Vulcan opposed Mars, or square or whatever. Neptune would get into the act too, so you know there is some relationship there. 

                You could look for astrological signatures of that nature.  And if you knew that a person was more or less at that point of evolution you could show him his opportunity to utilise the energies, which I think is part of what the new esoteric astrology is all about. (Saying for example, “Basically, considering where you are, this is what you have got to work with … this is what you have to do.”)

Delta:   Yeah.

Alpha:   One of the other things we discussed also was the degree of mind necessary to take the second initiation.  And I read from page 267 DINA II (and we had a little discussion on this):   “Spiritual instinct, the lowest aspect of the intuition indicates readiness for the first initiation”.   This is clearly buddhi ... astral—buddhic.  “An illumined mind ...” (Whatever that means, we have some difference of opinion perhaps.)  “... and spiritual intelligence are the definite sign that a man can take the second initiation whilst spiritual perception or intuitive instinct signifies preparedness for the transfiguration, the third initiation.” 

And then I pointed out the interesting idea of a certain ISGL [one of the DINA disciples], who was a man with a sixth ray soul transferring to the second ray soul taking the second initiation, which he did not,  and yet he was a scholar.  He was a classicist and a leader of a certain ashram and as well a psychologist, an intellectual man who had not yet taken the second initiation. 

Then I pointed out that out of the fifty or so students of DK, all of them were being prepared for initiation, and by that the Tibetan meant the second and the third initiation.  And by far the great majority of them were being prepared for the second initiation, and yet they were all scholarly, intellectual, mentally focused, etc.  So, that supports the idea that more mind is required to take the second degree than we may have thought. 

Then, further we said the second initiation is the runway to the final takeoff into the kingdom of spirituality.  And that it indicates the beginning of the end.  So when you have reached that second degree point it is a great acceleration and from that time on the petals are going to be opening much more rapidly. 

Then Beta brought up the question of will and the three types of protowill, which were strength for the physical plane, intention for the astral plane, and self-will for the mental plane.  And that desire was based upon duality but that will was based upon unity.  (Desire on consciousness, will on the life aspect.) …

Now did we leave out any other?

Beta:   The evolution of will.  On the astral side is basically astral desire, aspiration, striving.  And then spiritual will.  … And then it blends with the mental.  The true will but on the astral line.  That would be the line of the mystic to a great extent.

Alpha:   Um-hmm.  You know what, very interesting, DK gave Assagioli the project of the will to do, and you will see it in his papers.  And of course he did,  he wrote The Act of Will.  Naturally he did not use the occult terminology.  And it would be very interesting to do a project of the will on occultism. 

Now the same man ISGL was given a project to write the Way Into Shamballa, remember from the DINA books he was told ‘please write a book on the way into Shamballa’.  This was meant to transfer him off of his emotional focus [so he could make] the second degree.  He didn’t do it, he wrote instead a book that had a strong sixth ray psychometric vibration and failed the test on that. 

So it was very interesting that the Shamballic connection could occur right there at the second degree.  And at the same time when the monad becomes somewhat active because of the number correspondence.  …

Beta:   The monad becomes somewhat active, yes, I found the section of the subplane moving up to the second subplane.  (I don’t know how useful it is, because it is sort of vague.)  This ties in with the direct channel between the atomic subplane and each plane.  At the bottom of that paragraph, 578, Cosmic Fire:  “After initiation, the causal body is found on the second subplane of the mental plane, and monadic control then commences.”  Monadic control then commences.

Alpha:   Monadic control is interesting because you don’t even have monadic control at the third degree, but there is the idea of commencement, and there is a statement that the monad is even involved at the first initiation of the threshold. … OK.   Now that is an important statement. 

Epsilon:   You said also something, Alpha, about to know, to express and so on.....

Alpha:   Well, simply I said that the five commands are: know, express, reveal, destroy, resurrect.  I used to think that the second degree involved expression, the whole idea of taking the emotional body and somehow expressing it along a higher line.  But, later I discovered that it had a much more mental meaning, and express had to do with the ability to understand and express the plan in manifest service. 

By the way, the Law of Service is connected with number six.  It is ruled by Pisces, which is the same Pisces-Virgo duality on this sixth petal.  And the Law of Service therefore should be connected with the second initiation, the ability to really be of service in connection with the plan.  Really in a focused way.

Epsilon:   You linked ‘to know’ with the divine plane the third aspect, Saturn and ray three, you said that the second degree must prove this contact.

Alpha:   I said the second degree person must prove that they have some degree of mind because plan is related to the third aspect and mind.  It is the Saturn aspect.  So there is the connection (2x3 is 6), a relation between the third and sixth. 

                OK.   So maybe that caught up what we lost on the tape more or less. 

Delta:   There was a tentative proposition that there might be rulerships given for the five planes, so we looked on page 426 of Esoteric Astrology and the twelve signs are broken up into two groups: one of seven signs related to the unfoldment of planetary consciousness upon the Earth, and five signs related to unfoldment in time and space of the human hierarchy. 

The five signs were Cancer, Leo, Scorpio, Capricorn, Pisces.  If you want to memorise it ....it is the three water signs and  Leo and Capricorn.  Then, the bottom of page 426:  “Man, it might be stated, is the expression of seven principles and of the life expression or activity of five planes.  In this 7 + 5 is to be found the clue to the mystery of the seven and the five zodiacal constellations.”  So maybe Cancer, Leo, Scorpio, Capricorn, Pisces are the signs associated with the five planes.

Alpha:   Or, another interpretation, that during the regime on which man evolves through the five planes, he particularly accomplishes the fulfillment of those five signs, psychologically. You know, prakritically.

Delta:   And three of those signs he spends a lot of time on: Leo, Capricorn, Pisces. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  Interesting, though,  he says that triangle is going to fade out of ... power, back in 1945?  (Yes, he spends a lot of time on them.)

And, in terms of triangles, I have thought that all permutations are permissible and active.  In other words, in any system, all entities are related to every other entity.  If I was going to start at the bottom I would go like this: base, sacral spleen.  Base, sacral, solar plexus.  Base, sacral, heart.  Base, sacral, throat.  I would go through all permutations, all possible triangle and I think that all of them would have some degree of validity, just the way in any planetary system I would take any two and relate it to all the others.  And I would do that with the zodiac too to create the total combinations and permutations which I think are somehow existent. 

Epsilon:   It is what we did with the rays.

Delta:   Also.  This is slightly off the topic, but not a hundred percent.  Over and over there is an emphasis on Mercury, Saturn, Uranus.  For example we talked about the cycle after the first, but before the third initiation. Those are the three rulers of the [centres]: Saturn for the throat, Mercury for the ajna, and Uranus for the crown.  Then, when he gives the three major lines of force – Leo, Pisces, Capricorn – Leo coming through Saturn, Pisces through Uranus, and Capricorn through Mercury. 

                Then, on page 548: “Within the solar system itself, three of the sacred planets are peculiarly active. ” And he goes on for a few pages about Uranus, Mercury, Saturn.  So those three planets seem to be repeated many, many, many times through out Esoteric Astrology and the other books in combination.  It seems to be a constant [pattern] Mercury, Saturn, Uranus.  (I thought I would just mention that for whatever it is worth.)  

Alpha:   Hmmm.  I think that is very important.  I would say that that is antahkaranic in a certain way. … If you look at Saturn as a sort of foundation, and relate it to the mental unit, and Mercury as the first phase of the antahkarana, and Uranus in its third ray aspect indicating the abstract mind, you could see kind of an antahkarana set-up there. 

There are other ways to interpret it of course, using the atmic plane and other things like that you know.  … Well it is also the triad.  It is atma, buddhi, manas in a certain way, isn’t it?  The three aspects of the antahkarana but from a higher point of view, Uranus is atma; Mercury is buddhi; Saturn is manas.

Beta:   There was a  section when we were talking about the lotuses incarnating and so many lotuses of passion and desire dumped on Earth.  This is associated with Venus. I found this cite for it, Esoteric Astrology, page 596, which is where he deals with the rays associated with the will aspect which work out destructively … it is the will aspect which works destructively through the orthodox rulers, and constructively through the esoteric planets.  And she says it concerns spirit and not soul ...and the seed ... the:  “...germinating the seed of the next solar system, the third, and the fruition of the Personality Manifestation of the Logos.”

 So when she goes on to page 600, in the middle there it says, this about ray six:  “It expresses God’s desire and is the basic energy emanating from the cosmic astral plane.  It conceals the mystery which is to be found in the relationship of the will and desire.  Desire is related to consciousness.  Will is not.” 

She goes on in another section I am not sure where, saying desire is consciousness aspect, will is life aspect. … There is not much disquisition on the (technical) nature of desire.  ...

Alpha:   No ... but there is a big section in Esoteric Psychology Vol. II on desire.

Beta:   I mean in terms of material for students that is out there.

Gamma:   You know this is very intriguing about how the aspects of the rays are expressed, how they will express in the will aspect.

Alpha:   Yeah.  That is very important. Maybe every one of the astrological signs can be connected with will expression, consciousness expression, form expression, because he does it for will anyway … and the whole book is about the type of consciousness that the ...

Beta:   I think all the tabulations on the seven rays are specific to some strata.

Delta:   Yeah.  Do we want to go on to the last three petals, or perhaps we want to break here and go on to the creative hierarchies.

Alpha:   Lets just wrap it up with the last three petals, because they are all going to unfold in one life anyway, right?  No, it almost seems preposterous to say so but, you would have to say it could happen. 

Gamma:   You know, just like he says somewhere in Initiation Human and Solar, he says, oh after the third initiation there is not too much to do. There is almost nothing to do, he says. 

Alpha:   Well, he says that progress will be extremely rapid.  The amount of knowledge assimilated will be stupendous.  He didn’t use that word but the idea is, the synthesis petals are opening ...  Not too much to do after the third initiation?  So why bother with the fourth. 

Delta:   I guess for rulerships there we would be thinking about the rulerships of the seven head centres.  And the three major, perhaps the Great Bear, Sirius, Pleiades. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  ... the seven head centres.  We said either the Great Bear, Sirius and Pleiades were the three above the seven, or the first three by dim reflection.  We also said Vulcan is associated, but the seven head centres would also have to somehow connect with the seven sacred planets ... wouldn’t they?  So, there is maybe some ruled in general by the idea of spiritual will in the head, and then ruled in particular by a planet.

Delta:   That is why we agree that Vulcan, Uranus would be associated with these centres, in general.

Gamma:   In terms that all the planets are going to be active in their higher  octave.

Alpha:   Yeah.  That is right.  It is very interesting that he doesn’t associate Vulcan much with electric fire.  He associates it so much with will, will and the imposition of will, and men of will and all that kind of thing, spiritual will.  But, he says Uranus is the home of electric fire.  The whole electrical nature of Uranus is more prominent than the electrical nature of Vulcan.

Beta:   And it is also the source of the Creative Hierarchies.

Alpha:   What?  Uranus?  ... the source of the Creative Hierarchies?  ... well ... anyway, Vulcan is much more related to density in some way.  We will take that up as soon as we start with these creative hierarchies. 

Let’s just rapidly do the last three petals. 

Delta:   Let me just give the quote backing up what Beta just said about Uranus and the Creative Hierarchies  ...because we are going to come on to that next.  Page 99, Esoteric Astrology:  “Uranus is the planet through which zodiacal energy flows, in connection with the Creative Hierarchies upon our planet, from one of the stars of the Great Bear.”

Beta:   ... different.

Alpha:   “.... through which energy flows in connection with the Creative Hierarchies upon our planet, from one of the stars ...”   OK, well that has to be sorted out.  Anyway ...

Gamma:   [All complimenting Delta on quick reference checks.]  You really know all the places.

Delta:   Well I wrote it down right in the book; when things occur to me I write it down on the page. 

Alpha:   That is why you don’t lose these books. 

Let’s move on to the seventh petal:  “The Petal of Knowledge for the mental plane; its unfoldment marks the period wherein the man consciously utilizes all that he has gained or is gaining under the law for the definite benefit of humanity.”

There is a lot there about The Law of Service.  There is some third ray in all of that.  There is some Saturn in that because it is conscious, intelligent utilisation, utilitarianism, you know.  And this is still part of this period: "spiritual man to the third initiation.”  As a matter of fact, we are not going to move out of triangle number six if we stay in these nine petals.

 [Note, they are looking at two sets of references that tell about the petals: 822, 823, and 824 are where one set of references are and the other is on 539 through 542]. 

Now that is page 541, but in relation to page 822:  “The Will to sacrifice through knowledge on the mental plane, and thus intelligently to dominate the entire threefold lower man.”  The Law of Sacrifice is involved here.  The Law of Repulse is involved here.  Mercury is involved here ...but, there is a lot of Vulcan here and a lot of Mercury and a lot of Saturn. 

 “The Will to Sacrifice”  ... the Law of Sacrifice is ruled by Mercury.  

“... through knowledge” ... that is Mercury. 

“... on the mental plane” ... that is Mercury and Saturn.

“... thus intelligently to dominate” ... that is Vulcan.

“... the entire threefold lower man.” ... that is spiritual will.

So, that is really enforcing the man through detachment to play the game of manifesting the plan.  This is a … disciple.  I want to point out that there is a difference between an advanced man and a disciple, see that on page 332 and 333 of Esoteric Astrology.  He tells you.  ‘Undeveloped Man’, ‘Advanced Man’, and the third category is ‘Disciple Initiate’.  Whereas an aspirant is often listed as an ‘Advanced Man’, a Disciple is beyond that. 

Delta:   A disciple meaning a person has taken the first initiation.

Alpha:   Usually, but ... in the case of one of these people with the Tibetan ... you know ...

Beta:   Well he distinguishes Advanced Man from Disciple, not from aspirant ...right? 

Alpha:   ...not aspirant.  Advanced Man and Aspirant you can ...

Beta:   They are still useful for arguing purposes.

Alpha:   Well.  One must Argue!  ... great disputers all argue!

Beta:   No one believes in terminology ... (in Boston).

Alpha:   ... is that so.  How many students do you have?

Beta:   Oh.  I don’t know.  People come and go.  There has been about twelve people in Cosmic Fire. There are five people in the core group, more or less.

Alpha:   That is pretty good.  And you have a Cosmic Fire group …

Delta:   Yeah.  I don’t think it is that people don’t believe in terminology, just you are more aware of the issues involved.  People are just trying to get the initial broad stroke.  They are so confused.  Whereas, once you have the initial broad stroke and you understand, you want to fill it in a little bit more clearly ...

Alpha:   with “meticulous entirety” ... 

OK.   So  ... we are still here in triangle number five ... we are not going to get into triangle number six until you get into the synthesis petals. You know what is interesting?  These two ‘many-petalled lotuses’, if we consider that they are the ajna centre and, let’s say the entire crown (or whatever, because that is what has been said the other day), we are obviously talking about the higher functions of those, especially of the ajna centre.  Because why couldn’t the ajna centre be listed earlier?  In a sense it is. 

Beta:   And there is later reference too which is a bit confusing but it deals with alta major centre and its stimulation.  It talks about the highest head centre as one of the three points of at-one-ment.  But that is for kundalini, its distinct from the ether, but that is just another reference, on page 1160.

Alpha:   Well that is an important one, I want to put it somewhere where it will do some good.   Alta major? 

OK, we are still in that triangle, but you want to know, what are the planetary potencies in petal number seven.  And I suggested Mercury, Vulcan,  Saturn.  What do you think?  I was also suggesting Jupiter. …  don’t forget, there is a growth of knowledge here, there is an intelligence emphasis, isn’t there? 

Gamma:   This is the third aspect.

Alpha:   Yes.  The third aspect.  … the unfoldment marks “the man consciously utilizes all that he has gained”.  That sounds to me like acquisition. 

Gamma:   Or maybe with an idea of synthesis also.

Alpha:   I think so too.  I think after a person has fought it out on the emotional plane, dominated his aspiration by spiritual will, at the second degree he is ready to accumulate learning and knowledge in a higher sense. 

Beta:   He has dropped the warring idealism … and that means ideologies.  I mean incredible intellectual sophistication, people writing twenty books on some one ideology. 

Alpha:   Sure.  That shows you the blend between the theologist who is sponsored by the sixth ray ...

Beta:   One is the religions, one is the intellectual type.  They want to serve the race but they have lots of personal investment.

Alpha:   Lots invested.  But what seems to be happening here in terms of the seventh petal is that the minute you enter the sacrifice petals some degree of detachment is stepping in.  Yeah.  So a whole bunch of laws kick in at this point.  Law of Sacrifice, Law of Service, Law of Magnetic Response, Law of Repulse.  The second law of the soul, the Law of Magnetic Response, that is it. 

OK.  So, Jupiter for synthesis and, what is interesting also in this respect, is to study the colour that is involved with each one of these petals.  And how it indicates a program of activity for the person. 

Delta:   That is given though in the book, and even the colours that we can deal with and think about and wear ... etc.  So.  Enough on the seventh petal?

Gamma:   Have we really cleared down the planets, Jupiter?

Alpha:   Well.  Jupiter for synthesis or gathering of knowledge.  Saturn for utilisation.  Vulcan for the domination of the lower man, and Saturn for the domination of the lower man and Mercury simply because it is a knowledge petal and it involves discipleship.  What is the planet of discipleship?  Mercury; Saturn; this has to be real discipleship.

Beta:   The antahkarana has to be being built ...

Alpha:   Right.  Mercury—Saturn.  Antahkarana, very definitely.

Beta:   Mercury—Saturn also rules the fourth initiation. 

Alpha:   No.  No.  In a much different way.

Beta:   In a different way, yes, this is preparatory I guess.

Delta:   So could we say, for an example, a lot of people were born the same day, and here is Alice Bailey, but nonetheless she has that Mercury-Saturn septile … if I recall.

Beta:   What about Venus?

Alpha:   Well, here is the point.  You move beyond Mars.  And we moved beyond lunar life to a certain extent.  We are really under the influence at this point of the solar life as reflected through Venus, the solar angel.  (Or, I can’t discriminate as you do on solar lords or solar angels, but yeah.)  We are meditating now, we are under the rays of Venus, we are obtaining occult knowledge through close study – so we have transmuted desire to a certain extent ...Venus is that. 

                OK.   But, Delta I not sure I am satisfying this in terms of finding a single [planet] …

Delta:   No.  I understand that.  And it got to recover a person’s rays [sic?] and also those head centres will control other centres of the body.  So I understand these last petal, especially ... will have a lot going in them.

Alpha:   Well that is where your intuition comes in.  To figure out what to select out of the possible array.

Gamma:   And the more we are going to these synthetic petals, the more and more it involves synthesising. 

Beta:   One thing that strikes me in my tabulation, I am not sure if it is the same with other people’s chakra tabulation, but I have a gap with the first and second initiations where you know these planets go up and down all over the chart, but Venus is missing from the tabulation.  Say, for undeveloped man it is usually throat, then for average man it goes up to the ajna centre, but then way later it is associated with the sacral in the probationary path, and then right after the probationary path it is associated with initiates, it would be ajna centre again.  But with the first and second initiation there is nothing ...

Alpha:   It should be.  Venus should be a ruler in the second initiation to tranquillise the astral body.  And that would be page 70 of Esoteric Astrology.  In other words, the mind becomes the tranquilliser and the soother and the harmoniser of the astral body. Neptune, Venus ...

Beta:   ... Jupiter.  Second degree.

Delta:   On page 387 through 388, Esoteric Astrology, it says the secret of Taurus is revealed at the second initiation.  So that would have a Venus tie in also. 

Alpha:   Very much so.  There is a new variety of light dispelled glamour at the second initiation and Taurus is really involved in the deglamorising process. The sort of beacon light projected from the ajna centre.  Venus once again, to help with the deglamorisation. 

Gamma:   We know that Venus can be one of the rulers of the ajna centre.  When the fifth ray enters.

Alpha:   Yes, it should be.  And from that point of view, Venus in connection with the ajna centre at the third degree.  And sometimes I think that both Venus and Mercury rule the ajna centre, one on one side one on the other, during an interim period.  You know, the eye of manas and the eye of buddhi.  In other words.  This is the point when you are blending together your intuition and your mind.  Yeah OK. 

Delta:   Let’s go on to another petal.

Alpha:   Petal number eight, page 541-542, Cosmic Fire:

“The Petal of Love on the mental plane is unfolded through the conscious steady application of all the powers of the soul to the service of humanity with no thought of return nor any desire for reward for the immense sacrifice involved.”

Beta:   What is the motivation, then.  I mean besides the obvious, the soul and soul’s wisdom ...  Yeah.  It is beautiful.  It is interesting.  … I mean at the third initiation there is a sense of phantasmagoria with the external world ... because of insight into the inner and outer world, the outer world takes on a tone of phantasmagoria.

Alpha:   Yeah ... seeing through the great illusion.

Beta:   Does that mean a repulsion?  The repulsion by the second ray ... or?

Alpha:   Well, for sure ...the Law of Repulse is operative in all of these final petals ... and especially at the fourth initiation.  ... it increases up to the fourth initiation, but ... what is the motivation here? I think, in a way, Love is its own motivation.  Somehow the person is in touch with Neptune, in touch with Jupiter here, Christ’s work, Venus. 

This is a very soft line petal in a way.  However, it is repulsive to form, I think.  Petal number eight is ... 8, Scorpio, repelling form, all that kind of thing. 

“Through conscious steady application ...” …  there is a whole bunch of Saturn in it, because a person holds themselves in great discipline.

“… of all the powers of the soul ...” … so it is Aquarian, in a way.  You are dumping out a whole bunch of things under the Law of Service.

“... with no thought of return ...”  … so there is Pisces and Neptune.

“... nor any desire for reward ...” … so there is no Mars.

Delta:   That would be Vulcan ...the persistence aspect.

Alpha:   You are quite correct.  Vulcan is very persistent, Vulcan and Saturn.  Good old Jehovah.  “... nor any desire for reward for the immense sacrifice involved ...”  The Law of Sacrifice is operative on all these petals, and there is selflessness. What are the astrological factors that have to do with real selflessness?  It comes to the fore here.  And by the way there is tremendous Buddhi reflected in this petal.  In other words, you are not fully Buddhic but this is a whole lot more Buddhic than petal number seven.  So what kind of people do you see here?  Do you know any?

Beta:   What is Buddhichitta, the Buddhist sort of principle of our principle of Buddhi; Buddhichitta is Buddhi and Venus mind.

Alpha:   Right.  That is the best we can hope for here, Buddhi-manas in a high degree.

Gamma:   Highly intuitive.

Alpha:   Yes.  It is an intuitive petal.  You know.  I have seen a lot of people who were sort of overtaken by wisdom at a certain point.  They know a lot.  But the focus is no longer on what they know but exactly how they can apply everything they know in service at the moment in the best possible way.  And I think that there is a lot of that going on in this petal number eight.  A sort of a Christ like wisdom of when and how to apply what it is you are equipped with.

This is just like walking up to the third initiation.  Like, RG used to say, I know some people ready for the third initiation but their heart isn’t adequate to it.  In every other way they are ready, mentally, manasically, but the heart is not there.  And this I think is a real heart petal.  I also think it is quite severe because it corresponds to the number eight, so a lot of sacrifice involved in it.  You had better know the difference between personal love and impersonal love at this petal.

Beta:   It is interesting the number four comes in too with transmuted astral and/or desire energy which is the Buddhist principle of the four infinite meditations.  They are all to transform the emotional states.  One, is happiness and benefits for others, one is the removal of them from any situation that would cause unhappiness or foolishness.  Another is that they may be able to maintain that through their own motivation, then the fourth, is equanimity during the (inaudible) ... and they just use it as a meditation, a buddhichitta meditation that can be done at any time, infinitely generate the psychic ...

Alpha:   It really seems to fit, doesn’t it?  I just want to read a slight paragraph here.  It is very beautiful, I think, page 355 of Esoteric Psychology Vol. II:  “Release thyself from all that stands around, for it has naught for thee, so look to me.  I am the One who builds, sustains and draws thee on and up.  Look unto me with eyes of love, and seek the path which leads from the outer circle to the point.”  So, there is the whole idea here of ....

Delta:   That is really beautiful.

Alpha:   Yeah.  It says:  “The love of love must dominate, not love of being loved. The power to draw unto oneself must dominate, but into the worlds of form that power must some day fail to penetrate.  This is the first step towards a deeper search.”

 Beta:   It says about life, its loneliness, you know the beauty of love, the beauty of loneliness. 

Alpha:   Sure, the beauty of loneliness.  See, the whole idea is only through detached love, the Law of Repulse, eight, double four, whatever, the fourth law is the Law of Repulse.  Fourth law is all double eight.  Through Law of Repulse you can detach from love of outer world and you have to be if you are getting ready for the big dump in petal number nine. 

Delta:   Core dump.

Alpha:   Core dump.  Petal number nine you know.  I love what he says here about petal number nine.  It is so drastic, page 823:   “The utter sacrifice of all forever.”

Beta:   Right.  It is a beautiful statement.

Alpha:   I mean really.  First of all I think it is almost too much for that stage of evolution.  Un., you know, I didn’t read petal number eight on this page:  “The will to sacrifice through love on the mental plane, and thus to serve.”  That has to mean a whole lot of the will to love ...the will-to-good the will-to-love. 

Beta:   On the mental plane.

Alpha:   Yeah.  On the mental plane.

Beta:   The fifth initiation is still taken, the mental plane, although you are liberated from it.

Alpha:   What about atma?  In other words, we here so much about the atmic focus of the Masters. 

Beta:   Well, the transference from the manasic permanent atom is dropped in favour for the atmic permanent atom.  Actually I think it is only the mental unit that is dropped as a matter of fact. … Yeah, for the triad.

Alpha:   Yeah,  just wondering whether as you go up for the initiations, the fourth initiation has a lot to do with Buddhi and the fifth with atma.  So that when we say it is taken upon the mental plane, what do we mean.  Is not the fourth initiation taken upon the buddhic plane or, what is the relationship of the fourth initiation. 

Beta:   You still have Buddhi if you are still in incarnation on the fifth initiation.  All I can imagine is that the causal body has been destroyed, some remnant of it may be preserved, the antahkarana, because to exist on the physical plane you have to have a sutratma ... and antahkarana is probably still attached to it in some purified form.  So, you still have mental focus through the manasic permanent atom.  But you are liberated from it from all three worlds, as a result from the manasic point of view, but still you have that manasic focus. 

[Deleted much of ensuing conversation on permanent atoms, as was unsubstantiable.]

Alpha:   Whatever is going on in the causal body is somehow lifted as an essence into the triad.  So, you know, the essence is there but destruction [of permanent atoms] also takes place.

Beta:   Well it may not be, and he says that for anyone to manifest you have to have the three lower permanent atoms.  Then in the mayavarupa you have to recreate them or reproject them somehow.

Alpha:   Or find a way to simply select an atomic atom and use it as a generative point.

Beta:   You just attach the triad to something lower, but it would be much more interesting if you had actually three atoms surrounding, you’d have a tetrahedron, three atoms surrounding the manasic permanent atom from which, like a base centre from which to operate.

Alpha:   Um-hmm.  Well.  Interesting.  But let’s see if we can just wind up petal number nine here because we want to get on to the hierarchies and other issues.

“The Petal of Sacrifice for the mental plane: demonstrates as the predominant bias of the soul as seen in a series of many lives spent by the initiate prior to his final emancipation. He becomes in his sphere the "Great Sacrifice."

Well, Venus is important here because Sanat Kumara is the Great Sacrifice.  To a certain extent you have consummated Venus at the ninth petal, haven’t you?  In other words you’ve become the four and the nine. 

(end of side 12a)

Alpha:   Are there enough correspondences to be used astrologically.

Delta:   Well, you would probably have Uranus there.

Alpha:   Well, I am looking at the whole picture now.  Yeah.  Sure, in a certain sense.

Delta:   There is any one of about three major constellations, and so forth.

Alpha:   When you look at the three sacrifice petals, you have to put down Saturn, Neptune, Uranus, a sort of fiery consummation goes on here.  But Venus is the head of the whole thing.  In other words, you have achieved Venus.  What you have done by finishing petal number nine is you have turned Earth into Venus or, you have amalgamated the two.

Beta:   Ummm.  There is an interesting question in relation to the permanent atoms.  He says that when  at the third initiation the mind is supposed to become fourth dimensional they turn upon themselves, the entire causal body becomes radioactive, then the fires of substance, the vitality of the permanent atom, not necessarily the permanent atoms themselves, escape from the atomic spheres of the permanent atoms, the vitality does, to add their quota to the great sphere in which they are contained.  That reminds me of the three atoms enclosed in a triple envelope of mental essence and then the triad as also enclosed in an envelope of triple essence.

Alpha:   Well.  See.  The question is ... (we have to find a number of citations), because sometimes they say ‘the fiery blaze’, and sometimes ‘there is nothing left’ …

Delta:   You said the Earth has become Venus, that would imply that we ...

Alpha:   ... the man has become sacred.  He is not a sacred man.  He is a sacred man at the third initiation.  But, still somehow, the interesting thing is he is not totally sacred until the fourth degree, because he is still on the manasic plane.  The manasic plane is still material from the point of view of the Solar Logos.  So, you know it is an interesting transition ...

Delta:   You see Sanat Kumara is a representative of the Solar Logos, not Venus, per se. 

Alpha:   Of both. 

Gamma:   When you say it is a non principle ... it is non principle according to the Solar Logos. 

Alpha:   That is right.  Even our causal body is just a physical body according to the Solar Logos, even though it is even less than that.  It is kind of the physical body of the Planetary Logos, isn’t it? What you call etheric. 

Beta:   I think I might call it etheric for the Planetary Logos, but definitely dense for the Solar Logos. 

Delta:   Do you see the other kumaras as representative of the Solar Logos and Venus also?  In addition to Sanat Kumara?

Alpha:   There are divine kumaras and there are planetary kumaras, I think there has to be a differentiation.

Beta:   OK.  Divine kumaras are related to the Solar Logos ...

Delta:   Well, Alpha is saying that Sanat Kumara represents the Solar Logos and Venus.  Do you agree with that.

Beta:   Well, he is Saturn too, in a way; he is a whole bunch of things.  That is the solar kundalini triangle. 

Alpha:   He is Capricorn too, related to the Makara, because Venus and Saturn are the two rulers of Capricorn.  In a way he is the Ancient of Days, that is Capricorn; He is the Youth of Endless Summers, that is Aries; And he the King, that is Leo; he is the Great Sacrifice, that is Pisces.  I bet he comprehends the whole zodiac within himself ...

Beta:   Actually I have done a very large compilation on that, the kumaras.

Alpha:   What we should do is ... if we have a chance to discuss the hierarchies, Hierarchies and Kumaras are subjects of great interest. 

OK.  I think we will break now.

Alpha:   See, the point is when we are talking about hierarchies we are talking about Creative Hierarchies, the twelve that are listed.  And now you are talking about Manasadeva Hierarchies.

Beta:   Right.  That is what the compilations are ... it is not the twelve Creative Hierarchies ... per se.

Alpha:   OK.   ... but we are going to be talking about the twelve Creative Hierarchies.  Look , let’s just ask ourselves just for a minute. What is a Creative Hierarchy?

Beta:   Actually my compilation does deal with that to a certain extent. … I associate the Manasadevas with the Creative Hierarchies and I associate Creative Hierarchies with monads, so they are not the egoic principle. She defines Manasadeva as one of the three higher groups of Agnishvattas. But I think of that as a blind for the first aspect which hasn’t been brought in, the situation with the Manasadevas is that they co-ordinate the Buddhic vehicles; Agnishvattas co-ordinate ahamkara. 

Alpha:   OK.  So Ahamkara is the causal body and Agnishvattas co-ordinate the causal vehicle, and the Manasadevas correlate the buddhic vehicle.  And then they could be connected, therefore, with the Hierarchies. 

Beta:   Right.

Alpha:   What co-ordinates the atmic vehicle?

Beta:   Well, actually the Manasadevas are on the highest level, related to the abstract mind.  The Agnishvattas with the petal substance in the causal body, but the Manasaputras with the causal bodies relationship with the mental unit so that lower antahkarana ....  But also the three permanent atoms, more correctly, are a part of the causal body.

Alpha:   Ah.  Are not the three permanent atoms related to the lunar vehicles.  Are you saying that the Manasaputras are involved with the three permanent atoms?  Are they, in other words, the permanent atoms? The seventh principle of each of the lower vehicles?

Beta:   Right.  And it is meant basically to co-ordinate manas. You have basically a triad, standard Vedantic or Hindu triad of Buddhi, Ahamkara and Manas, all part of the antahkarana.

Alpha:   This is interesting because it is as if the Buddhi is more the second aspect and Ahamkara is a reflection of the first, because its a unitary kind of thing. … Its like a two, one, three or something.

Beta:   That is interesting.  I am only beginning to see how they cross each other.

Alpha:   Now normally when a person reads about the Solar Angels (and you are also going to distinguish there too), I did think of it all as one, but you distinguish between Manasadevas, Agnishvattas, and Manasaputras, correct?

Beta:   Right.  I think that the names are used on different levels.  Because I think that the Agnishvattas could be considered solar pitris; they are in one sense the four higher groups, so they would be subdivided into solar lords, angels and pitris. 

Alpha:   Can we get some of the divisions on these.

Gamma:   Can I just ask what is the use of these?  I mean why do we need Hierarchies?

Beta:   I think that it is important to distinguish in the human constitution.  DK says that the fourth Creative Hierarchy incarnates through the fourth kingdom.  They are distinct, and doesn’t even mention the egoic groups.  But there are series of quotes all over the place that distinguish and tie them together.  … The fourth Creative Hierarchy incarnates through the human kingdom.  But it has to incarnate through the egoic groups before it gets to the kingdom level, which I think of as the lowest level of human nature.

Gamma:   We have the human kingdom, and we have the deva kingdom.  Where are they in that?

Beta:   The human kingdom is usually identified with the fourth Creative Hierarchy.  But the fourth Creative Hierarchy are only the monadic essences, or the monadic aspect of the human nature.  And the monad is part of a Creative Hierarchy.  And the ego is part of an egoic group, or ashram if its conscious.  And a personality is called part of a kingdom. 

Alpha:   OK.   That is a very good distinction.  The Creative Hierarchies are actually monadic; the egoic aspect of the hierarchy is egoic groups (and ashrams if there is personality conscious of the egoic groups); and the kingdoms themselves are on the level of personality and are working in the three worlds or, third aspect.

Gamma:   So  the kingdoms are the third aspect, and the second the soul aspect is egoic groups, or the ashrams, and the monadic aspect is the Hierarchical aspect.  So how do you relate those three.  Do those three belong to the whole Hierarchy, or are they expression of the whole Hierarchy?

Beta:   They are the expression of the whole Hierarchy and I think that in solar cycles the monadic Hierarchies are more significant, but they are also significant in the evolution of a Planetary Logos, as a cosmic being, but, well everything is assumed under the Creative Hierarchies by the time ...

Gamma:   What is the difference between these groups of monads we have, this monad which comes from here … and the Hierarchies?  The Hierarchies are sort of a principle, a monadic principle, or what is it?

Beta:   I think the Creative Hierarchies, we have twelve Creative Hierarchies, and they all have beings of various types.

Alpha:   They are all monadic.

Beta:   And they are all monadic though in nature.

Alpha:   And it doesn’t make any difference whether they come from Venus or Jupiter or Vulcan ... or wherever they come from. … They are the monad.  This aggregation of monads no matter what their source are the members of this fourth Creative Hierarchy.   

Beta:   If they are monads they last for three solar systems, throughout the personality expression of the Solar Logos, at least.

Alpha:   Ah-ha they last for three solar systems, you mean they last for three solar systems defined as a kind of super individual.  In other words with their vehicles, auric eggs …

Beta:   Right.  As in identity. … If we could identify with our monads then we would have that type of individuation already, it goes down into individualisation, we would have that identity, you know ...

Alpha:   Identification, monadic awareness as he calls it.  Oceanic, he uses oceanic synthesis, and has four methods of monadic awareness.  DINA II again. … something that you may be interested in.

Beta:   I know the states of awareness above consciousness ... I associate it with the will, I have collected those.

Alpha:   Well they all will factors ...it is just formula number two where he simply deals with … (where is that?) you have seen this diagram? 

Beta:   I probably didn’t recognise it.

Alpha:   Formula two.  OK.  Page 248, DINA II (and maybe we don’t even need to look at this right now.  I am beginning to feel the press of time.)  Here it is:  “... airy expansion, fiery relations, earthy contact and oceanic synthesis”; four methods of monadic awareness.

Beta:   I haven’t seen this.  No, I have never seen this.   Somehow I missed it.

Alpha:   Page 273 in DINA II, four methods:  “They are, however, related to or expressions of monadic groupings or universal recognitions, and not of soul consciousness.”  So that is what those four are.

Beta:   OK.  That is wonderful.

Alpha:   So we are to the point where we realise that Hierarchies are monadic essentially.  Are you also saying that all of them express in three ways?

Beta:   Yes.  The Creative Hierarchies I associate with the kumaras.  The Manasadevas, substituting for the kumaras, are monadic. (I am talking about our Human Hierarchy, the 4th). 

Gamma:   I would like to ask, there is always this mystery, when you have an aggregation of anything, it is ensouled or animated by something else ... is that when you go from monads to hierarchies, is that the same process?  … Do you understand what I am saying?

Alpha:   Yeah.  Well, in other words, in a sense the entire human group of monads must be ensouled by a being that uses them as a vehicle.

Beta:   There is a section in Cosmic Fire ...  the Planetary Logos … page 1224, about the seven lower hierarchies.  It is basically identical to the large hierarchy tabulation except this includes the shaktis and a symbol for each of the Creative Hierarchies. 

Alpha:   What is the difference between a shakti and a creative force? 

Beta:   Umm.  I can’t decide whether shaktis are buddhic, mental, cosmic buddhi, cosmic mental or cosmic astral. 

Alpha:   They are the correspondents of what?  Every so-and-so has a shakti.  What does it mean?  Every male deity has a [feminine counterpart, called a] shakti, yes?

Beta:   Right.  These are the wives of the seven Rishis, really. 

Alpha:   Well then they are Pleiadian. 

Beta:   Right.  There are only three listed on the top.  … In a way these are like sixth ray, seventh ray, first ray … in a very … ah, there is a great challenge there.  This is extremely challenging.

Alpha:   It is rather difficult.  But, are they not the first ones [earlier tabulation, pages 34-35 Esoteric Astrology] listed similarly? 

Beta:   No.  They are different.  They are quite different.  Those are in the standard, kundalini shakti, Ichchhashakti shakti, Jnanashakti shakti ....

Alpha:   … So the divine lives is supposed to have Parashakti or supreme energy [pages 34-35].  But here it says the sixth cosmic force or shakti.  And now, does that correspond with the type of energy that says ‘comes through’ them.  [Page 1197]:  “It should be remembered that this Hierarchy is literally the sixth ...”  “ This first (sixth) Hierarchy has for its type of energy the first aspect of the sixth type of cosmic electricity...”   The sixth cosmic force is shakti.  Wouldn’t you say that what is listed here is the same a what’s stated here [one reference to the other]?

Epsilon:   But we cannot say that shakti are rays, because here they give first ray, and here sixth …

Beta:   Right.  They are cosmic correspondences to rays, I think. 

Alpha:   If they are Pleiadian ...

Epsilon:   But they are cosmic rays ...

Gamma:   It seems we change hierarchy when you become an initiate for example.  That is what it says here, the initiates and (inaudible) they aspiring and they are all different hierarchies.

Beta:   But we are the initiates … We have to become the triads.

Alpha:   Ah-haa.  And we won’t.  We don’t.

Beta:   We can’t because they can’t incarnate physically.  It is impossible.  They can’t incarnate on the physical plane according to DK. 

Alpha:   So it is quite possible to be very elevated within one’s own hierarchy, to take the eighth or the ninth initiation, or whatever and still not pass over into the hierarchy above, which has its own series of initiations?

Beta:   I think that must be true.  It is hard to tell.  There may be some type of intervening cycle before we could become triads. 

Alpha:   Can we define them?  These are sort of devic lives, aren’t they, above a certain point?  The Lesser Builders, The Greater Builders, The Divine Lives, are these not considered angelic lives?

Beta:   That is a great question.  I have had difficulty with that for a very long time.  I know the five liberated Hierarchies are basically the five kumaras.

Alpha:   Are they planetary or solar systemic? 

Beta:   I think in this case, the thing is they are monadic, they may be solar.  They may be the solar aspect of the planetary life.

Alpha:   OK.  Are you saying then that all these hierarchies are planetarily related, or system wide?  See, is this man, as he appears in all schemes, or is this (only) related to our Planetary Logos. 

Beta:   He says that Capricorn and Aquarius change because its a temporary emphasis, and will change in another world cycle.  So that suggests our own planet, on a systemic level, but still our own planet, our own scheme.  Yeah.

Alpha:   OK.   Well, that is a definition right there.  Better write down here at the bottom because if it changes in another world cycle for us, these world cycles are not co-ordinated with the world cycles of other groups.  So this is related to our planetary economy.

Beta:   It certainly does, it seems to relate to the humanity being tested on the third subplane of the astral, because if these five kumaras were put on the astral plane as manas, an emanation of manas, controlling the seven lower hierarchies, they are the sum total of manas. 

Alpha:   On the cosmic astral plane.

Beta:   This would explain kama-manas, and kama-manasic focus on the cosmic astral plane.  Or maybe, actually, the cosmic mental plane merged with the cosmic astral.

Alpha:   So, in other words, you are saying that the kumaras somehow have their origin – we are talking about planetary kumaras, not divine kumaras?

Beta:   This a good question.  I think these may be the Divine ones because these represent the Dhyani Buddhas rather than the Dhyani Buddhas [sounds likeà] softras. 

Alpha:   But by Divine Kumara I mean the Lord of the Planetary Scheme.  That is his definition.

Beta:   No, these would be local ...

Alpha:   It is one of those generic terms.  Do we know what the word Kumara actually means?

Beta:   I know that there were two or maybe three grades of Kumaras.  But, I didn’t know that they were ...

Alpha:   ... Divine Manasaputra ... the same thing?

Beta:   Right  That is incredible.  The Divine Kumaras

Delta:   Can I back track to a previous part in the conversation with the shaktis? It might be worth while going over each thing more slowly.  We will see what everyone thinks, page 395-396 of Cosmic Fire.  This repeats the names of the shaktis that are listed in Esoteric Astrology on 34 & 35. 

I might as well just read this into the tape and maybe you guys can elaborate on your own impressions of it.  The footnote is relevant to the sentence, it says: 

“The mystery of the resolution of the six-pointed star, into the five-pointed star.  It might be of interest to note the correspondences between these six forces and the "shaktis" of the Hindu philosophy. The Secret Doctrine says that:  The Six are the six forces of Nature.  See SD, I, 312.

Ø       They are types of energy.

Ø       They are the dynamic quality or characteristic of a planetary Logos.

Ø       They are the life force of a Heavenly Man directed in a certain direction.

Ø       These "shaktis" are as follows:–

1.       “Parashakti–Literally, the supreme force, energy and radiation in and from substance.”

... which is correlated with Leo in page 35.

2.      “Jnanashakti–The force of intellect or mind.”

... which is correlated with Libra. 

3.      “Ichchhashakti–The power of will, or force in producing manifestation.”

... which is correlated with Capricorn.

4.      “Kriyashakti–The force which materialises the ideal. “

... which is correlated with Virgo.

5.      “Kundalini shakti–The force which adjusts internal relations to the external.”

... which is correlated with Sagittarius. 

6.      “Mantrikashakti–The force latent in sound, speech and music. “

... which is correlated with Scorpio. 

“These six are synthesised by their Primary, the Seventh. The Secret Doctrine says It is on the Hierarchies and the correct number of these Entities that the mystery of the universe is built.”

Then she gives the numbers ten, six and five ... the ten is —“The line and the circle. The symbol of the Heavenly Men.   The six is—“The six-pointed star. The subjective life and the objective form, overshadowed by Spirit.”  And five—“ This is the pentagon, the Makara, the five pointed Star.”

                This seems to be in a part that isn’t put in with the rest of the stuff on the Hierarchies and the shaktis.  And it seems to be an important part.

Beta:   ... there are some oddities, and I don’t think this is going to be solved immediately.  It’s much too complicated, but on 1224 again, you can see the seventh shakti may be the one that he mentions as synthesising the lower six.  It’s on the second plane, there are the burning sons of desire interestingly, and its symbol is the seven-colored spheres, each with a central fire, which could represent the six lower shaktis in itself.  But the oddity on the far right is, the first shakti is spelled with a lower case ‘s’, the seventh is higher case.  … On the first one you have Cosmic Force above a lower case shakti, all capitalised, and this is the only Force of the four mentioned here that is capitalised. … I don’t know.  Sometime I think ... (opinions on importance of capitalization).

Epsilon:   I found a definition of Kumara, if interested. the origin of the word and so on: 

Kumara literally translated means youth ... from a compound of ‘Ku’—with difficulty, and ‘mara’—mortal.  From the verbal root ‘mari’—to die.  But the Kumaras mystically interpreted prefer to a class of Dyhan Chohans.  They are pure spiritual beings of a passive nature ... youth of the cosmos who are destined to pass through all experiences in the realms of matter hence to become mortal with difficulty in order to attain active self conscious divinity ... for, where there is no struggle there is no merit.  And then they say there are three ... from another point of view a man may be said to be a Kumara in his purely spiritual part, an Agnishvattas in his Buddhic-Manasic, a Manasaputra in his purely Manasic part.  And in the other dictionary they equate Kumara with Agnishvattas. 

Beta:   And if you have Manasadeva as one of the three, if not three, the third or highest class of Agnishvattas, which I would associate as a blind for Kumaras, because Kumaras are hosts.  And we know the 105 Kumaras, which are basically the fully conscious, controlling Kumaras for the planet.  Yet, as humans, in our highest aspect, we as monadic etheric units form parts of the Kumaric entities, and intermediately we, through the six Kumaras, are sevenfold, which are the head centres.  … Well, in that we form we form etheric units in the petal of a planetary centre.

Alpha:   OK.   ... we have to back track just a little bit, because when you say etheric you mean cosmic ethers?  In other words, as a monad, we are cosmic etheric units?

Beta:   Yeah.  Well, perhaps if we are incarnated we’d have to be down here ...

Alpha:   Cause we are an etheric unit.  We are on the vital body of a great being.  What does that mean?  A monadic etheric unit?

Beta:   In the planetary ethers, you are right.  We as monads are cells in the body of the Planetary Logos.  But as a Kumara. ... if we consciously identify ....

Gamma:   What is the difference between a Kumara and a Hierarchy?

Epsilon:   There is something I would like to read.

“We may represent the activities of these three classes of Dyhan Chohans, the Kumaras, Agnishvattas, and Manasaputras, which are truly names for the same beings but in different stages of evolution in the following way.  At the opening of a planetary manvantara, the human monad of purely spiritual origin as yet an un-self-conscious god, or, in other words the latent divinity within, is the Kumara.

“At the end of the planetary manvantara this god spark has become, through experience in all the realms of matter, aware of its divinity, self-consciously divine, hence an Agnishvattas.  At the dawn of a new manvantara these Agnishvattas then kindle the light of mind and understanding in lesser beings, the young humans of the new cycle, and are thus called Manasaputras.” 

Alpha:   So an Agnishvattas is called a Manasaputra if it kindles the mind in a lesser being.

Epsilon:   Yeah.  In a new cycle.  It goes from Kumara to Agnishvattas.  It is the evolution.  But when he become functioning ... it becomes a Manasaputra.  [from Shirley Tyberg]. 

Alpha:   By the way ... it is in perspective to Kumaras, page 702 & 703 of Cosmic Fire:

“A final point here needs emphasising. Occultly understood, the five Kumaras or the five Mind-born Sons of Brahma are the embodiers of this manasic force on our planet; but They only reflect (in the Hierarchy of our planet) the function of the five Kumaras or Rishis who are the Lords of the five Rays manifesting through the four lesser planets and the synthesising planet.”

So, there are higher and lower Kumaras.  And, it looks like the Kumaras next higher than our planetary Kumaras are the directors of the schemes, the planetary schemes.  Now, I am rethinking this and I am not sure Beta whether I ever saw the word ‘Divine Kumara’, but what I did see was this higher type of Kumara and I did see Divine Manasaputra.  And by Divine Manasaputra it meant, again, the lord and director of a planet just like a Kumara did.

Beta:   Yeah.  Well, that is the term that I use for the mental side of the causal planetary entity. … between the Heavenly Man—Divine Manasaputra.  Then the planetary entity, the spirit of the planet.  Here, put Planetary Logos on the top plane, then Ray Lord, Spirits before the Throne, Heavenly Man, Divine Manasaputra, Planetary Entity, Spirit of the Planet (which is a body).

Alpha:   And, so basically you are saying that all of these are modes of manifestation of the Planetary Logos.

Beta:   ... in the seven planes, obviously.  They are really anchored higher, but, in our seven planes ...

Alpha:   Starting on Adi, the logoic plane?  Right?  Spirits before the Throne, Heavenly Man.  Heavenly Man for planet, Grand Heavenly Man for the Sun.  These usually have correspondences, solar too but not as many. What different sorts of beings are each of these aspects of the logos composed?

Beta:   They actually represent three types of lives, cosmic, solar, and lunar.  So, for the Kumara, Manasadevas, I would say they would be called Cosmic Lords, Angels and Pitris, associated with the three tiers of the triad –  emerging from the causal body.  Then with Agnishvattas I call them Solar Lords, Angels and Pitris, the solar entities with the nine or twelve petals of the lotus. … [misunderstanding, clarified …]

Alpha:   In other words, these are categories of incarnation of the logos on different planes?

Beta:   Yeah.  You see … the three I associated with the humans would all be between the Heavenly Man and the Divine Manasaputra.  They would be threes, there would be an intermediary stage in there. 

Alpha:   OK.   Divine Manasaputra.  Planetary Entity.  Planetary Spirit. 

Gamma:   What do you put in the Planetary Entity.

Beta:   Astral.

Alpha:   See, this is a new concept to me, I am trying to understand what it is in man that would help me see what it is in the Logos.  In other words, you have seven planes here.  And you have the logos disguised or appearing as something on each plane, probably with the help of an aggregate of certain types of lives on each plane that are not him.

Beta:   Right.  I don’t know.  … it would be helpful to co-ordinate these names,  or plane names, with those entities, but I haven’t looked into it deeply enough to sort that out at all.

Alpha:   But, do you really think (on the basis of the context in which you read these) that the Tibetan has differentiated these terms to this extent?

Beta:   Yeah.

Alpha:   You really do.  See this is a whole different key to understanding Cosmic Fire, because maybe one of the methods of blinding is simply to use many terms for the same thing.  But, what if those many terms are only related to the same thing, and each one a description of a differentiation on the different level?

Epsilon:   On a different plane, yeah.

Beta:   In some cases I think there are probably a few statements that are general.  But, I think in almost all cases these special names give you a completely different quality of the reading.  And sometimes they actually provide crucial  information.

Alpha:   Then let’s do the same, just for a second, with the Agnishvattas evolution, or whatever you want to call it, from a point where you would start. …

Gamma:   Here we have a key of all those denizens of the planes now; this is very important in this account.

Alpha:   Well, what you have is an aspect of the logos with whom the denizens of the planes could be correlated.  We don’t yet know which denizen with which, which denizen provides which aspect.

Gamma:   These  seven things he mentioned are by the Hierarchies.

Beta:   But they are more local. … they might be the Hierarchies, that’s the next question.

Alpha:   We have to make sure, because by differentiating to this degree you create many slots which have to be filled with orders of lives.

Beta:   Exactly.  I think this is back to my intuitive intention, if I can get this clarified I can also get the human constitution clarified, then I can go that section on page 533 and look at the permanent atom, the beings on the planes, and clarify them.

Gamma:   How about this one here?

Beta:   Yeah that is necessary.  But it is very difficult.  I think there are some keys from the things we have mentioned,  actually the last three days, I think it will all become apparent over a period of time, but I don’t have a clear picture of this …

Alpha:   Well, let’s just look at it a little bit.  I remember you talking about Solar Lords, Solar Angels and, did you say Solar Pitris?

Beta:   Yeah.  I can frame it now.  It is on Cosmic Fire 147.  It talks about the Mahadeva aspect, the first logos.  But when you use the term Mahadeva, from my point of view, again he is talking about a Deva Raja Lord of plane on the logoic level.  It’s Shiva Mahadeva, not Shiva per se, but it just means Great Deva.  And that means, basically, Deva Raja of a plane, a Deva Lord.

Alpha:   Connected with the first ray somehow. 

Beta:   Yeah.  On the first plane.  So in connection with this: [Cosmic Fire, page 148]

a.     “His goal is the synthesis of the Spirits who are gaining consciousness through manifestation, and who, by means of experience in matter, are gaining in quality.

b.    His function is, by means of will, to hold them in manifestation for the desired period, and later to abstract them, and blend them again with their spiritual source. Hence the necessity of remembering that fundamentally ...”

... here it goes ...

c.     “... the first Logos controls the cosmic entities or extra-systemic beings; the second Logos controls the solar entities; the third Logos controls the lunar entities and their correspondences elsewhere in the system.”

So, I think this is the framing sentence.

Alpha:   Mahadeva aspect of the first logos, it starts there, actually on page 148 … hence the necessity of remembering that the first logos controls the cosmic entities or extra systemic beings.  See, the first logos of what?  Usually are we talking about logos in relation to the Solar Logos or are we talking about some sort of Cosmic Logos?

Beta:   Well there are the triple Logoi.

Alpha:   How can they control extra-systemic beings?

Beta:   Because they have the second form of Lipika’s, they control everything outside the ring-pass-not.  The first set of them, because everything inside the ring-pass-not …

Alpha:   But it says our logos controls those that are extra-systemic.  And our logoi are intra-systemic. 

Beta:   Oh.  I think that I’m on that logoic plane through, there you have both.  Because they are systemic entities on a solar level. … They have to be intermediaries.  The first set is esoteric, but the second is outside the ring-pass-not.   …. [painful, as described by Beta in an unanswerable response, but inaudible question from Gamma.]

Alpha:   OK, but I would like the list of Solar Lords, Solar Angels, Solar Pitris.  Could you give that to us?  What did you call them?  But I want the lists of where you assign them.  Solar Lords you said were highest?

Beta:   No.  The Cosmic Lords, they were associated with the three tiers of the triad, associated with the Kumaras, Manasadevas … look at page five.

Alpha:   In the compilation that Beta handed out.   Here is where it really starts to stack up.  Agnishvattas, Manasaputras, is that it?

Beta:   Yeah.  It is on page five, actually, that is supposed to be Ah-hi flames, Manasadevas, Agnishvattas.

Alpha:   Oh. Ah-hi.  Agnishvattas. 

Beta:   That is on the right hand side of the top title.  … It switched lines …

Alpha:   OK.  I see, so cosmic entities, solar entities, lunar entities; this is what you put together and it is not given, is it?

Beta:   Right.  (This I should put the table in brackets too you are right), I have the top paragraph in brackets which are my comments,  Anything I say is written in brackets and the rest of the paper, that is at the top, I think I say that at the top of the page.  

Alpha:   I see. 

(end of side 12 b)

Tape Thirteen Begins

Alpha:   With respect to Lords, Angels and Pitris you compared the Angels to the petal substance?  Yes, and Pitris to the third aspect substance like permanent atoms for instance?  And Lords to what, jewel substance?

Beta:   Well, to the three tiers of the triad, maybe the three buds, bud petals, perhaps to the jewel.

Alpha:   Well ‘Lords’ is a first aspect term, right?

Beta:   I know but I think it is below the jewel because the jewel itself is Buddhi.

Alpha:   What justification is there for saying that the jewel is Buddhi?  What would this mean?

Beta:   The causal body is the shrine of Buddhi, the jewel in the lotus is Cosmic Buddhi. 

Alpha:   OK.   But it is still made of manasic substance.

Beta:   No.  Not the jewel … That is the whole point.  It’s a fragment, a spark of Buddhi, which actually can penetrate the mental plane and by reason of its penetration in the causal body … clasps it, in a sense.

Alpha:  The question is how can any greater plane penetrate a lesser plane without an envelope of expression?

Beta:   Because it is part of the planetary body.  … These are cells in the body ... of the planetary logos.

Alpha:   No, when you say ‘these’, what is the antecedent.

Beta:   Of the monads.  That’s the jewel.  They are associated with the jewel.

Alpha:    OK.   The monads are cells within a Heavenly Man we are told. … and the jewel is?

Beta:   The jewel is Buddhic substance; Buddhi unites with the manasic plane.  You basically have the union of the etheric, the four ethers, with gaseous substance and the dense physical body of the Planetary Logos.  You have the flashing forth of the egoic lotus on the mental plane, which is basically the Planetary Logos taking incarnation.  It is the merging of the dense physical with the etheric body.

Alpha:   Is there any lower correspondence to a higher principle appearing in a lower, without some envelope of the lower? 

Beta:   Well, this is probably why Blavatsky talked about the atmic envelope, and Bailey talks about the monadic auric egg, and the triad and the threefold envelope ...  (This is something.  This is new to me.)  I wish I could find the quote at the end of Cosmic Fire that talks about the spark of Cosmic Buddhi. [vsk: it’s at the last page of section II.]

Gamma:   Because at someplace else it says that the solar angel comes from a spark of the cosmic mental. 

Alpha:   But, my only question is kind of a  general question about penetration. 

Beta:   Right.  I know.

Alpha:   With higher principles or focusses penetrating lower we have the shrine situation.  And the question is, is there any way for any unit of a higher nature to appear in a lower nature without a vehicle of the lower nature?  In other words, can it appear as itself or is it always enshrouded?  Because we are told that the causal body is the shroud of Buddhi or the shroud of the soul.  And the question is, is there any aspect of the causal body which is not shrouding the soul?

Gamma:   When you have an act of creation, you know all those mental permanent atoms are appropriation of the monad.  What does it mean?  ... appropriated?

Alpha:   Well it means they are kept in constant contact with the sustaining life and directing will of the monadic source. 

Gamma:   What is the difference from what you are talking about?

Beta:   There is a sort of a clarification on 1129 but it only clarifies between the buddhic and the manasic plane. … She is dealing with a number of things but she is making distinctions near the bottom of page, between the jewel and the lotus and the third eye.

 Alpha:   “The jewel in the lotus is the director of energy from the monad, whilst the third eye directs the energy of the Ego on the physical plane.”  You see, in a certain sense the jewel in the lotus is the monadic objection.

Beta:   Right.  And the third eye we know is the result of the three head centres; it is not the eye of the soul. But it is the third eye which seems to be ...

Alpha:  

“The jewel in the Lotus is the centre of force which links the buddhic and mental planes. When it is to be seen and felt, the man can function consciously on the buddhic plane. The third eye links the awakened physical plane man with the astral or subjective world, and enables him to function consciously there.”

And that, analogically speaking, the third eye is etheric, so the law of analogy tells us that the ethericness of the third eye is analogous to the monasicness of the jewel in the lotus interpenetrated by buddhi.  … I have no question about buddhi ... I am just questioning the question of envelope.

 “The jewel, or diamond concealed by the egoic lotus, is the window of the Monad or Spirit whereby he looks outward into the three worlds. The third eye is the window of the Ego or soul functioning on the physical plane whereby he looks inward into the three worlds.  The jewel in the lotus is situated between manas and buddhi...”

Whoa!  “The jewel in the lotus is situated between manas and buddhi”  Whoa!  The jewel is situated between manas and buddhi. 

Beta:   That is (inaudible) ... [at least.]

Alpha:   I have here (in my first reading of this fifteen years ago) a big turquoise question mark.

Gamma:   Is it what you call the laya point?

Alpha:   Well, it could be considered a transition point between planes.

Gamma:   You have those things ... I am sure you have those things in centres; in all centres you must have a point which allows you to move from a centre which is non space, non-dimensional, which allows you to go from one centre to the other. … That is what you call a laya point.  So this is an example.

Alpha:   That is interesting.  But laya points unless I am mistaken are considered to be passive and  homogeneous, and not directive.

Beta:   That is because it is passive to the world of the Planetary Logos I think.  Humanly it would be completely passive, but from the point of view of the Planetary Logos it is a control point. 

Alpha:   Somehow the jewel is a power house.

Delta:   I agree.  The jewel is directed whereas the laya points and the chakras are sort of neutral. 

Beta:   I see what you mean.

Alpha:   (inaudible) ... yeah.  That is a point to consider.  But it is a fascinating consideration there ... this idea of between manas and buddhi.  I mean, that is a real  ...

Gamma:   You have the confirmation of that theory, here, he says “The jewel, or diamond concealed ... is the window ...”  So a window is a point where you can go from something to another.

Alpha:   Yes.  But a window is interesting because a window does not … you see, a window has material by which it is closed.  A window is a something.  It can be opened; it can be closed.  If the window is closed there is a pane of glass separating you from the free space behind it.  If it is open, then the free space flows through.

Gamma:   One of the questions we had is what is a dimension?

Epsilon:   You speak of laya, they are like doors (didn’t say windows) ... [reading] “which lead in two directions, downwards and upwards, or rather, outwards and inwards, but some deal only with matter …”  and so on ... 
“The heart or centre of any being is a laya centre through which lives of many grades constantly flow back and forth”’

Beta:   That is like Hierarchy having Shamballa and Humanity flow two ways.  … I have a key for something we were looking at before, the table of the seven hierarchies on 1224.  And actually I have answer to you that may clarify the buddhi.  … I will read the section on the bottom of 1225, first noting in the table on 1224 that it is the second hierarchy that is called The Burning Sons of Desire.  The Lords of Sacrifice, of Compassion, the Lords of Knowledge … all are subsidiary to the Burning Sons of Desire.

Alpha:   Yes.  (By the way there has been a problem using that term Burning Sons of Desire because if I remember correctly he applies it to the first hierarchy as well as the second hierarchy.  I will show you when I read it.)

Beta:   So, 1225:

“The symbols of the seven Creative Hierarchies now in manifestation are all enclosed in a circle denoting limitation and the circumscribing of the Life. All these hierarchies are Sons of Desire, and are paramountly an expression of the desire for manifested life of the solar Logos. They receive their primary impulse from the cosmic astral plane.”

So these are shaktis.  The shaktis must, well, could be cosmic astral.

“They are also the expression of a vibration emanating from the second row of petals in the logoic Lotus on the cosmic mental plane.”

So they are carrying down the energy of the Rishis, from the buddhic I guess.  It doesn’t quite go down to buddhi.

“They are, therefore, one and all an expression of His love nature, and it is for this reason that buddhi is found at the heart of the tiniest atom, or what we call in this system, electric fire. For the positive central life of every form is but an expression of cosmic buddhi.”

A a fantastic quote. 

“... and the downpouring of a love which has its source in the Heart of the Solar Logos; this is itself an emanating principle from the ONE ABOVE OUR LOGOS, HE OF WHOM NAUGHT MAY BE SAID.”

Alpha:   “... For the positive central life of every form is but an expression of cosmic buddhi, and the downpouring of a love which has its source in the Heart of the Solar Logos...”  Are they equating the two, “the downpouring of the love” is what?  Is that cosmic buddhi?

Beta:   It must be, because, even though the Solar Logos is astrally polarised, its personality is soul infused. 

Alpha:   Well we have to ask, is the personality completely soul infused yet? ... because there is a certain struggle going on in the Logos ....

Beta:   It could be completely soul infused, it is taking the fourth initiation ...

Alpha:   Taking fourth initiation ... but not yet the third. … “this is itself an emanating principle from the ONE ABOVE OUR LOGOS, HE OF WHOM NAUGHT MAY BE SAID.”  It is quite interesting that the one above our Logos may not have ... (well, here we go, I hesitate to get into this, but) it may be the Sirian Lord   and not the one above that.  In other words it may be a constellational lord rather than a super constellational lord. 

Beta:   Right. ... associated with the Solar Logos’s causal body?

Alpha:   Yeah.  Exactly.  The Sirian logos would have a whole lot to say about the causal body of our Solar Logos.  Well, where are we?  We were talking about hierarchies, you know? 

Gamma:   This is a can of worms. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  I’ll tell you, string theory!  Cosmic Lords, Solar Lords, Lunar Lords, monads, egos, personalities, cosmic entities, solar entities, lunar entities …  OK.   Now what?

                I had a question earlier.  And I think it is a question that is practical.  What can we say about the human being which makes its correspond to Planetary Logos, Ray Lords, Spirits before the Throne, Heavenly Man ... etc? When we look at the human constitution and the entities which comprise it which are often hierarchies, what can we say to make a parallel between the human being and the Planetary Logos? 

Beta:   Maybe, these are names for the planetary principles. … We would just use our principles because we are monadic, we are [made up of?] seven centres.

Alpha:   So is the Spirits before the Throne on the third plane a bit like the holy spirit of man or manas …?

Beta:   Spirits before the Throne I would associate that with atma.

Alpha:   Well, that is what I mean.  You see it is atma, but in another place the holy spirit is put on the plane of atma.  … The ray lords … is a term which is so much larger than the Planetary Logos that it is so often referred to the Planetary Logos in a limiting sense.  See, Spirits before the Throne, I always thought of them as the seven ray lives within any system.  I always equated them, always said, within Shamballa are the Spirits before the Throne, each one of them carries a ray. … They are embodied rays.  So what are Ray Lords?  Are they unembodied rays? 

Beta:   Oh so they must be like either monadic or a causal principles, probably a monadic.  The Ray Lords would be monadic.

Alpha:   They seem to be monadic, yeah.  In other words, if we are taking Beta’s definition of the differentiations of the Planetary Logos, and starting (interestingly) from the logoic plane (where the Planetary Logos does not start) ...

Beta:   Right.  I think these correspond to the cosmic plane, or the prakritic plane as well.

Alpha:   But, then, it shouldn’t be a Planetary Logos, should it?  … Wouldn’t you say that it is taking the Planetary Logos too high to put its monad on the logoic prakritic plane?  What are you going to do with the Solar Logos?

Beta:   I have my big question.  I am not too concerned about it yet because I need to clarify a lot of other things, but one thing that bothers me is that on the third, the cosmic mental plane, is the Planetary Logoic causal body, on the third subplane. … and the Solar Logoic causal body is on the fist subplane.

Alpha:   Yeah.  There is nothing in between.

Beta:   Right.  And I keep on thinking, if it is on the first subplane, it must be a jewel.  If it is a jewel then it is up in seven higher planes.

Alpha:   Wait a second, let me get that.  If it is a jewel, if on the first subplane of the cosmic mental plane, it  is a jewel  … well, wait is there not always a jewel no matter where the causal body is located?

Beta:   Ah ... yeah.  That is true, but the jewel essence would have to be at least atomic because it is a combination, so it is (now we know) between the manasic and buddhic, and, oh my gosh.  Well if it is between the manasic and buddhic planes conceivably it could be cosmic buddhi somehow dragged down into this lower level. … Through the constitution of some great entity, the physical constitution of a great entity. 

Alpha:   Yeah.   It is all dawning, but it is about destroying my mind.

(Many Voices:  Laughter.)

Delta:   It is hypothetical, but what is the question you are asking?  What are the Ray Lords, or what are you asking?

Alpha:   Well, you see how Beta brought down the seven differentiations of a Planetary Logos.   He did them this way: Planetary Logos, Ray Lords, Spirits before the Throne, Heavenly Man, Divine Manasaputra, Planetary Entity, etc.  And I was simply asking what is the source of these beings?  I was saying, look, you have a Planetary Logos here but we all know that a Planetary Logos begins on our monadic plane.  Ok?  But that is not what the monad of the Planetary Logos is at all.  It is just that the manifestation of a Planetary Logos somehow begins on our monadic plane.  And I questioned him and asked,  Why did you put it on the logoic?  And he says no, I put it on the prakritic logoic, which means I put it on the cosmic logoic plane.  And then I asked, Isn’t that too high?

Gamma:   Oh, yeah it is too high.

Alpha:   And then he says, one thing that bothers me is that the causal body of the Planetary Logos is on the third subplane of the cosmic mental, whereas the Solar Logoic causal body is on the first subplane. 

… Hey, before I forget it, what about Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva?  Maybe their causal bodies are upon the second?  In other words you have three entities midway between the Planetary Logos and the Solar Logos.  They are a trinity.  Maybe their causal bodies are on the second?

Delta:   So we are discussing the source of the hierarchies now, and the rays, rather than the rays and hierarchies themselves?

Alpha:   Well, what we did is made a hierarchy out of the Planetary Logos’s constitution, and we made it in such a way that it should correspond to our own principles, but we are not quite sure how yet.  We made a hierarchy out of that.  We did not take the twelve creative hierarchies and talk about what they were.  We almost started to do that when we looked at The Initiates, the Human Hierarchy, but we diverted, I think. 

Delta:   OK. 

Epsilon:   Would you be ready for a five o’clock mantrum or not?

Alpha:   Would it break our train of insane thought?

Delta:   No.  Because we haven’t really been discussing the Hierarchies as much as we might have.

Alpha:   OK.  So, Delta is hoping for a shift in direction brought on by the five o’clock mantrum.  It is OK. with me; OK with you, Beta?

Beta:   Sure.

Alpha:   In other words, Beta, I’ll tell you what, before I leave here this afternoon I would like to know your opinion of the Third Creative Hierarchy, the Second, and the First.

Beta:   Ahhhh.

Alpha:   I know.  It is painful.  But I would really like to know.

Beta:   He says that they correspond somewhat to the mental, emotional and physical vibrations or purposes of the logos.

Alpha:   OK, well, let’s see if we can say the five o’clock mantrum … and hope for its therapeutic effect.

(tape paused)

Epsilon:   When we speak of the power of the one life  ... or the love of the one soul ... at which level are we?

Delta:   All levels.

Alpha:   Practically speaking, planetary, but ideally, universal.  That is my opinion.

Gamma:   How about soul?  Is that Vishnu?

Alpha:   Yeah.  Solar is nice.  But, when you stop to think about it we are a cell within a Heavenly Man or Planetary Logos (depending upon how you want to look it).  And that power of that source to a cell, I think we are an atom within the life of a Solar Logos. So it depends on what you want to invoke.  … maybe it depends on how you want to think.  I think most of us, practically, are trying to build the antahkarana and come into the spiritual triad which makes us part of the life of the Planetary Logos.  That is practical.  As far a the Solar Logos goes, it is all pervading, marvellous to contemplate, very inspirational in terms of the Gayatri,  but practically our next step is to become what we are within the Planetary Logos.  It is within reach if we build the antahkarana. 

                Yeah.  OK   so, look, we are attempting here to look at a couple of hierarchies ...

Delta:   So we don’t want to discuss the relation between the hierarchies and the rays first?

Alpha:   How do we know what it is before we define what these hierarchies are?  I mean, well, we could.

Delta:   Let’s define the Hierarchies then. 

Alpha:   OK.  Well, we began by doing that.  We said they are the monadic aspect.

Delta:   They are the life force of a Heavenly Man in terms of a certain direction. 

Alpha:   OK.  Are all the twelve Creative Hierarchies somehow monads within the Planetary Logos or are they extra planetary?  And the question seemed to come up, will this change in another world cycle, which related them to the planets.  So, are all of these lives within our Planetary Logos?  That is a question. 

Delta:   So they don’t have to permanently be within our Planetary Logos but they are now.  That is how I would think of it.

Alpha:   So these are different orders of monads which are somehow contained within the body of manifestation of our Planetary Logos. 

Gamma:   As it evolves, the type of monad is going to be changed.

Beta:   Um, and they can be switched from scheme to scheme, through their monadic cycles.

Alpha:   Um-hmm.  Nor do they necessarily stop on the fifth subplane, or the third subplane of the astral plane.  And that is Raimo Keloharju’s whole thesis, he continues taking the hierarchies up all the subplanes until he reaches the causal body of the Planetary Logos.  And somehow they will correlate all of these different types of lives.  So, in other words, there is more than twelve (monads).  He keeps on going subplane by subplane.   Well, you know, he is third ray...

Beta:   He doesn’t have traditional names for them though?

Alpha:    Maybe not, or he makes them numerical.

Beta:   But it is a way of examining them.

Alpha:   Yeah.  So, but the question is, these are planetary to you?

Beta:   I think so, must be.  I think these five kumaras are probably local because the five liberated hierarchies represent the five, the sum total of manas and the five kumaras, they are planetary kumaras … related to Dhyani Buddhas. But Dhyani Buddhas are planetary systems, and they … You asked about the top three planes …

Alpha:   The top three hierarchies.

Beta:   There is a statement that if I can find it, the first three hierarchies (between page 38 & 40 of Esoteric Astrology).  Top of page 40:   “The first (sixth) Hierarchy might be viewed as endeavouring to express the mental vibration of the solar Logos and the second, His emotional, or cosmic astral, nature.”

Alpha:   What are the implications of that statement? 

Beta & Delta:   So the Burning Sons of Desire ... are related to the Second hierarchy ... on page 35 ...

Alpha:   “These lives are called "the burning Sons of Desire" and were the Sons of Necessity.”

Beta:   That is a qualified statement. 

Delta:   … involved through the sixth sphere in a sense.  It doesn’t say the Sixth Hierarchy.

Alpha:   No.  It is all under the sixth Hierarchy. 

Delta:   Well, wait, it says “the first (sixth) Hierarchy has for its type of energy the first type of the sixth” … So the first Hierarchy is the sixth.

Alpha:   Yeah.  That is right.  And that is the one called the Divine Lives.

Delta:   What is wrong with that?

Beta:   Look at the tabulation.  On the tabulation on both of these it says the Burning sons of desire are on the second plane.  … These lives are called “the burning Sons of Desire”, or were the ‘Sons of Necessity’. 

Alpha:   Are you saying that in fact they’re mistakenly called the “burning Sons of Desire”?

Beta:   Because if they are called Sons of Necessity on the first plane ... like saying logoic.

Alpha:   And then it goes on to say “burned to know” which fits right in with .... the fact that he is not saying that it is a false statement ... that they did burn to know.

Delta:   They are associated with fire also ... page 35 in the comments.

Beta:   “Hence do they suffer”.   Well, they are called by their astral name because it is an astrally polarised Planetary Logos. 

Alpha:   Although they are representing the cosmic mental vibration.   I mean Leo in a sense.  Leo after all rules causal bodies in general, so you can see cosmic mental there.  A line of cosmic will ...

Delta:   Doesn’t the first house rule causal bodies?

Alpha:   Yeah.  And the first house rules causal bodies, and also when you look at it you see what has to build up in the fifth house is that as well.  In other words Leo rules the Ahamkara principle by which the causal body is characterised.  It makes sense that both the sun and  Uranus …

Anyway it deserves pondering for you see it is the same name for two hierarchies, and it even makes sense in the second hierarchy too because the second  hierarchy is sixth from the bottom.  The first Hierarchy is sixth from the top.  You know the number six characterises both of them.  Desire is involved.  … Maybe the mystery of the sphinx is the union of these two hierarchies.  You know the Lion and the Virgin. 

Beta:   He says the mystery of the sphinx is not the mystery of the soul and its vehicle but the mystery of the higher mind and the lower mind.

Alpha:   Well OK, true, but this would take it even higher wouldn’t it?  It would take it up into a realm.  I used to think … I really made a mistake here, I think … when it said that the second Hierarchy was a source of the monads themselves.  Now you see ... What really threw me off  here was that the monads are cells within a Heavenly Man. 

Beta:   Oh.  My God.  OK so this explains it I think, on this 1224 diagram.  Yeah?  The first, second and third Hierarchies are listed six, seven and one. 

Alpha:   In terms of forces ... (inaudible).

Beta:   Yeah.  However, the Hierarchy one is called six.  Hierarchy two is called seven.  Hierarchy three is sometimes called … it is peculiarly interesting, look closely at the second paragraph of Hierarchy two:

“This Hierarchy, which is literally the seventh, is the influx into our system of those Lives who in the first solar system remained on their own plane, being too sinless and holy to find opportunity in that very material and intellectual evolution.”

So evidently they were holdovers from the first solar system and would not, refused, to incarnate, and they came here instead.

Alpha:   Uhhh, Yeah.  And they can’t even incarnate now can they? 

“Even in this, they will find it impossible to do more than influence the incarnating Jivas, imparting to them ability to realise the nature of group consciousness, the quality of the seven Heavenly Men, but not being able to express themselves fully.  Some clues to this mystery will come if the student carefully bears in mind that in our solar system and our seven planes, we have only the physical body of the Logos, and that that physical body is a limitation of the expression of His three old nature.  The first (sixth) Hierarchy might be viewed as endeavouring to express the mental vibration of the solar Logos and the second, His emotional, or cosmic astral, nature.

I am still unhappy about not knowing what it means that they are prototypes of the monads and sources of monadic life.

Gamma:   Where does that say that?

Alpha:   That is on page 39 … (You pointed it out to me, if you recall that!)

Delta:   It says they are far higher.

Alpha:   Yeah.  The Manu is the prototype of the human being, so the question, it uses the word source and I cannot think but that a Heavenly Man is the source of the monad. 

Beta:   Or, an entity ... or something higher, uh, the Heavenly Man is the source of the monad. 

Alpha:   Well.  Let’s put it like this, if a monad and a deva is a cell in a Heavenly Man, is the Heavenly Man the source of the monads or something else?  What does it mean to be the source of a monad?

Beta:   ... or the monadic host.

Alpha:   The source of the monadic host, fine.  But, is not a Heavenly Man the source of the monadic host?  Are we the source of ourselves?  What is the source of cell in our body?

Beta:   Yes we are latent ... well, as monads we are latent in terms of consciousness.  We have always been latent as monads, our monadic nature.

Alpha:   Where did we come from?

Beta:   We were in the first solar system.

Alpha:   We were and of course beyond that we have always been here.  But, the point is where did we come from in terms of our next immediate point of emanation above.  From what were we breathed out?

Beta:   I think it depends on which group we identify with. 

Delta:   Well, the Hierarchies are just migrating through this limited sphere. … So they must be great, just like we as the fourth creative hierarchy are the source of human beings, while at the moment we are human beings, we are ultimately far higher that that.

Alpha:   Ah, right.  We could be become anything.  This is our present station, our dimension, our salvation.

Delta:   So by analogy to this the second one is in the same situation.

Alpha:   Well then what does that mean to you?

Delta:   That means that, although they are occupying the place of being the monads, they ultimately have a beingness that goes way beyond that – just as we are occupying the place as being human beings but we have a beingness and destiny that goes way beyond that.

Alpha:   Yeah.  But don’t they have their own lives?  Don’t they have their own spheres of activity?  In other words, are our monads their sphere of activity?  They are the prototypes, they are the source of the monadic  ... see, we are somehow terrible connected to our third aspect expression.  … Man as monad, egoic groups, kingdoms.  So what is the same analogy to these?  Are you saying that our monad host are the kingdoms of these beings? 

Beta:   Ahhh. Actually, this is probably another set of monads that are just higher  … just higher than us.  They are just another set of monads that are higher.  They couldn’t incarnate last time, they tried to incarnate this time, and the key next sentence down says ... “Even in this, they will find it impossible to do more than influence the incarnating Jivas” And Jivas is a term that Blavatsky uses for monad.  She uses atom for monad and the Jiva ... or spark.

Alpha:   Yeah, but Jiva has more to it than just monad because it has ...  It is the triad  ... it is monad plus hierarchy, isn’t it?

Beta:   Right ... I think so.

Alpha:   Or at least atma-buddhi, or something like that.

Beta:       But she uses it in a monadic sense.

Alpha:   OK, this is just another type of monad, not a Planetary Logos at all.  Well, you know in a way the Planetary Logos is the source of the monads.  We still don’t know what it means by ‘source’. 

Beta:   Yeah, somehow they can’t come in.  And if we know that monad cycle from scheme to scheme, our monads can be transferred from the Earth scheme to another scheme depending on the timing.  And we know that these monads can come in from above as well, even a solar cycle.

Alpha:   Prototypes, in other words, something the monads can become? … like the Great Bear is the prototype of the Seven Heavenly Man.  Do you recall that statement?  Each star in the Great Bear is associated with one of the Heavenly Men.  It is its prototype.  Does this mean that one day we can rise to the stature of life these beings?

Beta:   I have always thought that.

Gamma:   We are animated already by the life of this being.

Delta:   Yes.  We are that.

Beta:   We are certainly, in terms of group consciousness, or our group life.  But that means that we have to identify with our monads. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  But we are not that yet, because we are looking at Hierarchies as orders of lives whose spheres of manifestation are progressive, so the sphere of manifestation of this one is so progressive that we don’t even know exactly on what plane that it is manifesting. 

Beta:   They can impart to us the ability to realise the nature of group consciousness and to understand the quality of the Seven Heavenly Men, somehow through the antahkarana probably, the pranas from the Heavenly Men.  But this suggests this statement that telepathy takes place among the Heavenly Men on the second plane, the monadic plane …

Alpha:   OK.  Where are the monads of this group found?  This is interesting; you realise that we are given here a table in which the human monads are located apparently on the buddhic plane.  Or, are they just the fourth Creative Hierarchy.  I mean, this has to be sorted out. 

Beta:   Yeah.  That is very interesting. 

Alpha:   We are located right here on plane number four.

Beta:   Well, from the buddhic plane we know that the human hierarchy, our future goal is to become mediators among the kingdoms, between the higher and lower kingdoms.  We are also mediators planetarily as souls, so this is saying that we are mediators on a monadic plane.

Gamma:   May I suggest something here?  He is the prototype of the source of the monadic life.  He knows just the hierarchy?

Alpha:   The hierarchy is composed of our men who have, hierarchy is still the fourth hierarchy.  Our hierarchy is still the fourth hierarchy, regardless of how much they have unfolded.

Gamma:   What is this relationship between the hierarchy and the monad, when you have a hierarchy which is an amplified aggregate of monads?

Beta:   I see this as no different than the mystery of the solar angels, because somehow the mass of humanity is supposed to become solar pitris in a future cycle.  I thought I was already a solar pitris, maybe an angel, maybe a lord, and that was part of my constitution and in a way saying the same thing of the monads, that we are not the next bait, the solar pitris gave us our causal bodies on the petal substance level.  …

Alpha:   Let’s take a look at our Hierarchy of masters.  You can’t really equate them with these higher hierarchies.  They were just men a thousand or five hundred years ago.  They are still part of the fourth Creative Hierarchy, no matter what initiate status they have. That is what I said earlier, doesn’t each hierarchy have its own series of initiations?  You know that even the Christ at the seventh initiation is still a member of the fourth Creative Hierarchy. 

But I want to point out something.  We know our monads are located on the second plane, then why in the heck are they put on the fourth plane?  You know this must mean that the monads of the Divine Builders are  found on the cosmic astral plane.  The monads are not found on the monadic plane.  All of the hierarchies are monads.

Beta:   That is interesting.

Alpha:   You see what I am saying?  I am saying here that human monads we know are located on the second place.  … But they are put here on the buddhic plane for whatever reason.  The monads are not there, just the field of expression is there.  Therefore these beings were also monads, the second Hierarchy, are expressing on the monadic plane and hence, (like you said) animate our monads.  But their monads are placed on the cosmic astral plane, must be, and so forth.  In other words, what we are looking at here looks like fields of expression rather than the location of the monad. …

Gamma:   Is there a place for an argument between the first aspect of a monad , the second aspect , and the third aspect of a monad?  And … the buddhic aspect is a third aspect.  The monad aspect is a second aspect.  And the true monad is higher up?

Alpha:   But it says that our monads are presently focused on the monadic plane. 

Gamma:   ... because we are on the second solar system.

Alpha:   Yeah.  But that doesn’t mean that later we as a ray of the absolute will not be focused on another.

Beta:   Here is the key, this presupposes group consciousness in a sense that we are not looking at the monads as individuals.  We as human monads are located on the second plane, but we can only express as a group on the buddhic plane.  Our hierarchy is stuck on the Buddhic plane for considerable time.  It just moved up the buddhic plane in the Second World War.

Alpha:   Ah, I mean our fourth Creative Hierarchy was expressing through higher manas until the ashrams relocated on the buddhic plane.  So, for some time our field of expression is on the buddhic plane.  That means that these divine lives (whatever they are), which are the prototypes of our monads, are somehow energising us as monads by providing something to us on the monadic plane.  We are their field of expression … but, their true monadic home has to be still higher.

Gamma:   So when we can reach a monadic consciousness we will necessarily become aware of this first aspect.

Alpha:   OK.  But, what has to be  understood is, they are monads, and we are monads, in essence we are absolutely different and absolutely identical at the same time.  I don’t know if that makes sense, but the point is a monad is a monad.  There is no such thing as saying they are our monads or they are monads to us.  A monad is an atom, is the exact equivalent to a monad of this hierarchy or anything else.  A monad is an identity, a homogeneity ...

(end of side 13a)

Alpha:   See, here is the point.  A monad is a ray of the absolute expressing through a particular field of prakriti and manifesting a certain type of consciousness limited by the prakriti.  But the monad is the monad.  It is identical with every other monad, otherwise it wouldn’t be called ‘one’.  But we tend to say, ah, that thing that  happens on the second plane with that vehicle is the monad ...  but, it is not really.

Beta:   Yeah but these are evolving monads.

Alpha:   I want to say that a monad cannot evolve ... right?  … on the most abstract level, ok.  But a monad can travel through different phases of prakriti and experience different types of consciousness through all the ten dimensions of cosmos. 

And by the way I really want to ask at some point what a dimension is.  Remember on page 1084 it says the cosmos has ten dimensions:  “Within the wheel, forming that wheel, are all the lesser wheels from the first to the tenth dimension.”  Everything has ten.  It is the master’s number.  So I really want to know if there are ten cosmic planes.  … What is ten to the tenth?   Ten billion.  OK   Well, I want to go away from here not thinking that there are ten billion planes.

Gamma:   Is a plane equivalent to dimension?

Alpha:   One quick and unthought answer, I would say yes, a plane is equivalent to a dimension.

Gamma:   So how about a subplane then?   Sub-dimension?

Beta:   Well look at it, in a sense before [also 1084]:   “Ten million million kalpas pass, and twice ten million million Brahmic cycles and yet one hour of cosmic time is not completed.”

Alpha:   Yeah.  This is the paragraph I always use to give perspective to students.  …

Delta:   Ten levels in the triangle … the ladder of life.

Beta:   But there are only six stones on the bottom.  Why are there six. 

Alpha:   Well, there is six, but the question is, You could have done it with less than six, or more than six, it is up to you, right?

Beta:   Are they shakti’s.  That is only a thin correspondence; maybe it is implicit seven.

Gamma:   In this you usually mention here it is the proof that the big bang will initiate a big crush. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  The big bang, and the big crush.  And in terms of space who is the greatest of all entities? we are still in an expanding universe which means that the universal logos is not yet half way through its cycle.  Otherwise we would have a contracting universe wouldn’t we?

How did we get there?  We want to look at these Hierarchies.

Gamma:   Time and energy you know, we are not even at the beginning of our own evolution , it’s the same you know.

Alpha:   But it is quite possible for little eddies and whirlpools within the big thing.  They are not all doing the same thing.  There are some that are at the end of their evolution and some are at the beginning, the small ones, even through the big picture is still expanding?  By analogy it is correct.  It only happens to be correct because you could get another solar system somewhere that was just beginning and another solar system that was ending even though the big picture is expanding. 

Gamma:   Unless what you say is that as the space increases time contracts, so you an have everything going together analogically. 

Alpha:   OK ... you know, the danger in a discussion of this nature is that we might get into philosophy!

(Laughter)

Beta:   Didn’t Blavatsky say, or Bailey, that the philosophical key had already been presented and …

Alpha:   Bailey said that.  But the third formula is said to be the key to all philosophies.  Do you know the third formula?  You must.  It is in DINA II. … The key to all philosophies.  We have to point that out; I know you have seen it; the question is whether a person knows it is another matter.  When you see it  ....it’ll blow you mind.

Beta:   … I haven’t gone through the results in there.  I looked at and spent some time reading, but to me those are book I have just stepped into. 

Epsilon:   You need the booklet [Formulas, Hints, and Points]. It is gathered all together.

Gamma & Alpha:   Yeah, it is very useful; Epsilon is going to lure you. 

Alpha:   Here it is, the key to all philosophies: page 284 & 285 of DINA II.  It is so fantastic.  Just to give you an idea:

1.        “God IS.  The Lord for aye stands firm.  Being exists alone.  Naught else is.

2.        Time IS.  Being descends to manifest.  Creation is.  Time then and form agree.  Being and time do not agree. 

3.        Unity IS.  The One between comes forth and knows both time and God.  But time destroys that middle One and only Being IS.

4.        Space IS.  Time and space reverberate and veil the One who stands behind.  Pure Being IS—unknown and unafraid, untouched, for aye unchanged.

5.        God IS.  Time, space the middle One (with form and process) go, and yet for aye remain.  Pure reason then suffices.

6.        Being cries forth and says: ...(untranslatable).  Death crumbles all.  Existence disappears, yet all for aye remains—untouched, immutable the same.  God IS.”

That is the key to all philosophy.  Now interestingly enough there are six schools of Indian philosophy and six statements here, in case you wanted six.

Gamma:   So (inaudible) in the evolution along the big bang theory, it starts by one and finishes by total destruction, the big crush.

Alpha:   Yeah.  You are looking forward to that I’ll bet.

Epsilon:   Alpha, maybe it would be a good time to stop.

Gamma:   I think maybe now we should study the first Hierarchy.

Epsilon:   Its time to go for our lunch.

Gamma:   The basket of nourishment?

Alpha:   The basket case is seeking nourishment?

Epsilon:   There seems to be a consensus for the basket of nourishment.

Alpha:   These are formulas.  This is the initiatory manual so it is the ... there are six formulas for initiations, or rather between initiations, he doesn’t quite specify; he says both.  See, this is Timothy Spring’s favourite.  This is what he does.  Everybody has their own speciality you know. 

(tape paused)

Alpha:   We have a thought here.  Beta just said something the should go on note before we eat.  Would you repeat that Beta.

Beta:   Shaktis are not rays.  Rays are not energies.  Energies are not forces.  That is all I can say.

Alpha:   Good.  And now we’ll eat.

(tape paused)

Alpha:   So this is our final evening, and after three days here we are.  It is after supper on the third day.  Is the moon still in Aries?

Delta:   The moon is still in Aries.  

Alpha:   OK we are concluding tonight with an examination of Hierarchy Three and Hierarchy One, perhaps.  Just hearing some thoughts on them, and trying to fathom the meaning of the couple of references which discuss the relationship between the Creative Hierarchies and the rays, which I am sure Delta  you can find for us?  Yes.  Good.  OK.  And then we may take a very cursory look at what is on the board.  By the way, has everybody read the questions that I prepared?  I know it is a rather long list, but has everybody read that list?

Delta:   Yes, I read it.

Beta:   Almost all of it, yeah.

Epsilon:   Yes I did.

Alpha:   OK, I just wanted to make sure everybody knew what was on there.  So that when we begin to plan for the future we can be cognisant of these questions.

                You know, it is very curious to me with respect to the third Creative Hierarchy in the Secret Doctrine that Blavatsky has one sentence about it.  Simply one.  Does anybody know if that is in Volume III or Volume II, where will we find that, the Lesser Builders, the atmic hierarchy, the Fleur de Lis.  She has only one sentence about it; I want to see if that can be found.  I think we should look at that third Creative Hierarchy, which is as you were saying most mysterious. 

(tape paused)

Alpha:   Whereas Blavatsky says practically nothing in the main section on it.  DK says a great deal and lets just read it. Esoteric Astrology, page 40:  “The third Creative Hierarchy (or the eighth) ...” And this should tie in with all of your eights, the kali chakra, etc.  This “... is a peculiarly interesting one.  They are called ‘the Triads’ for They hold in themselves the potencies of triple evolution, mental, psychical, and spiritual.”

By the way, as Beta and I were leaving the door today it came to mind that just as the second Creative Hierarchy somehow vitalises the monads, it is quite possible that the third Creative Hierarchy, called the Triads, vitalises our spiritual triads.  It is a thought.  OK.

“These Triads of Life are inherently the three Persons of the Trinity and the flower of the earlier system from a certain angle.”

By the way, the word flower is important:

“From another angle, when studied as the ‘flower of the earlier Eight,’  They are the eightfold points awaiting opportunity to flame forth.  They are the devas who are ready for service, which is to give to another Hierarchy certain qualities which are lacking.  This Hierarchy is regarded ...”

Do You have something on that?  “This Hierarchy is regarded as the great donors of immortality ...” (Page 238, Secret Doctrine. 

(tape paused)

Alpha:   Page 238 in Volume I.  And where it would be found, oh, my God look at this, will you.  This would be stanza seven, number one.  … Page 218 (in the normal two volume series, facsimile series).  Thank you Gamma for locating that, we managed to do it.  So page 218, the Creative Hierarchies.  And all I have to do is just read what Blavatsky says:  “The Third order corresponds to the Atma-Buddhi-Manus:  Spirit, Soul and Intellect, and is called the ‘Triads’.”  End. 

I am going to continue to read here, continuing page 41 of Esoteric Astrology:

“This Hierarchy is regarded as the great donors of immortality whilst Themselves "standing aloof from incarnation." Lords of Sacrifice and Love are They, but They cannot pass out of the logoic etheric body into the dense physical vehicle.  This third Hierarchy wields the third aspect of electric force of the first type of cosmic energy.”

Does that correspond with what is on 1224 [TCF]?

Beta:   They say it is the third of the first shakti or type of force.

Alpha:   Well that says the same thing, the first type of cosmic energy; a shakti apparently is a cosmic energy.

 “They stand for a recurrent cycle of that first type symbolised by the number 8.”

What does that mean?

“The formulae for these electrical energies are too complicated to be given here, but the student should bear in mind that these Hierarchies express:

1.             Septenary cosmic energy.”

Gamma:   Ah he talks about the Hierarchies, not that particular one

Alpha:   No, ‘these’ hierarchies, right …  These hierarchies express:

1.             Septenary cosmic energy.

2.             Cosmic prana.

3.             Solar energy or electric fire, solar fire and fire by friction.

By the way there is real interesting hint about what is electric fire for us, is solar fire in a higher sense. 

Beta:   And let me make a note here for people on number 2.  Cosmic prana.  She defines it on page 38 [Esoteric Astrology] …  just three pages back.  Cosmic prana basically equals seven constellational forces: 

“Each of the seven Hierarchies of Beings, found within the Twelve, Who are the Builders or the Attractive Agents are (in their degree) intermediaries; all embody one of the types of force emanating from the seven constellations.”

They are the builders among the Creative Hierarchies.  “... Who are the Builders or the Attractive Agents are (in their degree) ....”

Delta:   Where is that, and how does that bear on prana?

Beta:   Because he is repeating again the septenary ... 

Epsilon:   Each of the group is septenary in nature.

Beta:   Yeah.  Because you are moving from septenary cosmic energy which is cosmic prana which is force to solar energy or electric fire, solar fire, which is septenary cosmic substance.  Our three fires down here.  So you are moving from energy to force to substance.  So cosmic prana would correspond to the seven constellational force which means the seven constellations. 

Gamma:   There is another reference in the Secret Doctrine about the Hierarchy Three, and he said there was nothing about Hierarchy Three.  But there is more information on other Hierarchies ...

Alpha:   ... loads in the Secret Doctrine on the other hierarchies.  Only one sentence on Hierarchy Three. 

“Each Hierarchy manifests a triple energy or an aspect of each of the above, and that necessitates a ninefold differentiation, for the two first are triple, as is the third.  It is the rejection of the Triadal lives by units in the fourth Hierarchy, that of the human Monads, which precipitates a man eventually into the eighth sphere.  He refuses to become a Christ, a Saviour and remains self-centred.

                We have dealt with the first three Hierarchies which are regarded as ever ‘seeing the Face of the Ruler of the Deep’, or as being so pure and holy that Their forces are in realized contact with Their emanating source.”

... presumably a Planetary Logos.  

Beta:   This may be our triads with their new triads.

Alpha:   Well, they are talking about the first three as being in touch with their emanating source.

Beta:   And this is the challenge before the fourth Hierarchy.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Now this is a very provocative statement.  All this stuff about cosmic electricity and, ah, I don’t have the energy right now to make all the differentiations. … I mean it is all a tremendous study.

Beta:   Do we have a Theosophical Glossary? … I want to look up ring-pass-not.

Delta:   Can I just throw out that basically these nine are the nine states that it has to go through to go through a full initiation.  And then it switches to a higher Hierarchy. … Each of them has nine initiations ...

Alpha:   It might be that.  It might be structural too.

Beta:   That what I forgot, Blavatsky supposedly didn’t use ring-pass-not.

Alpha:   “The formulae for these electrical energies are too complicated ...” etc. etc.  “... but the student should bear in mind that these Hierarchies express: 1.  Septenary cosmic energy.”  Where is septenary cosmic energy from?  Is septenary cosmic energy from the constellations?

Beta:   Yeah.  That is what I think.

Epsilon:   He speaks at page 38 a bit of it, fourth paragraph:  “Each of these groups of beings is likewise septenary in nature, and the forty-nine fires of Brahma are the lowest manifestation of their fiery nature.”

Alpha:   OK About which group is been talking about?   ... every Hierarchy?

Delta:   Yes.

Epsilon:  

“Each of the seven Hierarchies of Beings, found within the Twelve, Who are the Builders or the Attractive Agents are (in their degree) intermediaries; all embody one of the types of force emanating from the seven constellations.  Their intermediary work, therefore, is dual:”

Alpha:   OK, hold on.  Are the seven constellations part of our Zodiacal Constellations or are they part of the seven of the ten?  Are these embodying energies from the OAWNMBS or are they just zodiacal constellations? Because there are after all seven zodiacal constellations listed in connection with that.  But, using a funny word like ‘the’ seven constellations, it sounds like, instead of seven constellations, because there are seven constellations that are connected with the centres in the great being.

Delta:   Well maybe this would be the rays so therefore they would be the seven major constellations outside the zodiac, if it is the rays. … If you consider them as the source of the rays.

Alpha:   Yeah.  “Mediators between spirit and matter” ... OK, each Hierarchy, to come back to what Delta was saying, these septenary cosmic energies might be coming from seven constellations, is that possible?

Epsilon & Beta:   Yeah.  That is what I was saying on 38.

Alpha:   I thought you were connecting that with cosmic prana, because cosmic prana is different.

Beta:   It is, but septenary cosmic energy I think that is more ray.  Ah, there is an earlier cite in this volume that deals with it, page 26 might clear it up.  Page … 26, 27, 28  or so:  “Proposition One—Every ray life is an expression of a solar life ...”  Now we are looking for septenary cosmic energy.  We have energy and we have cosmic prana and then we have solar energy.  So, “Proposition Two—Each one of the ray lives is the recipient and the custodian of energies coming from The seven solar systems and The twelve constellations.”

These are the major constellations.

Alpha:   Yeah.  But the seven solar systems, this could be septenary cosmic energy, this could relate to seven constellations of seven solar systems, couldn’t it? … Because after all, remember these Hierarchies are just planetary as we have been saying.  So, a solar system is already a rather large source for them isn’t it? 

                … Our solar system also works through one particular planet, it works through one particular planet.  Each solar system of the seven works through one particular planet in our solar system  including our own solar system.  Like there is a special planet which is most connected with our solar system and I’ll bet it is Jupiter. 

                Our subject is the seven rays and their relationship to the zodiacal constellations or the interaction of the seven great lives which inform our solar system with the twelve constellations which compose our zodiac.  See, that is just the ray lives, that is all.

                OK but, back to 41.  Each Hierarchy manifests a triple energy.  Now earlier it said that it manifested seven fold energy, right?  ... page 38:  “Each of these groups of beings is likewise septenary in nature …”  But, coming back to page 41.  “Each Hierarchy manifests a triple energy or an aspect of each of the above.”  Now what does that mean?  … In other words, the Hierarchy represents a triple energy because it is one from each one of these, but the aspects could be sevenfold, couldn’t they?  One for each Hierarchy.

Gamma:   I think when he says ‘manifests’ he uses something greater in the system of three and the other one he uses manifest in the system of seven.

Alpha:   Well I don’t think we can solve this.  The point is, if you choose one from each of these: “Each Hierarchy manifests a triple energy or an aspect of each of the above, and that necessitates a ninefold differentiation, for the two first are triple, as is the third.”

Beta:  It automatically becomes three fires.

Alpha:   … there are three aspects to cosmic septenary energy; septenary cosmic energy is already septenary.

Delta:   The triples refer to the twenty-one, the whole system of the seven triples [making] twenty-one. And there is a list somewhere where it has the three aspects of each ray.

Beta:   Oh yeah.  The nine comes before the seven.  The nine comes because it is the three at the top, ah three three’s at the top of each set of seven.  The last one , the three fires are three all by itself.  But those are three because they are already top.  Now you think this is related  …

Delta:   I think it is analogous to 1222 and 1223 in Cosmic Fire. The ray methods of activity in there with three for each ray, making twenty-one. 

Beta:   Yeah.  How does he explain 3 x 7; how does he explain, or sub-divide, the principle for the division of 3?  He says studying the 21 vibrations with the basic vibrations, 22.  [Continues with quoting 1221 Cosmic Fire]: “We might, therefore, take the seven Rays and give the names for the three ways in which the groups on any particular ray interact with ...”  See, we are just dealing with the first three rays.

Alpha:   It is the same as you said before.  Every ray is triple.  There is the spirit aspect, the psychic aspect, and the objective aspect.  Every one of these seven is a triple.

Beta:   But these aren’t all rays, only one of these are rays.

Alpha:   What about how there is seven cosmic pranas.

Beta:   Ummm.   I guess I find this difficult.  I need to sit down and think about it again.  This is the sort of question; I have to read and invoke ten times and then it is there.

Alpha:   Yeah.  It is difficult.  This is more than I can handle right now.  But I do think that we could address ourselves to this next question which is germane for human evolution.  OK?  Cosmic Fire 1199:

“It is the rejection of the Triadal Lives by units in the fourth Hierarchy, that of the human Monads, which precipitates a man eventually into the eighth sphere. He refuses to become a Christ, a Saviour and remains self-centred.”

This is a tremendous key to the meaning of the eighth Hierarchy. 

Beta:   And what it is depicting here we know is the division between the mental unit and the causal body.

Alpha:   ... Or, the mental unit and the Triad. … Yes.  OK.  You must assume that the causal body is just a shroud of the soul like it is often said.  And let’s assume that the causal body content is partially absorbed in the mental unit the way it is for the antahkarana projection, and partially absorbed in the Triad, and eventually the content of the causal body is somehow essentialised, yes.  And it is what’s really behind the causal body.  The Triad is within the causal body; the Triad is the real thing and the causal body is just the shroud of the Triad.  

So, basically we are told here that if we somehow reject our own spiritual triad we are rejecting the Christ aspect within ourselves and we precipitate ourselves into the eighth sphere. 

Beta:   We are also rejecting the source of our life within the planetary constitution, and solar constitution. … If you reject the source of your own life then, you fall into madness, into the eighth sphere  … where the black magicians who refuse to mend their ways, finally by the violence of their activities, separate their lower principles from the higher.  It has been expressed in different ways.

Alpha:   So.  And, again, this is funny kind of judgement day scenario here in terms of rejecting the triad.  But, elsewhere, what initiation do you have the choice of rejecting a triad or not? … I would say third, yes, because he says a black magician could become an initiate of the first two degrees. … Obviously he has not had to make the choice about the triad. … Yeah. 

So, basically what this means is that the third degree, hence the third Creative Hierarchy, there is a choice about the triads.  There is also some sort of choice about the solar lives.  I guess what I am driving at is what is the relationship between the solar angels and the triads? 

Beta:   This suggests to me the Manasadevas ... [deleted discussion on variation of names.]

Alpha:   OK well, it is the lowest aspect.  In other words the third aspect of the solar pitris. 

Delta:   And what are the fourth Creative Hierarchy, just below the Triads. … So we have precipitated ourselves out of that.  So we are the solar ...

Alpha:   Not necessarily.  You see you can’t say you have precipitated yourself out of the hierarchy above. …

My enquiry is simply this.  At the third initiation a man comes into a fused state with the solar angel ... (I am not being technical about the word solar angel.)  OK, at the third initiation he also has the opportunity to differentiate himself from black magician, which means that he accepts the triadal lives.  Then my question was simply this, is there any difference between the solar angels and the triadal lives?  

Delta:   The solar angels are in contact with manifestation.  The solar lives only implicitly have it through the solar angels.

Alpha:   Well this is interesting, you have a point here.  He says that these triadal lives can go no lower than, what … the logoic etheric body.

Beta:   How do you understand the ring-pass-not.  The ring-pass-not is between the living principles and the dense body, right?

Alpha:   Yeah.  I understand the ring-pass-not as the many planes, as the life of the atomic plane between the atomic plane of the manasic plane and the lowest of the buddhic subplanes.  

Beta:   You don’t think that it includes the ethers of the mental plane?

Alpha:   But show me where the reference where it said he can go no lower than ...

Beta:   ... top of 41:  “They cannot pass out of the logoic etheric body into the dense physical vehicle.”

Alpha:   Now that is very simple, and we showed it before; that is the buddhic plane, the logoic etheric body and everything below that.  However, the planetary logoic etheric body could include the higher subplanes of the mental plane.

Beta:   Because it is the division between arupa and rupa.  Formless and formed.  And that is where the causal body is anchored.

Alpha:   Right.  And that is the need for the bridge to go between planetary and solar ...  They are the bridge, the solar angels; they allow man, instead of becoming planetary, to become solar.  That is the whole thing.  Those three higher subplanes are planetary ethers but they are solar dense, so if you can transit the solar dense you can get into solar life, out of planetary life, and that is what the solar angels allow us to do. 

So you have a point because there are the solar angels, (or whatever you want to call them, I don’t know all the differentiations) and they can give their substance upon the higher mental plane and they can pass into the logoic dense body, apparently, the higher three subplanes.  But these lives cannot.  Is that correct?

Beta:   Right.  Actually, but I have been assuming the solar lords are very closely related to the Manasadevas, which are the highest form of Agnishvattas, they have a direct sort of interface relationship with the kumaras who would be … without transition somehow.   I have to sort that out.

Alpha:   OK.  But, Agnishvattas apparently, even Manasadevas are connected with the triads.

Delta:   Well the triads are a higher correspondence of atma-buddhi-manas.

Beta:   ... yeah solar ...

Alpha:   Yeah.   There is a problem because there is no manas possible.  Manas is in the logoic dense body. …  Maybe they cannot pass lower.  Maybe their spirit influence can ...

Beta:   I seem to think the Vishnu aspect comes down to the third subplane of the mental. 

Alpha:   We just looked at it in terms of vibration, light, sound and colour and we saw that the solar logos went no lower than the buddhic plane.  … It started in terms of vibration at the logoic. … And its lowest, which is color, which is the number four (which is manifestation) is no lower than our Buddhic plane.

Delta:   But they are on the planetary mental body; the triads form part of the planetary mental body so therefore they have a manasic element.

Alpha:   The triads do but not The Triads.  Our spiritual triads definitely have a manasic part to them.  But these lives which are the power of the triads apparently cannot descend below the logoic etheric plane. 

Beta:   We know cosmic buddhi is in all the permanent atoms.

Gamma:   We have again this difference between The Triad, which is a vehicle, and the lives which emanate …

Alpha:   Yes that is right, the prototypes of the monads are not the monads but their field of expression is the monad.  So we are going back into the second Hierarchy as it relates to our fourth.  Now these Triads are somehow the life of our spiritual triads and yet while they animate them ...

Beta:   Oh god.  Hierarchies three, four and five basically correspond to the three: Manasadevas, Agnish­vattas and the Manasaputras.  The human personality would be the result of the work of the Manasaputras coming from a previous cycle, and they provide a form for them to evolve.  The Agnishvattas provide the same for the Human Hierarchy.  The Triads provide the same for the Human Hierarchy, but from the triadic level. Ah.

Delta:   What about the idea that once you are at the very bottom of the buddhic plane you are intentionally touching the manasic plane, just as visa versa if you at the very upmost level of the manasic you are touching the buddhic. 

Alpha:   Well we have run into an interesting thing today about how the jewel was at the juncture of manas and buddhi.  So you may be touching it all right.

Beta:   Do we have a human correspondence, planetary correspondence and a solar correspondence? … Maybe I should refer to them like ... the solar logos somehow during manifestation can send solar pitris down into the lower planes into the dense physical, and they do it through the planetary constitution to a certain extent when the ego flash forth as a result of ... the juncture of the planetary etheric and dense. They must be solar logoic. 

Alpha:   Well the point is, What are the triadal lives?  I used to think that they were possibly solar angels.  However, if the solar angel can penetrate the manasic plane and these lives cannot then apparently they cannot be solar angels.

Beta:   Here.  Cosmic Fire: middle of 616:        “They are that which produces concretion and that which gives form to the abstract.” The Ah-hi.  The building devas who are the Ah-hi or Universal Mind.

“The terms rupa and arupa devas are relative, for the formless levels and the formless lives are only so from the standpoint of man in the three worlds; the formless lives are those which are functioning in and through the etheric body of the Logos, formed of the matter of the four higher planes of the system. From this point of view the mental plane provides an interesting consideration: its three higher subplanes are positive, and centralise the positive force of the plane. This focussing of the positive affects the negative substance of the four lower planes and brings about likewise:”

(end of tape)

Tape Fourteen Begins

Beta (continuing):  

a.      The formation of force centres on the causal levels, those force centres being egoic groups in their various divisions.

b.      The concretion of substance, or the building of the dense physical body of the Logos.

On the physical plane of the solar system an analogous process can be seen taking place as regards the physical body of man, or his concrete manifestation. In his case, the fourth subplane is the focal point of positive force. On that plane are located the etheric centres of man, which have, in the evolutionary process and in the work of force direction, a relationship to his physical body similar to the relationship which groups of Egos on the mental plane have to the dense physical body of the Logos. This is a profound occult hint”

In the words ‘prana and the etheric body’ (or life force and form) we have the key to the mystery of the solar and lunar pitris, and a hint as to the place of the physical body in the scheme of things.

                The solar Pitris and devas find their force expression most adequately through man, with all that is included in that term. They are the source of his self-consciousness, and it is their action upon the negative aspect which produces the human Ego (on a large scale, viewing them in their totality as cosmic force); it is their action upon the negative or mother aspect which, on cosmic levels, produces that Self-conscious Unity, a solar Logos, functioning through His physical vehicle.”

Alpha:   The higher form of solar pitris.   [... continuing the above quote]: 

“From the Christian standpoint, the greater Builders are the Holy Spirit, or force overshadowing and fecundating matter, whilst the negative or lesser Builders correspond to the Virgin Mary.”

Goodness!  So the Virgin Mary is like the third Creative Hierarchy and the greater builders, the Holy Spirit, is the second Creative Hierarchy.  Well.  Good Lord. 

Delta:   At some point, maybe we could close this and go on to rays and hierarchies. Is that is agreeable?

Alpha:   Yeah.  The question that remains in my mind is what order of lives are these triads that a rejection of them should cause the selfishness and the precipitation of the man into lower matter?  From another point of view, maybe the triads stimulate that kind of life which is sort of the higher anchor for the man.  He never makes it across the bridge if he rejects the triad; he never builds the antahkarana, he never returns to his source 

Delta:   It is part of the upper three and we are the part of the lower four. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  So, it looks to me like these triads have their monads on a higher plane altogether, and they are the force which stimulates our spiritual triad.  That the second group of builders, the greater builders, stimulate the manifestation of our monad upon the second plane.  Basically, they sustain our higher nature even though they, as monads, are not that higher nature.  We are simply in our highest aspects an expression of their fourth.  I don’t think for a minute though that they can get through the etheric barrier.  And I think that is what is unique about the solar angels, somehow, even though they are high beings they make the sacrifice of going into the logoic dense body, and that they are somehow bridges. 

And I would like to know very much what is the relationship ... ahh …  the relationship between the fifth Creative Hierarchy and the third Creative Hierarchy is pretty much the relationship between the solar angels and the triads.  I would like to know the relationship between the solar angels (whether they are pitris or whatever) and the triads.  

Beta:   Yeah.  There are two sections on the ninefold vibration.  And one is involved in ninefold vibration coming down to create the causal bodies.  And then the other is the ninefold response that creates the substance of the causal bodies and then I think this relates to the ninefold energies … that they were speaking of there.

Alpha:   Are you saying that the triads are responsible for inducing response within the higher mental plane and that the solar devas are in some way responsible for ... coordinating that?  Providing substance of their own vehicles?

Beta:   Right, out of their own vehicles.  And, they provide the tiers on one level, the petals on another, and the permanent atoms on the bottom.  By the way, (I just found a quote), the permanent atoms are not the lunar pitris, they are intermediaries between the solar and lunar pitris on each plane, because they are the seventh principle on each plane.  So, they could be extracted up to the manasic permanent atoms, perhaps.

Delta:   Can I throw something out with regard to the fifth ray and third ray which I think is analogous.  I don’t quite understand, but I think it bears directly on this conversation. Pages 704 through 705 Cosmic Fire.  You were saying, what is the relationship between the fifth Creative and the third.  So it starts from “The fifth principle of manas is embodied in the five Kumaras ...”  on 704, then:

“As the student of occultism knows, the Lord of the fifth Ray holds that place in the Septenary enumeration, but under the fivefold classification, he holds the third or middle place.  “

Then, in other words, we start with the third ray and go down.  Then it goes on to 705:

“This should be pondered on, and His close connection therefore, as a transmitter of force within the Moon chain, the third chain, in connection with the third kingdom, the animal, and with the third round, must be borne in mind. One symbol that may be found in the archaic records in lieu of His Name or description is an inverted five-pointed star, with the luminous Triangle at the centre. It will be noted that the points involved in this symbol number eight.”

Alpha:   Yeah.  You are absolutely right. This is germane.

Delta:   ... and we had that eight back on page 40; that is the eighth sphere.

“... a picture of that peculiar state of consciousness brought about when the mind is seen to be the slayer of the Real. The secret of planetary avitchi 35 is hidden here ... just as the third major scheme can be viewed as systemic avitchi, and the moon at one time held an analogous position in connection with our scheme. This must be interpreted in terms of consciousness, and not of locality.”

Alpha:   The third major scheme is Saturn.  … which you know the spot that appeared on Saturn.  There is probably an exoteric Saturn here.

Beta:   So, actually these culprits, as DK said explicitly somewhere, their evolution is suspended for a Mahamanvantara, in avitchi. 

[deleted some pondering on what level of mahamanvantara.]

Alpha:   Now I just want to say one thing that strikes me about its psychological development.  The relationship between the third Hierarchy and the fifth is a relationship between the causal body and the triad at the time of building the antahkarana. 

It is very interesting how occultism among disciples is divided between those who are attempting to contact the soul and be informed by the love energy of the soul, and soul-infused, and those who are attempting to bypass the soul while somehow absorbing its quality and enter the triad. 

It seems to me that right there in that very germane type of occult approach we are dealing with two Hierarchies, namely the fifth, and the third.  And that as we become soul infused we are dealing with the fifth.  As we attempt to bypass the soul while still staying in relationship to it we are relating to the third Hierarchy, or at least its influence within our own triad. …  One is a matter of will and the other is a matter of love.

Delta:   One aside, this symbol of the five pointed star with the triangle in the centre, mentioned on page 705 Cosmic Fire, (you might want to write this in your book), that symbol is repeated in page 320 of Esoteric Astrology, with regard to the watery triangle:  “One of the symbols of an initiate of a certain degree is that of the five-pointed star with a triangle in the centre.”

Alpha:   Now, that’s important.  I think that what you have there is the triad and, gosh you have the relationship of the two hierarchies.  If you have the triangle and the five pointed star you have the relationship between the third and the fifth hierarchy.  Which is interesting, it sums to eight, as well. 

Beta:   The eight of the Christ and the eight of avitchi. 

Delta:   Wait a second.  The third Hierarchy has under comments (even though it is the atmic plane) it says  water.  And this symbols of the five, [as we were] just talking about the water signs in astrology.  Again there is some link there I think. 

Alpha:   I was just trying to make it as practical as possible in the sense that we as meditators may be dealing with these Hierarchies.  When we say to ourselves ...

Delta:   Yeah.  We are the divine connection.

Alpha:   Yeah.  Exactly, we are the divine connection and it is the difference between love and will.  To connect with the third Hierarchy, to connect with atma which is spiritual will, to connect with the fifth Hierarchy, these are the burning sons of love, ‘hearts of fiery love’, and right there is the difference, a juncture in modern day occultism that deals with these two hierarchies right now.

Beta:   And we are like electricity ... One is the anode and one is the cathode. 

Delta:   Lets say the third is the anode and the fifth is the cathode.  And we are the fourth which is the electricity which is flowing between the two.

Beta:   And looking at three, four, five Creative Hierarchies, the fifth Hierarchy is a five pointed star and is associated with animal nature ... the work of perhaps Venus or someone else in the previous cycle to get the human animal nature co-ordinated.  But in the fourth Creative Hierarchy, what is the five pointed symbol, best expressed by the five planes of the monad?  

Alpha:   Do we have to have a five pointed star?

Beta:   Just curious; I think that that is their higher reflection.  You would have both five pointed stars.

Alpha:   Let me ask you something.  What if you divide this hierarchy into the upright pentagram and the inverted pentagram?  Cause this is a dual hierarchy. … The fifth is a dual Hierarchy.  What if you divide the top part of it into the upright and the bottom into the inverted pentagram?  And one is personality, and the other is the substance of the solar life. 

And right there is the drama as to which way a man will go.  And it tends the ill fated number thirteen, etc.  (Page 45, wields the dual aspects of manas, one in the three worlds and one which makes itself felt in higher spheres.)  You see, it is important because that would explain the two types of pentagrams, one type diving the life downward into matter, the other type raising it up, you see. 

Beta:   Necessarily at an early stage driving it down into matter, for the purpose of driving it up later.

Alpha:   And on page 41 about the number 13. This hierarchy: 

“… is a dual one, and it is this which has led to some confusion and is the occult significance behind the ill-omened number thirteen.  They are the ‘Seekers of satisfaction’ and the cause of the second fall into generation, the fact behind the taking of a lower nature by the Ego.”

If you add the two pentagrams together you get the number of the hierarchy which is ten. 

Delta:   Ah again there is some association, page 426 in Esoteric Astrology.  Number 2:  “Five signs related to the unfoldment, in time and space, of the Human Hierarchy.” So first of all we have five signs: three of the five signs are the water signs.  And so we have the triangle within the five that way, because three of them are water signs and there are five signs, and the two remaining signs are Leo, the fifth sign, and Capricorn, the tenth sign.

Alpha:   Well that is interesting.  And so Capricorn is not only ten, it is five, two five’s.  It is the ruler of the fifth Hierarchy.  Yeah so there is a hint there. 

            OK I’ll tell you what, before we get too embroiled, see if we can straighten out this business of the ray and the hierarchy.

Delta:   OK, I put some pages on as reference on the blackboard.  These are in Cosmic Fire, pages 607 & 609.  (I am just trying to start at square one here.)  Simply put, it says that the rays are the second aspect, there are two tabulations. Page 607 says “The seven Rays manifesting through the seven planetary schemes”, and on 609 it has it under the second aspect …

            I am just correlating this.  First of all the major thrust was second ray so the seven rays would be the second aspect (at least in this part of the book, now some of the other references, as you say, Alpha, contradict each other.)

Alpha:   I want to point out a symbolism, that a ray is necessarily second aspect for the very reason that it is an emanation of a subject which reaches and object and hence binds them.  So ray automatically means second aspect, the relation between, right?  A ray comes from some place, falls on something else thus connecting two. 

Delta:   But I was just saying, well … it wouldn’t be so self evident to everyone that it is second aspect. 

(There is also a very interesting thing to go into another time, the combination of the seven into the twelve Creative Hierarchies.  But we will skip over that now.)  At the very bottom of 703 to the top of 704:

“Let us bear carefully in mind, that the Rays are the positive aspect in manifestation and pass down into negative matter, deva or hierarchical substance, thus causing certain evidences of activity. The Hierarchies are the negative aspect as far as the Rays are concerned and are responsive to Ray impulse. But within each Ray and each Hierarchy in this system a dual force again will be found. The Sons of God are bisexual. The deva substance is also dual ...”

So here it is saying that the rays are positive, the Hierarchies are negative, but they each have a positive and negative polarity.  Then the other references are 1195 (very top of the page):

“The "Rays" are but the primordial forms of certain Lives who "carry in their Hearts" all the Seeds of Form. The Hierarchies are the manifold groups of lives, at all stages of unfoldment and growth who will use the forms. The Rays are vehicles and are, therefore, negative receivers. The Hierarchies are the users of the vehicles ...”

(a few chuckles)

But that would make sense cause as each Hierarchy goes through the nine initiations then it would go on to another ray.

Alpha:   It would go on to another ray?

Delta:   Yeah.  It would become another Hierarchy.  It would become the next Hierarchy once it goes through all the nine initiations.  … right, going through the nine initiations and then becoming another Hierarchy, this is backed up on 1208.  Anyway back to 1209. 

“The distinction between a Ray which is the expression of logoic energy and a positive emanation, and a hierarchy which is a negative emanation of the Logos, upon which His positive energy impresses itself, driving that hierarchy on to self expression and forcing the ‘marriage of the poles’."

Anyway ... those are a few references.

Alpha:   And in each one apparent contradiction is arising. 

Delta:   Not completely.  You might want to look at 1208 for just a moment.  It says ...

“This can also be viewed in terms of energy. The negative lives of a hierarchy follow the following sequence:

1.             Negative energy.

2.             Equilibrised energy.

3.             Positive energy.

The positive lives of one hierarchy become the negative lives of another when they pass into it ...”

That would be after they’ve gone through the nine initiations.

“... and this it is which leads to the general confusion of ideas under which the average student labours. If he is to comprehend the matter with accuracy, he must study each hierarchy in a threefold manner, and view it also in its transitional state, as the negative blends and merges into the positive, and the positive becomes the negative pole of a higher vibratory stage. There are, therefore, nine states of consciousness ...”

... which I am interpreting as the nine initiations.  There are, therefore, nine stages related to the second aspect.

“There are, therefore, nine states of consciousness through which each hierarchy has to pass, and some idea of the significance of this and their relativity can be gained by a consideration of the nine Initiations of the fourth Creative Hierarchy.”

... and this would also show how one verges into the other. 

Alpha:   This is a very important section.  It rather reminds me as well, the three decanates with nine …  

Delta:   ... tests.

Beta:   This is incredible.

Alpha:   Yeah.  This is a magnificent section.  So it is a relativistic ...

Delta:   So, each Hierarchy is in the same situation as we are; they are all going through nine initiations and …  yeah, the first and the ninth these are extreme, you are touching the previous over the next situation or stage of life as they overlap.

Beta:   Yeah.  In the one case, 1209, you have “The distinction between the a Ray which is the expression of logoic energy and a  positive  emanation...”  So from the point of the logos the ray is a positive emanation for the negative hierarchies.  But from the point of view of the Hierarchies, the units of the hierarchies are the hosts of them, on 1195, they’re working through the rays as vehicles.  

Delta:   Yeah.  I think that captures it.

Beta:   Which is interesting ... too. 

Delta:   So we seem to have some closure on this. 

Alpha:   I’m not sure I fully understand.  … The Hierarchy can be driven by a ray, or a Hierarchy can work through a ray?  Do we have a human correspondence here?  We’re a Hierarchy.  We are working through a ray and we are also driven by a ray.  Can a ray be our vehicle in some way?

Beta:   Yeah, exactly.  Isn’t that interesting.

Epsilon:   Yeah.  We may wield the energy of the ray.

Alpha:   We wield the energy of a ray, and we are wielded upon a ray.

Epsilon:   We are ....we are … fashioned by rays.

Gamma:   You know it is just that this kind of meditation we should not meditate with the centre but work through the centres.

Alpha:   Un-haa.  And there is also the ray which passes through us and the ray which emanates from us.

Epsilon:   Um-hmm.

Delta:   What about this as an analogy: Let’s say the planetary being is using us for its evolution.  We are part of its ray.  But, we (as the fourth Creative Hierarchy) get to use that ray the way we see fit.  We can advance and be intelligent, we can thump on the wall, we can do crazy things.

Alpha:   Would it be the same ray necessarily?  In other words is the same ray that drives us the ray we wield?

Beta:   Yes.  

Epsilon:  I would say no, because, for example, the sun is second ray, and it goes though certain planets and they don’t transmit second ray.

Alpha:   That is a good point.  The planets are driven by second ray, all of them, but they wield first ray, or sixth ray, or seventh ray ... within the context of the larger ray by which they are driven they wield the lesser ray.  It is just the endless chain of positive-negative-positive-negative.

Beta:   And (inaudible) ... this is electricity, right?

Alpha:   Yes.  The electron of today is the nucleus of tomorrow ...

Beta:   This is also energy and force too. 

Alpha:   That is right.  Energy-force-energy-force ... positive-negative-positive-negative.

Gamma:   I think this problem we have between the life which informs, the triads, for example, is love is a Hierarchy.  We will find it all the time, as it was those hierarchies which with the triads are in groups which are informed by something else ...which are ...  So, is it really worthwhile to continue forever like that, instead of trying to pin down  OK this life here, instead of going to find the origin of the life of this particular Hierarchy.

Alpha:   Well, we have to, within a reasonable range, find some origins, but it is not profitable except speculatively to take it on for ever.  Then we need to define the functions of the ones that are most proximate and immediate to us. 

Beta:   It is the knowledge that has to be used ... after this is a wisdom.

Alpha:   Yeah.  I mean it is nice to know but if it can’t be used then you can’t concentrate on it forever otherwise that is an invasion.

Delta:   Is there any interest in discussing the footnote on 1195 for the twelve Creative Hierarchies, and how they are created out of the seven?  … OK, the footnote.  I think this is very profound statement.

The Twelve Creative Hierarchies. Students are often puzzled in trying to account for the "twelves" in the cosmos. A correspondent sends the following suggestion: In a Study in Consciousness, the three, by an arrangement of internal groupings, show seven groups; these may be represented as ABC, ACB, BCA BAC, CAB, CBA, and a seventh, a synthesis in which the three are equal.

Beta:   My gosh!

Delta:   In other words, where they are all identical in effect, they are not...

Beta:   In the sequence, sequence wise, right?

Delta:   Yes.

A second six would be represented by (AB) C, C (AB), A (BC), (BC) A, (CA) B, B (AC), the two bracketed being equal and the third stronger or weaker. The two groups of six, and the group in which the three are equal, would make thirteen. "This thirteen may be arranged as a circle of twelve, with one in the centre. The central one will be synthetic, and will be that class in which all three are equal. The physical correspondence of this will be the twelve signs of the Zodiac with the Sun at the centre, synthesising all of them. The spiritual correspondence will be the twelve Creative Orders with the Logos at the centre, synthesising all." The arrangement is quite legitimate.–The Theosophist, Vol. XXIX, p. 100.

Alpha:   That is really interesting.  Which logos?  Capital ‘L’ Logos?  Yes.  Well, don’t forget that the first Creative Hierarchy (of seven manifested) is breathed out from the central spiritual sun or the heart of the sun.  It is not exactly planetary in origin, however much it may be planetary in function.  It may have been breathed out by the sun for all planets and we may just be talking about our own. …

            Well, actually, I think the important thing here is to have it drawn to our attention so now we can play with it.  We know where it is and we can even compare it with signs in the zodiac and ... if it is true, it tells us something about the structure of units within the twelve.  And it may reveal to us certain things about the zodiac.  If we play with this and relate it to different signs of the zodiac we may find structural factors about the zodiacal signs that were not visible in other ways. 

Gamma:   I have a question here in the principle itself.  How much new things are generated by permutation? 

Alpha:   Almost always.

Gamma:   This is very important, you know.

Alpha:   Very important.  It is the whole principle of creativity. 

Beta:   And also you have a six with the one in the centre because of the three equal ...

Alpha:   Yeah.  That is right.  You know the six with the one is extremely important and that is related to the thirteen, as the one with the twelve.  Incredible. 

            So, OK we can look at that later.  Now tonight, actually, we’ve penetrated to some degree a very, very difficult subject.  And I just say to ‘some’ degree.  This is a subject which leaves most students feeling hopelessly overwhelmed or incapable of illumination.  There has been some degree of illumination.  I would say that, you know, we have done about fifteen percent, or something,

Gamma:   And it is finished by occult.  I would just like to say that  I mean why permutation, why this method is used for creation?  Why not another method?  … I am just stricken by the ...

Alpha:   ...why permutation?  Because there are … let’s put it like this ... there are only certain fundamental units which are in themselves non-replicable.  And beyond that point you cannot achieve complexity without referring to the non-replicable units.  In other words, it is just nature’s way of complexificaiton.   It looks like it is just the principle of creation to start out with what is simple and not keep on differences that are essential differences, but to create complexity by combining simplicities. 

Gamma:   That should tell us something very fundamental about the universe.  That God can only create something which is himself … He can only replicate himself in a different arrangement, and that goes very far.

Epsilon:   Because there is only Him, or It.

Alpha:   Actually it is all monad.  Monad is number one.  Monad is number one and Monad is essence and every other entity is simply a combination of God itself.  One plus one is two ....that is two gods.  Two plus one is two gods plus another, and it is all the same: it is God in relation to Himself.   

            But, it is interesting because our system of Arabic numbers at least, ends at nine, the number of completion, and after that everything begins to replicate.  You could say that up through nine we have essential numbers (even though they are composed of fundamental monad), see that is the Pythagoranism, that there is no way to create any complexity except through the addition of the monad.  But after that, after the nine, comes repetition.  Now, the question is, is this born out in cosmic structure?  The answer is probably yes.

Gamma:   Yes, nine initiations.

Alpha:   Yeah.  That is right.  Nine completes it, doesn’t it?  What is the figure that we should use in relation to nine?  There is a system of triangles … That one is very important.

Beta:   The nine which makes twelve.

Alpha:   The nine which makes twelve.  Yeah.  That is the nine which makes twelve.  And there might be a way of reducing this to a ten as well. … somehow, see this central triangle is a three and it is a one at the same time.

Delta:   Yeah.

Alpha:   You know it is very interesting that every complexity is really essence.  All numbers beyond one are false, in a certain respect.  They are not essential.  But, even one through nine, though two through nine, they are not essential, they are that from which all other things are derived because they can be used as units.  In other words once they are established through addition of the essential they can be left in their state and used as inseparable units to create other units. 

Delta:   Well (although this is a little far afield) this is our system but what about the sexidesimal system which was used by the Babylonians, or the system of thirteen’s used by the Mayans.

Alpha:   Well here is the point, does Mind, which is all of these systems, correspond with cosmic structure?  That is why I say, is it born out in cosmic structure?

Beta:   This makes a lot of sense, because this is the nine which is twelve.  This is the structure of the causal body to a certain extent.  This is also the three intersecting ethers in the head, or six.  

Alpha:   Ah-haa, creating the third eye, this is the eye of Shiva, that nine which is twelve is important, isn’t it? Maybe there is a point in the middle of it all, isn’t there?  There has to be a point.  Thirteen is really important.

Delta:   We should probably set up horoscopes based on the ninth harmonic and the seventh harmonic, use the nine’s and seven’s.  … In that thought we make a new horoscope. 

Alpha:   Um-hum.  That is a whole field of analysis....

Epsilon:   Did you do it?

Delta:   Yeah.  And its more of an Indian astrology.  They always put the ninth next, they have the natal horoscope and just put the nine right next to it.

Beta:   That is the ninth harmonic. The noviles?

Gamma:   And what does it show?

Delta:   Well, what we’re saying here is it shows our evolution in consciousness, and the seven deals with the change of form.  That is how I understand what the Alice Bailey work was saying about this ...  Completion and then change into another form.

            Whereas, in Indian astrology they use the seventh for children (I think) and ninth they use to show you ... marriage partner ... and also this [sounds likeà] ristatillian idea of intellect.  Once you get to nine it comes back on yourself, in other words it comes to ten, which is back to the one again.  Your natal horoscope is like the seed and the ninth harmonic is like the fruit that it will grow into once it becomes a tree and bears fruit.

Alpha:    Would you say that initiatory wise you could use the different harmonics to correspond to the nine initiations.  In other words the likelihood or possibility of talking a particular initiation as indicated by the different harmonics.

Delta:   Gee ... I don’t know.

Alpha:  I don’t know either, just a thought, well of course it wouldn’t be the normal ninth harmonic.  I mean, the possibility of the ninth initiation is very remote.  But, one wonders about fourth harmonic, fifth harmonic, third harmonic and so forth. 

Beta:   … It is actually calculated as the ninth harmonic?  … they do it in sort of an unusual way, right?  Don’t they displace the planets.  They create a new chart altogether?

Delta:   They make a totally new chart, yeah.  Actually, they multiply everything by nine. 

Gamma:   They multiply everything by nine starting from where.

Delta:   Well, in other words, if you had something in three degrees of Aries ....you multiply that by nine so it would become twenty-seven degrees of Aries.  If you had something at 33 degrees of Taurus, you multiply that by nine which would be 296, or 26 degrees of Capricorn. 

Beta:   That always assumes the Aries point, right?

Delta:   Yeah.  Aries is by definition zero.  Don’t they use  [sounds likeà] ‘critica’ or Pleiades as a zero point.

Delta:   See this gets back to the idea of the sidereal zodiac.  They used to use critica as zero point a few thousand years ago and then they got together in the year 500 and said, Gee, critica no longer corresponds with the spring equinox we will have to swing it back (inaudible).  They used it for a couple of thousand years, then with the procession of the equinoxes they got together and redefined the sidereal zodiac.

Beta:   They didn’t somehow think of the Pleiades as the centre of the chart, centre of all? 

Delta:   Well, maybe they do, but here is another provocative idea.  The first one in Sagittarius was called Mulha like Mulha Darha the root chakra, which means root.  So, that gives a hint that that is the true root ... Zero Sagittarius to 13 degrees 20 Sagittarius, sidereally.

Alpha:   Now this is  … OK ....

Delta:   That is a speculation, over the millenniums.

(many voices)

Alpha:   We can’t end on technicalities.  It is fascinating.  We have to ...

Delta:   If anyone is interested I can show at some other time I’ll show you how to calculate this thing like that [snaps fingers] without having to go through all those multiplications by nine and seven, just instantly.  … You can do it mentally faster than the computer.

Alpha:  He can do it.

Delta:   I will show you a fast way to do it so you can cut through all that multiplication.

Alpha:   OK, Speaking of cutting through we need to after all pack up everything here tonight ... so, we need to come to some sort of summary statements. Not statements about what has been learned, because that would take a while and tax the memory, but about what has been accomplished.  There is a difference. 

Are there any senses as to what has been accomplished by this interactions.  A short evaluation.

(end of side 14a)  

Beta:   Well, personally for me I find the most practical things that it does for me is it has given me ideas of how I can organise my work so I can actually relate it in a group context more easily.  So I have two or three techniques that pop up in my mind.

Alpha:   Yeah.  And that is part of getting things across, isn’t it?  It begins with getting things across to a group of this nature, which is comprised of people who have done their homework and more easily able to receive what is said.  And then it may evolve into getting it across to those who are newer to the material. 

Delta:   Well I feel that we have had really good buddhic co-operation, with respect and fun with each other’s positions or points or view.  Those are nice.  And though I have been very interested in the more advanced part that Alpha and Beta brought out more, I was more interested in the rudimentary part because, in doing esoteric astrology the initial presentation of it is not, for most people, they are not going to have before them the problem of how can I become a Triadal Life. 

(laughter)

... (inaudible) ninth initiation ... so I’m not making fun of it, I mean it was really valuable and I liked those conversations, but I feel I have made a lot of progress on the more rudimentary levels of how this can be presented in terms of laya yoga and the transference of energy between the centres, what planets might rule the centres. And how it might initially be presentable along those lines, a more refined understanding of the initiations because, again, most people are not facing the fifth initiation, the sixth initiation.  … it is more like being a Hobbit.  I just want to take the next baby step forward, although I really enjoy a little cosmic part too.

Gamma:   I’m taught to be very brief.  I am very grateful to have been invited because, I have been studying the Tibetan only since 1991 so I have a lot of things to catch up on. 

Beta:   ... but it is impossible, actually.

Alpha:   ....with forty years of spiritual studies ... otherwise.

Gamma:   Well, yes ....you know.   I am just  very grateful and I feel that I have somehow penetrated more into the mind of the master mind of DK.  I sense it is not so much what I have learned, but the penetration is different than before.  And I sense that when I am going to read these texts again it will be very different. And I was very glad to do that in a group, which wouldn’t be possible otherwise.

Epsilon:   I have to say I have been thankful to be able to penetrate into a way of approach and a way of unfolding group work which is not my speciality I’d say.  In that sense I am thankful and mentally I felt very, kind of awakened and stimulated.   May I say a wish?  In addition to all that which I find extremely positive, I wish at times, at least my need is there be more conscious actualisation, invocation or evocation of what we are speaking about.  … It seems to me at times we are so occupied manasically to clarify, understand, compare and so on, and it is all OK it is all part of it, however, I would like in addition to that that we keep consciously a part of ourselves sensitive to the life or the lives that we are speaking about, even if we cannot fathom them or contact them. Is there is a way of keeping one part of the consciousness with them.  And it seems to be that at times we are so taken by the manasic aspect of clarification that we forget that ...

Alpha:   Um-hmm.  There is a difference between a conception and a contact.

Beta:   You think if we spent, in addition to time summarising with each session what we had covered, but after the summary we had a brief five minute meditation, or something to assimilate it?

Epsilon:   Maybe that could help, Beta, but I am speaking, I would likeconstantly that presence there while we elucidate mentally.  One with the other, not a moment for this and then ...

Alpha:   Part of the problem of course is that when you are talking about different entities and staying in touch with them the mind changes its focus so quickly that you may be on to different subjects rapidly ...involves coming into a whole new rapport.  But, in general, you know, one can pursue this enquiry within the mind of master DK or in relation to certain of the Hierarchies ...or under the ray of the Heavenly Man ....or ...you know ...within the one great school of occultism, so to speak., in Shamballa.  You know ...under the imagined influence of Sanat Kumara ....and so forth.  That should be fairly synthetic.  And if we have the idea of preserving the milieu ...being a sort of an emanation of the one great school ....maybe we are automatically more in touch with the quality of the things we talk about.  One of the reasons for maybe losing touch with the quality ...is because the mind changes so fast.

Epsilon:   Maybe being in contact with a reality would ...in a way ...focus the mind differently.  It wouldn’t be so fast ...it would maybe be more sensitive to some presence.

Delta:   A more buddhic element I hear you suggesting ....in addition to the manasic we could have more buddhic energy present embodying these things. 

Alpha:   Yeah.  I mean, you know....its obviously ...look, our emphasis is manas from the first.  That...you know ...that is right up front ....and you know ....manas without shame.  At the same time we know we are shamelessly manasic.  We know that we are not emphasising as much ....the other aspect ...which are equally necessary and would probably, you know, deepen things as we go.  As I think, you know, by just putting ourselves and staying within the mind of Master DK as a recollection ....which we often times ....I am sure lose ....that in itself would be a guarantee.

Epsilon:   Yeah.   Because it is not that I want to take time away from manasic, or anything from the manasic focus....

Delta:   You want to deepen it.

Epsilon:   ....but I want why we are doing it.  Not, separating it ‘from’ ....or ‘in addition to’  ....why.   

Alpha:   Um-hmm.  It’s like the Vishnu aspect  ....prakriti ....

Epsilon:    It is a question of holding and .....

Beta:   Maybe we need someone to remind ....to ask us ...those questions ...as they need to be asked.

Alpha:   Um-hmm

Beta:   In a way, I feel when we manasically organised on the heart side it appears as though there is nothing but manas taking place but ....I think in all ....I sense in all of us as we are manasically engaged there is always a stepping back and breathing in .... I noticed ....

Epsilon:   At times ...yeah. 

Beta:   Almost every stage ...yeah ...people sort of drop out slightly and remain quiet ....and watch ...and it’s ....and yet the  ....another aspect of that .....is that when we are dealing with these materials and these beings I feel, in a way, we deal with it in our minds ...as a group of five minds ....converge on this material.  ...the material that itself directs us ...helps direct us as much as much as our insight/intuition ...etc. 

Alpha:   Um-hmm.

Beta:   It ....by its own nature ...it directs us ....where we go next.

Alpha:   Um-hmm.

Beta:   But I ....I know in the sentience ...I mean this aspects ....this aspect of assimilation of sentience  ....say, the coherence ...yeah, I see what you are saying.  I think that ....maybe have a feeling that the question were asked more periodically ...what ...OK  ....what is the significance of this?  And we could bring it into psychological and spiritual practicality ...periodically.  A bit more periodically than we do.  Is that what you mean?

Epsilon:   I am not sure it is what I exactly what I mean.

Beta:   I am sure it is not.

Epsilon:   It is not the significance or so it’s....

Delta:   ....a meditative awareness of what we are speaking about.

Gamma:   ....the point of tension.   You were talking about the specific point of tension which is not maybe held enough on ....high enough, perhaps.  I could say so. 

Alpha:   Well, there is a very strong point of tension for manasic realisation.

Epsilon:   Um-hmm.

Alpha:   But there is a question of ‘presence’...

Epsilon:   ...yeah.  It a question of ‘presence’.

Alpha:   And that is sort of a ....you know ....it is a ‘first ray’ thing too.   But that will come also. You know, too, as the map becomes clearer and as things fall into place and as the general structure clarifies.  Then the use of it ...the kind of inbreathing of it ...you know ....will become easier to accomplish.  Right now we are sort of scrambling to see in a very obscure background ...what is everything.  It is like a totally new environment anyway.

Beta:   In a way we are also getting to know each other manasically in a way that we haven’t had the chance.   I mean ...no one has the chance unless they spend three days together.

Alpha:   No.  no.   But that is something ...(inaudible).   I would like to say too, from my perspective that I would like to make my commentary on all of this.  I don’t really know what I am going to say about it except that I have for years been interested in bringing people together who operated at a high level of enquiry and with the will to penetrate into comprehension.  And to be willing even to use books but to dare to formulate new concepts based upon their own interactivity ....see, in a certain way ....at certain times of epiphany, you might say,  we reached a kind of critical mass where we had break throughs into totally new insights because of the tremendous mental energy and mental point of tension that we were able to hold ...at certain times.  So, this for me, represents a whole new order of enquiry.  I can sit there by myself with my computer and enquire greatly ...and I have gotten together with people one on one ...and we have enquired together and revealed together ...but when you get together ...let us say ....five (which in interestingly an important manasic and yet solar-manasic number .... you know what I mean .....five is really important) ....you have a chance of a whole new order in the realm of inclusive reason  ....which is in the master mind of Master DK   ....inclusive reason will mean that the detail of the sensed whole and the divine pattern is going to fall into place in a way that is not apprehensible under normal circumstances.  And it is like....in all of space there is no vacuum.  And in all of knowing there is no interval.  Everything is absolutely dense with omniscience.  And I got some brief kind of intimation of what it would be like to live in that kind of density of omniscience  ....if penetration could continue. Remember what DK said ....you know ...all there is is light and light cannot be used.  He said this in the Law of Repulse for the second ray  ....which is very interesting  .....you just end up knowing everything.  And I began to realise that it is possible to achieve planetary omniscience by dedicated groups if they follow this line and they are suited to this line.  So I guess that I am saying ...is that I ‘hoped’ to achieve a new order of enquiry ....and I think that movement toward that new order of enquiry has been established.  And I am remembering that a master  is the rare efflorescence of a generation of inquirers ...and I think that we have learned to enquire together.  Sure we have loose ends and misunderstanding and obtuse moments and brilliant moments ...and all of that ...but something new has been established which I hope will ...will be a tremendous luminous type of instrument if we can hold to it and take it further in perhaps even more organised manner. 

So I really want to thank you for all gathering under this short notice ...to try an experiment which is not so easy in this world to get off the ground.  You know what it takes to get here and to work together in this way and you know how rare it is to get people that are really interested to this degree and experienced to this degree  ...to do what we have been doing.  Therefore something important has happened as a result.  I have certainly learned a lot.  And I know that when I listen to this tape ...you know ....once we edit it up a bit ....  I mean, you know ....

Gamma:   I am thinking of CB you know. 

Beta:   Ah.  Gosh!

Alpha:   Ah.  No, CB is quite wonderful because she has some kind of first ray in the mind  … She is very a very good organiser.

Beta:   You are going to ask her to keep a second document on the second screen ... right?  ... for her comments while she does this.

(laughter)

Beta:   Please let her know that is a requirement.

(more laughter)

Beta:   And it will be handed out to all ...

Alpha:   Well we are probably going to learn quite a bit about speaking up ... and ... you know .... what I mean ... we are probably going to learn whether we are totally audible.  I think she is going to have trouble with audibility at times.  And she may have to leave out sections and put in blanks and all the rest of it because of audibility ... but .... We are going to learn something by re-reading the document ... and the document may be 200 pages. 

Delta:   I think also ...in our own modest way ....we provided a service in that DK probably has it somewhat scheduled what this third revelation will be early next century but I am sure to some degree it is contingent on how well we can elucidate and give body and immediate presence ....what’s been given.

Alpha:   That is right.

Beta:   I mean ...at least we have taken a little step forward here.

Alpha:    See.  And RG ...wisely ...always recommends those ...He recommends the idea of extending the teaching.  Now that is what we have been able to do to some extent.  And with the help of each other ...to make connections that I honestly feel that none of us would totally make alone.

Delta:   Yeah.

Alpha:   ....correcting each others points of view ....you see, you know what I mean.... or, giving us each additional insights ....you know ...giving us pause ...refining each other as we work together. 

Gamma:   Yeah.

Alpha:   I have been very pleased with this.  This is quite frankly just what I had hoped.  Really.  Exactly what I had hoped.  And as you all know maybe I had unrealistically high hopes for the astrology group ...a large group.  I miss this dynamic kind of interactively at such a high level.  I am hoping for the group ....you know ....to be able to lift itself ...never to this level quite because the experience of the majority cannot be that yet. 

Delta:   Well I think if people have buddhic and respect for other people’s points of view and realise where they are gifted and where it would behoove them to be silent and listen ....yeah ...that is a really key factor. 

Alpha:   Yes.  And that all requires experience.  Basically.  Experience.  So ...well that it the end, I think, for right now.  But I would suggest that we close with a mantrum.  Epsilon, would you lead us in that?

Epsilon:  You want it on tape?

Alpha:   Sure.  It is a fitting conclusion.  And then we can discuss whether we will ever meet again. 

Beta:   Well ...I really ...I want a divorce now.

(laughter)

Epsilon:   Maybe, before we say the mantrum we can take a few moments just to radiate the thankfulness of our heart and mind for the gift and the gifts of these three days together. 

Thankfulness to one another and thankfulness to the higher energies. 

And now we say the mantrum.....

 

MAY THE POWER OF THE ONE LIFE  POUR THROUGH THE GROUP OF ALL TRUE SERVERS.

MAY THE LOVE OF THE ONE SOUL CHARACTERISE THE LIVES OF ALL WHO SEEK TO AID THE GREAT ONES.

MAY WE FULFILL OUR PART IN THE ONE WORK THROUGH SELF FORGETFULNESS, HARMLESS, AND RIGHT SPEECH.