Fellowship of Cosmic Fire

Beta: One of the things that, when I was trying to think of the names for the Planetary Logos, you know the Planetary Logos is focused on the cosmic mental plane, at least, and probably the cosmic monadic. ....but giving the Planetary Logos names on the solar plane, I still have a lot of questions in the second and third planes, the monadic and atmic plane, whether the Spirits Before the Throne fall into the second, or the Ray Lords on the third, or visa versa.

But here is another cite on 152 which says the seven rays are regarded as the seven veiling forms of the spirits. But, since the Planetary Logos is on the cosmic planes as well, is much more focused on the cosmic planes as a soul, and in terms of its own development, each of these citations have to be examined as to whether they refer to a physical phenomenon, like the rays artificially regarded as the seven veiling forms of the Spirits before the Throne, or does this mean the seven rays are ultimately veiling forms for the spirits?

Alpha: Well, the seven rays cannot be that low in the development.

Beta: But if they doubled as solar prana they would be.

Alpha: What do you mean by solar prana.

Beta: That is a good question because they could be associated with the Planetary Logoi in the second plane, where the pranas … or the ray lords hit the physical plane ether, in the second ether. And also it has to do with etheric and pranic attachment to the higher vehicles. But we have to ask on what subplanes are the deva raja lords focused since they are almost undoubtedly associated with the cosmic astral, or mental.

Alpha: But they are focused bodily on their own cosmic subplane. Like Varuna is manifesting as the Raja Lord of our systemic astral plane. Although it is saying.

Beta: Right. But you are saying ‘its life’ and in the (inaudible) the Deva Raja Lords organise the substance of our solar systemic plane. … They have to be on a higher level. They have to be on the cosmic astral or mental.

Alpha: And do you think they also have causal bodies and monads? They certainly have monads.

Beta: Oh. I think they are certainly evolutionary. And I don’t know how many permanent atoms they have or any of the details about them (its a bit more obscure for me), but I know they form part of the mental unit of the solar logos. So that means that ... (inaudible) associated with the permanent atoms. … They are associated (I don’t know how closely) or, if they live there I think their consciousness is probably focused there and they’re probably subject to Lord Agni, in a sense.

Alpha: And Lord Agni himself though is considered to be manifesting (bodily) as our systemic mental plane, but is the life of the cosmic mental plane?

Beta: Right. All the aspects of the personality below the causal body .... of the Solar Logos. And also all the aspects of the causal body, in a sense, below the soul itself, that would include the permanent atoms as well.

Alpha: OK. Well that is another subject, the whole question of the Raja Lords. They are on our entity list and where they are manifesting and where they are polarised and where they are originating is a fascinating question, but ...

Beta: ... that’s why I was saying that if you look at Ray Lords you have to ask what relationship do the Ray Lords have in terms of a planetary lord, or either Planetary Logos or Heavenly Men are down lower, or very high. What relationship do they have to the Deva Raja Plane, who rule our solar planes.

Alpha: It seems to me that Ray Lords are related to the second aspect particularly. In other words, I infer this because all the second ray souls ... The second ray souls study particularly the seven rays, that is their method.

Beta: They are a pranic energy coming in to the second plane of the seven planes, ah ...

Alpha: They are monadic, they touch the monadic, our monadic plane.

Beta: Right, they may have correspondences on the atomic level of all the seven solar planes but they are not the entities responsible for organising the material which are probably lower entities. And these are quality second logos as ethers that are coming in ... So this is another argument that ether is not just meant as a physical or etheric energy, but perhaps as a mental or etheric subplane of one of the other.

Beta: We know the hierarchy organises the five planes of the monad, and the three higher and the etheric or the three highest subplanes of the atmic.

Alpha: But the five planes of monad are the three higher subplanes. Oh! The three higher subplanes of the atmic, I got it. This is what Robert Gerard used to say, he used to somehow equate the three higher subplanes of the atmic to the three higher subplanes of the mental.

Beta: Yeah. But there is this real direct citation that says that the hierarchy organises from that plane, from those ethers, like our ego organises our soul being.

Alpha: And there is even some discussion that the three higher subplanes of the monadic plane are terribly important as well.

Beta: That is where our monads are as well.

Delta: Can I slightly shift the subject to one tangential thing. Page 152, b, it says the seven planes rotate latitudinally and the seven rays longitudinally. I can see just in terms of the fifth ray empirical cycles, I can certainly see the rays rotated longitudinally, you know … Jupiter having a twelve year cycle and so forth. So do we infer from this also the planes can be, once we decide on the rulerships between ... ummm. … [If we] study cycles of heliocentric latitude, we will understand the way the planes cycle in and out.

Beta: I think that certainly would be symbolically analogous, an analogy is not a correspondence, I think that certainly when you think of the magnetic system of the Earth, the aurora borealis pours down from the north pole and there are various other factors that give us latitudinal movement. It would be a great, an incredible study!

Gamma: (inaudible) ... anything about these planes rotating from east to west and the vehicle north to south.

Delta: He is just simply saying that everything is present all at once so that there is no way you can assign any direction to anything … but, in other words the four maharajas of the four parts North, South, East and West, the solstice and equinox points.

Alpha: Well, wait a second ... the rotation from east to west ... after all planes are spheres ... So they are spheres of material interpenetrating. I think he is saying that they rotate along their equators, so to speak, whereas the rays are rotating along their axis.

Epsilon: It is page 152.

Alpha: Yeah ... yeah. Then he goes on to confuse that.

Beta: And if he uses the image of a plane fixed, say a latitude, then it could be a disc that rotates east to west.

Alpha: ... (inaudible) the planes are rotating this way when he says east to west. Doesn’t it? I mean, this way. And does it not seem that the rays are rotating in this manner.

Delta: They are at right angles to each other.

Alpha: They are, but the word longitudinally and latatidunally used to confuse me until he clarified it, east to west and north to south.

Gamma: ... the Earth is rotating west to east.

Alpha: … the Earth is rotating west to east. And the planes east to west.

Beta: Right. How about atmospherically?

Gamma: What is friction.

Alpha: Well, but no, that is very interesting.

Beta: That’s in the law of friction, yeah.

Alpha: But Kshiti is the ruler of the etheric plane. The plane lords or the planes are rotating east to west which means that the ethers are rotating counterwise to the dense material.

Beta: Right. And it involves fire by friction.

Alpha: But that is an interesting thought isn’t it. That the Earth is rotating west to east but the ethers which are still part of the physical plane and hence, you know, of the plane, are rotating east to west. …

Beta: ... that could be internally too and associated with the magma or the mantel. Maybe a magnetic effect.

Gamma: … even if it is a magma it is five or ten times more stronger than steel in terms of … so it has movement, but they are very slow, one or two meters a year, something like that. … the whole thing turns as a unit. And the magnetic field as ... as the matter itself. …

[deleted some technical banter.]

Delta: So getting back to the triangles listed on page 169-170. To me this is far too short a list and in a way it is a joke. He talks about the prana triangle so that is always going to be in effect. ... and then the last triangle, number six, spiritual man to fifth initiation. On 170, he says:

a. The heart.
b. The seven head centres.
c. The two many-petalled lotuses

On page 178 in Cosmic Fire he says the following, top paragraph, about the sixth triangle on page 170: “It covers the totality of time remaining in the one hundred years of Brahma, or the remainder of the process of manifestation.”

So to me this list becomes a joke. … It is just too simplistic.

Beta: But it says something fantastic about the fivefold evolution of humanity under the five planes under the monad. And that relates ...

Gamma: There is one thing which is very important. One of the centres is always the heart. We should take this into consideration when we look at co-operation between the solar chains or solar (inaudible) ....

Epsilon: And is there something more at page 183 about this.

Alpha: Something is very very strange about this statement that it covers ...

Epsilon: “The sevenfold head centre in its turn finds ultimate expression in the gorgeous twofold centre above the top of the head and surrounding it.”

Alpha: “The sevenfold head centre in its turn finds ultimate expression in the gorgeous twofold centre above the top of the head and surrounding it.” Isn’t the two fold centre the twelve and the nine-sixty?

Beta: ... could be, I mean that is the only way you could interpret this sort of traditionally. Otherwise it would be unusual. … its right at the centre of the thousand petalled lotus and the twelve petals in the centre …

Alpha: Just one thing, to connect this with what has just been said here. Is, on page 170, “the two many petalled lotuses”, point c, the same as the gorgeous two-fold centre above the top of the head? Is that something else or is it the ajna centre and the head centre, the crown centre considered as a whole. Or is it really something else?

Beta: And the Alta major is mentioned in number four, I guess.

Alpha: Yeah, the alta centre. But the ajna centre is never mentioned. Is that a many petalled lotus? In other words are we ...

Beta: It most certainly is.

Alpha: It is ... two, many-petalled lotuses, the seven head centres. So the seven head centres are different?

Beta: So this must be etherically, because then that would explain why the ajna comes in near the end as fully developed.

Epsilon: I don’t think it is ajna because it always goes from lower to higher, see? Heart, throat, head … heart, throat, seven head centres.

Beta: Yeah but the ajna centre is not mentioned anywhere else through all of this.

Epsilon: ... so heart centre, head centre and two many petalled lotus. I don’t think it is ajna.

Beta: But the seven head centres is not the thousand petalled lotus.

Epsilon: No, but I think what he speaks about, page 183, when he says “... in the gorgeous twofold centre above the top of the head” ... and that gorgeous twofold head centre above the top of the head is the two many petalled lotuses he mentioned at the (c).

Alpha: But, say one of the lotuses is not many petalled? It is just twelve. That is not many. It is twelve within 960.

Epsilon: But you say twelve and 960. It is many petalled, 960.

Alpha: I am just wondering if he is hinting at some sort of subtle etheric anatomy that he has never talked about.

Beta: But, if at a certain stage the shoulder chakra become involved, then it would make sense the ajna would blend with the thousand petalled lotus in a very extraordinary way.

Alpha: Well, if the number of petals within a chakra tells you its power. In other words, here is the old question: Is the throat centre with sixteen really more powerful than the heart centre with twelve? Even though in our bias its not, because it is third aspect verses second aspect. But, is the ajna with ninety-six plus two really the second most powerful centre within the system? Regardless of the fact is associated with the personality on the lower level and all the rest of it. Is it not the second most powerful centre? Just because of number.

Delta: Well, the control of our being, at first for the personality of uninvolved man, is the heart chakra. This is a quote in Esoteric Astrology somewhere towards the end ...

Alpha: I do remember it. There are different ways of interpreting it.

Delta: The soul ...is the crown chakra, and the personality is the heart chakra. It is somewhere in here.

Beta: That would be very interesting. That might indicate a stage.

Delta: Yeah, that is a less evolved stage, and so at that point the heart chakra is formed of just twelve petal and then later on the ajna chakra controls, which is ninety-six petals.

Alpha: Which is a multiple, you know it is 12 x 8.

Beta: The usual sequence that I see: head, heart, ajna ... they interact in different ways. The throat focalizes better than the ajna.

Alpha: … the heart will transfer to the throat.

Beta: Yeah ... then the alta major comes in. A bit later, after the pranic triangle comes hyperactive … this is all very difficult material. …

Gamma: … I am wondering if it could not be a equivalent specific stage in time for a number of chakras in acceleration in time. A number of petals in chakras ... in acceleration in time.

Alpha: Um-hmm. In other words the more the petals the more rapidly they would tend to unfold because it is in a later stage of evolution when acceleration is ruling. … Well, that makes some degree of sense, I say. But, the point is, is there a principle that the greater the number of petals the more advanced the chakra?

Delta: Let’s table that for the moment.

Alpha: Well, it is going to relate directly, you see.

Beta: We have to make sure that we have the physical ethers separate from the astral or mental, or that we know consciously, technically what the relationship is between the ethers ...

Delta: Well, I guess that would be the implication on page 60 in Cosmic Fire, that sentence on the significance of the four circles in the egoic lotus and the eight circles of twelve petals each in the etheric lotuses on the mental planes is of great importance. So in other words, whichever chakra has the most petals is going to be controlling those … tiers of twelve.

Alpha: OK. Well. So how shall we proceed with this?

Delta: We talk about the heart centre, page 512 in Esoteric Astrology. “In undeveloped man, the five non-sacred planets control, with the head and the heart centres under the rule of two sacred planets, which planets being determined by the rays of the soul and of the personality”

So for the undeveloped man the soul controls the head centre and the heart controls the personality centre. The ray of the heart is the personality ray, the ray of the head is the soul ray.

Alpha: OK. So, in other words, most of what is said of the heart centre in Esoteric Healing relates it to far more than the personality. And interestingly ....

Delta: This is for undeveloped man though. So this is someone who is really not on the path probably.

Alpha: And I guess what we have to remember again is the threefold aspect of every chakra. That during the personality stage of life the outer aspect of the chakra controls. During soul stage, the inner aspect and, then the jewel of each chakra during the spirit aspect. So I guess we could make it work that way.

OK. Now let’s see, if given all of this (which is almost endless) whether we can get a sense of the sequence of unfoldment of the chakras that is meaningful to us which we can somehow relate to the unfoldment of planets which will tell us something, which will give us keys. I mean, you know, if I was to look right here on page 693 of Esoteric Astrology and I was to say that Vulcan, Saturn and Jupiter are not very unfolded relatively within our scheme, our solar scheme, or let’s call it a solar system, I would say that whatever chakra Vulcan represents, Saturn represents and Jupiter represents, for whatever reason are less developed than what these other planets represents.

Delta: Not necessarily. You see it talks about advanced egos coming in much later in evolution. … relative to humanity, it talks about advanced egos waiting until the time is right to come in so it might be these advanced planets intentionally wait until later, come in later in the evolution of solar system. …

Alpha: But that is not the point. It doesn’t mean they are less advanced. It just means they are advanced beings who are coming in later in the developmental sequence. … That is all I mean. That fits, you see. Now the only question is each solar system is unique just like each human energy system is unique. We are the second ray solar system so the big question is, look, Mars is pretty well advanced (I shouldn’t use the word advanced, I should mean ‘developed’, because advancing has nothing to do with this. Advancement is the quality of the entity itself, whether it is sacred or non-sacred or synthetic. OK. ...that is advancement. … I am just using the word developed, or unfolded. Mars is unfolded, Earth is unfolded, Mercury has unfolded and Venus has really unfolded. Now there is a reason for believing that Venus correlates with the solar plexus centre of the Solar Logos, which would be very interesting, if I may say, because our Solar Logos is polarised upon the cosmic astral plane.

Gamma: You know and part of that is at the egoic lotus, our egoic lotus, the plexus on the mental plane is linked to the heart centre on the astral plane and is linked to the plexus on the ...

Alpha: Well he is saying there is peculiar alternation, that mental solar plexus is linked to the heart centre on the astral plane and the solar plexus chakra on the physical plane.

Beta: Right. That is the great chart.

Alpha: They alternate. They alternate. … Solar plexus to heart to solar plexus to heart and so forth. But, you see, getting to the idea that all depends on the kind of entity that you are dealing with. If you are dealing with a second ray entity (remember what he said about unfolding the egoic lotus), for the love type of entity the knowledge petal will be first to unfold but the love petal will follow right away. ... and then also for that type of being the knowledge petal would be the most difficult to unfold. So I am trying to look at this, and we have a huge hint here in the fact that Venus, which is a manasic planet and also a love planet, and is a plexus planet, I think ...

Delta: Why, it could be the heart chakra of the solar system.

Alpha: Or, it could be except you better watch out for Jupiter. And there is a place elsewhere … where Venus has a place within the logoic quaternary.

Delta: The heart chakra is part of the lower four.

Beta: No ... it’s found on the three higher subplanes usually, the head, heart and throat on the three higher. And then all the rest of the chakras on the fourth subplane.

Delta: Well it won’t be the lower quaternary then. The solar plexus ...

Alpha: Is it sub-diaphragmatic?

Beta: Yeah. well ... it would be the standard four without the spleen, maybe. Or you ...

Alpha: Well the heart would be included in that. You see the ...

Beta: No, actually you know in that chart on the egoic lotus the heart is not included, the spleen is substituted.

Alpha: That is true the heart is raised to a different level right? In other words the heart is always raised to kind of a second ether position, right?

Beta: Yeah, head-heart, for undeveloped people, are always ruled by a sacred planet, and all the other chakras by non-sacred (in Esoteric Astrology)

Alpha: That is right. No ... the heart is sometimes ruled by the sun (in Esoteric Astrology) hence, Sun—personality connection.

Delta: Well, he does say somewhere in Esoteric Astrology that the third ray is the personality ruler for people who are taking initiation. They are all under the third ray pretty much … or Saturn associated.

Beta: Venus holds place in the lower quaternary ... page 300 Cosmic Fire. Let me mention this, Heavenly Men refers to the interaction of Buddhi and Manas in terms of the soul. Manasaputra is more than mental. But it can also be considered the soul. But from the mental side. But this quote mentions the Heavenly Men. The Heavenly Men is composed of three types of lives, one making up the permanent atoms, one making up the petal substance, and one making up the three central buds. The jewel is buddhi. You could call the lives Manasadevas, Agnishvattas and Manasaputras … but ... I think the more technical name for them is maybe Solar Lord, Angels and pitris.

Alpha: OK ... slow enough so we can catch it.

Beta: So, the three solar pitris would be associated with the permanent atoms. The solar angels would be petal substance. And the solar lords the three bud petals.

Alpha: OK You are in the body of the Heavenly Man. You are in the egoic [lotus or body] of the Planetary Logos right now?

Beta: Right. And the Heavenly Man is the soul aspect.

Alpha: And you are now mentioning what we normally call generically solar angels, and you are saying that solar pitris are permanent atoms within the egoic body of a Planetary Logos?

Beta: Well they are fiery units of hosts of entities that form our egoic vehicles. And we are ....and for most of average humanity we become solar pitris later in evolution ....unless we.... you know ...transfer..

Alpha: OK. You see you make differentiations where normally they are not made. You are saying solar pitris are the third aspect of the Heavenly Man? (I just want to repeat so that we understand.) That solar angels are the petal substance within the petals of a Heavenly Man … second aspect. And Solar Lords are the three interior bud petals.

Beta: Right, associated with Manasadevas, rather than the Agnishvattas.

Alpha: Now what are Agnishvattas in this?

Beta: Associated with the petals. They actually form petals out of ahamkara … (they co-ordinate buddhi.)

Alpha: So Agnishvattas are solar angels?

Beta: They are associated with solar angels. I can’t figure out whether there are different terms used for different enquiries ... or if there are different terms because they are different entities.

Alpha: I have always equated Agnishvattas and solar angels.

Beta: Agnishvattas, probably the cosmic name; Solar angel is the solar name. Manasadeva is a cosmic name. I am pretty sure.

Alpha: Well, what does that mean?

Beta: The Manasadeva would be the solar lords as they relate to the cosmic level, in a planetary or solar constitution. But the Solar Lord would be the name we use for humans, related to humans. As the son, there would be sons of god, sons of wisdom, sons of mind ...

Alpha: Sons of god ... sons of wisdom ... sons of mind. And who would be this, solar lords, solar angels and solar pitris? Sons of god ...sons of wisdom ...sons of mind. And then you have a lower parallel here with three types of devas that compose the human etheric body ... and the human egoic lotus.

Beta: Yeah, which would be their cosmic names, the Manasadevas, the Agnishvattas Pitris, and the Manasaputras … inherited from the previous solar system.

Alpha: OK. now ... we have just been in the causal body of a Heavenly Man. Now my question was if we come down to the causal body of a man,what are the names of the three orders of lives in the causal body of a man?

Beta: For humans they have a cosmic set of names ...

Alpha: Why should they if they are so low have a cosmic set?

Beta: So that you can see how the human constitution fits into the planetary and solar. And also they have lives of their own that are not related to the human hierarchy or human ...

Gamma: What means that some of these entities are permanent atoms. And those are gods for us, you know. They are permanent atoms on a very high level.

Alpha: Yeah. What is the difference between a lunar lord and a permanent atom?

Beta: Well, it’s true, the mystery of the lower five and the higher five, yeah.

Alpha: Well let’s make sure that we haven’t hit a dead end here. … You started to give an exposition. We haven’t stopped you otherwise we are not going to understand a thing.

Beta: Right. In the quotation from page 300, she introduces this little section on the progress of development of the Heavenly Men, which means the soul aspect. Then she talks about Venus and Earth, and Venus and Earth are of course the soul and personality, and then she goes down and when she talks about the quaternary she says the Lord of Venus holds place in the lower quaternary and not the Angel of Venus or the Pitris of Venus or the Heavenly Man of Venus or the Planetary Logos or the scheme, or anything like that.

Alpha: Is it possible to over differentiate?

Beta: You can. I just wanted to make that point. I don’t know if it is relevant or not. You are right. I only make that fine point for inquiry’s sake because it is so significant the Venus is placed in the logoic quaternary. But if she says the logoic quaternary … just with this one sentence, it could be the higher quaternary. But I think she actually goes on and says lower. That is why everyone is surprised by that statement.

Alpha: Well, the point is, Venus is not as advanced a being though it is farther developed than some of the superior planets. And there is a peculiar reference in Esoteric Astrology which connects Earth with the etheric body. So, I am just wondering whether Earth may hold a pranic place. In other words, you have Venus—solar plexus; Earth—Spleen; Mars—sacral centre; and Pluto—base of the spine. Now I know that there is another way to look at this where Earth is the base of the spine.

Beta: In incarnation, perhaps. By virtue of taking incarnation.

Alpha: Un-haa. The question is, in the logoic lower quaternary should we have any other planets than those that we just mentioned?

Delta: Who did we mention? Earth, Pluto, Venus and Mars. Venus being the only sacred planet although Pluto is mentioned as a sacred planet.

Alpha: Pluto is mentioned as a sacred planet. Can you tell me where that is?

Delta: … it mentions the triangle of Leo-Pluto-and whatever.

Alpha: And I don’t want to throw us off on a search.

Beta: And there is an interesting thing about that, if it is the base of the spine that’s not a contradiction in that, in terms of the one chakra, that one exception. Because the base of the chakra and kundalini is always a spark of cosmic buddhi. Buddhi is always a higher vibration. The base chakra is formed of ...

Gamma: ... of buddhi ... that is why you have Neptune there.

Beta: Yeah. You have a direct line straight down the sutratma. Down into the base chakra. That is why it is never awake until the very end. It would destroy the whole system.

Alpha: Because this is a spark of the cosmic buddhi it would destroy the whole system?

Alpha: OK. Now ... hold on, we are in an interesting field here and we are going back and forth between the human chakra system and the systemic chakra system.

Delta: Pluto is mentioned as a sacred planet on page 416 Esoteric Astrology. It just simply says, he is talking about important cosmic triangles. At the bottom of the page “Connected with this major triangle” (the Great Bear, Sirius, Pleiades.) “... and affecting powerfully our entire solar system is a triple inter-relation of great interest, which has a special and peculiar relation to humanity. This triangle of forces relates one of these major constellations, one of the zodiacal signs and one of the sacred planets within our solar system.” The second triangle mentioned is The Great Bear, Aries, Pluto.

Alpha: Now ... let me mention a contradiction in which Mars is the alter ego of Pluto and Venus is the alter ego of Earth.

Beta: Yeah. That is so beautiful.

Alpha: Yeah. It fits nicely except the word alter ego implies that the first named planet is the superior one to the second named planet. Mars is the alter ego of Pluto and Venus is the alter ego of Earth.

Beta: Interesting. If Pluto is a sacred planet (and it is questionably a sacred planet) then she says it is non sacred and sacred at the same time … for a reason.

Gamma: I can remember another place when she talks of Pluto as a sacred planet. …

Beta: Well then this fits in exactly with what Gamma was saying, that the more highly evolved planets, the more sacred, may evolve later … May evolve later at this particular time it develops the very last.

Alpha: Um-haa. So part of our problem may be looking at Pluto, that it is in a state of undevelopment though it is potentially a high being.

Beta: And it is the bringer of enlightenment, strangely.

Alpha: And the healer. … but, there is one problem with it. Mars is definitely not sacred but it is put somehow in a superior position to Pluto. Does this mean strictly developmentally rather than in terms of its....

Beta: I think it has to be because when it speaks about that it speaks about Mars and Pluto, it can be associated with that section where entities from Mercury will come and Earth will be close to people from Mars …

Gamma: You never know what is the host. You never know if they come here to help or they are here cause they can be helped.

Beta: They need a battle ground. And Earth is traditionally a battlefield.

Alpha: But it won’t be after the fifth round. At a certain point and a number of entities I think will be sent to Mars. … We know not only will earth receive entities at a certain point, which is not the judgment day … I think Earth will become a sacred planet in our fifth round of this chain, roughly, and that 2/5 will be sent to Mars which will still be a non sacred planet.

Delta: He says Earth, by the way, is a sacred planet, that it has already become sacred on the higher levels.

Alpha: Yes. OK, so now we are in the logoic quaternary and we have established that Pluto may be more sacred than we think.

Beta: And the Earth.

Alpha: And the Earth is also sacred. And both Pluto and the Earth are contending for the base of the spine? Though it would be very difficult to place Pluto in the place of the spleen whereas Earth could be easily placed in the spleen because it is the whole vitality aspect. … although Mars is kundalini ‘latent’ it still should not be placed other than in the sacral, I think. It could be placed in the solar plexus, but then Venus holds place within the Logioc lower quaternary. Venus is also the home of the planetary logos of the sixth ray.

Beta: It is also the the fifth kumara … lower … and in some sense is accounted.

Alpha: And when you say kumara, you mean divine kumara, solar systemic kumara? Kumara is a planetary logos.

Beta: I haven’t sorted that out yet, its function is as a great clearing house.

Alpha: ... the solar plexus; Venus is a great clearing house?

Beta: Well, I believe its working as the fifth kumara counting down. You count down from the third ray and the seventh ray is the fifth kumara. … the third ray is always a clearing house for the lower four rays. The fifth is peculiarly focused in our system; there is a focus on the fifth ray. I haven’t clarified or verbalized that clearly enough.

Alpha: The fifth ray is a being of the intensest light and is the most highly developed of the ray lords and … Venus is the most developed of the planetary logoi, so those two things fit together. The ray lord, which is the most developed, and Venus which is the most unfolded. And a being of the intensest luminosity which is also fits with Venus, for our purposes is the most luminous.

Gamma: And what is (inaudible) brother Sirius.

Alpha: Brother from Sirius. Of course. Really, the ray lords cannot simply be veils for an aspect of the planetary logos, they have to be higher than that. I mean, ray lords have to be almost like the seven spirits before the throne in the cosmic sense. We don’t want to get too much into that.

Delta: .... (inaudible) says so, we are tentatively proposing that Pluto is the base of the spine. But if Earth is the spleen and ... Mars is sacral and Venus is the solar plexus.

Alpha: There is reason to put Venus in the solar plexus. What is interesting too is the number, it’s the tenth hierarchy. Yeah. The tenth hierarchy is ruled by Venus and there are ten petals in the solar plexus. There is a correspondence there.

Gamma: Are we getting close to Makara?

Alpha: Yes. That is the Makara aspect again. Just continuing the idea so we can see what is unfolded, what is not, we’ll decide whether Venus is not as advanced a being as Saturn or Jupiter but is unfolded further …

Beta: Um-hmm. I would accept that, yes.

Alpha: You see in the same way that our sun does not hold the highest place, our sun itself is in the lower quaternary of its system of suns, even through it is a heart centre.

Delta: Also, by analogy, he says that the vegetable kingdom of all the kingdoms on the Earth is the most advanced, given that the possibility that could have been achieved, yet they are not as advanced as the animal kingdom.

Alpha: And it is correlated with Venus, the vegetable kingdom is correlated with Venus and it is the most advanced. Bu the way, the vegetable kingdom particularly is coming in under ray six. And it also has a four and a two with it.

Delta: That is why it is the most advanced.

Beta: Jupiter is coming in the on round six … or scheme six.

Alpha: Well, it is third chain, fourth globe. Now what do you mean?

Beta: I am not sure. If it came in on round six perhaps if it was in the fifth cycle then it could liberate Makara, it could be a fivefold [sounds like-à] animal creature ...

Alpha: Yeah it could. Although it is really interesting that in the Secret Doctrine, Venus and Jupiter or [sounds like]à Brehas, Potti and Sucra, are talked about as opponents. Because, what is really interesting there is there that the [sounds likeà] Brehas, Potti or Jupiter represents conventional worship and Churchianity and all that kind of stuff, dogmatism, and Venus represents Luciferian activity. Of course, if Jupiter is less advanced presently, than Venus, or less unfolded than Venus, the lower Jupiterian impulse could be coming in whereas the higher Venusean impulse would be coming in. Anyway, I look at Jupiter as the heart centre of our solar system.

Gamma: I am still stuck on this egoic lotus of man you know. It should be the same for the solar egoic lotus.

Alpha: He says twelve petals which is interesting. Beta, did you reconcile that? We have a twelve petalled egoic lotus on the cosmic mental plane for the solar logos, and we have somehow still seven tiers with ‘x’ number of petals per tier, plus a threefold flame. We have an apparent contradiction.

Delta: There is something on 1018, which has

Gamma: We don’t have seven tiers.

Alpha: No. We don’t have seven tiers.

Beta: How many kumaras are awake now, locally we could have four tiers with only three tiers awakened with petals on them. …

Gamma: Yeah, the ‘kumara’ is very close to ‘Makara’.

Alpha: ... it is all likely in those books .... (laughter) …

And what we were just talking about before Delta gets into his thing here was that on page 47 of Esoteric Astrology we read about the logoic twelve petalled egoic lotus on the cosmic mental plane. It is twelve petalled here, and then elsewhere … Seven tiers, on page 1161. …

Anyway, an apparent problem arises there in the numbering. But, lest we think that we have easily understood the numbers of any of the chakras, unless I am much mistaken, there is a place in Cosmic Fire where even our humble our base of the spine centre has sixteen petals. … OK, let’s not look for it now. Anyway, there are sixteen petals, and are those sixteen additional to the four or subsidiary to the four. I think they are subsidiary to the four.

Delta: 1164 gives it as sixteen petals … near the bottom: “It is, for instance, correct to say that the planetary scheme corresponding to the microcosmic base of the spine is a fourfold lotus and has, therefore, four petals. There are four outstanding petals of a peculiar hue, but there are three of a secondary colour, and nine of a tertiary nature.”

Alpha: Three and nine are twelve, plus four are sixteen. “To the student with intuition” the hint will solve all of Cosmic Fire! “To students with intuition the hint here conveyed may reveal the name of the planet, and the nature of its evolution.”

Now, does this sixteen have to do with man or just with the planetary logos? Why is this? Let’s read this again. This is very important. “Each of these planetary schemes can be seen as a lotus having seven major petals, of which each chain forms one petal, but having also subsidiary petals of a secondary color according to the nature and karma of the Entity concerned. It is in the enumeration of these solar lotuses that occult students go astray.”

Delta: So lotuses are the same as planetary schemes?

Alpha: Yeah. And we are just about to go astray. “It is, for instance, correct to say that the planetary scheme corresponding to the microcosmic base of the spine is a fourfold lotus and has, therefore, four petals. There are four outstanding petals of a peculiar hue, but there are three of a secondary colour, and nine of a tertiary nature. (To students with intuition the hint here conveyed may reveal the name of the planet, and the nature of its evolution). Each of these solar lotuses, or planetary schemes, unfolds in three great stages of activity, in each one of which one of the three types of energy dominates.”

This is exactly on the subject ... isn’t it?

Beta: ... that we were talking about, yes. “As the unfolding proceeds, the vibratory activity increases, and the appearance of the manifesting activity changes.

a. The motion of the lotus or wheel for a long time is simply that of a slow revolution.”

b. Later, for a still vaster period, each petal revolves within the greater whole, and at an angle different to that of the whole revolution.”

c. Finally, these two activities are increased by the appearance of a form of energy which, originating from the centre, pulsates so powerfully that it produces what look to be streams of energy passing backwards and forwards from the centre to the periphery.

d. When these three are working in unison, the effect is wonderful in the extreme, and impossible for the eye to follow, the mind of man to conceive, or the pen to express in words. It is this stage, macrocosmic and microcosmic, which constitutes the different grades of alignment, for it must never be forgotten by students that all that manifests is a sphere, and alignment really consists in unimpeded communication between the heart of the sphere and the periphery or the bound of the influence of the dynamic will and the centre.

What new and wonderful definition of alignment.

Delta: By the way, I would like to go to another page and add some more petals, page 1028 Cosmic Fire. And this is also quoted on page 647 Esoteric Astrology. Says: “The solar system is literally a twelve-petalled lotus, each petal being formed of forty-nine lesser petals.”

By the way, as an aside, twelve times forty-nine is 588, and the synoptic period between Earth and Venus when they come together is every 584 days, so there might be some connection between the Earth and Venus if days equal petals like, one day for each petal. … That cycle was of total importance in the Mayan culture. And they instead of using this mean average of 584, the Mayan’s used 580 + 587 + 580 + 587. So here we have a couple of 587’s which are almost exactly 588. Anyway just a mathematical quick break aside.

Alpha: OK. You know what just happened here, we just read that a chain is a petal? Page 1165, a chain is a petal.

Delta: “Each of these planetary schemes can be seen as a lotus having seven major petals, of which each chain forms one petal ...”

Alpha: OK. ... chains as petals … And each petal is a scheme. Each petal in the solar system is a scheme. Is this correct? The planetary lotuses differ in each scheme. … Each solar petal is a scheme.

Beta: Each scheme has seven petals, each composed of seven chains.

Alpha: … but the number is 49. Each petal has 49 lesser petals. Now ... on page 1164, each of these planetary schemes can be seen as a lotus having seven major petals (which is a problem, but we will talk about it later), of which each chain forms one petal, but also having subsidiary petals of a secondary colour according to the nature and the karma of the entity concerned. And such subsidiary petals might be globes; they are not chains. Now what I am trying to get at, if I go to page 1018, we have the solar system as a vast blue lotus, a twelve petalled lotus...

Beta: ... not a seven petalled lotus.

Alpha: No, not a seven petalled lotus, but twelve. And I am looking at twelve planetary schemes. I am hoping to find that twelve planetary schemes that equate to each one of the petals of the solar system lotus.

Delta: Do we want the names of the twelve planetary schemes?

Alpha: And we are working on that right now. However, now I want to say that each one of those twelve has a subsidiary forty-nine. So, 12 x 49 is 588, how much is 588 x 12? I don’t have my calculator with me so, Well, you can do 600 x 12 = 7200 and subtract 12 x 12 or 144. So, 7056. Maybe.

Alpha: OK, 7056 is the number of lesser petals in a solar system of the kind they are talking about here. Now, how many of them are chains? We have just learned that each planetary scheme has seven major petals which are chains. So, if we have twelve schemes with seven chains apiece, there are 84 chains. Minimum. I can also find that reference, if pressed, which states there are ten chains to a scheme. Now what are we going to do with there 49 lesser petals?

Gamma: Could they be globes?

Alpha: Well, the thing is, if they are 49 they can easily be globes. But then, somehow the chains as petals are not listed. Are they? Wouldn’t it be better to say that each petal is formed of seven lesser petals and 49 still lesser petals?

Delta: In Esoteric Astrology it goes in seven’s, everything is part of seven within seven, within seven within seven.

Alpha: OK. But, he just jumped to globe level. In other words, is a petal considered a globe? Now I am on page 1018. The solar system is literally a twelve petalled lotus and I am assuming a lotus is a scheme, each petal being formed of 49 lesser petals. A scheme is formed of forty-nine globes.

Delta: Yes, I agree. So each petal is a globe. I agree with that definition.

Beta: Well, actually the solar system is a scheme. ... No, twelve petalled lotus, cause it has ten schemes.

Alpha: It has ten schemes and twelve schemes. He said there is basis for this. Remember, we read it earlier today. The Tibetan says there is basis to consider the twelve.

Beta: If these petals are schemes. The scheme is basically a replica of the system. But the scheme, we know, has seven petals, and each petal is seven chains.

Epsilon: You just said petals are globe, and you said petals are schemes.

Delta: Yeah. Each petal has seven chains. And each chain has seven globes. So, seven times seven is forty-nine.

Gamma: We are talking about subsidiary petals.

Alpha: Subsidiary petals … he says 49 subsidiary, but he left out one group of petals. Remember how we just read that there are two kinds of subsidiary petals, on page 1164: “There are four outstanding petals of a peculiar hue, but there are three of a secondary colour, and nine of a tertiary nature.” There are secondary and tertiary petals. And basically, secondary petals are on the chain level, and tertiary petals are on the globe level Only over here he didn’t bother, on page 1018 distinguishing between secondary and tertiary.

Delta: Well, let me just back track for a second and propose something else. Maybe these secondary petals refer to the different vehicles. There is a major vehicle of four petals, and lets say the mental vehicle; and then there is an astral vehicle of so many petals ...

Alpha: That is really what it boils down to anyway. Doesn’t it? A chain is essentially a function, you know it is like a vehicle, it’s the chakra. What do you mean by vehicle ... see ….

Delta: OK. So we need two simultaneous definitions. A globe and a, what are the bodies, what terms do you use exactly … a vehicle?

Alpha: OK. In other words, a petal is a vehicle. If a chain is a vehicle, and a chain is a chakra .....a chain is also a petal. Can a vehicle be a chakra?

Delta: Yeah. Cause lets say the solar plexus would be the astral vehicle. Maybe it is not that simple but basically that is the truth. …

Alpha: Lets look at man. The mental vehicle is not the chakras in the mental body. The astral vehicle is not the chakras in the astral body. So, you know, in a funny kind of way the chakras basically refer to personality, they refer to forces within the personality which are generated from the monad. We just read on page 168 or 166, that all chakras are monad generated. So they come from the first aspect of divinity. But they take their place within the third aspect of divinity, don’t they?

Gamma: But they are consciousness aspect.

Alpha: Chakras are consciousness aspect. See, here is the point I want to get at. …

Beta: Why are they consciousness. I think of chakras more as life aspect.

Alpha: Yeah. Certainly life aspect. They are life aspect reflected in form. They are life-giving as whirlpools in form.

Beta: They co-ordinate the form. … The etheric auras is only so much prana that atma can project down into the etheric body, the pranic vehicle is only that much prana that atma can project down into the etheric vehicle. That is not the same as the ____ or the etheric body ... the pranic body. It’s making a fine differentiation in terms of a different set of lower principles.

Alpha: OK. Well, where does prana come from? Is prana really atma, is that what you are saying?

Beta: No, no … the etheric body ... this is fantastic actually, because he says if we combine that ... then the etheric body is monadic, and the prana is atmic. Good god. That is incredible!

… I have to find the cite for it; it is right in the beginning here ... page 77: "Prana, or the vital principle, is the special relation of the Atma with a certain form of matter which by the relation of Atma organises and builds up as a means of having experience. This special relation constitutes the individual Prana in the individual body.”

OK. We know that prana is contained by the etheric body … and the etheric body is generated by the monad, not atma. But atma encloses the prana in a strange sense. ... or is the ...

Alpha: So, what is a simple statement that we could say ... that would give us an encapsulation of what you just discovered.

Beta: Page 168 I guess, that the monad generates the etheric energies. We don’t know ... he doesn’t explicitly state that the etheric energies were ... on 165 [Cosmic Fire] actually … the ethers of the mental body and the astral body. We don’t know if he includes that in his ethers. But they must if it descends directly down from the monad.

This is 165. “The centres in the human being deal fundamentally with the fire aspect in man, or with his divine spirit. They are definitely connected with the Monad, with the will aspect, with immortality, with existence, with the will to live, and with the inherent powers of Spirit. They are not connected with objectivity and manifestation, but with force, or the powers of the divine life.”

Alpha: OK. That is important. It is a spirit generated force.

Beta: This force originates on cosmic mental levels, from certain great foci. This is on the macrocosm, with regard to the planets. …

Alpha: But then what did you say about atma in relation to prana.

Beta: And atma is the special relation of atma with a certain form of matter by which relation atma organises and builds as a means of having experience. “This special relation constitutes the individual Prana in the individual body. The cosmic all-pervading Prana is not Prana in the gross sense, but is a name for the Brahman as the author of the individual Prana ... All beings, whether Devatas, men or animals, exist only so long as the Prana is within the body. It is the life duration of all ...”

However this is in the theosophical sense where the pranic vehicle is distinct from the etheric vehicle ... the etheric body.

Alpha: Wait a second. So the pranic vehicle, or prana as a principle is distinct from the etheric body ... but not the pranic vehicle.

Beta: ... but not the pranic vehicle. You would call that the etheric vehicle. But ...

Alpha: The vehicle is the etheric vehicle.

Beta: Yeah. But this is the idea of atma being envelope in which prana is contained. But it is not the etheric vehicle which is generated by the monad on a higher level. Evidently.

Alpha: Well, we have been taught relative to the etheric body that there is a structural etheric body and then there is ether that flows through that structured etheric body.

Beta: Right. So that must be the prana regulated by atma on the three levels because ... there you go, we have a microcosmic correspondence to the three higher subplanes of the atmic. Because the etheric body is organised in terms of the seven, well actually fourfold, four if in one of the four ethers, eh the four head centres. ... then the four chakras. Then the twelve meridians. Then the nadis network.

Alpha: OK. We are basically saying that the vehicle of prana is the etheric body itself, and is that constituted of ethers of the fourth order? In other words the structural etheric body is composed of ethers of all four orders or …

Beta: Oh, no ... because atma organises it. It is true that the higher ethers could be in latency if they are not used by a primitive native or subject ... or something.

Alpha: OK ... I just want to know what composes the structure of the etheric body. I mean, do we have ethers of how many orders composing the structure.

Beta: For unevolved men the heart and centres are ruled by sacred planets. So the ether is of a higher quality. But they’re certainly not conscious of it, they can’t utilise it, but they are regulated in the planetary constitution by sacred planets. They are kept in place in some sense. But all the lower chakras are definitely non-sacred planets, or non sacred in nature. … It must be the lower ethers.

Alpha: So, in other words, I am looking at the etheric body as a vessel. Does it change its constitution depending upon the evolvement of an individual, or are all etheric bodies composed of atomic, subatomic, super-etheric and etheric ethers?

Beta: I think they would have to be composed of all just because the monad generates its reflection right here. But of course that could be cut off by the lower animal man.

Alpha: But then prana is considered as distinct from this etheric structure?

Beta: ... in that it circulates, and is more regulated on atmic levels perhaps. That’s what seems to be the implication.

Alpha: But it still circulates within the etheric body? Is it atmically generated?

Beta: ... if we look at it in planetary constitution level then this makes a lot of sense, the Ray Lords touch down in the monadic plane, but they only individualise in the atmic plane. …

Gamma: ... something about the etheric body he said in Esoteric Psychology I, that the etheric body is the soul of the atoms.

Beta: I love that cite.

Alpha: OK. I think that is in the Hierarchies isn’t it, where he describes the seventh Creative Hierarchy? … No, a different citation but this correlates, more or less with it, doesn’t it? If I may just, I may be incorrect, but let me just see here. This is page 50 of Esoteric Astrology. So, the seventh creative hierarchy is etherically connected with the baskets of nourishment. Ah yeah: “It might be noted that the seventh hierarchy is the life or energy found at the heart of every atom. Its positive aspect.” Is not the seventh, its positive aspect. And the sixth hierarchy is the life of the forms of all etheric bodies and every tangible object. …