Delta: I would like to go back on what I am proposing and have you guys mount against what I was saying ... namely, that there are seven schemes or seven chains or seven chakras and that the rulerships of these schemes, chains, or chakras can change. What is wrong with that idea?
Alpha: I think that the influence exerted upon any one of them can change depending upon the sub levels which are affected by other systems. But that, fundamentally, each one of those subsets is a particular planet or, in other words, there is no such thing as leaving our seven schemes unqualified. We have seven or ten schemes in our solar system and there is no way to play roulette with them, and saying scheme number one is going to be Mars, now it is going to be Vulcan, now Jupiter ... but that, in fact, a scheme is the planet. And we just don’t have any names yet for a chain or a globe.
In other words, when we look at our solar system, Jupiter is Jupiter and stays Jupiter and it is a heart centre; it is never going to be the solar plexus. It is never going to be the base of the spine. It’s a certain number of a chain and that number of a chain is exactly equivalent to Jupiter and never to anything else. But, we’ll be influenced variously as various times by the other ones depending on the cycle, but Jupiter is Jupiter. And if we look on the chain level, the same thing would be the case if we had hard and fast planetary-like names for these chains. A chain is a chain because it occupies a certain function, but may be influenced by others at different times ... like it is an empty house in a horoscope.
Delta: But a house never can be empty because the house will always have a sign sign on it, and maybe a planet.
Alpha: Well, I think it is fundamentally a different thing, a house is an abstraction, whereas a chain, scheme, or globe is an actual system.
Delta: Why is that? Why couldn’t you say the house is a manifestation of the twelve petalled lotus within the human being? One of these tiers of twelve petalled lotuses.
Alpha: Well, when I said that a house is an abstraction I didn’t take to consideration the fact that ... You see, is a house an energy? No. OK. If it is not an energy it is not an entity … so then, in fact what is it?
Delta: It is like a blank screen. …
Alpha: ... Maybe we could say that houses are somehow divisions of prakriti.
Delta: So would we say that the chakras are divisions of prakriti and not entities. But, we would we say that the chains and schemes and globes are entities?
Alpha: The chakras are said to be vortices within lower prakriti caused by the impact of the will aspect. Cosmic Fire page 165:
“The centres in the human being deal fundamentally with the FIRE aspect in man, or with his divine spirit. They are definitely connected with the Monad, with the will aspect, with immortality, with existence, with the will to live, and with the inherent powers of Spirit. They are not connected with objectivity and manifestation, but with force, or the powers of the divine life. The correspondence in the Macrocosm can be found in the force which manipulates the cosmic nebulae and which by its whirling rotary motion eventually builds them into planets or spheroidal bodies.”
Its right here. Its all here.
Beta: … and the next paragraph:
“This force originates on cosmic mental levels, from certain great foci there, descends to the cosmic astral, forming corresponding cosmic focal points, and on the fourth cosmic etheric level (the buddhic plane of our solar system) finds its outlet in certain great centres. These centres are again reflected or reproduced in the three worlds of human endeavor. The Heavenly Men, therefore, have centres on three solar planes, a fact to be remembered.
a. On the monadic plane, the plane of the seven Rays.
b. On the buddhic plane, where the Masters and their disciples form the forty-nine centres in the bodies of the seven Heavenly Men.
c. On the fourth etheric physical plane, where the sacred planets, the dense bodies in etheric matter of the Heavenly Men, are to be found.”
Alpha: And then down here, page 166:
“The centres are formed entirely of streams of force, pouring down from the Ego, who transmits it from the Monad. In this we have the secret of the gradual vibratory quickening of the centres as the Ego first comes into control, or activity, and later (after initiation) the Monad, thus bringing about changes and increased vitality within these spheres of fire or of pure life force.”
The centres, therefore, when functioning properly, form the "body of fire". I feel like I am missing the main reference, but you get the idea.
Gamma: Yeah, it is in this reference and he explains also how the physical body in the physical plane came to be in this seven here. …
Alpha: Um –hmm. How it attracted … Well, what is the point here? In other words that the centres are only secondarily prakritic?
Delta: I see, whereas the houses are [primarily prakritic?]. And what connection, if any, would there be between the centres and the schemes and the globes.
Alpha: Centres, schemes, globes and chains are all centres. Globes are the centres of a Regent of a chain.
Delta: OK. I understand that, but wouldn’t there be a resonance between all these?
Alpha: Yes, there is. For example, the fourth globe, fourth chain, fourth scheme, they all resonate. There is a resonance. And at different times he tells us that the different systems, above, and above and above, influence a particular globe. That is what we want to focus on.
Gamma: It is on the numerical lines that … changes between planets occur and entities and stuff like that.
Alpha: ... on numerical resonance, yes.
Delta: So, why not just say the heart is ruled by Jupiter, or something?
Alpha: Well, why not just say the heart is Jupiter? Ah, but, wait – this is a problem. Is Jupiter an organ within the solar system which actually is the heart of the solar system, or, is there something called ‘the heart of the sun’? Is the heart of the sun the causal body of the Solar Logos and actually the triad of the Solar Logos? Is the central spiritual sun really the monad of the Solar Logos? In other words, look at yourself as a human being: What is your heart? Is your heart not a physical organ and, essentially, an etheric organ? … So, when you say that Jupiter is the heart, are we not confining the word heart to within the personality aspect of the Solar Logos?). Are we not saying that essentially the heart centre on all the personality levels is Jupiter? BUT, if you want to get to the heart centre in a higher sense of the sun, you have got to go to the causal body triad. It’s not Jupiter anymore.
Gamma: It’s Neptune, maybe ...
Alpha: Well … ok, but it can’t be even Neptune in that respect. See maybe Neptune is ... this ... Maybe Neptune is the twelve petalled heart within the head, but it is still etheric and personal.
Delta: So … then this would seem to imply again we should use the numbers for the centres because depending on which dimension of the centre we are talking about, and also how it is being influenced, it might be different rays influencing it, or different planets, or other centres influencing it. I don’t know if ‘influence’ is the right word (maybe ‘resonating’).
Alpha: There are going to be different centres. ... but rather than say Jupiter, you mean you should say number two or number six?
Beta: That was my point before. I think the numbers make a lot more sense if you are talking about the generic process. ... the activity of how the system is set up. But, the planets really give you specifics.
Alpha: ... qualitative. Planets are qualitative.
Delta: So you think he is just being difficult when he says, here are all the correlations but ignore them?
Alpha: I think he is saying, here are all the correlations, but those who can be convinced to ignore them, ignore them. In other words, if you are dissuaded by what I have just said you don’t deserve to penetrate into it anyway. And then …
Beta: Yeah!
Alpha: But ... because then he tells you about Jupiter and Venus mystically and occultly, and there they are. And then he even tells you that Earth is in the right place, you know, in this business. And therefore, something is cooking; it is the Tibetan’s method. Maybe we can learn more about the Tibetan’s method of leading and misleading us.
Beta: I think a lot of keys are in Blavatsky in sorting out the relationship of the planets to the chains and to the parts of the planetary constitution, the vehicle, and what planets rule the different parts of the planetary or solar constitution.
Alpha: Well, that is one of the questions, actually. We see that he says that he won’t tell you which they are, and yet this is something we should definitely address because it does tie right in with the whole question of the new astrology, doesn’t it. I mean, for instance, if the earth is the base of the spine and we have about two or three references that in different ways tell us that it is, then, he goes a long way to tell you that he won’t tell you what the earth is.
Beta: Why is it the base of the spine and not something else? It’s interesting. I always think that it is the base of the spine because the earth is in incarnation right now. If it were not in incarnation we would not be the base.
Alpha: OK, but this is very interesting, What do you mean that the earth is incarnation? You mean that the Planetary Logos is in incarnation on the physical globe the Earth?
Beta: Well, exactly. I think that the Heavenly Man is certainly taking, and the personality is taking an initiation. And initiation cannot be taken without a physical body ... or its etheric, yeah.
Gamma: This is work for the Heavenly Man?
Beta: I always understand the Heavenly Man as the ego, and the Planetary Logos as the monad, and then ray lords (Spirits before the Throne) as triadal factors, the Manasaputra actually.
Alpha: Divine Manasaputra?
Beta: ... as a mental entity. Yeah, I think that the names are used (inaudible) ...
Gamma: OK ... lets take the monad for example.
Beta: Monad ... Right now I think it is spirit before the throne. I think that is the most questionable, the most difficult. I think on the logoic planes it is obviously the Planetary Logos, but you could switch the Ray Lords and the Spirits before the Throne. I think the material has to be really closely read there; it is quite difficult. My initial impulse was to put the Ray Lords on the atmic plane, and the Spirits before the Throne on the monadic plane.
Gamma: What is a ray exactly ... I would say it is in the manasic.
Beta: Exactly. Umm. That is a good, well there is the physical manifestation of our physical planet. That is the physical, the planetary entity is astral. And then … it’s the planetary shell and it is the lunar....
Alpha: ... corpus (inaudible) ... what does this mean?
Beta: ... Our planet as we see it is associated with a lunar elemental, in the fourth month of gestation. …
Alpha: The physical matter aspect of our planet, and not the etheric part, or that too?
Beta: Right. The etheric is focused through the personality of the Planetary Logos.
Alpha: OK. Here’s actually what we are discussing. We are discussing a series of names which are associated with the Planetary Logos and which are usually considered to be equivalent to the Planetary Logos, and yet Beta is saying that there is a differentiation of the level to which these names should be applied. For instance, in other words, that the names represent different aspects of the entity called Planetary Logos, such as Heavenly Man representing the egoic nature of Planetary Logos ...
Beta: And buddhic ... the egoic-buddhic ... yeah.
Alpha: OK. And the Spirits before the Throne, which is a generic term, can be applied at any level, logoically or cosmically, but nevertheless the so-called Spirits before the Throne of the Planetary Logos pertain to a particular level of his manifestation.
Beta: I can’t decide since they are called the imperfect gods ...
Alpha: Isn’t every Planetary Logos of a certain stature called ‘an imperfect god’?
Beta: It is a good question. My biggest questions have to do with the Ray Lord and the Spirits before the Throne. But I would intuitively place the Spirits on the monadic plane, and the Ray Lords on the atmic plane.
Alpha: But, I would put forth that a Ray Lord, while they may be be associated with the manifestation of a Planetary Logos, is in fact a generic term. And that a ray itself is not serving a planet or a solar systemic being, or anything of the kind, but it is a being in cosmos independent of a planetary or solar systemic vehicle.
Beta: These are the questions I have been having. I think perhaps you are right. Then, in that case, I would put in this one case (I don’t think I have any questions about the other names) I put a Ray Lord on the second plane because that is where the rays touch down in the seven planes. It is just they become individualised on the third and I always associated the rays with individualisation. But, I think it makes much more sense in the light of what you said, that it is the Spirits before the Throne who are individualised, and they are definitely planetary in nature.
Alpha: OK. Now, the throne of the Spirits before the Throne can be considered the throne of the logos.
Beta: Right.
Alpha: And that the Planetary Logoi could be considered Spirits before the Throne of the Logos. So, almost invariably when DK uses the word logos, its the Solar Logos. Otherwise he specifies.
Beta: Yes, solar, exactly. They do not occupy the throne, as DK says, because they are the imperfect gods.
Alpha: OK. Mistakes are made because of over differentiation and because of under differentiation. So the question is … we have to decide here whether we have one entity with many names, or one entity with may parts to which the names apply. So the question, When you are looking at Planetary Logoi, can you consider them as Spirits before the Throne of the Solar Logos, pure and simple?
Beta: Oh No; the higher names are much more inclusive. And the lower names are less inclusive because they’re involved in the lower incarnation process or lower vehicles.
Alpha: Well, this is something that I have been hearing you say for years, so maybe it is time to try to clarify: Is a Spirit before the Throne not a Planetary Logos but an aspect of a Planetary Logos? Is that what you are saying?
Beta: Well, since a Planetary Logos has to incarnate through a gigantic host of entities and beings, the different strata, these are names associated with the planes for some reason ...
Alpha: OK, I am getting it. In other words, the Planetary Logos as he manifests on plane “X” is called “this”, in other words, Planetary Logos – as he manifests on what plane – is called the Spirit before the Throne?
Beta: At this point I will say the atmic plane. … because I have changed and I put the Ray Lords on the monadic ...
Alpha: So, the Planetary Logos as he manifests on the monadic plane is called?
Beta: ... the Ray Lord. … There is a section (in the 500’s) that deal with entities that have different numbers, or increasing numbers of permanent atoms …
Alpha: I’ve got it, I am looking right at it, page 533.
Beta: These are the hosts of beings that incarnate in any one incarnation of any planetary or solar entity. (The term entity I would use on the astral plane.)
Alpha: Well notice that a Heavenly Man is here mentioned, inferred, as a Planetary Logos. Planetary Logos is not mentioned.
Beta: Right, because it is on the cosmic or prakritic planes.
Alpha: Oh, wait a second. Now hold it. But a Solar Logos is mentioned, and is also on the cosmic, or prakritic planes (see page 533.) This is one of those moments when it seems that the word Heavenly Man is being approximately used and not used in any technical sense.
Beta: There is the lesser heavenly men on the buddhic level.
Alpha: Yeah, that is where we say, that this is a generic term.
Beta: But, he nevertheless puts them on the buddhic level.
Alpha: Well, what will that mean?
Beta: That is the name I would give to the Planetary Logos on the buddhic level … the five number two.
Alpha: Yeah. You see it is right there, the inference there is we have a logos, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva ...
Beta: I think that must be used loosely.
Alpha: Yeah ... I think there are times of loose use … and it causes confusion.
Beta: It is meant to.
Alpha: And there is another place for Heavenly Man ... used as the personality of the Planetary Logos. ... you saw in the tabulation.
Beta: But then the nature of the Planetary Logos’s personality is a soul-infused personality, even though it is astrally polarised as a personality.
Alpha: ... soul-infused, but astrally polarised, personality?
Beta: Yeah, but it is astrally polarised.
Alpha: But so is the Solar Logos’s personality astrally polarised, so is Venus’s personality (inaudible).
Beta: (inaudible) yeah, for some purpose of work, and perhaps because it is the second solar system or the first. …
Alpha: OK. By the way this is a wonderful tabulation in as much as it gives us names for different entities that are concerned in the globe, chain, scheme system. ‘Regents’ for planetary chains, ‘Lords’ for globes.
Beta: I think this is one of the richest sections of the entire book. Actually it will be explained later.
Alpha: Yeah. Well you see we have a whole section coming up on entities. If we ever get to the section on entities we are going to want to say what entities are playing upon the playground we described this morning. You see, in a sense we jumped ahead and started talking about chakras before we talked about the entities, which is natural enough because we are human and we’re interested in our own chakra system, etc. But coming back to this whole thing, as a Planetary Logos manifests, his manifestation is through a series of entities. And the entities have names.
Beta: And he also has three periodical vehicles which I would call the Planetary Logos, the Heavenly Man and Divine Manasaputra, the most prominent ones.
Alpha: OK, but Heavenly Man equals Divine Manasaputra equals the causal body (or it as a vehicle on the cosmic mental plane, third subplane).
Beta: Right, because of the status of our Planetary Logos.
Alpha: ... third subplane.
Beta: ...in our case I am not sure.
Alpha: I think he mentions it some place … Well, again, the inference to me is that the Solar Logos also has a causal body on the cosmic mental plane ... right?
Beta: Yes, but it is on the first sub-plane.
Alpha: Is it first? I don’t know why it shouldn’t be on the second, frankly, considering what the Solar Logos is doing, except for his order of being. … However, very interestingly, our Solar Logos is not a sacred Solar Logos because he has place within the quaternary of seven systems. Neverth-less, how can he be a heart centre and not sacred?
Beta: ... he is undergoing initiation.
Delta: The heart centre is part of the lower four.
Alpha: Well that is right, actually.
Beta: But, then again, the life principle is anchored in the heart.
Alpha: It is, but that doesn’t mean how much it is unfolded ...
Gamma: It is anchored in the lower four.
Delta: Yeah.
Alpha: ... So the Solar Logos we agree is not sacred ...
Beta: ... there is so much potential ...
(laughter)
Alpha: Well, I mean, because He has a problem, He somehow is hoping to achieve cosmic mental polarisation and he has not yet achieved the third cosmic initiation ... he is working on it. Our Planetary Logos is working on the second cosmic initiation, and the Solar Logos has to measure up the fourth cosmic initiation, by the time he quits his system. … (this is all in Cosmic Fire.)
Beta: OK. Do they have direct correspondences to our first four initiations? That is the question.
Alpha: Ah, correspondences, but there are intervening cycles which throw you off. Its a very big subject.
Beta: Right Exactly, I have held off on that where he is ...
Alpha: The point is ...we have got to get some idea of the sacredness and non-sacredness....
Beta: The Heavenly Man is going through the fourth initiation.
Alpha: ... but not cosmic ...
Beta: But not cosmic. Exactly.
Alpha: Whoah! oh! Look at this. ... I found something, page 578 of Treatise on Cosmic Fire. This is about monads of love ... but they are all monads of love:
“There is a direct channel, as we know, between the atomic subplane on each plane. This is more or less true of each subplane and its corresponding higher subplane numerically, and there is, therefore, a direct and quite expansive channel between the second subplane on all planes, enabling the Monads of love to link up with peculiar facility with all their vehicles when composed of second subplane matter. After initiation, the causal body is found on the second subplane of the mental plane, and monadic control then commences.”
Beta: ... the monadic control ...
Alpha: Now, this either means that the monad is active at all five initiations, which apparently it can be conceived as being, because the monad is somehow, in other words, it is Sanat Kumara behind the Christ, etc. etc. Or, it means that the causal body does not move onto the second subplane until the third initiation, which would be one step lower than what I think may be correct.
Beta: Um-hmm, same thing, third or fourth, I would not argue with ...
Delta: It doesn’t say which initiation. It just says ‘after’ initiation … with a small ‘i’ ...
Alpha: That is the problem. ... initiation ...
Beta: I think at one point where she says the fourth initiation moving onto the second subplane. She says ... generally the case.
Alpha: But it can’t be so, because the second subplane is gone: it is just triad after that point.
Beta: Oh. No, it has to be. The sutratma and the antahkarana are still there, the thread soul, because the triad still needs a thread soul to contact the personality; the monad still needs a channel to control the personality.
Alpha: Yeah ... but could it not withdraw all that at will, it doesn’t even have to incarnate.
Beta: That is true, but it has to have that sutratma.
Alpha: So what would be focused on. It has no causal body though.
Beta: That is right. But the causal body has been transmuted into a sutratma.
Alpha: So what is it that is focused on the second subplane? ....not the causal body. The causal body is gone.
Beta: Well, no. At the fourth initiation you still have a causal body ...until it has been absolutely obliterated. It is just that at the end of the fourth initiation the causal body is obliterated.
Alpha: At the end of the fourth initiation it is obliterated; by the fifth initiation it is dispersed. But, wouldn’t you say that it is non functional after obliteration?
Beta: Oh yeah, no but … he says that the fourth and fifth initiations can be taken in one lifetime.
Alpha: Yes.
Beta: In the past people quite often died from the fourth initiation.
Alpha: Yes ...
Beta: It can be taken in the same lifetime because something physical that can convey the life and co-ordinate it on the lower planes exists, some mechanism exists, and it may not be the fully formed mayavarupa but I think it is the thread soul in this interim.
Alpha: Well, wait a second. Let’s see if we can clarity this, at least in my mind.
Beta: The antahkarana has two natures. The first, it just unifies the threefold lower mind. It is the lower ....
Alpha: No, no I know that the antahkarana is buddhic ... the buddhic and love petals of the egoic lotus, strangely enough I just ran into that reference …
Beta: Please, let me see that cite; I have got to see that.
Alpha: It says the connection between the love petals and buddhic plane, first it describes the first part of the antahkarana, mental unit, manasic permanent atom ... then the love petals and the buddhic level.
Beta: Right ... and then the third is ...
Alpha: The third is not specified in the same way. The third is the monad and triad and all the personality vehicles; it is not like an exact correspondence.
Beta: What book was that? I have to get that citation.
Alpha: Cosmic Fire, I was just reading it … By the way, I have found the section where it says, page 590, that the Logos must measure up to the fourth initiation in this solar system. And elsewhere it says he is taking the third, the goal or for our present logos is the third, but ‘goal’ is an interesting thing; it is an immediate goal. In the middle of 590 he says:
“Then, in a dual synthesis, they will pass on into the third system, that in which the Power aspect is developed, and the head centres will be complete. This achieved, our Logos has triumphed, and measured up to the sixth cosmic Initiation, just as He should measure up in this system to the fourth.”
So the goal of our Logos is the third cosmic initiation and by the time it is all over in this system he must measure up to the fourth. Now, ‘measure up’ is an interesting thing. Because ...
Gamma: ... it doesn’t mean that he takes it?
Alpha: When a man “measures up” to an initiation it doesn’t certainly mean that he takes it, because the time may not be right, but it has to do with the fact that an initiate is ‘initiate’ before he is initiated. So ‘measure up’ is an interesting word. Anyway ...
Beta: How does that phase transition?
Alpha: OK. ... well I probably could find in the 300’s the section where it says that the first cosmic initiation is the man’s fifth degree. That the second cosmic initiation is the goal of the Planetary Logos, and the third cosmic initiation is the goal of the Solar Logos. And ‘meanwhile’ our Planetary Logos is taking the fourth initiation.
Beta: Right.
Delta: Say that again. …
Alpha: Well, the point is the goal of our Planetary Logos is the second cosmic initiation. He is taking the fourth.
Delta: So is the second cosmic the sixth?
Alpha: So, basically what it means is that the system of nine initiations ... or ten, or whatever ... exists between the first cosmic and the second cosmic. And that our Planetary Logos has not yet taken the second cosmic initiation; He is involved in a fourth interim initiation.
Delta: ... in the first series.
Alpha: ... in the system following the first cosmic initiation.
Beta: He also says that on page 570. That in the greater Manvantara the logos is to take the fourth cosmic ...
Alpha: Greater Manvantara. … OK. I have got a cross reference, 590 and 570. … and 384. Lets read that.
Beta: “The solar Logos has for objective nine initiations, the third cosmic Initiation being His goal.”
Alpha: OK. Do you know what that hint just said? At least in my feeble mind? It just said to me, OK, let me just see what I just thought I said, I don’t want to jump before I know what I am doing. “The solar Logos has for objective nine initiations, the third cosmic Initiation being His goal.” [TAPE ENDS]
We are talking about the initiatory sequence in the lives of the Planetary and Solar Logos without which we cannot become initiates of the third degree. Goal and Objectives: Page 384 of Cosmic Fire. What seems to be the case here, is if an “objective” is less than a “goal”; we are going to have an interesting situation of the Solar Logos having to pass through nine interim initiations before he achieves the third cosmic initiation.
To reiterate, we have the situation of the Solar Logos having to pass through nine interim initiations … before he achieves his goal of the third cosmic initiation. Therefore he has a long way to go in this system.
Delta: Once an entity takes nine initiations then they are in the next kingdom.
Alpha: They are living in the next field.
Beta: On 590, he says he should measure up to the four, but on 570 he says he is to take the fourth.
Alpha: But, is the fourth one of the nine? …
Beta: Oh, I think wrong ...
Alpha: I think not.
Beta: That’s interesting. Man has for objective five initiations, the first cosmic being his goal. And that is because the five planes of the Monad are, and the five planes of planetary life, that is speaking generally, for generic humanity.
Alpha: OK, We have an interesting thing here: we have five, seven and nine. Which incidentally are the numbers associated with the first solar system, the second and the third.
Beta: That is true. And if humans take five initiations they are still attached to the planet. If they take seven or nine initiations, the sixth initiation frees you into other spheres. And if you take the seventh that means you are here on the planet; you have committed yourself to something on the planet. And the ninth as well. So, then that means, as an initiate you are a part of the host who actually embodies the Planetary Logos and what has to be initiated.
Alpha: OK. So it is the path of Earth Service there for those very difficult eighth and ninth initiations; very difficult to take within our planetary sphere, and which commits you to the path of service to be part of the host of our Planetary Logos in acting out his purposes. But the sixth initiation could send you elsewhere out of the planetary initiatory regime. That is interesting.
But a lot people get into trouble right in this area here because there is a differentiation in the types of initiations. Now, first, he has for objective, no matter where he is, five initiations. The first cosmic initiation being his goal. So, quite clearly, a goal is a more advanced thing than an objective. Our Planetary Logos has for his objective seven initiations; the second cosmic initiation being his goal. He is on number four now. Correct? … four and seven.
Now, and by the way, what is interesting here is that he is seeking to master the fourth astral subplane, the fourth cosmic astral subplane. So he is basically taking the initiations of the cosmic astral plane. Isn’t he?
Beta: Exactly. … [reference searches]
Alpha: I said that our Planetary Logos is seeking to master the cosmic astral subplanes. And I remember a place where it said that Venus is working on five, and is being buddhically influenced. Whereas, we are working on four and are being manasically influenced … by Venus?
Beta: Yeah. Well, we’re working, we completed, we’ve mastered a certain number, I think maybe four ... we are working on the fifth. We should have been on the fifth along with Venus, but because of the moon chain.
Alpha: That is right. We should have been on the fifth [subplane of the cosmic astral]. But we are on the fourth now. But we have mastered three. We are on the fourth having mastered three.
Beta: That is probably true. Yeah. That makes sense. Because the fourth kumara is coming in.
Alpha: … Is this Sanat Kumara, or one of the esoteric kumaras?
Beta: Sanat Kumara is the fifth kumara sometimes. Spoken of as the fifth ray.
Alpha: Yes. But often times he stands for the three buddhas of activity as ...
Beta: ... the fourth ...
Alpha: ... or is he the seventh altogether? I mean the king of the kumaras surrounded by three below, three above ... or something like that.
Beta: This is a great mystery. This is very interesting. It has to do with the Lipika Lords (inaudible) ... this and that. … (inaudible) ...
(laughter)
Alpha: People laugh for different reasons.
Delta: I like the ‘this and that’ ...
Alpha: OK. I said check 373, now, the Solar Logos has for his objective nine initiations. Well this is so interesting because nine is the number that is going to characterise the next solar system. Seven characterises this solar system. Five characterised the solar system before. But now, let’s see if we can pin this down. We have got the Planetary Logos pinned down to the fourth interim initiation , by the way is it also true that Sanat Kumara is also taking, in his own way, the fourth initiation? Is it also true, not just that the Solar Logos is, but that Sanat Kumara is. Or when they say ...
Gamma: It is one of these intermediate ones?
Alpha: Uh-ha. An intermediate initiation, interim initiation. By the way, notice how it is impossible to generalise, how man has five, the Planetary Logos has seven and the Solar Logos has nine. You cannot just take from a single plane and transpose it onto other planes. Five plus seven is twelve, plus nine is twenty-one.
Beta: He also says a thing later about the rounds, some planets complete their evolution in three rounds, some in five, some in seven.
Alpha: Does he say actually three rounds any place?
Beta: Yes, he does. One in three and one in nine. …
Alpha: OK. But what we haven’t pinned down yet is the initiation in which our Solar Logos is involved presently. And I believe it is the fourth. And I think there are two fourth initiations involved here. I believe that the interim initiation in which our Solar Logos is presently involved is the fourth. …
Beta: He says in this chain.
Alpha: What? Solar Logoic chain?
Beta: Well, he is mid way through his career upon the cosmic path of initiation.
Alpha: Where? Where does he say that? 384, b. OK. Our solar logos has for his objective:
“b. He is midway through His career upon the cosmic Path of Initiation, and consequently is to take the fourth Initiation in this chain.”
What does that mean? Because a chain to a Solar Logos ... ahhh.
Beta: A Planetary Logos.
Alpha: A chain to a Solar Logos has got to be a scheme. How could a Solar Logos take his fourth initiation on an isolated little chain on the Earth scheme.
Beta: Oh. No, no, but it is the Planetary Logos. It is our scheme that is taking the fourth initiation in this chain. I’m sorry.
Alpha: No, no, this is the logos, the logos of our scheme. He is in physical incarnation...
Beta: No, the Planetary Logos of our scheme.
Alpha: Oh. Planetary. Yeah, quite right, led off the track ...
Beta: Well maybe not actually. The Planetary Logos has for objective seven initiations, the second cosmic being his goal. He is at the fourth. But, it looks to me like these are the nine human initiations.
Alpha: They overlap don’t they?
Beta: Yes, in this solar system.
Alpha: In other words in this initiation. But wait there is a problem, here is the problem, initiation six, seven, eight and nine cannot be of the same order as the planetary logos’s interim initiations, because, if they were they would equate to the fourth planetary logoic initiation. In other words, you would say this: that an initiate of the ninth degree is equivalent to a Planetary Logos taking the fourth interim initiation. And that is too far.
Delta: Why?
Alpha: Because a ninth degree initiate simply refuses the cosmic physical plane.
Delta: I see. Because that being is not the same as the Planetary Logos. …
Alpha: Yeah. But you see, the tendency would be to do this. The tendency would be to say, ah-ha, fifth initiation ...
Beta: .... speaking locally.
Delta: ... after that becoming a solar life ... not a planetary being.
Alpha: Yeah, exactly, you would say, Now you are ready to be a Planetary Logos! But it is not of the same order because we have got globe lives; we have Lord lives; we have Regent lives; then Planetary Logoic lives. So this business of the fourth, fifth, sixth. In other words, we are given three great men: a man, a planetary logos and a solar logos. If, in between them, however, are other great lives, which are of a far greater magnitude than man and have their own initiatory sequences to undergo, like Sanat Kumara, the globe lord, a regent of a chain.
Beta: But if he speaks is speaking locally about the goals in this particular mahamanvantara, on page 570 he says: its in this greater mahamanvantara, the solar cycle ...
Alpha: Yeah. You can take the fourth initiation ...
Beta: Or fourth cosmic initiation.
Alpha: OK. Fourth cosmic initiation. Look, all I was trying to figure out here is where our Logos stands in the interim initiations.
Beta: Yeah, but he qualifies this on the next page after the chart, he says, if we link this up, with that earlier imparted concerning initiation and the sun Sirius we will have the seven paths. We will have a clue to the triple cosmic path. (Page 386.) “If we link this up with that earlier imparted concerning initiation and the sun Sirius, we will have a clue to the triple cosmic Path.”
Alpha: Well, what is the triple cosmic path?
Beta: Six of the paths collapsing into three.
Alpha: Absolute sonship?
Beta: That is the Sirian path. … It is everything but the Sirian. The Sirian is left because it is at the centre. It is the egoic body of the Solar Logos. It has to be ...
Alpha: The Sirian? Wait, wait, you can’t say the Sirian path is the egoic body of the Solar Logos.
Beta: No, no, no. But it is actually the correspondence to the dense physical body of the permanent atom left over after pralaya. Because all those egos who failed have to be sent to Sirius for tremendous manasic stimulation.
Alpha: Could it be said that there are egos who failed, or could it be said there are second ray monads for whom it is not natural to have manas.
Beta: Yeah. Exactly. It is in a sacred context, it is true. …
Alpha: Now let us hold our horses here for just a second. Here is my impression. That Sirius being the cosmic initiate of the fifth order is stimulating our sun who is a cosmic initiate of the fourth order, in the same way that Venus is stimulating our Planetary Logos. In other words, let’s that say our Earth is mastering the fourth cosmic astral subplane; Venus has mastered the fourth and is working on the fifth and is buddhically influenced by the sixth. Let us say now that our Solar Logos of the fourth order is seeking to master the fourth cosmic mental subplane; and that Sirius which has mastered the fourth cosmic mental subplane is working upon the fifth cosmic mental subplane. Now, here is the point. Just because their causal bodies are on the higher cosmic mental plane does not mean they have necessarily mastered the lower cosmic mental planes.
Beta: Right.
Alpha: So I am throwing in analogy. I am saying that five is to four as five is to four.
Beta: … that is certainly true ...
Gamma: … that Sirius leads to manasic.
Alpha: Sure. Sure. And therefore I can prove, from that point of view, and stop me if I am incorrect here, that Sirius also has for its goal the third cosmic initiation, but is working on the fifth interim, just the way Venus has for her goal the second cosmic initiation but is working upon the fifth interim. Whereas Earth is working on the fourth interim. That is all. A thought.....
Beta: Um-hmm. That is great. I think that makes a great deal of sense. I still have these nagging questions about the sequences of seven planes. Because if the Solar Logos is not down this far, on this level, certainly the correspondences are there in this Sirian business. I ask myself about the orders of magnitude, the Planetary Logos I have seen as profoundly distinct from the Solar Logos. But I think it is much more closely related, and then that means the sun in the system of seven suns is much more local than ... it may involve another set of seven planes.
Alpha: OK. Wait a second. Let’s see if we can follow that. Where are we?
Beta: Let’s not get too abstract.
Alpha: Have we just gone off the deep end?
Beta: Yes. I think we have. Let’s just forget it. Its too ....
Alpha: By the way, one thing should be ... in relation to what you just said ...
Beta: The great law of Sirius is the law of karma on the third subplane of the cosmic mental plane, which law really controls our logos and his actions in the same way as the ego controls the human personality.
Alpha: OK. Well that tends to substantiate what we are thinking, that Sirius is really focused on the fifth subplane of the cosmic mental plane.
… You could say that Sirius is an influence that stimulates the higher self of the Solar Logos the way Venus is an influence which stimulates the higher self of the Earth egoic lotus. But you can’t say that one is the egoic lotus of another.
Beta: It is just the source of the energy that qualifies it.
Alpha: That is right. Now there is a place where the ways in which the logoi come down. How far down they come is listed. And it is listed in four tabulations. And it is somewhere between the three hundred and five hundreds, in Cosmic Fire. …
(Tape pause)