Fellowship of Cosmic Fire

Alpha: (continuing) OK. I am afraid we have ramified to such a point that we lost what we were doing of a structural nature. We had just stopped at Venus and we have looked at Jupiter as the possible heart centre. And right there we went off.

Gamma: I wanted to say that the mental [solar] plexus is connected to the astral heart. And I was wondering if this was one of the reasons why Venus could be the plexus centre of the solar logos at that point.

Alpha: Well, OK that seems a pretty good correspondence.

Now, before getting into the tentative rulerships, of what place each planet applies ... I just want to say that, if I am a man I am the sun of my system, my mental body or my mental principle is none of my chakras. Correct?

Delta: Yes, but probably your mental principle would be influenced heavily by the state of your throat chakra and your ajna chakra.

Alpha: Yeah. But my mental principle is a principle. It is a factor of consciousness. … Well, the principles themselves are sort of second aspects. They are sort of the degree of unfoldment of soul. They are the consciousness behind the vehicle. There is always going to be a consciousness behind the vehicle, right? … We really have to get this straight. Otherwise we are not going to know ...

Beta: Well it is a mystery so far.

Alpha: Let me get at this. I think that the sun has an astral body. I mean, the solar logos has an astral body. As solar logos has a mental body. A solar logos has an egoic lotus ... blah, blah, blah. And so does Jupiter and so does Venus and so does Earth and so does everything else. … I want to say that the sun’s mental body is its own mental body. And I don’t care what planet you throw out there as representing a certain factor within the system of our sun, our Solar Logos. It is not the mental body of our sun, the same way that my chakra is not my mental body. Am I being at all clear? In other words, Venus has its own mental body.

Delta: OK. the energy coming through the chakra controls the body. Maybe that would be all....

Alpha: OK. that is fine. I know there is a connection. What I want to get at is the following, Venus has its own astral body. Our sun has its own astral body. Venus is not the astral body of our sun.

Beta: Yeah, but the body is lower than the chakras, because the chakras are sort of the skeletal system of the soul bodies.

Alpha: OK. … maybe when I am saying body what I am really meaning is ‘principle’ … consciousness principle.

Gamma: So for example the astral body of the sun. The chakra, Venus, isn’t its astral body.

Alpha: Exactly. Here is kama of the sun. The sun has kama. Venus has kama.

Delta: And assuming Venus were the solar plexus chakra, it would have a larger amount of control over that astral body.

Alpha: Yeah. Venus is going to condition the kama of the sun, but the sun’s kama, or the Solar Logos’ kama is its own kama. So this is extremely important because so often we say, Oh, Solar Logos, oh yeah, Venus is the astral body or the kama of the sun. But it is not. So this has an awful lot to do with placing the planets as to what they really are.

Gamma: But, if you take a look at your own solar plexus. … We’ve said the difference of your own solar plexus means, sort of an entity, and your astral body being the vehicle of this entity ...

Alpha: OK. Wait a second, or is it the other way around? Look, let’s see if I can get this straight. I have kama. Kama is one of my principles. Right? But kama, as a principle, has an instrument on three different levels which is called a solar plexus: etheric solar plexus, astral solar plexus, mental solar plexus. Kama is the principle and these plexi are its instrument. … Because my principle is more important to me than these particular vortices within a vehicle. In other words, kama is intimate to me. My psychological nature is divided into seven principles ...

Beta: The principles have to involve other hierarchies of beings.

Alpha: OK. You see this is a subtle this is a real subtle distinction because you talk about the slap dash method ... you say ....

Beta: This becomes painful ... because then you’d say that the karmic [kamic?] body is composed of elemental essence ... or lunar pitris substance? ...to a certain extent. But, at some point the astral permanent atom is dropped ... and the focus becomes on the Buddhic permanent atom. Well, what happens to the ...

Alpha: ... the karma?

Beta: Yeah does that is that means that the lunar pitric substance becomes solar pitric substance? … to the cosmic names in the causal body.

Alpha: Well that’s really so refined, I almost can’t follow it.

Beta: I don’t know. That involves abstraction too.

Alpha: Yeah. You really abstract from something there but, you may be completely right but since I don’t have the steps to go there.

Gamma: I want to be sure about this relation of the principle or the vehicle or a plane. A plane is principle ... is it?

Alpha: No. A plane is a vehicle for a principle.

Gamma: So we would have the plane, which is a vehicle. You would have the principle which is ...

Alpha: The principle is the activator....

Gamma: ... and we would have a subject which is the first principle.

Alpha: Well you have a centre which is a reflection of the first ...

Beta: Yeah well it is an aspect. That is very difficult. It is not permanent atom. It’s not the chakra.

Alpha: You see, before we can define what a solar system is or what a man is we can’t just leap into the chakras part. You were saying this the other night ....

Beta: Well that is why the first principle aspect ....

Alpha: We have to leap into the principles. Principles and chakras. Otherwise you can’t even do astrology. You see what is terrible important ... the principles of man, as they are given on page … I opened to it. Page 262, it just fell open to it: ... the psychic evolution. Here are the principles of man. By the way he is so relativistic here, but he just tells you from a different point of view what is it. OK.

He gives us many different ways to count the principles, sometimes ten, sometimes nine, sometimes seven. Look at the top of 264. The psychic evolution, there is the spirit manifestation, the monadic egg. Now, there he seems to talk about, that’s prakriti. It shouldn’t really be that. It should be monadic something, but not the substance aspect. …

So lets ... let’s get down to something we know. Atma is will, and that is a principle. Will is independent of the prakriti through which it manifests. Then comes Buddhi, pure reason or higher wisdom, this is all related to the soul. This is the subjective nature of the being. In other words ...

But some of these enumerations are prakritic. And some of them are principled. And we have got to distinguish between the particular ones ... Let’s count up the vehicles in man ...

Beta: The monadic egg here he is always talking causally.

Alpha: Wait a second. He can’t talk causally here because we have pure mind, higher mind, which is the causal area. He is starting from the top. There is a monadic auric egg on its own plane.

Delta: It seems there is a difference between a principle or the yang element, and the vehicle the principle uses or the yin element.

Alpha: Yes. And that is right. And we have to substantiate that.

Delta: And then it says clearly in Cosmic Fire. The creative hierarchies are the vehicles through which the rays manifest.

Alpha: It says that in one place but in another it makes the rays lower than the hierarchies. So we have to check that out as well. As matter of fact tomorrow we will be dealing with the hierarchies.

But, the point is before we can understand a solar system or a man, or what place a secondary being has in a greater being, we have to understand the constitution of the greater being. It is too easy to just look at our chakras or to look at the planets and say ah, yes those are the seven parts of the greater being forgetting that the greater being has its own seven parts.

Delta: So, simply put, there are principles and there are vehicles through which the principles manifest.

Alpha: Yes, if we can understand what a principle really is. That’s why I started to enumerate these things, you see.

Beta: Just in the middle of that page she has a, b, c ... sevenfold objectivity, the material forms, sevenfold subjectivity, psychic evolution, the seven fold spirituality, the life of the entity.

Alpha: Well there it is. There it is. The sevenfold objectivity is prakritic. … I don’t think that the people who have given us the principles and bodies have respected this twenty-one fold differentiation, which she puts here in the middle of 264.

Gamma: Sevenfold subjectivity would be the principle.

Alpha: Yeah. Sevenfold subjectivity is soul within every vehicle. In other words, What is it like for soul to have to work through desire? What is it like for soul to work on the plane of mind? Sevenfold consciousness as bounded by matter of different types. And by the way the sevenfold life of the entity, sevenfold spirituality, how are you going to divide that? …

Beta: Well, she says it right in that next sentence: “We will note also that in the tabulation of the spiritual life of the Monad we considered it as fivefold.”

... not seven fold. “This was necessarily so in this fivefold evolution, but the remaining two principles ...”

... of the monadic evolution, or as life entity … “might be considered as The life of the Heavenly Man in Whose body the human Monad finds a place.”

Alpha: OK, Find for me the life tabulation of the monad.

Beta: The page before, Page 263. Top. “The psychic nature of the Monad is twofold.

1. The principle of atma. Spiritual nature. Will.

2. The principle of buddhi. Love nature. Wisdom.

3. The principle of manas. Intelligence nature, Activity.

“Note here that the three principles in terms of the Triad with the two synthesising principles on the plane of the Monad, make five principles and give the key to H. P. B.'s numbering in certain places. We might express it thus:”

Beta: So the two synthesising principles that she notes as I, II, III ....

I. The Absolute The Monad.

II. 1. Prakriti Active intelligence. The Divine Manasaputra.

2. Purusha Love-Wisdom. The Vishnu aspect.

On the plane of objectivity.

III. 3. Atma. The Triad.

That is five: Prakriti, Purusha, Atma, Buddhi, Manas.

Alpha: OK. And that is the life aspect? … Is this what she calls the life of the entity, the sevenfold spirituality? Now, maybe we are going to discover something. Let me ask, What is the difference between action and consciousness? I have a reason for asking this.

Beta: If you say action is the same as activity?

Alpha: I am not differentiating there. You know what I have just done here? You know what I am about to say? Life is one undifferentiated … it’s it own thing. The Absolute. I am just beginning to wonder. I might realise I am making a mistake, from before, What if the principles are not the psychic differentiations but are in fact, the differentiations of spirit? And what if the psychic differentiations are in fact the type of consciousness that results from the interaction of the seven spirit activities with the seven material envelopes producing seven types of consciousness. …

Let me just repeat what I said to make sure we got it. The search right now is to figure out what is a principle. And I am just beginning to realise, by looking at these principles, that they may be reflections of the spirit aspect. And that the consciousness that results from the interaction of the principle with the prakritic field is seven differentiated natures of a different kind. … Before I said the principles are definitely related to consciousness.

So, here is what I am saying, maybe atma is a kind of activity. It is a kind of dynamic movement which is spirit generated. It is will. And maybe the field in which it operates is prakritic. And maybe what arises from the interplay of the two is what we call consciousness upon the atmic plane, or what the Buddha achieved. See … I am looking for the origin of principles here.

Beta: Well the prakriti aspect is … inherited from a previous solar system. Purusha is still latent. Love-wisdom is not fully developed … but it sort of fills in the form created by prakriti.

Gamma: We have here on page 264 ... we have here the enumeration of the principle… at the bottom of 265 remember that the physical body is not a principle, that atma is not a principle ...

Alpha: OK. Now, but hold on … Atma is not a principle because when atma means the Atman, it means the ray of the absolute, which everybody shares. … But when atma is spiritual will ... it is a principle.

Beta: It is a principle. And the reason for that, speaking about the philosophy of Bailey, is that Blavatsky dealt with the principles inherited from the previous system where atma was the top most plane. … So the principles are enumerated from atma down. Bailey is introducing where we are headed which will include the monadic.

Alpha: But atma is not the Atman. … And this is a big problem, because they are so close to each other that we ... sometimes …

Gamma: But the second principle here ... is atma. ... and here he says it is not a principle.

Beta: Well this is Bailey, but I should say that Blavatsky says the same thing. … I terrorize the theosophical students by pointing out the fact Blavatsky mentions the monad thousands of times, scores of times through her books, and she said that atma was a principle, atma was not a principle, the highest principle is atma, no the highest principle was atma-buddhi, not it was atma-buddhi-manas, no it was the monad ... and so ....

Alpha: Compiler’s revenge!

Beta: ... believe me it was horrible.

Alpha: OK. Well ... going back here for a second. Because we still are going to go the chakra system in both levels. But the point is that what we discovered is that the chakra system is not enough. To really understand the human being the whole question of sevenfold objectivity, sevenfold subjectivity, sevenfold spirituality, this is what makes an entity. Plus the One which makes the twenty-two.

Tape Nine Begins

Alpha: OK. This is tape number nine. Beta is on a cliff-hanger here. He has just discovered something.

Beta: In Bailey’s tabulation of the principles she uses a lot of Blavatsky’s references and she compiles the principles in about five or six different ways. And we just went through the subjective principles now, and then we went through, most recently, the five monadic principles which are Purusha, Prakriti, Atma, Buddhi-Manas.

But when you get to the bottom of page 265, we are trying to figure out what the life principle is in relationship to man, and we noticed on page 165 that the monad generates the etheric body. On page 77, atma isolates and encloses the vital body and prana. On the bottom of page 265, footnote d, “the etheric body is the vehicle for prana.” We know that the etheric body is not the dense physical body. Prana is enumerated as a separate principle in lower enumerations of the principles; in the lower quaternary particularly. Then, right after that it says “remember also: a) That the physical body is not a principle. b That atma is not a principle.”

However, the physical body has the etheric body generated by the monad and atma has isolated the pranic vehicle. … And that corresponds to the theosophists auric envelope, which is their way of saying that the monad doesn’t exist. The Atman is not atma. … but their atma would be called the auric envelope, or atma isolating the pranic vehicle. So this justifies the fundamentalist theosophical enumeration of the principles with all of Bailey’s details. …

Alpha: This relationship of atma with prana, in my mind, needs further clarification. But ... we can’t go into that right now. But the point has been stated coherently by Beta in the last three or four minutes, and therefore it can be developed so we can all understand it. OK.

Now, back to the idea of a principle. I just read on 263, the principles given which are spiritual principles are five fold here: active intelligence, love-wisdom, atma, buddhi, and manas. These are spiritual principles. And its says if we add two more, the life of the Heavenly Man (in whose body the human monad finds its place) we have a fivefold differentiation, of what might be called sevenfold spirituality. Right? Is that correct? … and then the seven, the life of logos in whose body the Heavenly Man finds its place. So that would be called ‘sevenfold spirituality’.

Now, unfortunately, whenever you say there are three principles you might as well say as seven principles ... you might as well say there are ten. And they could be what has happened, what has been left out here is manas, kama

, and prana and kama-manas. In other words, because higher manas has been mentioned, right? In other words atma, buddhi, manas ...

Look, you know how the first aspect is dynamic and how it has nothing to do with consciousness. The first ray types are dynamic, and they understand through energy. So, what we are asking here is are the seven principles seven dynamisms which, in interaction with passive vehicle, produce consciousness. Is there a principle called buddhi which is not buddhic consciousness? Is there a principle called atma which is not atmic consciousness? I am trying to differentiate this out into its twenty-one fold system like it is put here on page 264. You see how these are all mixed together? We cannot call will consciousness ...can we?

Delta: Doesn’t Indian philosophy go to tamatras (nabutas?) and stuff like that.

Beta: It’s true. That is the Hindu differentiation in our cosmic radius.

Delta: Would that be a help to elucidate that Hindu thing?

Alpha: It might be. We need a three fold system to go into the twenty-one.

Delta: That is the tattvas, the tamantras, and the ...

Beta: Yeah. Why don’t we look it up.

Alpha: How would we define them? … Thank God one of those books ....

Beta: It is not fresh in my mind at all.

Gamma: While he is looking at it ... here is a differentiation of principle. The basic differentiation, essential quality or type of energy upon which all things are built. They give the distinctive nature of all forms.

Alpha: That is not consciousness, page 86? That is absolutely not consciousness. “Principles, the basic differentiations, essential qualities or types of energy upon which all things are built; they give the distinctive nature of all forms.”

Delta: The tattva’s.

Alpha: That is called the tattva. Let me read you Tyberg’s definition of tattva. The word tattva means the reality or that-ness (... tattva of a thing). The seven tattva’s are the principles or essences of the cosmos, the consciousness and directed forces, the sources of the manifested elements or rudimentary stuffs of the cosmos which last are known as the mahabhuta’s, or the great [sounds like]à hasbets. … The rudimentary stuffs ...

Alpha: Are they different from tattvas?

Delta: Yeah. In other words the tattvas are the source of the bhutas.

Alpha: OK. this is very important because the bhutas are prakritic.

Delta: Yes, these great elements are not the Earth, air, water and fire we perceive here. These latter are but presentiments of these great mahabhuta’s. The two highest of these tattvas and bhuta’s are not as yet recognised by humans, but will be in the future ages. [sounds likeà] Tygasa and Apas are the adjectival forms of tetas (fire) and apas (water).

Alpha: OK. So now what are you going to put in the middle?

Delta: (inaudible) ... tanmantra. The tanmantras are in the middle and tanmantra literally means ‘merely that’ or ‘only a trifle’. A compound of tattva and matra, trifle, or a unit of measure. The five tanmantras are the rudimentary elements from which the gross elements or mahabhuta’s of earth, water, air, fire and ether arise.

Alpha: Still sounds prakritic.

Delta: Yes. It is ultimately prakritic but it is the subtlest form of ....

Beta: But this is on the cosmic level, Bailey’s cosmic level.

Delta: So, let me just read something out about the tattva’s, like the lokas and [sounds likeà] pawals, each tattva and bhuta gives birth to the tattvas and bhutas below it, and it retains a portion of all the other tattva’s and bhuta’s within it and yet manifests its own dominant characteristic. Each tattva has a corresponding bhuta of the same name. Below are the seven tattvas with their meaning. And they give adi tattva, [sounds likeà] anapadaka tattva, akasha tattva … These are the planes ...

Alpha: These are not the planes. These are the potencies ... the energies.

Delta: Yeah. .... tigasa or (inaudible) tattva (the fire principle), laya tattva (air principle), apas tattva (water principle), and pritivhi tattva (earth principle).

Alpha: So basically, tattvas are energies and like Gamma just said, a principle is a basic differentiation ... “essential qualities, or types of energy upon which all things are built. They give the distinctive nature of all forms.”

Delta: So the principles would be the tattva’s.

Alpha: The principles are the tattvas and they are modes of motion, or they are energies. In other words, this is what I want to get at and it is difficult for me to frame. Is it possible to consider that there is a mode of motion called ‘will’ ... a dynamic patterning force called ‘will’ which moves (this is primitive, but), which moves the matter of a certain level of prakriti in such a way that a certain type of consciousness arises? Is there a possibility, of an aggregating energy which we call Buddhi, an attractive energy which we call Buddhi (it is not consciousness yet; it is just an energy) that moves prakriti on a certain level in such a way that the consciousness of love, or of harmony arises?

Delta: That would be the tanmantra.

Alpha: OK. But the way you describe tanmantra sounded so prakritic. It sounds still connected with the third aspect. … But are we understanding what I am trying to get at?

Gamma: That consciousness is the effect of life on matter.

Alpha: Yes. It is as simple as that.

Gamma: Where is the principle in that?

Alpha: The principle is that it is a structuring principle. In other words it ...

Gamma: Is it a pre-consciousness thing?

Beta: Maybe it is just like what was described as atma, atma as a ray that comes down, isolates a circle of prana and creates a field of interaction.

Alpha: Yeah. Look, all you have when you are dealing with prakriti is a field. All you have is a field of homogeneous substance ... built in a particular way by fohat, let us say. But you have no form.

Beta: That is true, we are approaching this relativity principle (not relativism), but relativity because the devas and the pitris are always, relative, you know which one is on top, or which is energy and force. … Force involved with the shell and the energy pouring through the form. So, consciousness is incredibly difficult to discuss, except that I think that it is … what makes up our body of consciousness. We still are dealing with prakritic level.

Alpha: Consciousness is not prakriti. Consciousness is the registration of forms of prakriti.

Beta: Well if you go way back to the beginning of the universal, we’d have the circle, the empty circle, which represents mulaprakriti or akasha.

Alpha: OK. And that is akasha at the very highest sense but mulaprakriti itself is not consciousness. … Consciousness has nothing to do with Mulaprakriti in my opinion.

Beta: Well it is a field of consciousness because it is only when purusha is reflected back ..

Alpha: ... mulaprakriti is the field in which consciousness arises.

Beta: Yeah. But it comes first.

Alpha: Mulaprakriti comes third ... well, almost like the three burst simultaneously....

Beta: That is a very difficult.

Gamma: We are victim of our (inaudible) here.

Alpha: I know, but that is all we have.

Delta: What will this help us do .... once we solve this?

Alpha: OK. What will this help us do? Well, we are almost done but, we have to get into how any type of system is really put together in order to find out what the parts of the system mean. So right now we are trying to say, instead of just diving into a bunch of chakras, we are asking What is the man? Whether it is a Heavenly Man, Solar Man, or human being – of what is he composed? And in doing so we said, the principles are different from the chakras … we began to ask ourselves, what is a principle?

And now we are seeming to say that a principle is really part of sevenfold spirituality, the life of the entity ... Normally you consider life to be unitary and non divisible, but it seems to me that the principles are now derived from the first aspect and not from the second aspect.

Beta: I still think they are second. Because … the thing is you always have to think of an entity higher that provides the form for what is below. It could be his definition of time is the consciousness of form. So what does that say about consciousness?

Alpha: Time is the consciousness of form. OK. Well I can see that. (Laughs.) I think I can see it.

Beta: I am just trying to reframe the consciousness question. The principles, seven principles, could be looked upon as chakras on a higher level. Principles could be looked upon as chakras on a higher plane because they are energy and they are essential qualities. So on some level they are the energy to the lower, the energy that flows to the lower chakras which are the form. But then the principles themselves could be considered chakras which conduct energy from the dynamic source, the life aspect …

Gamma: You would say, for example, that the plexus we have would be principled by the cosmic plexus?

Beta: Yes, exactly. Because that is why the monadic spirit is only five principles. And one of the two synthesising principles is latent. It is not even fully expressive. (And this ties in with the four kumaras ... yes, it seems to tie into many things, but then), if you have a fivefold monad of principles, that means that universal life is, she said the ___ sixth and seventh could be added as the cell in the body of the Heavenly Man. And ....

Alpha: Yeah. The life of the logos in whose body the Heavenly Man finds his place. ... what I am trying to say is principles seem to me to be the refraction of life. They seem to be dynamic structuring energies that are not consciousness, per se ... but give rise to the appearance of consciousness. And normally, what I think happens, is we confuse consciousness with the dynamism that produced it. I think that is normally what happens when we think about a particular level. When we think about Buddhi we only think about Buddhic consciousness and we fail to think about what dynamism produced Buddhic consciousness.

Beta: ... the larger entity.

Alpha: Sure. Where it comes from is fine. I don’t even care where it comes from. I know it came from somewhere.

Beta: Yeah, but the interesting thing then is that we are part of a larger constitution, which is fivefold or seven fold? ... and then when we look at the principle substance … and think of it as the principles themselves, the dynamisms.

Alpha: ... which would be a mistake.

Beta: ... a mistakeyes, and if we actually sorted out and realised that dynamism’s are planetary in nature. For the time being they are holding us by the hand ... but as we identify with higher and higher states we will be autonomous and our identity will be focused and identified on the higher planes so we take that office or place in the (inaudible) body. … So in a way we are stuck sort of in between now recognising that we are part of the pranas of the Heavenly Man and the life aspect.

Alpha: When you say the pranas of the Heavenly Man which specifically do you mean?

Beta: I was just thinking about the quote that we read where at the third initiation the initiate becomes conscious of the pranas emanating from the Heavenly Man. And that is not the energy emanating from the cosmic astral, two or the three emanating from the cosmic mental. That doesn’t include those, but the third initiation does, however, include the pranas.

Alpha: OK. But the question, quite apart from the origins of these streams of energy with respect to our local system (which is a study all in itself), the questing has to be resolved in the simplest possible way at first. Is a principle a dynamism, that is distinct from the consciousness that arises from it, quite apart from where that dynamism comes. Is this a clear question? And if this is a clear question, then this thing on page 264 is extremely important, dividing the twenty-one fundamental aspects of any being.

Beta: These are the twenty-one modes of activity too.

Alpha: Ah. Is consciousness a mode of activity? Or is consciousness the result ...

Beta: No, the modes of activity are actually the third aspect that somehow manifest in twenty-one ways. And then I think the twenty-one ways correspond to this. You know, in Cosmic Fire, the twenty-one ways.

Alpha: Yeah. Sure there are twenty-one’s that are really important …

Beta: And that just signifies that activity, intelligence is active. … Love-wisdom is still latent. … So the Vishnu aspect which all of our questions surround Vishnu and the Shiva aspects ...

Alpha: Yes. Exactly. What we tried to do in this last half hour of discussion ... OK, well, the point is .... what we tried to do is to separate out and recombine the Shiva and the Vishnu aspects, which are normally confused with each other. As a matter of fact, when you take the positive, negative and neutral or the subject, the object and the relationship between, they are frequently confused with each other. And basically we’ve been at trying to find out what a man is, I mean by man any system within cosmos …

Gamma: You could say atom also.

Alpha: Yeah. Man ... atom ... Heavenly Man, etc. Now. OK. Quite apart from where the dynamism’s come, and we can find their sources (perhaps), we are at the point where we are preparing to move into the subject that was intended.

Delta: Well we never really honoured that point because these are the different schools of Indian philosophy which is a footnote right through here. In other words are we talking about monism, dualism, qualified dualism ....

Alpha: Wait a second. I don’t get where the question is coming from.

Delta: The whole theme of the discussion is, is the thing a unity, a duality, a triplicity ....or a qualified duality. That was the whole theme of this discussion of the last hour ... or half-hour. And those discussions are exploring the different schools of Indian philosophy. There is some footnote somewhere there in the book. And we have to go into all that. As to how each school makes its point, and so forth ...

Alpha: Well, OK. We will get to that. Let’s look at the schools. They are the school of logic, which is

Beta: The schools are the principles we are talking about. (the footnote in on 285 lists the different schools.)

Alpha: I can tell you what they are.

Delta: Yeah. Well, how do we handle the principles, are they, separate principles or is there a total ...

Alpha: Look, I’ll tell you what. Handle it from the point of view of the seventh school, which is Atmavidya, which is the sort of theosophical or the total picture which combines them all. Handle it from the point of view of the synthetic one. OK. But wait a second. I am not sure why that is going to delay our entry into discussing a chakra system.

Delta: Well, in other words you are trying to say, does a basic principle interact with matter producing consciousness? So far as I understand it. Or, is there a basic consciousness that is all-pervading to begin with?

Beta: Or, we have to point to the definitions we did of mahabhuta’s, and tanmantras, Is there a qualified dualism where there is basic principle and then there are two types of prakriti namely the tanmantras, the subtle essence of prakriti and the bhutas, the (inaudible).

Alpha: Yeah. Well, I am not sure why.... I am still not sure why we have to clarify that in order to ...

Beta: The six schools are the six principles. And this has to be within the body of a Planetary Logos.

Alpha: Well, look. You, know. You can correlate these with different rays. I have done this. That the Gnosis...

Delta: I agree. If we can get to the Gnosis aspect, that is the best thing. The footnote is on page 285. The different schools. So maybe we can just leave it at that with some sort of closure.

Beta: Oh. Let me add just one more thing, which is a graphic and may tie a lot of this together. It’s the picture of Brahma as the creator of the universe but if we want to separate the prakritic, the chakric and or the prakritic, the consciousness and psychic aspect of the ... spirit aspect. And Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva we have them all depicted here. In the body of Brahma himself … this is Brahma on a lotus ... also four-faced Brahma ... but the Rishis are all made to be chakras in the body of the five kumara’s, are infants in the head centres. The Shiva aspect are the seven centres above the head (or the five , the esoteric seven, the five active). The seven centres that are models for the seven centres in the body who are all depicted by Rishis.

Delta: Those are the Great Bear.

Beta: The Rishis, right as Chakras.

Alpha: Well Rishis are called the Great Bear, but Rishis is a generic term. … I saw that the seven Rishis on the fourth, the buddhic plane …

Delta: If you look at The Tradition of the Seven Rishis by John E Mitchiner, He goes through all this stuff in the Indian tradition in terms of the seven Rishis and how it appears. But it is all in terms of the Brahma aspect of divinity. Which is all Hinduism goes into in general ...

Alpha: In other words you are saying that the Rishis as they are listed here are Brahmic, hence can be found within matter?

Delta: Yes. According to the Hindu tradition. Not necessarily according to the Alice Bailey tradition.

Beta: However, in the Brahma aspect you have Vishnu and Shiva. And that is all we can see in our solar system. Because we have only one seventh part of a Solar Logos … it embodies all three (inaudible).....

Alpha: Well the Vishnu and Brahma is grown up ... Vishnu and Shiva are not.

Beta: Brahma though is always the solar system, at the systemic level. And if we are dealing with seven solar planes this is it because Brahma, the solar system itself, is a Bramanda or an egg of Brahma.

Alpha: Yeah. And do you include the astral plane and the lower mental plane in Brahma? … So basically it does not....

Beta: Exactly. That is the whole point. The Vishnu aspects are the chakras, the psychic aspect which operate through the chakras in relationship to the dense physical body which could be a physical solar system.

Delta: This Vishnu aspect is the five kumaras.

Beta: ... or the Brahma aspect and the seven lower planes but which could also be divided into the three lowest planes, that would be the dense vehicle. The four higher planes would be the etheric vehicle (as depicted in the body of Brahma). The Vishnu aspect is reflected in the etheric system and then the Shiva aspect in the etheric system is reflected in the kumara. So they want to deal in terms of the schemes in the, uh, chakric level. This puts the Shiva, the Vishnu and the Brahma all into one. The Brahma aspect would be the (inaudible) ....and the aspects of the physical body. But, the Vishnu would be the chakric system.

Delta: Shall we continue after dinner?

Alpha: We are summarising before supper. I guess we wanted to understand a chakric system ...that can reflect schemes, chains and globes, and what we can see of them. (Inaudible) ... the schemes chains and globes are not visible to us physically like constellations in the sky. …

Beta: So I guess, between schemes, chains and rounds we might think of that as psychic .....and the and systems level, visible systems level, dense physical.

Alpha: It is somewhat psychic, but it is also prakritic.

Beta: And we do see some ether in behind the physical, at least the fourth ether.

Alpha: Yeah. And we also want to know the limitations of the chakras. See this is a very important thing. Because it is quite possible to look at the chakras and say that they are everything. You have a system, there are these seven things there and they are everything. But, what I have been trying to point out is, how far the chakras really go within the system of which they are part.

Beta: Right. I think, if you put seven head centres, seven centres above the head, you have a Shiva system. … seven centres in the body, you have the Vishnu system , and the body itself … is the Brahma system. The etheric system, the seven chakras also is three fold if it includes the meridians and nadis. But then the cellular level is Brahma. And we are cells in the body of the Heavenly Man. Does that say something Brahmic about us or something Vishnu about us? I think it says something Brahmic. … For me that is the manasaputra level. The lowest level of our causal body, of our causal nature. With Agnishvattas the central, and Manasadevas the higher.

Alpha: Well, OK, in order to manipulate all those terms we have to remember what they all are.

Beta: So. ... to be continued ...

Delta: ... to be continued.

Beta: Well the Solar Logos is a cell in the body of the OAWNMBS.

Alpha: (He is both a chakra, cell, and an atom … he uses all those terms chakra, cell and atom.)

Beta: I am just trying to frame it. The Solar Logos we know reincarnates like humans do. Each time it reincarnates it creates a solar system ... a physical system. So, on the systemic level and our seven planes of the systemic level, all we have are the pranas that come from the chakras. We don’t have the chakras themselves. We have the body and we might have the ...

Alpha: Well, slow down there for a second. Cause I am not sure that we follow what you just said. … He said we have all the pranas that come from the chakras but not the chakras themselves.

Beta: Maybe that is not correct. … We know the solar logos is a cosmic entity ... a greater cosmic entity. The Planetary Logos is a cosmic entity. So they are cosmic and they extend up into the cosmic, but, if you want to put the Solar Logos and the cosmic entity into the systemic planes, you can do it this way ... (and this is the only way I can see) because then this deals with all of the etheric levels on the systemic plane. You put the Shiva aspect on the top, the seven head centres, they’re etheric, and you have etheric centres, and you have a physical dense body. So then you have the dense Brahma body on the first three planes, two and a half planes. … You have the Vishnu aspect through the ethers. And you have the Kumara aspect, the Shiva aspect through to the highest ethers.

Alpha: ... the highest ethers? ... or, the atomic ether?

Beta: It could be atomic.

Alpha: That is the division known as 1-3-3

Gamma: How is that different from the cosmic level?

Beta: On the cosmic level we have three mental energies, two astral and then seven pranas. Three of the mental, you know, so then we have the causal body and mental associated with Sirius. Sirius is fivefold and reflects through the fivefold kumaras. …

Alpha: I think the rate of speed [of Beta’s explanation] has to be about one-fifth, Seriously. In other words, everything hangs together, but the speed has to be slowed down and then us dense heads will ‘get it’. No, it is true ... Now you are dealing with people here that have the studied the stuff for a long time, think about what is happening when you speak ...