Fellowship of Cosmic Fire

This is the third day and we are working on the chakra system, its unfoldment in evolution and in time. We will be looking at the unfoldment of the chakras system, the unfoldment of consciousness in relation to rays and astrological factors. And looking for the simultaneous unfoldment of the egoic lotus along with the development of the chakra system.

So I think that is the place where we begin and I was going to ask Delta if he had anything to add to the first task that we are undertaking here.

Delta: Well just to recapitulate, perhaps we can discuss provisional rulerships of chakras and rulerships of petals and how that occurs and what petals correspond with what chakras and how they interact. This uses for this basis page 169 and 170 in Cosmic Fire where it lists certain major triangles. And that is repeated again on page 88 in Esoteric Astrology. So I guess the first thing we could discuss is how many petals are unfolded on which stage of the path and the rulership of those petals and which chakras is the person polarised on. …

Alpha: I am thinking that the chakras themselves at certain stages of unfoldment are themes within our range, to a degree. …

Beta: Last night we decided on three things to do today, Creative Hierarchies …

Alpha: … in the afternoon we are doing Beings, Creative Hierarchies, solidifying, man and solar logos; this morning looks like it is pretty well given to the chakra system … particularly with regard to causal body. Basically, the unfoldment of the egoic lotus is given to us and it is very good paradigm. I handed out that table which has the twelve petals of the egoic lotus and the time periods and the different astrological and rayological factors involved in each stage. (tape paused, discussing whereabouts of table).

… See we need a framework to do this. Now are you interested in a time framework? Because a time framework will tell you what chakras unfold in time and the time is determined by the periods ruled by the petals of the egoic lotus. Now the petals of the egoic lotus are found in the 820’s in Cosmic Fire, the 860’s and the 520’s. Those three references in Cosmic Fire tell you exactly what you can expect from the periods of time in which each petal unfolds. So ... now, combining this with the triangles you will have what you need I think.

Delta: Well maybe I can summarise what you put down here very succinctly, basically it is traditional that the knowledge tier is associated with the Earth signs, the love tier with the water signs, the will tier with the fire signs, and the jewel in the lotus, the final three, with the air signs. And then you made a very logical correlation also with the final jewel in the lotus with the three synthesising planets: Uranus, Neptune and Saturn. So, that makes a lot of sense.

Alpha: OK. Sure. And the thing that is important to know is what is happening in the life of man when these petals are unfolding. Now, in order to do that I consulted all the Cosmic Fire references plus these two references in Esoteric Psychology Vol. I and Vol. II, which gives the progression of human development and exactly the kind of thing that is going on at each stage. The kind of thing that is going on at each stage is correlated with planets, signs, chakra unfoldment, etc.

I think the best map is in a Treatise on Cosmic Fire, page 539 goes petal by petal. I suggest either you go petal by petal, do take care of early man. Or how do you want to just begin?

Delta: I would like to start from … the bottom up, if that is OK.

Alpha: OK. That is fine. Believe it or not, with just the first and second petal you get and awful lot of people that are on the Earth right now. … if you unfold the first three petals, you get intelligent man. ....intelligent, but not necessarily integrated. … So, are you interested in this from the bottom up considering the whole process, or only in relation to disciples and aspirants?

Delta: I am interested in the bottom up. I would like to go back to 169 in Cosmic Fire and say, for example, the pranic triangle, what planets will we associate with the shoulder centre, the centre near the diaphragm and the spleen? The spleen is probably Earth itself I would imagine.

Alpha: Well, in a way that is an Earth triangle, you know. I don’t know enough about ...

Beta: The diaphragm’s centre comes into activity at a certain stage in terms of transferring the energy, right? And is it associated with the transference of the solar plexus to the heart? I think it is. But I think is also involved with the higher transference as I recall.

Gamma: I think it’s close to the diaphragm, between the plexus and the heart. You know it is sort of a transitory centre.

Alpha: But it is not considered the higher solar plexus centre, is it?

Beta: … I don’t think it is one of the temporary centres; maybe the lower aspect of it is a temporary transferring centre and the higher is actually ...

Epsilon: What is the shoulder centre? Because he says ‘the heart between the shoulder blades’.

Gamma: This is the Vagus.

Beta: The pranic triangle.

Gamma: The shoulder centre, for me, is the Vagus centre.

Beta: The Kali chakra....

Alpha: Where is the Kali chakra?

Beta: It is just around the heart. It is associated with the Vagus, it’s eight petals.

Alpha: But it is so pranic, so Lemurian, so fundamental and of the past solar system, that it hasn’t much to do with the psychological life at all. Maybe for the healer it would be of interest.

Delta: Yeah, it would be of interest to the healers. Anyway, the correlations he gives is for the spleen, page 78 of Esoteric Astrology:

a. The spleen receiving pranic emanations from the planet on which we live and concerned with the etheric and physical bodies and their physical relation.

Then page 859 of Cosmic Fire:

“The splenic centre, being the vehicle of prana, is specially developed under evolutionary law, and its energy is not transferred to another centre, but is consciously diffused. When its correspondence in the head centre is awakened, this becomes the organ of occult healing; through it the healer (by an act of will), absorbs prana and vitality from the ethers, and then breathes it out again upon the object to be healed by an act of compassionate healing.”

Alpha: This is very important in terms of the seven head centres, and whether one of them is the spleen.

Delta: So you see why I think it is worth going through this all thoroughly, because this is such an abbreviated list of triangles here. …

Beta: … I remember in Esoteric Healing, it was associated with ray three and the Planetary Logos and energy coming directly from the Earth. … Whereas other chakras deal with energies coming directly from the sun.

Gamma: And the main energy and triangle it gives in Esoteric Healing is spleen, sacral and base of the spine, just to put some prana in the person.

Delta: What do you take as the shoulder centre. Is that the centre in the chest related to the thymus gland?

Gamma: I believe the heart between the shoulder blade is the Vagus.

Epsilon: The heart centre between the shoulder blades is the heart centre is itself.

Gamma: No. I think there is another centre which receives directly the life impulse from the monad, in which the life is anchored, and this is not the one between the shoulder blades.

Alpha: There is so called centre I the lungs which is connected with the life aspect.

Gamma: Um-hmm. That is the last one to turn off when you die.

Alpha: Yeah. So you are saying that the shoulder centre is connected with the Vagus nerve?

Gamma: It is called the Vagus centre.

Beta: The Vagus nerve.

Delta: Is this quote appropriate, page 78 of Esoteric Astrology:

“A centre in the chest related to the thymus gland. This centre becomes inactive in the advanced man but has a connection with the Vagus nerve, prior to the awakening of the heart centre.”

Delta: And then it lists another centre near the diaphragm.

Beta: Oh good, what does it say about the diaphragmatic centre?

Delta: Ah. I don’t know, because he only mentions six major triangles. I think that it would behoove us to go through these six thoroughly, but maybe you don’t think that is the right way to proceed.

Alpha: No, that is all right. It narrows it down and makes it manageable.

Gamma: I think the diaphragm is … a plexus related one. It is one which, if I remember correctly, is governed by the base of the spine.

Delta: Well. OK. We could maybe move on past this but at least we have brought it out and thought about it for a few minutes.

Alpha: Yeah. The thing is I think we should somewhat keep into the psychological life.

Delta: Yeah. I agree. At least let us just move on. At least we tried to address this in some way and we probably think that some of this is connected with the energy of the Earth itself.

Gamma: You say that the Vagus centre is eight petals?

Beta: If it the same as the yogic chakra. It is considered a major chakra by some schools. The Kali chakra.

Delta: So could we say that the pranic triangle is governed by the first petal?

Alpha: I can demonstrate that; this is the development of the human soul. Esoteric Psychology, II page 203.

1. “The souls who live but whose consciousness sleeps. These are the dormant human beings whose intelligence is of such a low order, and their awareness of themselves and of life is so dim and nebulous, that only the lowest forms of human existence come into this category. Racially, nationally, and tribally they do not exist as pure types, but occasionally such a person emerges in the slums of our great cities. They are like a "throw back" and never appear among what are called the natural savages, or the peasantry.”

And also category two.

2. “The souls who are simply aware of physical plane life and of sensation. These people are slow, inert, inarticulate, bewildered by their environment, but they are not bewildered, as are the more advanced and emotional types, by events. They have no sense of time or of purpose; they can seldom be trained along any mental line, and they very rarely exhibit skill in any direction. They can dig and carry, under direction; they eat, sleep and procreate, following the natural instincts of the animal body. Emotionally, however, they are asleep, and mentally they are totally unawakened. These too are relatively rare, though several thousands of them can be found upon our planet. They can be recognised through their complete incapacity to respond to emotional and mental training and culture.”

Gamma: Can you have someone that has no petal open?

Alpha: No. He says there are no more people who have no petals open. Now ... this goes into monadic types where he definitely gives you names for such individuals who are one petallers. Cosmic Fire 840. (And also there is a list, 822 and 855.)

Alpha: The names of the egoic lotus. Here they are: “The Bud Egos”, these no longer exist.

“Our planetary scheme, being at the midway point in its evolution, there are therefore no unopened "buds" strictly speaking. All the egoic lotuses have at least one petal open. All the lotuses are organised, but there are vast differences among those of small development, showing forth in the brilliancy of the permanent atoms, and in the stage of petal unfoldment.”

So here are the one petallers, called

“Brahmic lotuses in which the first or knowledge petal is fully unfolded. They are so called as they represent on the physical plane the fully active intelligent unity, the man of small mental development, the lowest type of workers, agriculturists, and peasants on every continent. They are also called ‘third class creators’as they express themselves only through the act of physical creation on the physical plane, and their function is largely to provide vehicles for those of their own group.”

The three of the three, right? Three sub three. By the way, they have to have the sacral centre and they have to have the base of the spine. Base of the spine, sacral and spleen. Solar plexus is not involved.

Delta: And as a system what you did with each tier with the element is you went cardinal, fixed, mutable ....so the first knowledge petal is Capricorn, the next knowledge petal is Taurus, the next knowledge petal is Virgo.

Alpha: I didn’t do that on purpose. I did it based upon the paragraphs, just petal number one and so on.

Delta: OK. You only did that for the two lower tiers.

Alpha: Yeah, it just worked out that way. I followed the paragraph. Now maybe there is a system.

Delta: I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but why wouldn’t we assign Taurus to that first one, for example.

Alpha: Well. Beause this is the school of hard knocks and Taurus has the magnetic love energy and sexuality and Venus, and is connected with desire. But the school of hard knocks in the lowest sense, the Earth bound soul is Capricorn through the breaking of the law and ensuing suffering. The price of physical ignorance is paid and knowledge is achieved. This unfoldment is brought about through physical plane experience. So I looked at certain kinds of planets that were found in relation to that experience.

Delta: Where does it say ‘through the breaking of the law’?

Alpha: This is page 539 Cosmic Fire. And all I did is translate words into astrological symbols; basically if this is heavy Saturn, heavy Capricorn ... there is ....

Delta: I agree. I was just challenging you ...

Alpha: No, no problem, there is some Taurus life in the first petal because procreation is still involved …

Delta: And we’re all thinking Saturn would be involved, and that makes a lot of sense.

Alpha: ... I have a number of planets and a reason for each one. Let’s keep it first ray, keep it simple. There is a reason for each one being there.

Beta: I find this sort of impossible to call unless all the cites are there and we can examine it ahead of time. Otherwise there is no productive discussion. So I can compare it with my own work.

Alpha: Well you don’t have to compare it with your own work, compare it later, all the citations are there on top of the page.

Beta: I am interested in utilising time constructively. That is all; I want to continue this, I probably have something to say but don’t feel I can participate much ...

Alpha: Well what we could easily do is when we read a paragraph we could ask what planet does this suggest to you?

Delta: And this is obviously Saturn, and Vulcan also to me, for the first petal.

Alpha: Yeah. So basically. All we are doing is saying that each petal is unfolding and certain kinds of things happen in the life of the primitive being in whom they are unfolding, what planetary activity does it suggest? That is all, very logical, very straight forward. It is simply translating paragraphs about an early period into planetary terminology, and then just listing them.

Beta: I disagree with your lotus names on the side, as a matter of fact. I would put those radiant lotuses of perfume and revelation, all those three on the three last, actually the three bud petals. Because, the lotuses of passion and desire are the five groups of lotuses she talks about as inherited from the previous system. (I am trying to remember, I formulated this about three different ways.)

Alpha: See, but if we jump ahead to that and don’t go petal by petal, we won’t be able to tell. See what I mean? Look. All of these you may disagree with, but what we should do is wait until we get to the unfoldment of that lotus and then we have good reason to disagree with it, see?

Beta: OK. I will review the lotus section.

Delta: I would like to cite something on the side, all through the conversation I have been emphasising more the planetary association with the rays, rather than the sign associations, and I would like to just make a note to back that up, page 1190, the petals and all, page 1191 in Cosmic Fire (Also on page 109 Esoteric Astrology):

“More attention will eventually be paid to the planetary influences, and not so much to the signs of the zodiac where the nature of an Ego is concerned. The great signs of the zodiac concern the Heavenly Man, and necessarily, therefore, the Monads of every human being. The planetary influences must be studied to find out the quality of a man's Ray, and this in the above indicated threefold manner.”

Gamma: In other places he says that according to the initiation you start to become sensitive to the signs, it is around the third initiation, isn’t it?

Alpha: Well the point is every man in the early days is going to be born in particular signs and certain signs are going to be particularly active in these early days. Probably he is born in all the signs. Some of them have the particular kind of connection with the task he is working on, and so the attempt there is to list them.

Delta: Well, maybe I am being overly practical and narrow, but the first petal of course it deals with the person’s very life and the energy to go forward. So, would someone have a life threatening crises if an extremely discordant configuration occurred in Capricorn? Not necessarily. But would somebody have a life threatening crises if an extremely discordant configuration occurred on the planet Saturn? Quite probably.

Alpha: Well. OK. I am not understanding that entirely. Capricorn is not meant to apply to individual lives. It is meant to apply to a whole cycle of lives in which a person is working in densest materiality; it is just the ‘qualitative’ statement.

Delta: But, I couldn’t really make a prediction about the first petal from Capricorn. But I could make a prediction about the first petal form Saturn. In other words, for everyone, for example, in the year 2020 (jumping ahead a little bit), Saturn and Pluto will be in Capricorn. So that is not necessarily going to affect all peoples that much or cause some to a life crises, yet, if Saturn and Pluto were conjunct in your natal chart, Pluto transited your Saturn or visa versa, there would be an enormous personal crises, dealing life-death issues.

Alpha: ... you look at what that person has to do, a petal is much more than any astrological sign. A petal is a whole phase of human life. So they are probably born in all the signs. Look at Aries connected with that first petal because it is the first sign. And Pisces is connected with it because it is ‘go forth into matter’ for the first time, and Cancer is connected with it because it is the very first incarnation ... So from the sign point of view I am just thinking you should look qualitatively at the kinds of activities that a person has to accomplish during that, and how it correlates with the lower part of certain signs.

Delta: Yeah. I can see the cycle but we had also just associated this petal with the base of the spine, the sacral and the spleen. Those would be associated with the base of the spine and the spleen and would affect your ability just to be in incarnation.

Alpha: The survival petal, and that is where Capricorn comes in.

Delta: So what I am proposing is, even though I agree with your sign correlation’s and that Aries can be associated with that petal and so forth, I don’t see a life threatening situation ensuing if Aries or Capricorn had difficult configurations in it. Yet I do see a life threatening situation perhaps ensuing if Saturn or Pluto were together in some sort ... I don’t think I am being too narrow.

Alpha: Well, but don’t forget these people are also digging, carrying ... you know … it is not all the ...

Delta: Wait ... let me drop back for a second. I am not referring only to these people because in other words all of us have that fist petal unfolded. All of us have the first petal.

Alpha: And then you bring up an interesting question. The emphasis moves on however, certain things blip into the subconsciousness and first petal activities, and we just handle them.

Delta: I agree. But, in other words, we wouldn’t just handle it if the base of the spine were suddenly violently disrupted, or the spleen centre. Normally we don’t pay any attention to that I agree, at our stage, but if suddenly there were a life threatening illness we would be paying attention.

Alpha: What you are bringing up leads us to the thought that when certain astrological configurations appear in the chart it can throw emphasis back onto a particular triangle, even though it may have long ago been passed.

Delta: Yes ... and I am suggesting that ...

Gamma: We should not forget that those petals are still active. As the higher triangles become active the lower triangles get more and more also, because a centre which starts to be more energetic energises all the centres.

Alpha: Yes. That is right. OK. But this is all a very relative kind of thing. What are you looking for, a correlation of certain planets within the triangle?

Delta: I am trying to look for pragmatic (maybe that is an illusion) planetary rulership, rather than a sign rulership … on a day-to-day level I think that it would be best to look at the planet Saturn & Vulcan (rather than the sign Capricorn and Aries).

Alpha: Okay, we don’t have to talk about signs, the point is this chart is BIG, obviously to do it right it would take a week to really look at it. So we can confine ourselves to planets. That is not a problem.

Delta: Ah. Sometimes I wouldn’t want to confine myself to planets, because I feel we have different approaches which are very complementary, you are taking the wide approach trying to bring in all the factors ... And I am trying to take a narrow approach and find the factors which are really just of overwhelming import.

Alpha: Well then from the first ray point of view if we want to look for overwhelming import, in regards to this dense materiality, Vulcan and Saturn are dense materiality … and you can’t avoid Earth, because the man is of the Earth.

Delta: So, we are pretty much agreed on the first petal and that, in a general sense, over incarnations it would be affected by all the signs but perhaps in a more immediate sense it would be affected by planets.

Alpha: Very curious thing is that from the citation you read in Treatise on White Magic, page 438.

Alpha: Yeah, we are talking about whether signs are influential in the early days of incarnation. And basically we are opting to concentrate mostly on planets, even though, strangely enough, the zodiac is considered related to the elemental kingdoms and very effective in the life of the unthinking man whose life is predictable.

Delta: So this gets back to the traditional assignment of the base of the spine chakra as the Earth. Traditional occultism.

Alpha: Ah-haa. Well, actually, the Tibetan never said so, but if you put two and two together and go by analogy you would figure it out. OK.

So we have the first petal, and the first triangle. And we realised that it is effective in all people’s lives even though not focal except when you have life or death situations and just sort of the basic instincts everybody has, basic instincts of survival, vitality, sexual instinct and inquisitiveness.

OK, so the second petal is defined on page 539 as the petal of love for the physical plane:

“It unfolds through physical relationships and the gradual growth of love from love of self to love of others.”

Well, you know (it was difficult for me to avoid from a sign point of view) the Taurus implication of physical love, the Libran implication of physical relationships (let “unbalanced fiery passion” as it is called in Libra), and the sort of love of self is kind of that Leo, you know, first glorying in your ahamkara and realising you are a separate entity, self love, and then moving into Libra. But we don’t need to discuss t hose signs so much as maybe the rulers of them.

But I will tell you what, maybe, before assigning anything to them what we should do is to continue the discussion of the kinds of people that are found at that period.

This now in that case I would point us out to is Esoteric Psychology Vol. II, page 204:

“The souls who are beginning to integrate and who are emotionally and psychically alive.”

I think that is what we are finding with the second petal.

“In them, of course, the animal nature is awake and the desire nature is becoming rampant. These people are to be found in all races to a small extent, and a number of them can be found among the negroes, which race contains a large number of those who are today relatively children.”

(This would not be considered politically correct.)

“These are child souls, and though the mental equipment is there and some of them can be trained to use it, the preponderance of the life emphasis is entirely upon physical activity as it is motivated by the desire for satisfaction of some kind, and by a shallow "wish-life" or desire nature, almost entirely oriented towards the physical life. These souls are the modern correspondences to the old Lemurian cultures.”

OK. Now there is a lot of , what would you say, Mars in that?

Delta: Why not moon in Cancer? A lot of times the moon is associated with the id. I want all this stuff.

Alpha: But even there the Moon will have to be associated with the first group as well. Cause they would have to be rock bottom incarnated types ...

Beta: So where is Jupiter. Moon. Yeah, Mars … Jupiter.

Alpha: Mars is there. The fulfilment of the desire life is there. And lower Venus is there ... lower Venus. Now, the question is, this is man controlled from the astral plane; this is before that. The triangle given is not even there. We shouldn’t be rising above the solar plexus yet.

Delta: So this petal will associate with the Lotuses of Brahman ... we will associate that with, up to the solar plexus.

Alpha: OK. But Lotuses of Brahman ... he says second petal.

“The lotuses of Brahman, in which the second petal is showing signs of opening and the second aspect in its lowest manifestation is showing signs of demonstration. They stand as representing certain groups of Egos from certain planetary schemes, notably Jupiter and Venus ...”

This is so fantastic ...

“Jupiter and Venus who are a grade higher than the class above, but which have as yet a long way to go. They are called "second class creators," for though they demonstrate on the physical plane in the act of physical creation, yet they are more swayed by love than by animal instinct as in the first case. They are to be found incarnating at this time in the Orient, particularly in India and in the Latin countries, and just lately in America.”

Delta: So, again I would see some of this as being moon, family, the clan group. You at least love those immediately next to you.

Beta: Right, are these failures from Venus?

Alpha: Ah, you know what, I don’t think these are failures, I think these are a new batch, so to speak.

Beta: I am just thinking they are from certain schemes, notable Jupiter and Venus.

Alpha: You know ... yeah, and Venus is much farther ahead on its unfoldment than Jupiter is.

Beta: And with the fourth kingdom ...

Gamma: You mean we are getting refuge from other places?

Alpha: There is a whole ecological system going on here. But I think these are very largely second ray monads. What is interesting is that you can expect, by in large, that second ray monads less developed than the third ray and on down types. And the fact that Jupiter and Venus, both of which have a strong second ray content, more or less, kind of reinforces this for me.

Beta: I would say, if they were from Jupiter they’d be sort of experimental prototypes.

Alpha: Because they haven’t gone through so far?

Beta: They had to be transferred because Jupiter is going into another cycle … or something.

Alpha: Yeah. It is certainly possible. This is not an intellectual group.

Beta: Well, we know that there are egoic incarnation cycles, and monadic incarnation cycles, and in those egoic incarnation cycles there are usually transfers from chain to chain and sometimes from scheme to scheme. There are five techniques listed for transference of egos and monads. … That is happening all the time.

Delta: So as a pragmatic procedure perhaps we could especially assign Venus to this. I agree though there are other associations but it seems there is an especial affinity with lower Venus.

Alpha: Well there is, lower Venus, but don’t forget Mars is terribly important because desire is rampant.

Beta: Yeah. Mars-Jupiter.

Delta: But Venus, the Taureans can be that way also. … Crazy with desire.

Alpha: See, the danger is, in looking for the main thing that is maybe a 90% thing, one may be cutting out seventy-five percent things.

Delta: I understand. That is why it is good to discuss this from three different points of view. But I am trying to narrow it, you are trying to widen it.

Beta: Well this is going to be pretty much relegated to somebody who wants to do a specialised study. And probably an empirical study with enormous numbers of people, because otherwise, who would be interested in this. We are not going to encounter these people in our kind of work

Delta: But could we say that if lower Venus were at times aroused in us that our second petal is sometimes activated.

Beta: Oh, I think it is wonderful. I think it is extremely productive to just discuss it. And to identify the factors.

Alpha: He he talks about stages of adaptation here. And basically, he says ...

Delta: And this also ties in with what you proposed yesterday for the solar system ... Venus ruling the solar plexus. … In other words this group with the second petal has the solar plexus in operation whereas the first group doesn’t so much.

Alpha: Let’s make a triangle for it. There is not a triangle given. But a triangle for it might be a couple of triangles for this, you know. Frankly you could look at the lower three. You could say base of the spine, sacral, solar plexus. You could forget the spleen for a minute, you know. … This love aspect triangle gives us the solar plexus, lower love aspect. … And you will notice that that is not given here. … But that is where they are.

Delta: Yeah. I agree, but is controlled by the solar plexus potential.

Alpha: ... ah, well, let me go on to the next type of people and you can decide, Delta. You see, there is a whole lot of sacral here. Remember what he said, it’s like the desire serving the sacral because the people are not yet the modern Atlanteans, and then the solar plexus would really serve as the major leading centre. Let me just read group number four, from Esoteric Psychology Vol. II. It is a short one.

“The souls who are primarily emotional. The mind nature is not functioning strongly, and only rarely does it swing into activity, and the physical body is slipping steadily into the realm of the unconscious. In every race and nation there are millions of such souls in existence. They may be regarded as the modern Atlanteans.”

So what I am suggesting is [this is more solar plexus] … and at the later phase of unfoldment petal number two group number four would come in. What I am sayingis that these petals take an awfully long time to unfold. … Much longer than the higher petals ...right?

So ... well now a funny thing happens before you get to the next petal (on the way to the farm), you get a different group that comes in, maybe from Vulcan, or from some other place, with petal three unfolded but no petal two. … You meet them all the time. And I think we should ...

Delta: Well, let’s discuss that. Let’s talk about petal three for a second [but]. I want to move this along because we are adjourning in about an hour. So we have only got a few minutes per point.

Alpha: Well OK. It is page 540 of Cosmic Fire: “The Petal of Sacrifice for the physical plane. This unfoldment is brought about through the driving force of circumstances, and not of free will.”

There is a bunch of planetary hints right there.

“It is the offering up of the physical body upon the altar of desire–low desire to begin with, but aspiration towards the end, though still desire. As man in the early stages of his evolution is polarised on the physical, much of this is undergone unconsciously and without any realisation of what is being consummated, but the result in the causal body is seen in a twofold increase of heat or of activity:

The physical permanent atom becomes radioactive or a radiant point of fire.

The lower three petals become vibrant and begin to unfold until fully developed.”

So the driving force of circumstances; you know there is Pluto in this, Saturn in this. There is Mars in this. Low desire is there. But don’t forget he begins to think at this point. That is why I looked at lower Virgo, because lower Virgo is materialistically thoughtful, in terms of an Earth sign.

Delta: How can I get my way and get what I want; a sort of shrewd type of thinking.

Alpha: Yeah. There is animal cunning here. [Yes, Taurus is more blunt] more desire, although this may take five hundred thousand years for these petals to open in some cases. And the person would experience all the different signs along the way. What do I have there in terms of planetary rulers?

Delta: Mars, Pluto, Neptune, Saturn, Mercury … I wouldn’t think mercury so much.

Alpha: Oh well the only reason I said it is because of the ruler Virgo and it is a mental petal … lower Mercury.

Delta: OK. I understand where you are coming from, but in traditional astrology the moon and Mercury rule the mind. And I think most people’s minds are still ruled by the moon. In other words, if they have an emotional aversion to something (such as astrology) I go down towards Stanford University and want to discuss astrology … even those people supposedly are on a very high Mercury level, they consider things in a detached, mental, rational fashion, and I am going to get this emotional reaction. So even those people have a certain moon component to their minds. So I would think, in other words, the moon is also fourth ray along with Mercury. I am just drawing out the moon as having an important mental component.

Beta: I see it as Mars, because Mars is actually ruling the lower mind altogether. And it is what people confuse with lower Mercury to a great extent.

Alpha: He says Mars rules the five senses and lower science.

Beta: It is the animal mind, and most people are completely stuck there. I mean the vast majority of people are totally stuck there. An enormous percentage of intellectual types; not the intelligentsia, but the intellectuals. Intellects, rank intellects in the universities. …

Delta: So do you say for this petal that Mars is the major rulership?

Alpha: Well you want to say that Mercury gets involved when I read the primary lotuses, because what happens here at the end is that a actual kind of inquisitive, functional mentality in the world is operative. … So primary lotuses would be on 841, Cosmic Fire.

“Primary lotuses. These are a group of special interest brought in under the influence of the Lord of the fifth Ray, and therefore fundamentally allied to the energy which is the special manifestation in this system and the basis of all achievement, that is, manas. They were quiescent during the Atlantean root-race but have come in during the fourth and fifth subraces of this rootrace. They are a group a good deal more advanced than the earlier classes but need much to develop the second petal. With them the first and the third petals in the first circle are opening, but the middle petal is yet shut. The middle tier also shows no signs of vitality. Owing to conditions in their emanating planet, their development has been one-sided, and hence their entering on a wave of energy into this scheme in order to "round" themselves out, as it is called. They may be seen in the purely intellectual selfish scientific type. They are responsible for much of the advanced application of mechanical science to the needs of men, and for the introduction of certain types of machinery; they work largely in connection with the energy of the mineral kingdom. By this it must be inferred that the solar Lords who embody this type are linked with a group of lunar Lords who respond magnetically to the devas of the mineral kingdom.”

“Their work for the race has at present a deleterious effect, but when the second petal is opened, the wonders then to be achieved by them in loving service along their own particular line will be one of the factors which will regenerate the fourth kingdom. They will achieve emancipation in the fifth round, four-fifths of them passing on to the Path and one-fifth set back for another cycle.”

So these are the rank intellects, to some extent.

Alpha: Yeah, the mechanical intellects.

Beta: The rank intellects certainly go up into the lotuses of passion, into the fourth petal, rather. … Knowledge petal here.

Alpha: So what is very interesting is that the majority of humanity is going to be found in the first, or knowledge tier. And that these people ... although Mars is scientific intellect ...

Delta: Why would you make it Mars-Mercury?

Alpha: Yeah. Mars is machinery; Mars is science, but you do see here how Mercury for manipulation for handiness for all kinds of things … Because what it says about Virgo is ‘let matter reign’ … that is intellectual approach to it. OK. But the interesting thing is, we’re not off the third petal, we are not even under the third petal if you follow the normal line of development, because if you read here, the lotuses of passion or desire, you will see that they don’t even have the third petal open. This is an amazing thing.

“Lotuses of passion or desire. They are so called because their fundamental nature is embodied love in some one or other form. The bulk of the Monads of Love are among this large group and they are to be seen incarnating in the bulk of the well-to-do, kindly people of the world. They are divided into five groups, of whom three individualised upon this planet, and two were the very latest to individualise upon the moon chain. They have two petals unfolded and the third is for them at this time the object of their attention. Many may succeed in unfolding it before the seventh rootrace of this round but the bulk of them will unfold it in the second rootrace of the next round, and will stand ready before the close of the round to pass on to the probationary path, having unfolded one tier of petals, and organised the second.”

Alpha: It takes so much time, yes. The bulk of nice well-to-do kindly people aren’t even going to be on the path until the next round by and large.

“All these lotuses of the first circle are divided into groups but interplay goes on between them; energy in any centre produces reflex energy in another. It must be remembered that in closing the door in Atlantean times to the animal kingdom, and the consequent temporary cessation of the forming of any more "bud lotuses" the effect was dual, in directions other than the human or the animal. It was the result of the internal decision on the part of the planetary Logos to turn His attention away from the act of creation on the systemic mental plane to the work of progressive evolution.”

Delta: So it seems that with two petals unfolded, the second petal is going to have a strong connection with the solar plexus. One through the higher part of the solar plexus in terms of more refined emotion … but minimal solar plexus response in terms of having a shrewd mind. … Whereas the other type also has solar plexus, but they have shrewd aggressive emotions and can extend mentally, or show shrewd aggressive mentality, but they haven’t developed the more refined part of the emotions in the solar plexus.

Alpha: And these are Earth humanity by and large. Just a little bit of moon chain humanity and Earth humanity. Moon chain humanity part of them may achieve participation in the path (which is where we’re interested in dealing with people) by the end of our seventh root race which is still some millions of years ahead for us. But the rest of them that are Earth humanity won’t even be reachable with this kind of material until the next round.

Delta: So do you think these beings, maybe have certain Jupiter or Neptune correspondence ...

Alpha: They have a Venus and Jupiter correspondence again I think.

Beta: They are all associated with the second ray because that is all involved with the next three petals. I would put the lotuses of passion and desire for all, as five groups would be, with petals four, five and six all ...

Alpha: In my opinion, Beta, that is too advanced because four, five and six according to what we were saying two days ago ....

Beta: I understand, it would technically be, when you look at the last three sets of lotuses there, they are basically involved with disciples and initiates. They are basically two and a half, second and a half degree.

Beta: So they have to be the last three petals before the bud petals. They would have to be associated with ...

Delta: But, it says two petals unfolded though.

Alpha: He might have left some out you know.

Beta: Hierarchy or the ego takes some interest when the fifth petal is becoming active; hierarchy doesn’t take interest in terms of working with a disciple until the sixth, usually.

Alpha: They are no where near that though.

Beta: Then, the seventh, eight, ninth, would be related to the radiant, and the perfumed and the revelationary lotuses … because when you have lotuses of passion and desire, I would not start it on ... the second petal.

Alpha: You have to do what he says; he says second petal.

Beta: But, still they represent the entire probationary group. People whose goal is probationary path.

Alpha: ... in the fifth round. The point is maybe DK left out some names of lotuses. I began to feel that he did not give us the full thing. When I read this, I felt something is missing.

Beta: ... then something is missing on the planet , if it is that too.

Alpha: Well maybe then, but see I found this to be shocking that these people have two [petals active] and are trying to become mental. I think what is appealing to them now is universal education in the world. In other words this is what is linking them onto the possibility of opening their third petal.

Beta: They are going to be around for a long time.

Alpha: A long, long time. And they will be, probably the sixth subrace, some of them are going to move more towards the path, but what did he say here, “Many may succeed in unfolding it before the seventh rootrace.” The third petal doesn’t even put a person on the path.

Beta: Do you remember that section, one of the sections on the rays where the sixth ray is considered the logoic ray, of the Logos Himself. … This is the key to that. I think it is directly associated with the lotuses of passion and desire. There is this huge group of egos dumped on the planet.

Alpha: Sure. And there is Venus again, Venus, sixth ray, home of the Planetary Logos of the Sixth Ray.

Delta: Do we agree this like higher solar plexus in a certain sense.

Alpha: I tell you what. I wouldn’t even go that far. Because, in our meditation in DINA II he gives higher solar plexus for disciplic consideration. And he says that it is normally not even out, but for those who need to transfer to the heart centre consciously. So I think the solar plexus response is a huge thing, and just beginning to move a little bit more towards love, but it is not high solar plexus by any means.

Delta: So then, basically, it would be the same general triangles of the previous group, the base of the spine, sacral, solar plexus – these are lotuses of Brahman.

Alpha: Yeah. I don’t fully understand what DK says here (page 73 of LOM): “man controlled from the astral plane .....base of spine, solar plexus, heart.” There may be lower functions in the heart that correlate with what you said, that heart is a personality type centre.

Beta: Um, he says in Telepathy [that] you can have group telepathy, heart to heart, but you can draw in a lot of negatives. Basically, the four lower ray groups in their lower correspondences.

Alpha: See, there is a little heart .....

Delta: I would like to establish a counterpoint to that. … Maybe it isn’t heart, just mostly instinct. In other words, if life is going along well for you, you’re nice to your neighbour and your neighbour is nice to you, you have what you need, you don’t have to develop your mind because there is nothing challenging you to develop your mind any maybe it isn’t so much hard, as it is common sense, I scratch your back, you scratch mine.

Beta: It is the huge majority. And when you have an entire majority agreeing that everything is going to work for us to enjoy things the way they are ....

Gamma: And I am thinking those guys who go to church, very devoted to their family emotionally, and leads to church and the Christ and stuff like that. … And they are not interested in knowing more and doing those things.

Alpha: Yeah. Well, he says the mental petal is their the object of their attention and there are all degrees of that kind of unfoldment.

Do you realise DK does not give us any group here in which one, two and three are actually unfolded? He promises that one, two, and three will become unfolded in this group (maybe by the end of the seventh root race). But, obviously, there are people, we know them, in whom one, two and three are unfolded: one, two, three, four. And no particular names for them are given.

Beta: And which are the five planetary schemes that are incarnating on the planet are they?

Alpha: OK. Which would you say are the five planetary schemes that are incarnating on our planet?

Beta: Mars is included in them at least; she just suggests that there are five incarnating and when she talks about the five sons or the mind born sons of Brahma. She doesn’t enumerate the five planets anywhere. Anyway, I have tried for years to find that out.

Alpha: We must have Mars, Jupiter and Venus we have been told, Vulcan is suggested, and maybe there are Mecurians among us.

Beta: Right. Exactly. Ah there we go. There we have got them all. … We have Earth humanity right? ah, lunar chain ...

Alpha: Now there could be others. Who knows. But ...

Beta: These are five groups ... plus Earth humanity. … But, actually, when you look at the next petal … Earth humanity could be Venus, [they] could be the lotuses of passion and desire.

Alpha: Ah-ha. Well, OK. ... you are quite right on that, but in the interest of trying to streamline this a little We are going on to, the third petal? … Right now we are finally dealing with intelligent man, but this is not yet awakened man. Let’s go on to petal number four.

“The Petal of Knowledge, for the astral plane; unfoldment is brought about by the conscious balancing of the pairs of opposites ...”

... hence Gemini and also Libra. “... and the gradual utilisation of the Law of Attraction and Repulsion.”

The rays are important. “The man passes out of the Hall of Ignorance where, from the egoic point of view, he works blindly and begins to appreciate the effects of his physical plane life ...”

That means ray five, Libra, cause and effect, etc. “... by a realisation of his essential duality he begins to comprehend causes .” Gemini, and ray five.

Delta: And this also means that a person understands the dialectical process of life and history which is a small minority.

Alpha: I am being very simplistic about this, if you can really begin to think in the third petal and you become even an intellectual in the third petal, by this [fourth] petal you can become an integrated personality. In other words, in the beginning of rays five he gives four types of elementals. And the fourth elemental is the large elemental which is the personality elemental. And I believe that this is a Cancerian petal. … So there is a lot to be said here for the idea that people can become emergent from the mass at this point.

Delta: Why not Scorpio? Scorpio, has unity of effort.

Alpha: Yeah. But you would have to look at that in context. Unity of effort. Well, in the first place because there is a tremendous struggle with spiritual and material values that occurs in the next petal and I think it is really Scorpionic.

Beta: That would be right in the middle of the second initiation ...

Alpha: ... or even the first, because he says there is a tremendous Vulcan/Pluto thing that occurs before the first initiation. That’s sort of Vulcan/Mars or Taurus/Scorpio: ‘Do I go towards the light? Do I stay in the dark?’ You know a selfish/unselfish basic discrimination.