Beta: The entity of which the seven Rishis are the seven head centres, has for its head centres the seven stars of the Little Dipper .... the Little Bear. …
Delta: The Little Bear is greater than the Great Bear?
Beta: ... somehow conducting, I think, vertical thread energies from something that we cannot visualise in a solar systemic, we can’t visualise in our local space. It is bringing thread energies through the Little Bear into the seven stars of the head centre of our entity which we can see. We can see seven constellations of galaxy, of galactic clusters, open clusters. We can see seven systems of there stars associated with ... names Bailey mentions. …
Gamma: First of all these seven centres, seven head centres ... what are they? They are the seven centres which are within the head centre?
Beta: Right. ... or above. The head centre is true ...
Gamma: So what is the head centre?
Beta: … it is so extremely complex, it has five eyes and then the head centre also has the three major centres. Then it has this centre at the middle. Then it has the empty hole ... the Brahmanandra ... empty hole through the middle. It has the thousand petalled lotus in the middle ... but then it has the twelve petalled lotus at the centre. Then you can arrange seven centres above .... Above the head centre, which represent in a way the soul trying to express through the physical. Then, if you count down four from the seven you have the twelve petalled heart centre as well ... with this lower reflection in twelve petals ...
Various: OK. We need a map … Could you make a drawing of that head centre? … Do you have a reference for this?
Beta: No. This is just my compilation.
Delta: While Beta is drawing I would maybe like to go back to the three and seven again. … It would seem the three aren’t fully immanent until the seven are synthesised, or fully in all the chakras, or however you want to say it. So now I’m thinking pretty much what I thought before, that the three really exist within the atomic plane. In other words, there is a full aliveness to all seven planes, all seven chakras. That the three synthesising planets become fully immanent. The upper three would be on that initial first plane.
Alpha: OK. Actually on the chart on page 344 shows the three synthesising planets, or it shows three Logoi. We have the three and the seven right there ... look down on plane seven. …
Delta: That is pretty much just what I had intuited.
Alpha: OK. Well, we are getting two different views about the substantiality of three superior planes. In other words we are saying, are there three superior planes, or are there not? We know there are three superior entities. That we know. And you are saying that basically they function through the highest of the seven?
Delta: Yeah, I am saying that from a fifth ray mental point of view. In other words, an operative tangible basis to work on. I’m not necessarily saying that what you propose is wrong without the (inaudible) planes. But I am just trying to come up with an operative definition, which may be so operative it is excluding other possibilities. So I don’t mean to do that.
Alpha: Well. I think the important thing to emerge, you know ... is the one more point of substantiation about supercosmic planes. … Blavatsky has given us one more. Everything in DK kind of points towards the possibility of supercosmic planes, but Blavatsky basically has confirmed their existence ... at least in her opinion ... on page 434 ...
Delta: Well, I agree with the supercosmic planes but that doesn’t really address the idea of the three and the seven so much. It just ... I was just trying to wrap up that one issue because ... not lets go on to others.
Epsilon: I don’t understand why those three super entities would need special planes. Couldn’t they live on the next upper plane.
Alpha: OK. Here is what I am saying: We are always told about seven entities. But then, lo and behold, there are ten. And if this works out, it always works out this way: we are told about seven sacred and yet, somehow, there are ten. And I am saying, if this works out on the level of an entity, which is the second aspect and the first combined, why can it not work out on the level of the arena through which they express themselves. In other words, how thorough-going is the ten-ness of cosmos. It seems to operate to create systems of beings that are tenfold. Why should it not create systems of prakriti that are tenfold. That is my only question. And I don’t know the answer to it ... nor will I know the answer to it.
Gamma: What you are asking is, Can you have an entity without a plane of manifestation?
Alpha: Yeah, that is right ... without a plane of manifestation appropriate to its level. That is the thing.
Delta: I think I am saying this mystically (I wish I could say it in an occult way). This deals with tetraktys. This supernal three ... the dot and the two dots perhaps reflected right into the next one, which is the three dots. And that works out with a tangible manifestation of four dots. Or, I am not sure exactly how to elucidate it but I think that tetraktys is a real key to all of this.
Alpha: I think it is. I think with the tetraktys you have, among other ways of doing it: father, son, holy ghost, mother. See, that is one way of interpreting the four that are the ten. And we will get into the tetraktys and try to take it apart. OK. But right now Beta has up here for us a kind of a diagram of head centres.
Beta: Yeah. Well it is just a synthesis of trying to understand how they all interact.
Alpha: Beta is going to talk about the head centre and its relation to the monad and manifesting body in the organisation, potential organisation or the crown centre.
Beta: These are insights that I get actually from analysing external space and trying to understand the physical systems of solar and cosmic entities ... This is really directly related to OAWNMBS, in either seven solar systems or suns, or seven constellations. And the way I was thinking of it is if we as a soul incarnate through a physical body, the physical body has seven centres down here.
I haven’t drawn in as I really should, but soul itself, if you … use the individualisation system you always place a deity or a tutelary deity on the top of the head. But if you think of the tutelary deity as basically your own soul, as the more you get into the tantric meditation and realise that the deities that you are visualising, that you are, that are giving you knowledge, are actually your own soul as well as principles outside of your soul in some sense or another. Then these would be the seven chakras, or centres, of your own soul above your head.
Alpha: Seven chakras of your own soul. You mean by that a solar angel?
Beta: Yes, to a certain extent. But we have to take into consideration the astral chakras and mental chakras. This is important too. So it becomes complex, quite complex. And this is only on the physical system, the only reflection in physical substance, I believe. I don’t believe I have even gotten to … astral or mental kamamanasic chakras but I think actually they are organised quite differently …
Alpha: And … the astral chakras could be down there too corresponding to those ... and some of the mental chakras. But you said that you have drawn seven circles there. Where are the chakras of the soul?
Beta: Well, the seven head centres above the head, not inside the head itself, physically ... or etherically. All sixteen ... sixteen tiers.
Gamma: You seem to have drawn them as ....as permanent atoms.
Beta: I think these are all related. This is the point that … dealing with this material actually steps into yoga and becomes dangerous. I just want to say that because I really want an answer ... I don’t think I can give myself an answer. I’d like to get a bit of feedback from other people in a group like this.
Alpha: Well, let’s see if we can get a soul diagram ...
Beta: … We go to the head centre. Traditionally it is called the thousand petalled lotus. We know that in the centre of the thousand petalled lotus are twelve petals of golden hue. We know that the ajna centre has ninety-six petals. (I can go to ajna in another time ... it is very complex.) But, we know there are five eyes associated ... I am just trying to draw these out and see what we can abstract from it. ... the right eye, left eye, then we have the three head centres. And I am not sure how these are related to the eyes entirely, but the eyes ....
Delta: ... excuse me. Are you saying that the three head centres are three eyes? When you say there are five eyes and ...
Beta: There are five eyes. Bailey says there are five eyes. … Let me describe what Bailey says, literally, in her way .... She says there is an eye of the soul, which is sort of associated with the Brahmarandra ... the soul looking down into the physical body. She says that it is different from the third eye ... totally different. She says also that the third eye is not the ajna centre.
So, looking at three centres in the head you have something corresponding to the pineal, the pituitary and the alta major. So you have those three physical centres in the head. But you also have, interesting enough, two eyes below and these three eyes that Bailey talks about: ajna, the third eye, and the eye of the soul. I think that probably the third eye is associated somewhat with the alta major ... the eye of the soul probably with the pineal, at some stage ... or maybe reversed.
Delta: Well, why are you calling the ajna an eye ... or are you just saying that definitionally?
Beta: I was using it definitionally. And she actually includes it in her description of the eyes ... of the three eyes headed in another section on the five eyes. They are in two different books.
Alpha: Now, one of the definitions of the third eye has been an evocation that is the etheric pineal gland coming from the interaction of the ajna, alta major and highest head centre. She talks about it as an evocation of the three ...
Beta: … the third eye.
Alpha: The third eye. Right. So where is that structurally in your map here.
Beta: I think probably this triangle here. And the eye of the soul is what look down here. …
Alpha: The third eye is an instrument which is evolved from the interaction of three chakras or three glands within the human system itself. … And the eye of the soul is the means by which the solar angel sees into the whole, through the triangle. So the third eye is the instrument, then, for the eye of the soul.
Beta: And I think she actually makes a reference. … I think she says that it is associated, perhaps, with the seven head centres looking down into the soul through the three points located in the head.
Gamma: The eyes of the soul may be a synthesis of all these seven chakras?
Beta: Yeah. Seven and seven. It could be the (inaudible) seven with the five which would make twelve. The ajna we know is passive ... for a very long time it is only used passively. And in the fifth round it supposedly an (inaudible) projected. It will be projected. It can be its projected radius ... probably too dangerous to use it projectively. But I think associated with the number twelve it is probably safe to use it projectively. Then again … you have the physical correspondences in physical etheric matter down here in the thousand petalled lotus of the twelve golden petals that may be identical with twelve petalled lotus of the seven centres above the head. But I think it is quite distinct.
We know that on the level of the head centre, what we normally consider the head centre, located right at the top of the head, is about a thousand petalled lotus, and in those thousand petals are twelve that are gold coloured ... And this can actually be related to Avalokitesvara, the thousand armed variety, or the twelve heads, which could represent the centres, and only eight arms; unfortunately, this is an interesting mystery that has never been verified. So they’re arms of activity. But the heads are twelve … the twelve petalled lotus is located in the thousand petalled lotus.
Alpha: And are there literally a thousand petals? Or is it more ... nine hundred and sixty as he seems to suggest?
Beta: Well that is associated with the ajna … Ninety-six times ten.
Alpha: Ninety-six times ten. … Ten times the ajna centre. …
Beta: In fact, that would leave forty-eight left. That’s something that needs to be pursued.
Alpha: OK. But, I just want to make sure ... you are adding additional subtle structures to the normal conception of the head centre. So every time you talk about a new thing that DK doesn’t talk about ....
Beta: No, these are things that he does talk about. [… but yes, with Avalokitesvara, that is an inference.] …
Alpha: OK. On your diagram here the eye of the soul is represented by what figure?
Beta: Oh. That would be ... Whatever it is the solar angel ... Bailey also says there are seven centres above the head … somewhere. ....
Alpha: ... but not just the seven head centres within, but it’s seven centres ‘above’ head? Because I don’t recall any reference like that. But if it does exist …
Beta: Maybe I am confusing it with Blavatsky but I doubt it.
Alpha: OK. It would be important to nail that down.
Gamma: I am writing down all the questions which we need to ...
Beta: Well … we could look at in either of two ways ... these seven I have depicted graphically as above could be collapsed down into the head centre. And then the fourth of those would be the heart, it would be the twelve petalled lotus. In that case, before it was collapsed, it could be identified with the twelve golden petalled.
Alpha: OK. Let’s stop for a second. Because now we have got two things where there used to be one. There is a twelve petalled golden lotus ...
Beta: ... in the twelve ...
Alpha: ... either nine hundred and sixty, or one thousand petlaled. But now you are talking about another twelve petalled lotus which is not the egoic vehicle. What is that?
Beta: No, it is the egoic vehicle, it is the higher ...
Alpha: OK. Now you are talking about the egoic lotus of twelve petals. I just want to make sure what the second sun is. …
Beta: These are physical correspondences. These are the seven centres above the head that organise the seven centres in the body.
Alpha: OK. And among these seven centres above the head is a central one which is twelve fold and which is the higher correspondence of the golden twelve petalled lotus in the head. … So basically it either looks like we’ve got two kinds of centres here. One is the thousand petalled lotus with the twelve petalled golden, and then above that is another sevenfold system, the centre of which is the twelve fold lotus. And this is your inference?
Beta: Right. But the causal is on the mental plane it can’t be on these physical systems. You can only have a reflection down here, because we are not even talking about astral centres necessarily although these causal centres are seven because there is a passive system tied into the third. The mental system may be different.
Alpha: You have just proposed an additional system which may be above the head centre and which is not talked about by DK.
Beta: I believe it is ... but is true we need to find a citation for that ... and I need to look...
Alpha: OK. And you are saying that this central lotus ... this central twelve petalled lotus which is in your sevenfold system above the head a reflection of the causal body, which itself is twelvefold, but is not the causal body because it is still physical – it is still etheric.
Beta: Right. And it ties in with the mental chakras in a certain way … totally different from the sevenfold system.
Alpha: ... But are the four mental chakras on the lower subplanes of the mental plane ... or maybe they are not ... maybe they are all on the lowest of the subplanes.
Beta: There is different number.
Alpha: ... not the four in this case.
Beta: ... a completely different number.
Alpha: DK gives four ... plus the mental unit.
Beta: … He made one sentence in all the books. … She talks that it is completely different … This is the thing that I worry about. I think he only mentioned it in one line, one sentence, because for someone who studied Tibetan yoga it provides an immense key. I don’t know how dangerous it is. I begin to see all kinds of things invading the territory ... of the Tibetan ... traditions that existed for very long times.
Alpha: Well, if we turn off the tape recorder and promise that we won’t say a thing can you tell us how many mental centres there are?
(tape paused)
Gamma: Page 817.
Alpha: Oh, look here. Page 823 ... that would be sufficient wouldn’t it?
Alpha: See. So, this is not what you are talking about. One, two, three, four ...
Beta: Oh, not at all. ... Isn’t that interesting, that has to be taken into consideration as well. …
Delta: I am going back to a thing we mentioned a few minutes ago which was the question of how many petals the crown chakra have. And now reading from page 168 in Cosmic Fire, page 168 number 5d: ... the very top of the head ... a centre consisting of twelve major petals of white and gold and 960 secondary petals arranged around the central twelve. This make a total of 1068 petals in the two head centres.
Alpha: Let’s see how we get that. We have 972 plus 98, or 96? 972 plus 96 gives 1068, does it not? OK. 96 are the number of the petals in the ajna centre. The 960 plus the twelve of the central lotus is 972. Add to that the 96 and you get 1068. And then, with the ajna centre it is also possible to consider that the two petals themselves must be considered ... each petal is forty-eight fold. ... so 48 and 48 are 96. But you have to consider the possibility of adding in the two petals themselves of the ajna centre. So that it is a bit like ninety-eight, which is interesting because it is two times 49 . So it looks like there is some completion there. …
Epsilon: This make a total of 1068 in the two head centres … making the one centre of 356 triplicities.
Alpha: ... but what are the 356 triplicities? What are the triplicities that he is talking about? By the way ... this number sums to fourteen ... which sums to five ... which when added together three times sums to fifteen ... which is equal to six ... As a matter of fact 1068 sums to six. Oh. My goodness, look at this … 1068 sums to 24; 10 plus 6 plus 8 = 24.. That is the Shamballic number connected with the head centre. In other words ... all of the head centres, short of the alta major centre, sum up to the number of Shamballa. …
Gamma: The alta major has twelve petals.
Alpha: Yeah. Well, then ...then what is interesting there is ... Malvin thinks it is four related to the correspondence within the head centre to the base of the spine centre and he says ... karmically related. He says the alta major centre is related to the evocation of karma so the number four would fit related to the four lords of karma and the matter aspect.
Beta: ... the kumaras.
Alpha: OK. And so Beta, let us know when you are ready. ... Is there anything further we should say? You know, this question of how to deal with the petals is mathematically interesting … just as a side line, is it possible to add together petal numbers and get some kind of numerical equivalence in other petals ... in other chakras. For instance, if one were to add together the sacral centre and the solar plexus centre you would get sixteen which is equivalent to the throat centre. Is that a legitimate method of approach? In other words can you say that there’s a higher and lower creativity involved here? That desire plus the power of the sacral centre yields a lower creativity which is the lower kind of correspondence to the creativity of the throat centre. See, there is different ways to play with the numbers of the petals in the chakra system.
Beta: I think what I am going to have to do is just say that ... the ajna is particularly interesting. Because it has ninety-six petals and that is the sum of all the lower chakras. … I think it is in Letters on Occult Meditation …
Alpha: OK. ... 4, 6, 10, 12, 16, so that is 38. See, the base of the spine is four, sacral six, solar plexus ten, heart twelve, and then sixteen. So this is 28, 38, 48 ...
Beta: ... twice forty-eight
Alpha: that’s it ... ajna centre. Twice forty-eight. So there must be two ways of using the lower centres.
Beta: Add 48 to 96 equals 144 ... times twelve.
Alpha: … So what Beta has just said here is that the sum of the lower chakras up through the throat is 48, (forgetting the spleen), and 2 times 48 is equal to 96, whch are the number of petals in the ajna centre. Add another 48 to 96 you get 144.
Beta: ... you get a triangle between the two petals of the ajna with all the centres. And that fits in to the idea of it being a controlling centre ... both for the personality and a controlling mechanism of the soul over the personality.
Alpha: Do we understand that. In other words ... the 48 on one side on the one side of the ajna ... 48 on the other and then 48 of all the petals below the ajna make it a triangle of three 48’s … which is 144, which DK calls the number of the saved. ...
Epsilon: Yeah and … in the bible there are the 144,000 …
Alpha: Yeah, who are the number of the saved. And he says that the three ciphers stand for the three aspects of the personality added on to the 144.
Gamma: ... the ajna is 96, but 48 is one side, since it is a synthetic ....those 48 must come from something else. Do they come from the higher centres by any chance?
Alpha: Or, why should one of the 48’s come from something else different from the first of the 48’s? There are 48 that have to do with form and 48 that have to do with spirit, I suppose. … For instance, in the ajna centre we are told that the black magician has developed the power of the ajna centre greatly in conjunction with the sacral centre. …
So, the question is, Which side of the ajna centre has to do with spirit and which side has to do with matter? And we get colours of yellow and red on one side and of violet and blue on the other side. And I have never been able to figure out which.... But maybe it should just be obvious. Maybe the left hand ajna centre should be related to the left.
[VSK adds what she believes is a correction: yellow and “rose”, and conjecturing is related to buddhi-astral; with the “violet” and blue relating to etheric-mental.]
various: Well, if we look at it physically it is anterior and posterior. And you know when you actually see the colours ... you know purple, and then yellow around it and they just constantly telescope between the two. The ... it sort of implies a front and back orientation. But it has to be associated with right and left. Probably with buddhi-manas. … We have the colours ... we have the answer ... buddhi-manas.... OK. ... And, and the black magician is expert in manas pure and simple. And buddhi has to be added to make the white magician. So the left hand ... now does anybody remember in the diagram in the Leadbeater book whether the left hand is the darker colours or the lighter colours? … I think it would be the dark colours. Other times when you look at it, it would be the yellow and the red. … That would be the logical, the yellow and red would be more related to the left, we have the colour of the first ray and manas, yellow. Well, that is one of the manasic colours. … I think yellow and red would be more of the black magician.
But, let me just say we now seem to have gone onto a new, discreet topic called the centres.
Alpha: We began with Beta’s description of the head centre and we’re are still in the centres. But the only thing ... that since the ajna centre is material in several senses ... namely, it defines the personality, and as well it defines the personality of the monad because it is an expression for the triad. So, in every sense we can consider the ajna centre to be more material than the head centre ... and in a way 144 is the number of those that ‘need’ saving .... in a sense. In other words, everything from six on down ... in a way ... s subatomic.
Beta: Now there we are. And the quote from Esoteric Healing, page 147-148, on the ajna centre, it’s the centre the fourth creative hierarchy of monads find expression. And here, also, this hierarchy and the fourth kingdom in nature, the human family, are fused and blended so he’s actually implying that the creative hierarchy and the kingdom, fourth kingdom are totally different. And they are only fused and blended in the ajna centre. The head centre ... ahhh ... I just read something I didn’t mean to read, but, the head centre relates the monad to the personality. The ajna related the triad.
Alpha: That is fine. That is what I was saying. That the ajna relates the triad to the personality. Ajna relates two triads. So there is a factor of ten operative here. A factor of power. … 96 is personality, and the head centre is ten times more multitudinous. So I am thinking that there is some kind of factor of ten that is operative. It is giving you a sense of magnitude of how much more powerful the head centre is than the ajna centre. And how much more powerful the soul is (or whatever you want to call it, soul/spirit), than the personality. …
Beta: Yes, its on 149. In the ajna centre again he talks about the petal composed of ninety-six lesser petals. Forty-eight plus forty-eight ... he explicitly states here. Then, he says they constitute symbolically therefore the two. Now page 150: “They constitute symbolically therefore the two arms of the cross upon which the man is crucified. (—the two petals of 48 each—) .... the two streams of energy or light placed athwart the stream of life descending form the monad to the base of the spine and passing through the head.”
Alpha: So that is the cross.
Beta: And what we have is the Tao with the 344 … So the two petals of the ajna centre represent two streams of energy or light placed athwart the stream of life descending from the monad to the base of the spine and passing through the head. So you basically have the 144 in the lower three. All seven centres sum to 48, plus the two petals, forming a Tao of those who have to be saved. If you added in another 48, I am not sure what you would get.
Alpha: Why would you have to add another 48?
Beta: ... The full cross ... but I think above ... the thousand petalled lotus really.
Alpha: What do we come to when we add all petals of the major centres? We have 960, plus 12, plus 96, plus 48. We have eight and eight is sixteen, eight, nine, seventeen, 1116, 1116. Nine. Is that legitimate to do? Let’s see. Plus four, plus spleen is six ...
Beta: Oh, divided by nine. That would be incredible.
Alpha: ... divided by nine? Could you do that? Twenty one ... two. Oh my. Oh, 124.
Beta: ... by nine?
Alpha: Yeah. If you divide the total number of petals by nine you get 124. Now let’s see if I am correct. Nine sixty plus twelve, plus ninety-six, plus forth-eight.
Epsilon: Yeah. No. 124.
Alpha: Yeah. I just want to make sure. Yes 1116, now the only thing is that out of that you are having to leave some things. …
Beta: If you divide by twelve you get 93, an odd number ... its some interesting research ... Actually what Bailey says … between these two directing eyes is to be found the ajna centre which is like a third eye or directing agent for the blended and fused energies of the personality. Related to this third eye as it wakens and comes into functioning activities will be called the eye of the soul. This is a point within the highest head centre.
Alpha: OK. Here is the eye of the soul and that is on page 571, Esoteric Healing.
Beta: ... the eye of the soul can and does transmit energy to the ajna centre and is in itself the agent before the fourth initiation of the spiritual triad.
Alpha: OK. What have we just differentiated the eye of the soul from? It’s not the third eye?
Beta: It is like the third eye. It is not. Ah ... the ajna centre is like the third eye, or directing agent ... it’s not. She makes a list at the bottom here. In the perfected man there is to be found therefore the following distributors ... or distributing agents of energy: One, the eye of the soul ... agent of the spiritual triad ... between the third and fourth initiation. Two, the third eye, agent of the soul, love ... ahh. Three, the right eye, buddhi ... distributor or buddhic. Four, the left eye ... conveyer of pure manasic energy. And then five, the ajna centre ... focusing and directing point of all of these energies. So the third eye is associated with the ajna but distinct.
Alpha: OK. So the five eyes are listed on page 571 and the triadal ... the instrument of the triad is the eye of the soul. The instrument of the soul. ...
Beta: ... functioning through the third eye.
Alpha: ... the instrument of the soul is the third eye. … The third eye is the evocation of three centres ... from DINA II … And altogether we have five eyes.
Delta: ... the eye of the soul is the eye of the spiritual triad. The third eye is the eye of the soul.
Alpha: Yes. But, the eye of the soul ... We need a location. And whereas the etheric atmosphere of the pineal gland is considered to be … the third eye. The etheric pineal gland which .... It’s got to be the conjunction between the glands … a conjunction between the three centres that are found in the head. And it is a whole magnetic aura in the centre of the head ... ah, involved with essentially six items ... making the seventh.
Beta: It’s true. It’s when those three ... the three head centres are co-ordinating ... the third eye comes into effect … But the eye of the soul can only function when they are stabilised ... when they are mastered.
Alpha: Now it says ... in White Magic that we have at a certain point a downward glancing soul ... in the beginning of the magical process, and not before. And I assume that the opening of the sixth petal of the egoic lotus signals the possibility of the downward glancing soul. In other words, the solar angel takes an interest in its ‘man’ at that point. Now, with the downward glancing soul ... is it the eye of the soul that is operative there? Is that what the solar angel is seeing through? Or is it the solar angel ... because don’t forget we just connected the eye of the soul with the spiritual triad.
Beta: Is it the solar lord?
Alpha: Is there a difference between a solar lord and a solar angel?
Beta: ... and a pitris. Yeah. I think there are, have a compilation on that; it certainly demands discussion. …
Alpha: … we better get into those differentiations at some point. … have to get Beta’s finishing of this question about the other 48, the other ajna 48. He’s saying that 48 petals in the ajna corresponds to the 48 personality-related petals in the five lower centres. And he is saying ... from some other source come 48.
Gamma: No, I don’t see that. You know ... we have shown that if 48 is a division of petals of the five centres lower than the ajna centre … the 48 must be another relation from the (inaudible). That’s what I am saying.
Alpha: I was trying to say the same thing but we don’t know. There is a problem here ... because you cannot say that the heart centre, for instance, is only a personality ... For instance, you look at the ajna centre and you say ... half of it is matter and half of it is spirit ... maybe ... and the juncture point in the centre is maybe soul ... or, from another point of view ... [interruption]