Alpha: So what is the major discrepancy? The major discrepancy is that we are considering probation as possibly extending much farther into and beyond the second initiation than others consider it.
Beta: We know many disciples, and most disciples are not conscious of their status, they do not know they are disciples. So this would indicate to me planetary initiation. There is a question about accepted discipleship, how far accepted? If you are an accepted disciple or chela (that is the standard term), then you have six stages of chelaship and accepted disciple means that you are in the periphery, you are allowed to be part of the ashram.
Alpha: … a factor on the periphery of the ashram. … Chela on the thread would give access to the master.
Gamma: Well, the term aspirant sometimes seems to go to the fourth initiation. It goes very high.
Alpha: Aspirant to what? Disciple to what? Tested how?
Delta: I would like to just possibly, partially descend from your correlation’s with the initiations, though I do realise DK does give Pluto and Vulcan for the first and Jupiter, Neptune and Venus for the second, in places. I think, from my perceptions, I like the idea of Uranus and the seventh ray ruling the first initiation, and Neptune and the sixth ray ruling the second initiation. So to me, the first initiation shows a responsiveness to Uranus. Somehow the person realises there’s a higher vibration and they become attuned to some kind of revolution within themselves. … So, for me, that is more seventh ray.
Beta: I see that in Uranus Moon.
Delta: Yeah. And then the second initiation I see more as sixth ray/Neptune where the person is in touch with their buddhic vehicle meaning the unified field that we are all in.
Alpha: Don’t forget that Mars requires that an arousal which must be subdued. Therefore Mars and the sixth ray may figure well into the second initiation ... to arouse that which must be subdued. For instance, classically, Mars oppose Venus—Neptune—Jupiter. You know, that kind of scheme.
Beta: The person who ran the ____ from the ULT is gung ho Blavatsky, intolerant of any other position, and has Moon/Taurus opposite Neptune/Scorpio, Mars in Sagittarius, Sagittarius rising, Sun conjunct Saturn, there’s all that Scorpio/Sagittarius stuff.
Alpha: There is a lot in line with what you say. There is a strong possibility that the ray which rules initiation may be very present in the horoscope of the person taking that initiation. Like for instance what you have just spelled out is a Mars—Neptune—Moon T-square, something like that. In other words that the person taking the initiation is going to have to be characterised by that particular ray. The horoscope will often times bring it in to accentuation. Not that that is the only way that you can read the presence of the ray, but it could happen. Not everybody that has got Mars—Moon, for instance is going to be taking the third initiation.
Beta: No, I am thinking that what you’re tuning in on are the blinds for the sun and moon. For the moon particularly, probably for the planetary initiations (it may be the sun for the solar) but you would have Uranus, Neptune, Saturn. Well, I don’t know how it works, Uranus, Neptune, Saturn, or Vulcan for the Moon. Yeah, it is that third ruler I can’t quite sort out because I see Jupiter, Saturn on the Solar level and I see Vulcan (inaudible) the moon for the second ...
Alpha: Right. So the moon association becomes very important.
Beta: So its not necessarily the initiation but quite often it is. People fall into those categories before initiation process, I think. …
Delta: I think it could work on a couple of levels because he does say Moon and Mars brings out this fearful conflict resulting in the third initiation. I see the third initiation as being more under the fifth ray with Venus, but if someone is taking the second initiation to me that means that, like Robertson would say, you have got fifty-one percent control but the other forty-nine percent still might be going crazy So, in other words, the Moon and Mars just completely smashes out your solar plexus.
Alpha: Let me show you another reference about Moon and Mars which is terrible important, which should be always conjoined with the reference on page71; this is on page 246 of Esoteric Psychology I: At the third initiation: “... the Moon and Mars struggle to assume ascendancy, and there is his battle-ground, hence at the great Transfiguration, the body is “transfigured” as the indication of triumph.”
So, what he has brought out here is that Moon and Mars in their own right and apart from any esoteric ruler act as an opponent ‘first’. The method to victory over them is to transmute Mars into higher Mars and to substitute whatever for the Moon. In other words, there is this huge dweller issue that occurs at the third degree that Moon—Mars symbolises in its own right ... without Vulcan, or Uranus or any of that present.
Delta: But Neptune has to be there. And to me it suggests ... those very words suggest the involvement of the solar plexus ... the total transmutation of the solar plexus where it becomes green instead of red (or pink).
Beta: You mean the downward pointing of the red triangle and upward pointing green.
Alpha: ... upward pointing green, I can see green as related to, somehow, the domination through the manasic aspect of the solar plexus. Whether it would have to be Neptune or just the fact that Saturn becomes terrible important at the third degree.
Gamma: What is the colour of the throat centre? Green?
Alpha: Silvery-blue.
Delta: Wouldn’t it usually be green if you associate the third ray with it. It is the seventh ray for disciples.
Alpha: Page 168 of Cosmic Fire gives you the colours, “The throat centre, sixteen petals of a silvery blue, with blue predominating.”
Delta: Then that would correspond perhaps with Uranus ruling the throat chakra for advanced disciples.
Beta: Right, this is the traditional yogic colour, or smoky blue.
Delta: Silver-blue is a lot of times a Uranian colour, more than a Saturnean colour. …
Alpha: See, the question would arise, that, given well advanced disciples – and you know they don’t call you an advanced disciple anymore when you are an initiate of the third degree, they call you an Initiate, right? Discipleship, per se, stops in the conventional sense of the description at the third degree, except when you use the idea a third degree initiate as a disciple of some kind, and so is the fourth degree. That is not how we usually consider it.
Delta: This is according to Leadbeater here. Leadbeater might have just been saying it in one specific context.
Beta: I think of Initiate as only applying to the fourth and above and in some rare cases, the end of the third.
Alpha: Well the idea is there is a transition that goes on, and the third degree is neither fish nor fowl. It is very interesting in that respect. It is the initiation in which the person becomes truly human, he says, and yet the person is not yet a ‘soul’.
Beta: Its true, their buddhi doesn’t express thoroughly. I think at the third you must be still attached to some idealism which has to be destroyed.
Alpha: “Rich young man” Ahamkaric. Self fascinated, still.
Beta: Ahamkara, not buddhi. That ties in with the classes of hierarchies. … that is something I want to hand out, a provocative compilation ...
Alpha: OK. We’ll deal with that. Coming back to the quote which started this whole discussion. “Then, the second series of petals are opened during a period of time during his participation, intelligently in world affairs.” Page 543, of Cosmic Fire. That sounds to me like advanced man, intelligent man at some point verging on the spiritual. “... until he enters the spiritual kingdom at the first Initiation; and a final and briefer period wherein the three higher or inner ring of petals are developed and opened.”
Beta: OK. You say he enters the spiritual kingdom at the first initiation. Is that a capital “I”?
Alpha: Yes, page 543. Are you collecting capital “I’s”?
Beta: No, no, no. It is just that I am correlating all these things. I may have something to respond to.
Alpha: Let me put forward two possibilities here. The possibilities are that the spiritual kingdom really is the kingdom of the soul entered at the third initiation. And that somehow, the seventh, eighth and ninth petal are all involved in the unfoldment ...
Tape Three Begins [Reiterating … ]
I am proposing two interpretations. One interpretation is that the first Initiation (with a capital “I”) represents really the third initiation, third planetary, first solar, and that as the third initiation is being prepared for, the seventh, eighth and ninth petals are unfolding. And that by the time sixth petal has completely unfolded the first two planetary initiations have occurred. That is one interpretation. … In other words the sixth petal means that the second planetary initiation has been completed.
Delta: So are we saying that with the fifth petal the first initiation would have been completed?
Alpha: I would say the later part of the fifth petal frankly. That is one interpretation.
Secondly, the next interpretation is that one enters … here we are calling the spiritual kingdom an actual entry into the antechamber of the kingdom of souls, which means the man has a been solarized. The other interpretation for spiritual kingdom has to do with having been initiated by the Christ at the first planetary initiation. That would be a second interpretation ... that man has, in fact, entered the spiritual kingdom when Christ has initiated him once. And the interpretation there would be that the seventh petal would correlate pretty much with the first initiation, the eighth with the second, and the ninth with the third.
Now, corresponding to that and without losing the train of thought, one should turn to page 822 .... where he then says, with regard to “The middle ‘love’ triad”: “Petal 2: Higher intelligent love on the physical and astral planes.” And “Petal 3: Loving intelligent sacrifice on the physical and astral planes.”
Now, if we can correlate petal two and petal three with intelligent human living, entering into world affairs, that is the question. Or whether we should correlate what is just said here with the first and second initiations.
Looking at the sacrifice petals, the following three statements should either be considered all of them in relation to the third initiation, or they should be considered in relation to initiation one, two and three respectively. The first would be petal number seven: “The Will to sacrifice through knowledge on the mental plane, and thus intelligently to dominate the entire threefold lower man.” Does that refer to a stage of preparing for the third initiation or does it relate to the first initiation?
Delta: I think it is the third.
Alpha: OK. The next, petal two, with regard to “The inner ‘sacrificial’ triad”: “The will to sacrifice through love on the mental plane, and thus to serve.”Does that indicate the second initiation or a stage of preparation for the third?
Finally, petal three: “The utter sacrifice of all forever.” I don’t think there is any question that that relates to the third initiation. As a matter of fact it is so severe that it should go beyond the third initiation.
Now, if I may, to keep the train of thought, refer to page 540. The following should be considered in two ways. What I am about to say either relates to intelligent humanity participating in world affairs, or it relates to initiation one and two. So does the following relate to the first initiation, or does it relate to intelligent participation in world affairs? [With regard to Petal number five, “The Petal of Love for the astral plane:
“ … unfoldment is brought about through the process of gradually transmuting the love of the subjective nature or of the Self within. This has a dual effect and works through on to the physical plane in many lives of turmoil, of endeavour and of failure as a man strives to turn his attention to the love of the Real.”
Is that the average man participating intelligently in world affairs or is that the possibility of first degree initiate? Then, petal number six with regard to “The Petal of Sacrifice for the astral plane:
“ … unfoldment is brought about by the attitude of man as he consciously endeavours to give up his own desires for the sake of his group. His motive is still somewhat a blind one, and still coloured by the desire for a return of that which he gives and for love from those he seeks to serve, but it is of a much higher order than the blind sacrifice to which a man is driven by circumstances as is the case in the earlier unfoldment.”
So the question, does this relate to initiation number two or intelligent participation in the world?
Gamma: The third.
Delta: I think it is number two.
Alpha: You think it is number two. Yeah. OK. Remember, it is still selfish. It is still selfish. Now look, this is how I always thought it was, but I was lead, by page 543 that started all the trouble.
Next. The question now arises, in relation number seven whether we are talking about a preparation for the third initiation or whether we are talking about initiation number one. Page 541, petal seven.
“The Petal of Knowledge for the mental plane; its unfoldment marks the period wherein the man consciously utilises all that he has gained or is gaining under the law for the definite benefit of humanity.”
Alpha: Is that the first initiation or is that a stage of preparation for the third?
Beta: It means he is a rich young man; he has to have something to give.
Alpha: OK. He is not there yet. That is your opinion that he is a rich young man.
Beta: Well, it is at the beginning stages.
Alpha: Beginning stages, he is consciously utilising all that he has gained. Petal number eight, page 541:
“The Petal of Love on the mental plane is unfolded through the conscious steady application of all the powers of the soul to the service of humanity with no thought of return nor any desire for reward for the immense sacrifice involved.”
Alpha: Is that the second initiation? Or is that preparation for a phase of the third?
Beta: I think it must be a phase of the third because the person’s highly developed. They have a sense of idealism that is going to have to be sacrificed. They can still be fanatic.
Alpha: Uh-ha. What do you think?
Delta: I think it is the third.
Alpha: You think it is related to the third. You realise we are saying a very interesting thing here.
Delta: Again, I might be misunderstanding the basis of this discussion, but to me the first initiation means the person is fully awake. They realise that something is going on greater than themselves; there is a greater whole. Often times the throat chakra “goes off”, they start telling everyone about it, not living it so much but they are talking about it.
Alpha: Sure.
Delta: But still it is very, very real to them, but they are not necessarily embodying it. And the second, the the person is trying to embody it and becomes the leader of some project, group or some sort of exemplar – and either applies to a great level because you know how advanced they are in the second....
Beta: But they don’t work intelligently, necessarily.
Delta: They work intelligently, but there is still some selfishness. They are still struggling with themselves. But they realise there is a unity there. Whereas with the third, I think they can implement fully via their will and their identity goes into it much greater identity.
Alpha: OK. We probably have no questions at all about this ninth petal:
“... demonstrates as the predominant bias of the soul as seen in a series of many lives spent by the initiate prior to his final emancipation. He becomes in his sphere the "Great Sacrifice."
Alpha: That is the ninth petal, page 542, the petal of sacrifice on the mental plane. No question. That is consummating the third. So the real question to answer here is on page 540 and 541, when we discovered on top of page 541 that there was selfishness. “He consciously endeavours to give up his own desires for the sake of his group.” That is not the man participating intelligently in the world and just trying to be group oriented; this is what a second degree initiate would do.
Beta: Oh yeah. Intelligent world work just means its below the first degree, I think. Well it depends. He says “the second series of petals are opened, during a period of time covering his participation intelligently”, that is so vague: “in world affairs until he entered the spiritual kingdom”. So that means “at the first initiation”; he enters the spiritual kingdom at the first initiation.
Alpha: Yeah. Now. But that is the point. Is that the first initiation the first initiation, or is it the third? (That is page 543, the problem paragraph that set off my whole inquiry about these petals.)
Beta: So, I’ve got a couple quotes. 697-698:
“The fifth or spiritual kingdom is entered when the units of the fourth kingdom have succeeded in vitalizing the fifth spirilla in all the atoms of the threefold lower man; when they have unfolded three of the egoic petals and are in process of unfolding the fourth and fifth and when they are becoming conscious of the pranic force of the Heavenly Man.”
So this means that five spirillae are have been vitalised. It does not mean they are fully active.
Alpha: OK, but you realise that this contradicts what we seem to be saying. This is saying that the spiritual kingdom is entered at the unfoldment of the fifth petal instead of the seventh.
Delta: That is why I am saying it is the first initiation. He finally realises that he is more than just a fortuitous combination of atoms; he realises he is connected with a greater thing.
Alpha: I grant you that. But what I am trying to say is that if the spiritual kingdom means the third initiation we all know that the third initiation does not occur at the unfolding of five petals. And, here what Beta has just read seems to suggest that the spiritual kingdom is entered at the unfolding of five petals.
Beta: So maybe it is the first initiation, the first planetary initiation when you enter the spiritual kingdom. Is that possible?
Alpha: Yes. It is possible.
Delta: It is like a born-again Christian. Born again, they realise that something is going on, Christ and all that. But that is about it.
Alpha: OK. He is entering the spiritual kingdom. It is not the same as being a resident of the spiritual kingdom.
Delta: Exactly. There is a difference. Permanent resident verses somebody who [visits] for a while.
Alpha: Right now, what Beta is seeming to say is that the fifth, or spiritual, kingdom is entered when the units of the fourth kingdom have succeeded in vitalising the fifth spirillae in all the atoms of the three-fold lower man, i.e. when they have unfolded three of the egoic petals and are in process of unfolding the fourth and fifth. So basically the fifth kingdom is entered when the fifth petal has unfolded and a man is a disciple.
Delta: I wouldn’t use the word entered, “becomes aware of” as a real reality.
Gamma: Is there a correspondence between the fifth petal and the fifth spirillae?
Alpha: Yes.
Beta: And a little earlier on 696 he says ... what we read before, “the completed cycle of the Ego upon the five Rays under the Mahachohan”. So that means, basically the Mahachohan and the Masters involved with all the lower rays who involve the world; intelligent world affairs.
Alpha: The fifth petal is the pivot point between the third aspect, Libra, and second aspect, heart, Leo. I mean, that is one way to look at it. One way I looked at it is in terms of rays; the other way I looked at it is in terms of rulership. Now, if this is the case, he is entering the spiritual kingdom (or at least is becoming aware, becoming influenced by the spiritual kingdom) at the fifth petal – or the fourth and fifth are unfolding. OK. However, notice this, until he enters the spiritual kingdom ... I think there is difference between entering and becoming influenced by.
Gamma: There must be a difference, you know.
Alpha: Now, this time he says he enters the spiritual kingdom at the first initiation, “and then a final and briefer period where the three higher or inner ring of petals are developed and opened.” So at page 543, the troublesome paragraph has us wondering where the spiritual kingdom is entered. And here he says, he enters the spiritual kingdom (page 697) “when the fourth and fifth are unfolding”. And on 543, he enters the spiritual kingdom when the last three are unfolding, seven, eight and nine.
Delta: I think its sloppy terminology. To me it is more like you have been given a guest pass into a nice place at the first initiation. It is peak experience, but doesn’t mean you can hang out there.
Alpha: So, two ways of talking about ‘entered’. So basically we have, in entering the spiritual kingdom, what does that really mean? Does it mean he can take initiation? Or does it mean he is just subject to the influence of it?
Beta: He is still on the probationary path. Until those five petals are fully active and the sixth is ...
Alpha: OK. “Still on the probationary path” ... has he taken the first or second initiation?
Delta: Well, what I am proposing is a definition for the first initiation which no one disagreed with before. Please do, if you disagree. All [the first degree] means is that a person is awakened to a greater reality; it doesn’t mean they embody it at all, but it is becoming a reality. And therefore they will try to make an effort to start moving towards the light.
Alpha: I agree.
Beta: He doesn’t take a major project until the third or fourth.
Alpha: No, that is right, the third degree is taking of a project, the so-called ‘stone’. We are all Masons here, so we deal with the Keystone; you are putting your stone in the temple; making your mark is the third degree, and it is the stone of the arch.
Then you are opting for the idea that he becomes aware at the first initiation, and that it is perfectly consistent with this sort of sloppy way of living described here under petal number five and six.
Beta: There are scores of incarnations under the first initiation. There can be enormous numbers of incarnations between the first and second.
Alpha: And basically what you are saying is that if you compare this. You are saying that petal number seven, eight and nine can open in the same life.
Delta: The third initiation. … I am not saying “in the same life”, but are all involved “with”.
Alpha: You are saying in the same life and you don’t even know it yet. And here is why, on the bottom of page 84 & 85 ... Initiation Human and Solar:
“Many years elapsed between the Birth and the Baptism, but the remaining three steps were taken in three years. Once the second initiation is taken the progress will be rapid, the third and fourth following probably in the same life, or the succeeding.”
Delta: Let me just say how I see it, tell me where I am wrong. I see myself as the very bottom of the barrel of second-level initiate. I am trying to embody that at least and bumbling forward and taking a few baby steps with creative projects. So I see myself as the very bottom level, whereas, lets say, I would consider Jimmy Carter at the very, very top level of the second. In other words, he is fully embodied. He is out there everyday doing it and has all these creative projects. He is living selflessly, etc. But yet, (and who am I to say what his identity is?) but my speculation is that he is still identified with being Jimmy Carter. Even though he is doing all these selfless works and has self discipline and has all these good projects going. Whereas, at the third degree, the identity is, well, there is this Jimmy Carter body down here, but I am part of everyone. So, I think there can be a wide range in the second, a huge range.
Alpha: What do you mean, once the second has been taken?
Delta: The hallmark of the second degree initiate would be they would be embodying this kingdom of heaven in some way, through some project or being some leader in a group.
Beta: You can still be an unconscious disciple, and ego invested …
Alpha: There is still ego. And it is called, remember, to know, to express ... but it is expression of the divine plan. Expression of the divine plan is what the second degree does. But this is the Jimmy Carter thing that you are talking about.
Delta: Yeah. And he is doing a billion times better expression than me. I am at the very bottom of that and he is at the very top of that. (I think he will go on to the third because ...)
Alpha: But remember what we just said here. That once the second degree is taken, the third and the fourth can follow in the same life.
Delta: I think, only the higher part of the second. But I agree. I am projecting my own arbitrary opinion; I don’t know, this is just my understanding. I only think that is the very advanced part of the second where you are embodying it, like Jimmy Carter.
Beta: Yeah. In the second initiation they still have to have ego investment. You still have warfare between the soul and the personality, and those two sets of values.
Alpha: You have warfare up until the third degree; you have warfare up until the fourth degree.
Beta: Yeah. Exactly. But it is different on the fourth degree, it is more etheric in nature, more of a warfare with the world, more as it is.
Alpha: It’s not so much your own lunar lords that are resisting, although your lunar lords may resist the idea of being totally sacrificed. I mean they may. Suppose you have a world project and it falls to the sacrificing of your life. There may be a last ditch stand of the lunar lords against that.
Gamma: _____ for example.
Alpha: Yeah. Or the case of people who are called to martyrdom of some kind. Or maybe _____, Burno or people like that.
Beta: Or even Christ. That is interpreted in different ways too. That is interesting, well the animal has to have its due; it has its own life, and certainly if the soul abstracted itself from the animal life I don’t think it could even talk.
Alpha: Have we arrived, I am speaking of consensus here, that the spiritual kingdom is an influence when the fourth and fifth petals are opened? DK uses the word ‘entered’ on page 697, but we are saying it is ‘influential’. And the fact that it is influential ...
I want to know what happens to the path of aspiration prior to the first birth? Is that a fifth petal or fourth petal/fifth petal affair? Late fourth petal/fifth petal affair? E.g., “I aspire to be good enough to be oriented unwaveringly towards the soul no matter how many mistakes I make?”, because that is how he describes the first initiation.
Delta: Didn’t he describe the fourth petal as personality integration? The fourth petal was mostly just, ‘how can I be effective?’, ‘how can I make sure that number one gets what number one wants?’.
Alpha: It’s the selfish four elementals (described in Rays and Initiations), they thrive on the first four petals.
Beta: The dark lords can be on the first and second degrees. … Ayn Rand, you know in a way, she could express enlightened self interest, and all of it ... she wrote “Atlas Shrugged” ... American Author.
Alpha: ... who is a will author, lower will. Yeah. He says that the majority of black magicians are on the first ray egoic. That is a quote. And in Treatise on White Magic he tells you how each of the egoic rays operate in the black lodge. You know, how the third ray colludes, the second ray encourages you towards temptation, and the first ray just, you know, grasps. Anyway, I am just quoting; I haven’t read the book in years. OK. So the question is what kind of uneven petal unfoldment goes on there?
Beta: He says that the petals in the tiers can open ... there can be some peculiar karma,depending on the group karma, also on the individual on the masters ...
(tape interrupted)
Gamma: He says that one petal can open before the one before, you know.
Alpha: The primary lotuses from Vulcan and Mercury, whereever they came from, the primary lotuses came in with one and three unfolded. Those are the ones.
Beta: So you can actually have two, only two on one of the tiers, and you can open up a petal on the next tier for some unusual reason. So if you have six petals unopened it could be one of the sacrifice petals, on the buddhic level perhaps. I mean that is the most suggestive. Or maybe on the manasic level.
Alpha: Wait ... you can have six petals unopened?
Beta: Or, unfolding, and there must be seven degrees of gradation, of stimulation, awakening, unfolding and unfolded, or mastery you know ....
Alpha: OK, so you are saying that every petal unfolded goes through seven stages in the unfoldment process.
Beta: Yeah, I think that must be true. But you know you must have a petal awakened. Six could mean one sacrifice petal awakened, and only two on the lower. I am sure that very common because manasic types are easily found. Manasic types could easily bypass the love petals.
Alpha: So they have to go back and so … someone could have some sort of manasic sacrifice petal unopened, but could be missing something on the second tier. OK. Well lets just see if we can firm this up. … I want to get at the spiritual kingdom problem. I always used to think that the higher fifth petal, being a pivot petal, was easily Leo/Libra and therefore the first degree. That the sixth petal was easily Piscean/Virgoan, with sixth ray, commitment, selflessness (attempted) and therefore second degree. And that the unfolding of seven, eight, and nine were basically the runway to the third degree. That is how I used to think.
Beta: The sixth you call Piscean or Virgoan?
Alpha: Well it is definitely Virgoan.
Delta: The second initiation is governed by the sixth ray and Neptune rules Pisces. And the moon veils Neptune for Virgo.
Alpha: And by the way, the sixth is where you quote/unquote ... ‘give up his own desires for the sake of the group’. That sounds Pisces/Virgo to me. “His motive may still be somewhat a blind one”. Can you say that of a second degree initiate? Can you say that? His motive may still somewhat be a blind one? And still coloured by the desire for the return of that which he gives?
Beta: Yeah. You can say that ...
Alpha: ... and for love from those he seeks to serve. Maybe you can say that, the desire for return for love ...
Beta: Because of the fanaticism he serves so blindly ...
Delta: See, I can say that about me very easily; I am not really rampant, berserk with that desire … but I would say it is certainly there.
Beta: Interesting quote where she identifies a probationary path on page 828. This is in the area where she talks about those who have passed upon the probationary path. “ b. The two circles of petals are "awake," one being wide open and the other on the verge of opening.” ... the knowledge and love petals are awake. But only one is wide open, and the other is on the verge of opening so that is still somewhere where the fifth petal is still being worked on. It is like the spirillae which have been vivified but they are not active. They are not fully active and they are certainly not controlling.
Alpha: So, in other words, those statements you feel are characteristic of someone who could be on the second degree. In other words. There is still selfishness. There is still lunarity. There is still a planetary orientation and there is not an unselfish solar orientation. Because there can be selfishness on the third degree, for heaven sake!
Beta: ... there certainly is.
Alpha: That’s what is astounding. The rich young man went sadly away. That is not selflessness.
Gamma: You think he was on the third degree?
Alpha: Yeah. ... not only think, DK actually says it: He was rich in every thing except his will to sacrifice that which he was rich in.
Beta: It’s blindness.
Alpha: It is ahamkara. Fear of losing that which you think you are.
Beta: Identity association.
Alpha: Then, therefore, the conclusion of the group is that the following represents the runway to or the antechamber of the third degree and can be consummated relatively quickly, namely (page 541): “the man consciously utilises all that he has gained or is gaining under the law for the definite benefit of humanity.” That is not the first degree, that is the antechamber to the third. And further, at 542, that: “the conscious steady application of all the powers of the soul to the service of humanity with no thought of return nor any desire for reward for the immense sacrifice involved.” ... the antechamber to the third initiation, and not the second degree.
Beta: Fully consummated second.
Delta: Yeah. Fully consummated second. The most advanced second, borderline the third.
Alpha: If you say that, then you are reserving the third degree for the ninth petal …
Delta: I am reserving it for the ninth petal.
Alpha: Now you are taking the position that I just took before.
Delta: I don’t see a contradiction there. In other words, the ninth petal would be the fully consummated third.
Alpha: OK, so are you saying that the second degree can be taken at the end of the sixth petal? The sixth petal, with all its selfishness and all the rest of it trying to help the group ... is a second degree thing?
Delta: Yes …
Beta: ... the fifth petal is just entering the kingdom ... it is accepted discipleship, you’re OK. You don’t have to be worried about, in a certain way.
Delta: That is why I cited Jimmy Carter. I think he is very much like this. The petal of love for the mental plane [fifth], for example, it says “the conscious steady application of all the powers of the soul to the service of humanity with no thought of return nor any desire for reward for the immense sacrifice involved.”
Alpha: The man has passed the second degree, has got his foot on the second degree, and is really warming up for the third degree at this point.
Delta: Yeah. I would say that he probably has the merest glimmer of some desire for some reward or recognition, the merest glimmer of it.
Beta: That is true. One only becomes conscious as a disciple somewhere there between second and third. And sometime even in the third, you have to start the third, I think, before you become …
Alpha: Don’t forget the Tibetan’s group, as conscious as you think they were or were not, they were predominately between the first and the second.
Beta: That may be true. I can certainly understand why that was.
Alpha: And believe me, when you see their problems, you know, you read DINA, these were a bunch of personal problems. There were problems like forcing your point of view; there were problems with self pity …
Beta: They were ... it was a different cycle. But they were in an initiating cycle. I think the ultimate assessment couldn’t be made except with understanding their motivation.
Alpha: Well, he did says point blank: ‘both of you are preparing for the second initiation.’
Beta: You still have personal issues I think into the fourth, cause one identifies, one still has idealism, but identifies with the good of the entire universe, with one’s drive to do good and identify with universe or the goal, rather than oneself. Nevertheless you still have all this refuse trailing, these old habits and what-not trailing.
Alpha: Are you still holding out for the idea that ....some of the Tibetan’s disciples were between the third and fourth degree?
Beta: I could never say that until I had examined them more closely. ...
Alpha: I will produce [the reports] for this group and you can judge them for yourself.
Beta: I would love to see something. I have always assumed just for their writings though, DK was writing it was from the first and third to a great extent. He even says that the Cosmic Fire is for fourth degree students.
Alpha: He says it is for initiates. Does he say fourth degree?
Gamma: No, I don’t think so.
Alpha: The book was written only for initiates.
Beta: I assume the fourth degree is there but it is extremely rare, obviously.
Alpha: I would say it is written from the third on up.
Gamma: I think it was the fourth degree, the way I understand it, they are starting to gather their own disciples and training them, etc. They are not really under the tuition of a master any more, you see. Oh they could be at a distance ....
Alpha: They could be a disciple within the heart, a disciple within the aura. A fourth degree initiate could be the master of an ashram, not the master, but the adept of an ashram, or arhat of an ashram on a scientific level, on the manasic level. But the fourth degree arhat is still under the supervision of a master and of a chohan, although he is doing his own thing. It is just like DK; DK is a fifth degree at least reporting to KH, and in his ashram in a certain respect. Right?
Delta: Perhaps, after the break we can go on to how these petals correspond with the unfoldment of the chakras to some degree … if people are agreeable.
Alpha: Yeah. Look, I mean, when I made this outline ... its like three Cosmic Fire books. You know, I mean, I put down in the outline all the unanswered questions that I have ever had about anything ‘in order’.
Delta: Well, I think, especially the thing that you brought up: what does he mean by ‘entering the spiritual kingdom?’. He seems to be using entering in a much different way in different parts of this book.
Alpha: Yeah. You have got to be careful in the reading and, of course, the compilation work is so important because then you get to see where he appears to contradict himself. And then you have to use your intuition to decide what is really going on here.
See, what is very important about this is, disciples in the modern age, in a way, have to understand what petals they are unfolding because there are specific tasks here related to each of the petals. Each one of us might well ask ourselves what it is we are doing?
And we also want to know how far we can go and fast we can go because we are equipping ourselves for greater service. We are looking for initiation because it gives added power to serve. Right? So, from a certain point of view, what I just read, in IHS, is true, that like St. Paul, it looks like to me, the second, third, and fourth initiations can all be taken in the same life and probably will, he says probably will. That’s an astounding statement. Then, the seventh, eighth, and ninth petals could, under applied attention, unfold extremely rapidly.
Beta: ... because of the release of egoic power ... and its manasic focus.
Alpha: ... manasic focus. They could unfold, using the analogy, ten times as fast as the love petals. Probably, even that is not an exaggeration, probably it should be many more times than ten times as fast. What we really need is the acceleration formula for evolution. You know what I am saying. We need the degree to which the ascending spiral accelerates in its ascent.
Delta: ... logarithmic or geometrical error ...
Alpha: Yeah.
Beta: We have to guard the bodies of all our fellow spiritual students, too, guard the etheric mechanisms, guard the lower vehicles, the lower bodies, the health.
Alpha: Guard the health. What is apparently happening here is because of this ingathering, a third ingathering, you know, the Buddha, the Christ and now, major New Group of World Servers, ingathering into the ashrams, a tremendous acceleration is possible for those who ride the crest of the wave – not in any crazy new age, you know ‘you can do it all in one incarnation business’ – but in a sincere technical way, because of the availability of energy which can be understood. I mean, you know the danger on one hand is inflation. The danger on the other is self-minimisation and not taking advantage of ‘the wave’. So the big question is, what can we really do and can we not maximise ourselves for the sake of the process. What’s within our reach?
Beta: All of this involves the transmutation of the ethers of the higher ethers, the planetary ethers, our human and personal, individual ethers being substituted with planetary ethers.
Alpha: ... in other words, triadal ethers. Triadal plane says ethers in substitute of planetary ethers.
Beta: ... as in Telepathy … That can be dangerous, particularly dangerous. That why it is safer in group formation. … That is the necessity for manasic workers and technical workers [not?] standing too high.
Alpha: That is what we are involved in. We are involved in manasic work so the technical understanding can be supported when all craziness comes along and people believe this and people believe that. And you can mobilise your thought in such a way to substantiate for them where and what they are really doing, where they are really standing, what is possible.
Gamma: When I look at, a quotation in one of his books [about a disciple] one had eighty per cent glamour, and the lowest had thirty percent glamour.
Alpha: DK said that?
Epsilon: ... that is in one of the DINAs, he gives a list of the percentage of the glamours of the disciples, and one had only twenty percent, but the other one was varying between eighty percent to ...
Beta: Individuals? ... or different groups?
Epsilon: They were individuals. He gives the letters [initialed name of the disciple] and he says you still have that amount or proportion of glamour ...
Alpha: You know what we should do ... Maybe, hit the button there for a second.
[tape paused]
Delta: He says in one of the books, I forget where, if only three disciples in a group can really co-operate transpersonally and with love and so forth, there will be a quantum leap forward for the whole group. For me, that also shows that, in a way that is saying, if there can be just three people who are advanced second degree initiates ... So now, assuming that I am defining second degree correctly, it shows there could be a lot of people who are first and second degree initiates, that still can’t co-operate as effectively as they might.
Alpha: That is true. … I collected a bunch of stuff about the third degree in the beginning of my book here. And I just want to read it in this context. This is from DINA II page 397 to 401:
“..the transfiguration of the personality” results in “its liberation from the alluring imprisonment in the three worlds.” ...that is about the third degree. … “At the third initiation, or transfiguration the control of the personality in the three worlds is broken in order that the son of mind, the soul, may be substituted finally for the concrete and hitherto directing lower mind.”
... which is really interesting is about the battle of lower manas and higher manas at that point. And it tells you something even about Mars as the ruler of lower manas which he tells us earlier.
Beta: Again, really he says that somewhere explicitly.
Alpha: ... yeah, the five senses are ruled by Mars and the concrete mind, the concrete scientific mind. ... Mars seems to rule everything, everything. It is amazing.
Beta: Guess why? … in this previous cycles … (One of the things is no one will dare talk about right?) No one will discuss Mars. And this and that. ... or Venus, maybe, for that matter ... in some respects.
Alpha: unha. ...well, say a few more words. … You are hinting darkly. Can you be a little more explicit?
Beta: I don’t know. I am just saying that all the standard quotes from Blavatsky and some from Bailey saying that certain things cannot be discussed.
Alpha: Yeah ... of which no initiate may speak.
Beta: Because of the cycle ... it is too revealing of the status of the planetary ...
Alpha: Ah ha. Yeah, that is right, there is something about ...
Gamma: Why does he call Mars, somewhere (inaudible), the important chain, the fourth chain, (inaudible) before is Mars (inaudible).
Alpha: Yeah. But that is a peculiar statement because there was a lot that was called ... HPB got in there and said clearing up a few theosophical misconceptions.
Beta: Right. But, in a way she was blinding it. She was using that as a blind, to take it even further. There was something there that had to be blinded further. … The mistake was that people thought that Mars ... the Mars chain was attached to our planet ...
Alpha: ... Mars scheme ...
Beta: Nope. But she didn’t even use the scheme. She never used the term scheme.
Alpha: She called them chains.
Beta: Right. ... Basically you have all these planets as the dense physical bodies of chains. But, the mistake was that Mars and Mercury were in our Earth chain.
Gamma: That is right (inaudible) Leadbeater ... (inaudible) also.
Beta: Yes. (inaudible) yeah actually it was in his Esoteric Buddhism ... I think he mentioned that.
Alpha: … Mars is given as the third scheme and Mercury as the fifth scheme. Three and five. So they do flank the earth.
Beta: They are the etheric body or they are associated with it. They are in the third triangle ... in the planetary constitution. … initiation is only taken in an etheric, or physical, body.
Alpha: Now here, among the chains they are listed as the fifth and sixth (this is page 389 for the chains and page 369 for the schemes). So they are listed as the fifth and sixth chains: Mars sixth; Mercury fifth. They do not flank the earth.
Delta: This is not to pay attention to the names.
Alpha: That could be a blinding too. I frankly think it is.
Delta: I don’t. I will tell you why. Because, if you look at the chains and schemes as being like chakras, or in another manner of speaking like the houses in the horoscope, then in one horoscope Mars can be in the second house, in another horoscope Venus can be in the second house, in another horoscope Neptune can be in the second house – what is most important idea is what does the idea of the second house represent? And then that idea is going to be coloured by whatever planet is in there.
Alpha: So, what do you say corresponds to the houses?
Delta: That the numbers of the chains. In other words, they are the numbers of the chains one through seven. Just as the houses are one through twelve, there are schemes one through seven, chains one through seven, globes one through seven. Each of these numbers has an intrinsic meaning.
Alpha: That is non-planetarily associated?
Delta: Yeah. That has meaning in and of itself independent of any planets or rays. And then a certain ray or planet will operate through that for a given amount of time and then move on. And another ray or planet will be in that position.
Alpha: But you know he does say the Venus and Jupiter scheme, to which he gives the number two and six ...
Delta: ... those were correct (end of side 3A) … the chains and the planets with the numbers verses the names.
Alpha: OK ... that can be reiterated … that was an inbetween conversation.
Delta: OK. You go forward with what you want to do and then we’ll come back to that.
Alpha: What I can tell you ... I was just reading for every body’s sake a few factors on the third initiation in relation to ... we said there was a battle between lower manas and higher manas with respect to the third initiation, [DINA II, page 398]: “... that the son of mind, the soul, may be substituted finally for the concrete and hitherto directing lower mind. Again, through the Law of Sacrifice, personality is liberated and becomes simply an agent of the soul.”
Then Rays and Initiations, page 110: “ all personality tendencies are obliterated.” Then page 44-45 : “The secret of the third initiation is the demonstration of complete freedom from the claims and demands of the personality.”
Gamma: It is over 50%. ...
Alpha: Well, the problem is the word about ‘complete freedom’ ... That sounds a bit more than 50%.
Nevertheless, Rays and Initiations, page 56: When “the third initiation is undergone and points of tension (qualified by intention and purpose) supersede all previous efforts and the will aspect begins to control.” Then, this ties in with the previous questions about whether the fifth and sixth petal can correspond to the first and second degree in as much as there are inadequacies in such people.
And Rays and Initiations, page 385:
“... their lives, however, frequently leave much to be desired, and the soul is obviously not in constant control a great struggle is still being waged to achieve purification on all three levels. The lives of these initiates are faulty and their inexperience great, and a major attempt is instituted in this particular cycle to achieve soul fusion. When that is attained, then the third initiation is taken.”
So this is before the third degree and this is talking about faulty lives.
Rays and Initiations, page 595: “It is unification and a growing sense of oneness which is required in order to take this initiation, and it is the integrated personality which takes it.” That is the third degree. Unification and the sense of oneness.
And then, Rays and Initiations, 597: “... it is the one in which the spiritual man demonstrates his complete control of the personality.” So, this would seem to correlate with the faultiness demonstrated in relation to the opening of the fifth and sixth petal.
Beta: And we know in personality can be a glamour too.
Alpha: Yeah. Then the next question we discussed inbetween was in relation to the numbering of the chains and schemes and/or their given planetary names. And the question arose, Is there a value in numbering them which negates any value in the names already given? Or, is it a blind when DK says to us: ‘do not pay any attention to the names given to the planetary chains and schemes’?
Delta: So, what I would propose is that the schemes and chains and globes are all chakras of even greater beings .... and by analogy we have chakras. These chakras are ruled by different rays at different points. Then it was different planets at different points. It was brought out that, how can you say that these planets are chakras are going to be merged into a greater whole. …
Beta: I was just using ... sort of, the lower planets are merged into their synthesising plants and that doesn’t really change. That’s a valid basis for giving them planetary names.
Alpha: Um hmm. Yes, in other words, we look at our solar system and we say that the chakric position of a planet is pretty well fixed in a given solar system. That this planet is always this chakra.
Delta: But eventually, like within ourselves, for example, and no part of esoteric astrology, it says for advanced initiates they’ll just have the crown, the heart, the base of the spine, so it is true the other chakras have merged into those three. …
Beta: The triangle of chakras always controls, but chakras waken, even though the chakras are in particular alignment, they awaken and have disproportionate influence, you know, at given times, or cycles, months or years in the person’s life.
Alpha: The question is, can we have a system in which only three chakras are functioning? Not just dominating, but functioning, and all the others have disappeared?
Gamma: No, I don’t think so.
Delta: I didn’t say they all disappeared.
Alpha: Well, page 88 of Esoteric Astrology and page one sixty-something of this book … but, frankly, there is a possibility of a system existing without seven chakras. Now and I can substantiate that by the idea ... that … look at it this way, there is a point where Mercury and Venus and Earth disappear. Many of the lower planets disappear. All that is left is three synthesising planets. The three synthesising planets are chakras.
Delta: He says page 301, Esoteric Astrology:
“The awakening of the seventh centre, the centre at the base of the spine, by the soul working through the first or highest head centre and producing (as a consequence) the surging upwards of the kundalini fire. This, in its turn, produces fusion with the higher forces. When this takes place the three major centres in the body are The Head, The Heart, The base of spine.”
Alpha: Ah ha. But not the only ones … what I am trying to say is the average situation ... is that certain chakras dominate while other chakras still exist. But the possible situation, if you take the planetary analogy, is that there will be times when there are only four or five planets in our solar system because the obscuration is underway, mergent. There will be times there are three synthesizing planets. There will be times when there is only one. There will be times when there is none at all. So what does that say about chakras in relation to the system,because they have merged with the superior scheme?
Beta: That happens somewhat at death.
Alpha: Yes. That is right.
Beta: Abstraction on the atomic, probably etheric, atomic subplanes into the ...
Alpha: Yeah.
Beta: All that there can be atomic matter and whatever is highest can be abstracted in some way or another, or patterned into ...
Alpha: So it is a death process. It is not a normal process. But to have less than seven is part of a death process ... even though it may take place over millions of years on the larger cycle.
Gamma: Interesting in a human being when he dies he sort of switches out of one centre to the other.
Alpha: Yeah. And being switched off means essentially the centre disappears because centres are vortices of life energy.
Beta: That is what they talk about in terms of the moon.
Gamma: In the etheric body ... so the etheric body is condensed into this flashing point … all the etheric substance which holds the centres is condensed, and flashes out, you know (and then reappears).
Alpha: Yeah. So there is elevation and condensation. … Now this takes place in the chains as well. A healthy scheme will always have seven manifesting chains, although they can vary. The moon chain disappears, Neptune comes in over the horizon, Saturn changes its relationship, they change their relationship perhaps with each other.
Beta: Venus comes in later.
Alpha: The reason I say so is that once the moon chain was chain number three. Moon chain merges with the Earth chain, (that means the Earth chain exists of course. This is a point; not like Blavatsky said (something’s funny), and all of a sudden Saturn is the third chain and Neptune comes over the horizon, out of subjectivity. So what does this mean? …
Delta: Why couldn’t one ... said to disappear and another appear just as .... you know, one part of the body is meant to do one thing, but maybe in an emergency it can do something else.
Alpha: OK. Well, we are off on another question, How many chakras do there have to be functioning for a system to live? Do all seven have to function? And if less than seven function are we in a process of obscuration?
Gamma: … the solar system functions on only five (inaudible).
Alpha: ... five planes, but that’s different. …
Beta: That is challenging.
Alpha: Yeah, but isn’t that different if you say the first solar system functioned on three planes, ours functions on five, the next one functions on seven or whatever, that is different from saying how many chakras does a system have to have to be a living and vital system? Maybe it has to have, ten? And if it has less doesn’t that mean it is in process of obscuration?
Beta: The latter globes of a chain are in obscuration already because they are abstracting buddhically, usually. The last two globes of a chain are usually considered buddhic in nature.
Delta: Yeah. And synthetical.
Beta: ... that is somewhere in Cosmic Fire. The first one is archetypal, the second and third ... the second laya point comes in the third or something like this , third, fourth, fifth are most active in this particular cycle …