Delta: It is hypothetical, but what is the question you are asking? What are the Ray Lords, or what are you asking?
Alpha: Well, you see how Beta brought down the seven differentiations of a Planetary Logos. He did them this way: Planetary Logos, Ray Lords, Spirits before the Throne, Heavenly Man, Divine Manasaputra, Planetary Entity, etc. And I was simply asking what is the source of these beings? I was saying, look, you have a Planetary Logos here but we all know that a Planetary Logos begins on our monadic plane. Ok? But that is not what the monad of the Planetary Logos is at all. It is just that the manifestation of a Planetary Logos somehow begins on our monadic plane. And I questioned him and asked, Why did you put it on the logoic? And he says no, I put it on the prakritic logoic, which means I put it on the cosmic logoic plane. And then I asked, Isn’t that too high?
Gamma: Oh, yeah it is too high.
Alpha: And then he says, one thing that bothers me is that the causal body of the Planetary Logos is on the third subplane of the cosmic mental, whereas the Solar Logoic causal body is on the first subplane.
… Hey, before I forget it, what about Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva? Maybe their causal bodies are upon the second? In other words you have three entities midway between the Planetary Logos and the Solar Logos. They are a trinity. Maybe their causal bodies are on the second?
Delta: So we are discussing the source of the hierarchies now, and the rays, rather than the rays and hierarchies themselves?
Alpha: Well, what we did is made a hierarchy out of the Planetary Logos’s constitution, and we made it in such a way that it should correspond to our own principles, but we are not quite sure how yet. We made a hierarchy out of that. We did not take the twelve creative hierarchies and talk about what they were. We almost started to do that when we looked at The Initiates, the Human Hierarchy, but we diverted, I think.
Delta: OK.
Epsilon: Would you be ready for a five o’clock mantrum or not?
Alpha: Would it break our train of insane thought?
Delta: No. Because we haven’t really been discussing the Hierarchies as much as we might have.
Alpha: OK. So, Delta is hoping for a shift in direction brought on by the five o’clock mantrum. It is OK. with me; OK with you, Beta?
Beta: Sure.
Alpha: In other words, Beta, I’ll tell you what, before I leave here this afternoon I would like to know your opinion of the Third Creative Hierarchy, the Second, and the First.
Beta: Ahhhh.
Alpha: I know. It is painful. But I would really like to know.
Beta: He says that they correspond somewhat to the mental, emotional and physical vibrations or purposes of the logos.
Alpha: OK, well, let’s see if we can say the five o’clock mantrum … and hope for its therapeutic effect.
(tape paused)
Epsilon: When we speak of the power of the one life ... or the love of the one soul ... at which level are we?
Delta: All levels.
Alpha: Practically speaking, planetary, but ideally, universal. That is my opinion.
Gamma: How about soul? Is that Vishnu?
Alpha: Yeah. Solar is nice. But, when you stop to think about it we are a cell within a Heavenly Man or Planetary Logos (depending upon how you want to look it). And that power of that source to a cell, I think we are an atom within the life of a Solar Logos. So it depends on what you want to invoke. … maybe it depends on how you want to think. I think most of us, practically, are trying to build the antahkarana and come into the spiritual triad which makes us part of the life of the Planetary Logos. That is practical. As far a the Solar Logos goes, it is all pervading, marvellous to contemplate, very inspirational in terms of the Gayatri, but practically our next step is to become what we are within the Planetary Logos. It is within reach if we build the antahkarana.
Yeah. OK so, look, we are attempting here to look at a couple of hierarchies ...
Delta: So we don’t want to discuss the relation between the hierarchies and the rays first?
Alpha: How do we know what it is before we define what these hierarchies are? I mean, well, we could.
Delta: Let’s define the Hierarchies then.
Alpha: OK. Well, we began by doing that. We said they are the monadic aspect.
Delta: They are the life force of a Heavenly Man in terms of a certain direction.
Alpha: OK. Are all the twelve Creative Hierarchies somehow monads within the Planetary Logos or are they extra planetary? And the question seemed to come up, will this change in another world cycle, which related them to the planets. So, are all of these lives within our Planetary Logos? That is a question.
Delta: So they don’t have to permanently be within our Planetary Logos but they are now. That is how I would think of it.
Alpha: So these are different orders of monads which are somehow contained within the body of manifestation of our Planetary Logos.
Gamma: As it evolves, the type of monad is going to be changed.
Beta: Um, and they can be switched from scheme to scheme, through their monadic cycles.
Alpha: Um-hmm. Nor do they necessarily stop on the fifth subplane, or the third subplane of the astral plane. And that is Raimo Keloharju’s whole thesis, he continues taking the hierarchies up all the subplanes until he reaches the causal body of the Planetary Logos. And somehow they will correlate all of these different types of lives. So, in other words, there is more than twelve (monads). He keeps on going subplane by subplane. Well, you know, he is third ray...
Beta: He doesn’t have traditional names for them though?
Alpha: Maybe not, or he makes them numerical.
Beta: But it is a way of examining them.
Alpha: Yeah. So, but the question is, these are planetary to you?
Beta: I think so, must be. I think these five kumaras are probably local because the five liberated hierarchies represent the five, the sum total of manas and the five kumaras, they are planetary kumaras … related to Dhyani Buddhas. But Dhyani Buddhas are planetary systems, and they … You asked about the top three planes …
Alpha: The top three hierarchies.
Beta: There is a statement that if I can find it, the first three hierarchies (between page 38 & 40 of Esoteric Astrology). Top of page 40: “The first (sixth) Hierarchy might be viewed as endeavouring to express the mental vibration of the solar Logos and the second, His emotional, or cosmic astral, nature.”
Alpha: What are the implications of that statement?
Beta & Delta: So the Burning Sons of Desire ... are related to the Second hierarchy ... on page 35 ...
Alpha: “These lives are called "the burning Sons of Desire" and were the Sons of Necessity.”
Beta: That is a qualified statement.
Delta: … involved through the sixth sphere in a sense. It doesn’t say the Sixth Hierarchy.
Alpha: No. It is all under the sixth Hierarchy.
Delta: Well, wait, it says “the first (sixth) Hierarchy has for its type of energy the first type of the sixth” … So the first Hierarchy is the sixth.
Alpha: Yeah. That is right. And that is the one called the Divine Lives.
Delta: What is wrong with that?
Beta: Look at the tabulation. On the tabulation on both of these it says the Burning sons of desire are on the second plane. … These lives are called “the burning Sons of Desire”, or were the ‘Sons of Necessity’.
Alpha: Are you saying that in fact they’re mistakenly called the “burning Sons of Desire”?
Beta: Because if they are called Sons of Necessity on the first plane ... like saying logoic.
Alpha: And then it goes on to say “burned to know” which fits right in with .... the fact that he is not saying that it is a false statement ... that they did burn to know.
Delta: They are associated with fire also ... page 35 in the comments.
Beta: “Hence do they suffer”. Well, they are called by their astral name because it is an astrally polarised Planetary Logos.
Alpha: Although they are representing the cosmic mental vibration. I mean Leo in a sense. Leo after all rules causal bodies in general, so you can see cosmic mental there. A line of cosmic will ...
Delta: Doesn’t the first house rule causal bodies?
Alpha: Yeah. And the first house rules causal bodies, and also when you look at it you see what has to build up in the fifth house is that as well. In other words Leo rules the Ahamkara principle by which the causal body is characterised. It makes sense that both the sun and Uranus …
Anyway it deserves pondering for you see it is the same name for two hierarchies, and it even makes sense in the second hierarchy too because the second hierarchy is sixth from the bottom. The first Hierarchy is sixth from the top. You know the number six characterises both of them. Desire is involved. … Maybe the mystery of the sphinx is the union of these two hierarchies. You know the Lion and the Virgin.
Beta: He says the mystery of the sphinx is not the mystery of the soul and its vehicle but the mystery of the higher mind and the lower mind.
Alpha: Well OK, true, but this would take it even higher wouldn’t it? It would take it up into a realm. I used to think … I really made a mistake here, I think … when it said that the second Hierarchy was a source of the monads themselves. Now you see ... What really threw me off here was that the monads are cells within a Heavenly Man.
Beta: Oh. My God. OK so this explains it I think, on this 1224 diagram. Yeah? The first, second and third Hierarchies are listed six, seven and one.
Alpha: In terms of forces ... (inaudible).
Beta: Yeah. However, the Hierarchy one is called six. Hierarchy two is called seven. Hierarchy three is sometimes called … it is peculiarly interesting, look closely at the second paragraph of Hierarchy two:
“This Hierarchy, which is literally the seventh, is the influx into our system of those Lives who in the first solar system remained on their own plane, being too sinless and holy to find opportunity in that very material and intellectual evolution.”
So evidently they were holdovers from the first solar system and would not, refused, to incarnate, and they came here instead.
Alpha: Uhhh, Yeah. And they can’t even incarnate now can they?
“Even in this, they will find it impossible to do more than influence the incarnating Jivas, imparting to them ability to realise the nature of group consciousness, the quality of the seven Heavenly Men, but not being able to express themselves fully. Some clues to this mystery will come if the student carefully bears in mind that in our solar system and our seven planes, we have only the physical body of the Logos, and that that physical body is a limitation of the expression of His three old nature. The first (sixth) Hierarchy might be viewed as endeavouring to express the mental vibration of the solar Logos and the second, His emotional, or cosmic astral, nature.
I am still unhappy about not knowing what it means that they are prototypes of the monads and sources of monadic life.
Gamma: Where does that say that?
Alpha: That is on page 39 … (You pointed it out to me, if you recall that!)
Delta: It says they are far higher.
Alpha: Yeah. The Manu is the prototype of the human being, so the question, it uses the word source and I cannot think but that a Heavenly Man is the source of the monad.
Beta: Or, an entity ... or something higher, uh, the Heavenly Man is the source of the monad.
Alpha: Well. Let’s put it like this, if a monad and a deva is a cell in a Heavenly Man, is the Heavenly Man the source of the monads or something else? What does it mean to be the source of a monad?
Beta: ... or the monadic host.
Alpha: The source of the monadic host, fine. But, is not a Heavenly Man the source of the monadic host? Are we the source of ourselves? What is the source of cell in our body?
Beta: Yes we are latent ... well, as monads we are latent in terms of consciousness. We have always been latent as monads, our monadic nature.
Alpha: Where did we come from?
Beta: We were in the first solar system.
Alpha: We were and of course beyond that we have always been here. But, the point is where did we come from in terms of our next immediate point of emanation above. From what were we breathed out?
Beta: I think it depends on which group we identify with.
Delta: Well, the Hierarchies are just migrating through this limited sphere. … So they must be great, just like we as the fourth creative hierarchy are the source of human beings, while at the moment we are human beings, we are ultimately far higher that that.
Alpha: Ah, right. We could be become anything. This is our present station, our dimension, our salvation.
Delta: So by analogy to this the second one is in the same situation.
Alpha: Well then what does that mean to you?
Delta: That means that, although they are occupying the place of being the monads, they ultimately have a beingness that goes way beyond that – just as we are occupying the place as being human beings but we have a beingness and destiny that goes way beyond that.
Alpha: Yeah. But don’t they have their own lives? Don’t they have their own spheres of activity? In other words, are our monads their sphere of activity? They are the prototypes, they are the source of the monadic ... see, we are somehow terrible connected to our third aspect expression. … Man as monad, egoic groups, kingdoms. So what is the same analogy to these? Are you saying that our monad host are the kingdoms of these beings?
Beta: Ahhh. Actually, this is probably another set of monads that are just higher … just higher than us. They are just another set of monads that are higher. They couldn’t incarnate last time, they tried to incarnate this time, and the key next sentence down says ... “Even in this, they will find it impossible to do more than influence the incarnating Jivas” And Jivas is a term that Blavatsky uses for monad. She uses atom for monad and the Jiva ... or spark.
Alpha: Yeah, but Jiva has more to it than just monad because it has ... It is the triad ... it is monad plus hierarchy, isn’t it?
Beta: Right ... I think so.
Alpha: Or at least atma-buddhi, or something like that.
Beta: But she uses it in a monadic sense.
Alpha: OK, this is just another type of monad, not a Planetary Logos at all. Well, you know in a way the Planetary Logos is the source of the monads. We still don’t know what it means by ‘source’.
Beta: Yeah, somehow they can’t come in. And if we know that monad cycle from scheme to scheme, our monads can be transferred from the Earth scheme to another scheme depending on the timing. And we know that these monads can come in from above as well, even a solar cycle.
Alpha: Prototypes, in other words, something the monads can become? … like the Great Bear is the prototype of the Seven Heavenly Man. Do you recall that statement? Each star in the Great Bear is associated with one of the Heavenly Men. It is its prototype. Does this mean that one day we can rise to the stature of life these beings?
Beta: I have always thought that.
Gamma: We are animated already by the life of this being.
Delta: Yes. We are that.
Beta: We are certainly, in terms of group consciousness, or our group life. But that means that we have to identify with our monads.
Alpha: Yeah. But we are not that yet, because we are looking at Hierarchies as orders of lives whose spheres of manifestation are progressive, so the sphere of manifestation of this one is so progressive that we don’t even know exactly on what plane that it is manifesting.
Beta: They can impart to us the ability to realise the nature of group consciousness and to understand the quality of the Seven Heavenly Men, somehow through the antahkarana probably, the pranas from the Heavenly Men. But this suggests this statement that telepathy takes place among the Heavenly Men on the second plane, the monadic plane …
Alpha: OK. Where are the monads of this group found? This is interesting; you realise that we are given here a table in which the human monads are located apparently on the buddhic plane. Or, are they just the fourth Creative Hierarchy. I mean, this has to be sorted out.
Beta: Yeah. That is very interesting.
Alpha: We are located right here on plane number four.
Beta: Well, from the buddhic plane we know that the human hierarchy, our future goal is to become mediators among the kingdoms, between the higher and lower kingdoms. We are also mediators planetarily as souls, so this is saying that we are mediators on a monadic plane.
Gamma: May I suggest something here? He is the prototype of the source of the monadic life. He knows just the hierarchy?
Alpha: The hierarchy is composed of our men who have, hierarchy is still the fourth hierarchy. Our hierarchy is still the fourth hierarchy, regardless of how much they have unfolded.
Gamma: What is this relationship between the hierarchy and the monad, when you have a hierarchy which is an amplified aggregate of monads?
Beta: I see this as no different than the mystery of the solar angels, because somehow the mass of humanity is supposed to become solar pitris in a future cycle. I thought I was already a solar pitris, maybe an angel, maybe a lord, and that was part of my constitution and in a way saying the same thing of the monads, that we are not the next bait, the solar pitris gave us our causal bodies on the petal substance level. …
Alpha: Let’s take a look at our Hierarchy of masters. You can’t really equate them with these higher hierarchies. They were just men a thousand or five hundred years ago. They are still part of the fourth Creative Hierarchy, no matter what initiate status they have. That is what I said earlier, doesn’t each hierarchy have its own series of initiations? You know that even the Christ at the seventh initiation is still a member of the fourth Creative Hierarchy.
But I want to point out something. We know our monads are located on the second plane, then why in the heck are they put on the fourth plane? You know this must mean that the monads of the Divine Builders are found on the cosmic astral plane. The monads are not found on the monadic plane. All of the hierarchies are monads.
Beta: That is interesting.
Alpha: You see what I am saying? I am saying here that human monads we know are located on the second place. … But they are put here on the buddhic plane for whatever reason. The monads are not there, just the field of expression is there. Therefore these beings were also monads, the second Hierarchy, are expressing on the monadic plane and hence, (like you said) animate our monads. But their monads are placed on the cosmic astral plane, must be, and so forth. In other words, what we are looking at here looks like fields of expression rather than the location of the monad. …
Gamma: Is there a place for an argument between the first aspect of a monad , the second aspect , and the third aspect of a monad? And … the buddhic aspect is a third aspect. The monad aspect is a second aspect. And the true monad is higher up?
Alpha: But it says that our monads are presently focused on the monadic plane.
Gamma: ... because we are on the second solar system.
Alpha: Yeah. But that doesn’t mean that later we as a ray of the absolute will not be focused on another.
Beta: Here is the key, this presupposes group consciousness in a sense that we are not looking at the monads as individuals. We as human monads are located on the second plane, but we can only express as a group on the buddhic plane. Our hierarchy is stuck on the Buddhic plane for considerable time. It just moved up the buddhic plane in the Second World War.
Alpha: Ah, I mean our fourth Creative Hierarchy was expressing through higher manas until the ashrams relocated on the buddhic plane. So, for some time our field of expression is on the buddhic plane. That means that these divine lives (whatever they are), which are the prototypes of our monads, are somehow energising us as monads by providing something to us on the monadic plane. We are their field of expression … but, their true monadic home has to be still higher.
Gamma: So when we can reach a monadic consciousness we will necessarily become aware of this first aspect.
Alpha: OK. But, what has to be understood is, they are monads, and we are monads, in essence we are absolutely different and absolutely identical at the same time. I don’t know if that makes sense, but the point is a monad is a monad. There is no such thing as saying they are our monads or they are monads to us. A monad is an atom, is the exact equivalent to a monad of this hierarchy or anything else. A monad is an identity, a homogeneity ...
(end of side 13a)
Alpha: See, here is the point. A monad is a ray of the absolute expressing through a particular field of prakriti and manifesting a certain type of consciousness limited by the prakriti. But the monad is the monad. It is identical with every other monad, otherwise it wouldn’t be called ‘one’. But we tend to say, ah, that thing that happens on the second plane with that vehicle is the monad ... but, it is not really.
Beta: Yeah but these are evolving monads.
Alpha: I want to say that a monad cannot evolve ... right? … on the most abstract level, ok. But a monad can travel through different phases of prakriti and experience different types of consciousness through all the ten dimensions of cosmos.
And by the way I really want to ask at some point what a dimension is. Remember on page 1084 it says the cosmos has ten dimensions: “Within the wheel, forming that wheel, are all the lesser wheels from the first to the tenth dimension.” Everything has ten. It is the master’s number. So I really want to know if there are ten cosmic planes. … What is ten to the tenth? Ten billion. OK Well, I want to go away from here not thinking that there are ten billion planes.
Gamma: Is a plane equivalent to dimension?
Alpha: One quick and unthought answer, I would say yes, a plane is equivalent to a dimension.
Gamma: So how about a subplane then? Sub-dimension?
Beta: Well look at it, in a sense before [also 1084]: “Ten million million kalpas pass, and twice ten million million Brahmic cycles and yet one hour of cosmic time is not completed.”
Alpha: Yeah. This is the paragraph I always use to give perspective to students. …
Delta: Ten levels in the triangle … the ladder of life.
Beta: But there are only six stones on the bottom. Why are there six.
Alpha: Well, there is six, but the question is, You could have done it with less than six, or more than six, it is up to you, right?
Beta: Are they shakti’s. That is only a thin correspondence; maybe it is implicit seven.
Gamma: In this you usually mention here it is the proof that the big bang will initiate a big crush.
Alpha: Yeah. The big bang, and the big crush. And in terms of space who is the greatest of all entities? we are still in an expanding universe which means that the universal logos is not yet half way through its cycle. Otherwise we would have a contracting universe wouldn’t we?
How did we get there? We want to look at these Hierarchies.
Gamma: Time and energy you know, we are not even at the beginning of our own evolution , it’s the same you know.
Alpha: But it is quite possible for little eddies and whirlpools within the big thing. They are not all doing the same thing. There are some that are at the end of their evolution and some are at the beginning, the small ones, even through the big picture is still expanding? By analogy it is correct. It only happens to be correct because you could get another solar system somewhere that was just beginning and another solar system that was ending even though the big picture is expanding.
Gamma: Unless what you say is that as the space increases time contracts, so you an have everything going together analogically.
Alpha: OK ... you know, the danger in a discussion of this nature is that we might get into philosophy!
(Laughter)
Beta: Didn’t Blavatsky say, or Bailey, that the philosophical key had already been presented and …
Alpha: Bailey said that. But the third formula is said to be the key to all philosophies. Do you know the third formula? You must. It is in DINA II. … The key to all philosophies. We have to point that out; I know you have seen it; the question is whether a person knows it is another matter. When you see it ....it’ll blow you mind.
Beta: … I haven’t gone through the results in there. I looked at and spent some time reading, but to me those are book I have just stepped into.
Epsilon: You need the booklet [Formulas, Hints, and Points]. It is gathered all together.
Gamma & Alpha: Yeah, it is very useful; Epsilon is going to lure you.
Alpha: Here it is, the key to all philosophies: page 284 & 285 of DINA II. It is so fantastic. Just to give you an idea:
1. “God IS. The Lord for aye stands firm. Being exists alone. Naught else is.
2. Time IS. Being descends to manifest. Creation is. Time then and form agree. Being and time do not agree.
3. Unity IS. The One between comes forth and knows both time and God. But time destroys that middle One and only Being IS.
4. Space IS. Time and space reverberate and veil the One who stands behind. Pure Being IS—unknown and unafraid, untouched, for aye unchanged.
5. God IS. Time, space the middle One (with form and process) go, and yet for aye remain. Pure reason then suffices.
6. Being cries forth and says: ...(untranslatable). Death crumbles all. Existence disappears, yet all for aye remains—untouched, immutable the same. God IS.”
That is the key to all philosophy. Now interestingly enough there are six schools of Indian philosophy and six statements here, in case you wanted six.
Gamma: So (inaudible) in the evolution along the big bang theory, it starts by one and finishes by total destruction, the big crush.
Alpha: Yeah. You are looking forward to that I’ll bet.
Epsilon: Alpha, maybe it would be a good time to stop.
Gamma: I think maybe now we should study the first Hierarchy.
Epsilon: Its time to go for our lunch.
Gamma: The basket of nourishment?
Alpha: The basket case is seeking nourishment?
Epsilon: There seems to be a consensus for the basket of nourishment.
Alpha: These are formulas. This is the initiatory manual so it is the ... there are six formulas for initiations, or rather between initiations, he doesn’t quite specify; he says both. See, this is ST’s [name omitted] favourite. This is what he does. Everybody has their own speciality you know.
(tape paused)
Alpha: We have a thought here. Beta just said something that should be noted before we eat. Would you repeat that Beta.
Beta: Shaktis are not rays. Rays are not energies. Energies are not forces. That is all I can say.
Alpha: Good. And now we’ll eat.
(tape paused)