... This is just a little interlude in which we are not continuing with the question of centres of the moment. … we are going to look at a couple of points in question number one ....or it would be topic number one. But lets just ask the question of ourselves, What do we think a dimension is? Dimension. We began by discussing the planes. We talked about planes as related to the third aspect prakriti, and co-operating always with the second aspect. Now come the question ... a dimension. …
Gamma: I am not sure that we have really solved that first question because ... between the matter aspect and the consciousness aspect, the matter aspect seems to be a link to deva .... is that what you are saying? …
Alpha: It seems to me that every unit of life in cosmos has three aspects to deal with always. And I think the difference between a deva and another type of unit ... light unit ... is a question of emphasis. In other words, that devas are monads. The devas have consciousness. In other words, the devas are spirits. The devas have consciousness. But, it is particularly within the third aspect of divinity that their greatest expression is found. In other words, their bodies are such that they are differentiated from human units. They are more subtle ... pliant ... mouldable. They are no different from a man. There is not one unit of life in all of cosmos that is different from a man.
Delta: Doesn’t he though make a certain distinction saying that humanity corresponds to the chakras of the planets whereas the devas and all the other existences are more the body?
Alpha: OK. He ‘may’. But, a specific one that I just remembered is that the deva and human units correspond to the chakras ... whereas as the other forms of elemental life and maybe some of the lower devas correspond to ... But those devas that are equivalent and parallel to the human being are corresponding to the cells in a heavenly man. Now, whatever a heavenly man may be .... A heavenly man may be what is called a regent of a chain. Or, a heavenly man may be a whole planetary logos. …
Delta: Let’s go back to that page we were on in Cosmic Fire, page 860 ... Let me just put closure on this page 356 Cosmic Fire ..... the following quote: “The human and deva units on the upward arc, who are the cells in His body, go to the formation of the centres, and not to the remainder of the cellular vital substance of His vehicles.”
So, going back to the tiers of twelve petals. … let’s re-read this ....
(tape paused)
Alpha: Speaking of the egoic lotus, I ran into a statement which may correct a point of view that I was propagating. That point of view was that the first initiation could occur in relation to the opening of the fifth petal ... the latter stage. I now conclude that the entry onto the path can occur in relation to the opening of the fifth petal and that the strenuous pursuit of the path will occur in relation to the sixth petal. But that the first initiation itself might not occur until the opening of the seventh petal.
Delta: That implies the will.
Alpha: Exactly. And I could show you the reference because of which I have changed my opinion. …
Beta: That is interesting. DK also says that of the 700, 77 incarnations only take you on the probationary path. And only as far as the first five petals unfolded.
Alpha: The probationary path. And the first five petals unfolded. The 777, or the 700?
Beta: 777.
Delta: Let me ask a question. This is probably a mistaken statement so, correct me in how it is mistaken. There is one petal pretty much unfolded per root race? ... more or less.
Alpha: My impression is ... no, because the majority of well meaning men and women of today’s world ... have only the first two petals of the knowledge tier unfolded. It is as bad as that.
Delta: And not the love tier?
Alpha: Not much. Well I mean, there might be some vibration ... but I can show you the reference to the lotuses of Brahman ... and why that should be so.
Delta: I think this is a whole other topic ... elaborative of the number of petals unfolded and the indication of what level of evolution the persons ...
Alpha: OK. Well then we have to remember to come back to this because I want to demonstrate that he says point blank that it is … petals seven, eight and nine, which I used to think went much higher. I always knew that nine was equated with the third initiation but I never realised that the whole sacrifice tier equates with the initiation process and that I was forcibly impressed with on my last reading.
Delta: So could we say that initiation one would correspond with the first sacrifice petal, that initiation two ... the second, and initiation three ... the third petal. At which the point the central bud would start unfolding.
Alpha: That is how I understand it ...Ah, here it is, Let me read it on page 543 Cosmic Fire:
“The man, in terms of human endeavour, has achieved his goal. He has passed through the three Halls and in each has transferred that which he gained therein to the content of his consciousness; he has in ordered sequence developed and opened the petals of the lotus–first opening the lower three, which involves a process covering a vast period of time. Then the second series of petals are opened, during a period of time covering his participation intelligently in world affairs until he enters the spiritual kingdom at the first Initiation; and a final and briefer period wherein the three higher or inner ring of petals are developed and opened.”
Delta: That is pretty straight forward.
Alpha: That is as straight forward as it can be and I am amazed that I overlooked it. I probably overlooked it earlier because of the discussion of the importance of the fifth petal. And its connection with actual soul interaction between the personality and the soul.
Gamma: I am not sure that the ‘first’ initiation is the first ... and not the third.
Alpha: Yeah, OK. ... but the thing that diverts me from thinking that that is the case is that he talks about the man participating intelligently in world affairs and nothing spiritual at all. Where as the beginning of even he first preliminary initiation is definitely involved with years and years of pervious spiritual aspiration.
Beta: This could be when he is participating ‘intelligently’ ... instead of just participating in world affairs. But, because he said ...
(end of side 2A)
Alpha: So this is side two of tape number two. And we are for the moment continuing our discussion of the unfoldment of the egoic lotus on page 543. This not a full discussion of the egoic lotus. It s a bit of a side line. We are talking about the three inner petals ....not the synthesising petals but the sacrifice petals ...and whether in fact they correlate with the beginning of the spiritual life and the first initiation. Or whether, as earlier thought, the later stages of petal number five opening corresponds with the first preliminary initiation.
Delta: Well, what do you make of page 696 ... a paragraph that reads as follows:
“On the buddhic plane, when flashing forth at initiation, this number signifies the full development of the fifth principle or quality, the completed cycle of the Ego upon the five Rays under the Mahachohan, and the assimilation of all that is to be learned upon them, and the attainment–not only of full self-consciousness, but also of the consciousness of the group wherein a man is found. It infers the full unfoldment of five of the egoic petals, leaving four to open before the final initiation.”
Alpha: ... rereads: “On the buddhic plane, when flashing forth at initiation, this number signifies the full development of the fifth principle or quality, the completed cycle of the Ego upon the five Rays under the Mahachohan ....”
You know what is interesting here is that, in a way, only at the fourth initiation could the five rays of the Mahachohan be completed because the five rays relate to all manner of third aspect development. And you don’t even complete that until the causal body is fully developed. So this is what concerns me.
“... the five Rays under the Mahachohan, and the assimilation of all that is to be learned upon them, and the attainment–not only of full self-consciousness, but also of the consciousness of the group wherein a man is found.”
... What kind of consciousness does that require?
Beta: Well ... group consciousness to a certain extent ... but the consciousness of one’s ray.
Alpha: So, certainly ... What initiation are we talking about?
Delta: I would imagine we are talking about the second initiation when the person has a buddhic group sense. And the final initiation referred today would be the third.
Alpha: But the five pointed star does not flash forth at the second initiation. …
Beta: It can flash forth but it may not be stabilised.
Delta: In the next sentence it says that: “The five pointed star at the initiation on the mental plane flashes out above the head of the initiate. This concerns the first three initiations which are undergone in the causal vehicle.”
Alpha: That is a point. Why are we making such a thing of the five pointed star at the third initiation.
Delta: I don’t know. I am just bringing this up in terms of something I am very puzzled with.
Beta: The five pointed star is … the key note of the fifth initiation.
Alpha: ... but he differentiates between the five pointed star, the “I” in the triangle, and the face-to-faceness of the fifth initiation. Three ways of seeing the lord. Three ways of seeing Sanat Kumara. I have no problem thinking that somehow a fiveness ... which indicates the kingdom of the soul and the initiator and the power of the soul is involved at the first three initiations. That doesn’t trouble me. Even Capricorn is involved at five initiations .... as a sign. But what does trouble me is that it infers the full unfoldment (maybe the word ‘full’ is what is important) of five of the egoic petals leaving four to open before the final initiation. And I must say the word ‘final’ initiation is troubling also.
Gamma: What is a final initiation?
Epsilon: I am not clear if he speaks when he speak of those initiation if he counts from one, two, three .... or starting at three ...
Alpha: Well, none of us are clear about that.
Delta: Well, let me draw out another quote. On page 738.
“The period between egoic Cycles. Herein is hid the mystery of the 777 incarnations and concerns the relation of the unit to his group on the egoic plane, prior to the unfoldment of the fifth petal. It concerns man in the period between the savage stage and that of the disciple, when he is an average man but still in the two Halls.”
Alpha: What are the two halls ... ignorance and learning? … “It concerns man in the period between the savage stage and that of the disciple, when he is an average man but still in the two Halls.” Well, wait a second. Does it go up to the stage of disciple? Is that the idea?
Delta: I don’t know … I am just taking the 777 to be metaphoric. Seven hundred incarnations as a personality. Seventy as a soul. Seven as a monad.
Alpha: That is one way to take it but here is another way. The number of earth is 777. Now it is very interesting that maybe, in a way, these are earth incarnations and after 770 we gave to go ‘solar’ You know so 777 takes you so far but after that it is either 555 ... you know, indicating Venus perhaps ... or some number that indicates the sun and and/or Venus. So the point is this takes you up to number five. The question is, it does not look like initiations, per se, are included up to number five ... does it? From this point of view.
Beta: ... Well, there is a difference between he probationary path and accepted discipleship and I always think that probationary is being fully ‘second’, but an accepted disciple usually between ‘second and third’ ... somewhere between the two. This sort of implies that you achieve the ‘third’ after you’re completed work in the first two halls.
Alpha: I would say that that is definitely true. To me the hall of wisdom suggests the two threshold initiations and the third initiation.
Gamma: ... in the three halls?
Alpha: Well, you have ignorance, learning and wisdom.
Gamma: Yeah, and when you enter the realm what initiation do you think it would be?
Alpha: I don’t think of an initiation. I think Learning is what you would call a constructive life. In other words, let me put it like this. Perhaps Ignorance is involved very much with the first tier of petals ... just looking at it broadly. And Leaning is involved with the second tier of petals ... at least up to a certain point. And then Wisdom really involves the initiatory process.
But, I want to ask here: Prior to the unfoldment of the fifth petal (then, it concerns man in the period of 777 incarnations, up to the unfoldment of the fifth petal, “prior to the unfoldment of the fifth petal”, so, all the way until it is unfolded) “concerns man in the period between the savage stage and that of the disciple” ... where, under normal circumstances during the 777, he is “an average man but still in the two Halls.” So here is what this suggests to me ... that one can become a disciple at the end of the unfoldment of the fifth petal.
Delta: Or even before that. Let me throw out another page. 757. (The references for the fifth petal are 696, 757 and 738.) So, on 757 ... he is talking about the second method of overshadowing of the disciple:
“Second. The overshadowing of the chela during his work (such as lecturing, writing, or teaching), and his illumination for service. He will be conscious of this, though perhaps unable to explain it, and will seek more and more to be available for use, rendering himself up in utter selflessness to the inspiration of His Lord. This is effected via the chela's Ego, the force flowing through his astral permanent atom; and it is only possible when the fifth petal is unfolded.”
So, to me this would imply a second degree initiate.
Alpha: What about just plain discipleship?
Beta: That is accepted discipleship. I think that is like an extraneous factor which means you have been accepted into a group of some type or other to do some type of work. You could be at any grade. But you are at a grade sufficient to participate in that group work. And it has nothing to do with technical status. It is only practical status.
Alpha: Robert Gerrard, in his chart, suggested that accepted discipleship (whether he is correct or not correct) occurs at what he calls 1.5 ... between the first and the second initiation. Now, every one of the Tibetan’s disciples in his groups were technically considered accepted disciples and he said so in his words to LTS-K, who had not yet taken the first initiation. So this is really peculiar. He was still an accepted disciple but he had not [yet taken the first] ... He was in danger of stepping on the black path in his previous incarnation so DK was protecting him in this.
Beta: It still suggests that the first is a blind for the third initiation.
Alpha: But, he was no where near that. … He financed the work. As a third ray soul he financed the work. So DK said ... ‘we are not ungrateful’. So he said ... ‘you are being kept in this group because you need it.’
The point is simply this. That the majority of students in DK’s group were preparing for the second initiation and they were all accepted disciples. There were 2, 3, 4, or 5 preparing for the third initiation. So this brings us back to the question of when the fifth petal unfolds. Does that make a disciple of you?
Delta: Let me read just one more paragraph ... on the sixth petal. This is a pretty advanced state for the sixth petal, the same page 757; we just talked about the fifth petal ... now it is the sixth petal:
Third. The conscious co-operation of the chela is necessitated in the third method of overshadowing. In this case he will (with full knowledge of the laws of his being and nature) surrender himself and step out of his physical body, handing it over for the use of the Great Lord or one of His Masters. This is only possible in the case of a chela who has brought all the three lower bodies into alignment, and necessitates the unfolding of the sixth petal. By an act of conscious will he renders up his body, and stands aside for a specific length of time.
Gamma: To do that I think that must be another. Not everyone of this group can do that ...
Alpha: No. Cancer, Pisces, Neptune ... all these things are correlated with the number six. Mediumship. This is a very rare ... So not everybody who unfolds the sixth petal will or can do this.
Delta: But the sixth petal is the Will petal though.
Gamma: What I am saying is that you are pretty well advanced to do that.
Alpha: Well, you know ... this is how I always say it. That the sixth petal correlated with the possibility of the second initiation.
Epsilon: There is a whole paragraph … pages on initiation and the petals, at page 868. … particularly on the sixth, on page 869.
Delta: What about this simple thought. That on the third subplane from the top in the mental plane is where the knowledge petals are found, and it corresponds to the first initiation. The second subplane from the top corresponds to the love petals and second initiation. And the uppermost subplane of the mental is the will aspect corresponding to the third initiation. And once you have taken that you are already into the buddhic.
Alpha: OK. It is almost that way. I think there is a slight variation.
Beta: Well there is his statement that generally the egoic body is always found on the third subplane and it only goes up to the second at the fourth initiation, when the inner three petals (the bud petals) are about to open.
Alpha: ... I have a different reference, or a different idea ... that when the initiatory process begins, in general, the egoic lotus refocuses on the second subplane. And that when the third initiation occurs, there is, as you suggest, a refocussing on the third subplane.
Beta: He is using two and three as blinds. One, two, and three are blinds for three, four and five.
Alpha: Three, four and five of what?
Epsilon: Initiations.
Beta: Yeah. Because he was working with a large group. You couldn’t tell this person he was on the first initiation and this person is on the fourth. He had to always to keep it within one and two ... so he would say almost all his disciples were first or second degree ... and there wouldn’t be warfare.
Alpha: But, maybe they were.
Epsilon: Maybe it was three and four.
Beta: I think they were one and four myself.
(tape paused)
Alpha: … He says you are now manifesting along the line of the first ray and since the first ray represents your personality equipment that tells you that tells you something about the degree of soul influence you are experiencing. If so … the man had a first ray personality, first ray mind, first ray physical body. And he says ... the tremendous emotional stress you are going through at this time is not just the normal emotional problems of a disciple, they have to do with the fact that you are taking the second initiation. So, this was a person who lived his life feeling as through he was passing through the crucifixion.
And then, DK says we always over rate ourselves. Alice Bailey herself was an initiate of the third degree. You know, verging on the kind of renunciation that would make of her a fourth degree initiate. Blavatsky was an initiate of the fourth degree, verging on the possibility of being Master Blavatsky which Helena Roerich says she became in her next incarnation. And had since, quote/unquote, made her way to the central stronghold. So the question is this business of how people rate themselves. It is problematic.
Delta: If someone is on the buddhic plane I think of them as having some measure of the second initiation. Of course there are very advanced second degree initiates and there are very rudimentary second degree initiates. And I also can’t see how someone who was a second degree initiate would be in the middle of silly spiritual warfare.
Alpha: The second degree simple represents the point at which the spiritual will can finally dominate the chaotic emotions and idealism.
Delta: At that point ... at the second degree ... don’t you realise your unity with the one life to some real degree ... and to sit around and carry on really major disputes with others disciples ... I am not talking about someone on the left hand path ... but …
Alpha: I would say that at the second degree … because of Jupiter, Neptune and Venus precisely what you say can begin to happen. And buddhic influence upon the astral body can begin to prevail over Martian idealism. None-the-less, in the process of taking that degree, you have a tremendous warfare.
Delta: Well, there might be an upset, but I can’t imagine actually carrying on long-term warfare as a second degree initiate.
Gamma: ....with himself.
Delta: Well, with himself, yes. But not with others … cause they must realise that that person is part of the group; How can you have warfare?
Beta: It is the warfare of idealism, fanaticism.
Alpha: That is right. Piscean.
Gamma: Scorpio rising.
Alpha: That’s right. A lot of it depends not only on whether you are a second degree but what are the rays of the person taking the second degree. If the rays of the person taking the second degree are sixth ray ... this man was a sixth ray soul ... taking the second degree. That is a whole different thing. The fifth ray souls and others pass the second degree much easier, easier for the mentally polarised type. He says it is the most difficult initiation for people to pass through (at one point he says that), more difficult than the crucifixion.
Gamma: He says it is the most difficult, actually.
Delta: Well, let me repeat back what I am hearing you saying if I am understanding you correctly. That, depending on someone’s ray make up that even if they were a second degree initiate ... (which would imply some authentic buddhic plane contact and some sense of unity with the group and ashram) ... that some of these people would actually be willing to carry on long-term warfare with others in the group....?
Alpha: I am not saying that. I am saying that ... having passed the second degree (this man had not) ... having passed the second degree the sort of thing you are talking about would be much less likely because there we would be a Jupiterian, Venusian, Neptunian tranquilisation of the astral body. Idealism would be there without emotional antagonism. OK.
But how did we get on to this? …
Delta: We were taking about the blinds.
Beta: Yeah. Everyone over rates themselves. But the question remains for me ... the number of petals that are unfolded ... the tiers involved and the initiation. And that is separate from this self assessment.
Alpha: In the white magical process the soul is not interested in the personality until the fifth petal begins to stir. What I am gathering from this reading is that a disciple (on page 738) … can [still] exist after the fifth petal is unfolded. I also think that by following a sequence you will find that the first petal relates to the physicality of the person, the second petal to an embryonic love nature (which is physicalized), the third petal to the possibility of a mental apprehension of life.
Beta: These are the knowledge petals, right? … But almost everyone is brought in with two knowledge petals open. Except in the really undeveloped ...
Alpha: No. Only lunar. Only those who individualised on the moon chain are brought in that way. Because I will show you.
Beta: Are you sure? That would be astonishing.
Alpha: OK. Let me just finish, then I think I will show you. The fourth petal, to me, correlates with the integration of the personality (and there are very few personalities in the world, relatively speaking). I will give you what I think. The fifth petal at first [relates] to the achievement of personality domination, and later the tilting of the balance in a Libra-like way (since it is a Libra-Leo petal, middle point) to the unfoldment of spiritual consciousness and the possibility of stepping on the path. Because, what is the use before the fifth petal opens? It says that the soul won’t even be interested until the fifth petal has tipped the balance and then I look at the path leading up to the first initiation as being the later fifth and sixth petals. Path of aspiration and discipline ... number six, leading to application of the law of sacrifice and the possibility of taking initiations in the causal body on the mental plane because the seventh petal is now unfolding (these are the mental petals).
… I have taught it differently, frankly, I used to teach that the fifth petal itself in the later phases indicated the possibility of the first initiation, and that the sixth petal indicated the possibility of the second, and that the whole tier of mental petals involve the third initiation – culminating at petal number nine, third initiation.
Beta: That is what I always assumed myself.
Alpha: Though basically we agree, as we have petal number nine as the third initiation, we are just in disagreement as to the unfoldment in between. …
Beta: Except a disciple I always thought as 2.5.
Epsilon: You want to read page 870:
“At the stage which we are considering (that of the organisation and unfoldment of the first tier of petals), the egoic influence felt at the beginning is but small, but when the three petals become sufficiently active and alive through the energy accumulated and stored up in the ego during the activities of the personal life, a form of initiation then takes place which is a reflection (on a lower plane) of the great manasic initiations.”
Alpha: Which ever they are ...
“The energy in the outer circle of petals causes it to spring apart from the next circle, and to unfold. This threefold energy becomes interactive and a very definite stage is thus reached. This series of initiations is seldom recognised within the physical brain consciousness owing to the relatively inchoate stage of the bodies, and the unresponsiveness of the brain matter. Yet they are nevertheless initiations ...”
Epsilon: I don’t know what he means …
“... of a definite though less important character, and they involve primarily the display (within the personal life of the man) of an intelligent recognition of his group relationships on earth. This recognition is frequently selfish in character, as, for instance, that which the union worker displays, but it is indicative of group interplay.
A similar process takes place when the second circle of petals is organised and ready for unfoldment. This time the World Teacher, the Master and the Ego concerned are co-operating, for these smaller initiations deal with the love nature, with astral or emotional organisation, and with the recognition (by the man in his personal life) of some form of unselfish love, and of a love for some object, person or ideal which leads to altruistic endeavour, and to the negation of the lower self.
This brings us to the third group of petals or to the unfolding of the will or sacrifice petals, based on intelligent purpose and pure love. The force in this group calls in a different factor, that of the Manu, as well as the force of the Bodhisattva, and the desired effect is produced through the full co-operation of the fully awakened Ego, aided by his own Master (if he is evolving in a cycle wherein hierarchical effort for humanity takes the form it does in this present one), and the Manu. Eventually (after the second Initiation) the Lord of the World comes in as a factor – the Lord of world power, fully expressing itself in love.”
Beta: Initiation with a capital “I” again.
Alpha: We would have to go through the books.
Epsilon: Second Initiation ... you mean it would be the fourth?
Beta: It can’t be. It doesn’t seem possible. So much sorting needs to be done here.
Alpha: But you know this book is very bad when it comes to capitalisation.
Epsilon: Are they systematic? He says capital “I” and little ‘I’.
Beta: Well, yes ... if he says after the third circle of petals, and then he says ‘eventually’, he could mean in the far distant future. And he is saying we know that the Lord of the World comes and presided in the third, right?
Alpha: Earlier. Earlier than this if you presume the second initiation to be the fourth. It is a problem. Basically we are in agreement that the fifth petal signifies the usefulness of the personality to the soul. And that the ninth petal signifies the completion. The complete unfolding of the ninth petal signifies the completion of the third initiation which he says. So we are in agreement of those two markers. And I also feel that the fixed cross, or the possibility of stepping upon the fixed cross, may either start from number five to nine ... or number seven to nine. The fixed cross can only be activated with respect to the life if there is a spiritual intent.
Beta: Third initiation?
Alpha: No, the fixed cross is discipleship up to the third initiation and I think ...
Gamma: When it is really completed, then you take the fourth initiation.
Alpha: The forth initiation is the no man’s land. The fourth initiation is not fixed cross ... not cardinal cross. We have read that before, right?
Delta: I have been taking the third initiation as cardinal cross.
Alpha: It is too soon. He may hint at that in certain ways ... but other places he says that on the fourth initiation the man has not yet mounted the cardinal cross. … He says it is a no man’s land, fourth initiation: it is neither this or that.
Beta: … of the two wheels I always assumed that the cardinal comes in at the fifth. It is a bit vague.
Alpha: I think ... after the fourth the cardinal grows in possibility. Here is why: the first cosmic initiation is the fifth initiation. And essentially the cardinal cross is a cosmic cross. Now, here is why the fixed cross should be considered applicable until the fourth initiation …
Delta: So the fixed cross is applicable from the first initiation until the fourth.
Alpha: ... although he seems to indicate some fundamental transition towards cardinality, or towards the will ... occurs at number three [initiation]. Nevertheless the causal body is still a third aspect. From the Solar Logoic point of view the causal body is still matter and because it is matter it is still related to this fixed area of consciousness. …
… you have to compare two things. One is the Solar Logos and the other is the Planetary Logos ... or we can call them ‘Heavenly Man’ for the moment even though that may be disputed. The Solar Logos’ effectiveness ... or lowest demonstration upon the cosmic physical plane is the buddhic plane and that’s it. Anything below that for the Solar Logos is considered ‘not a principle’ ... for the Solar Logos. That is not so for the Planetary Logos. The lowest demonstration for the Planetary Logos is the higher three levels of the manasic plane.
Beta: Solar Logos’s have anchors in the manasic plane through the Planetary Logos ... indirectly. And in terms of the Solar Logos’s incarnation process.
Alpha: OK. ... if you look at the Planetary Logos as an agent of the Solar Logos you can say there are anchors. But there is a fundamental difference between these two kinds of being. And what I am trying to say is, whereas for the Planetary Logos matter is that which exists on the eighteen subplanes, for the Solar Logos matter is that which exists on the twenty-one subplanes. So in a funny kind of way the period between the third and fourth initiation is like a change over from the planetary to the solar scheme. It is like moving towards the possibility of real solar initiation. We are told that the third initiation is the first solar initiation. And in a way it is. But a man is not even a soul until the fourth initiation has taken place. He says that in DINA II, about souls who have taken the fourth initiation. In other words they are free triads, so they are souls. There is some funny kind of transition thing that goes on there between number three and four where the synthesis petals open up.
Delta: This is a little bit off the topic, but do you think that the Sidereal Zodiac comes in to play at the third initiation or the fifth? Given what you just said, in other words, when someone becomes a solar being, of course they are affected by all the stars, not just intrasolar.
Beta: I always assume third.
Alpha: Nevertheless, Blavatsky, the example of Blavatsk … [we have a tropical] reading on her, he says, ‘and you know how important Libra is in Blavatsky’s chart.’ There is no Libra sidereally.
Gamma: It would be what?
Delta: Virgo.
Alpha: OK. So what has happened so far is that we have got about four really interesting references that talk about unfoldment of different petals relative to different states of consciousness. And the main question up in the air is ... how high a state of consciousness does five petals unfolding indicate? Does it indicate really a significant level. Now what is the one ...
Beta: She associates it with the probationary path. Page 828. First, on page 825: “In these three circles of petals lies concealed another clue to the mystery of the 777 incarnations.” Then, on page 828: “Third. The Seven incarnations. These are those passed upon the Probationary Path.”
Alpha: OK. Well, that would fit. If, let us say, we have a full disciple at the end of the unfoldment of the fifth petal, then the seven petals, the last seven incarnations symbolically, have to be involved with the unfolding of the fifth petal completely. So that is probationary.
Beta: For me that is two and a half.
Alpha: And now another thing that has just come up is the idea that a person is on the probationary path when they are still a second degree initiate, or two and a half degrees. Whereas other people feel that a probationary path can even precede the first initiation, that you are tested out by Vulcan and Pluto, so to speak, and if you pass through that test you can step onto the first initiation, at which you are in the very least on the path of discipleship.
Beta: Maybe this is a ray factor of the people analysing it ...