Alpha: OK. Lets take a horoscope.
Delta: Well we’ll take a horoscope of a disputed rising sign. So take the United States’ horoscope. We’ll agree that the United States was born July 4, 1776, at six in the afternoon with Sagittarius rising. …
[snip: much deleted here as discussion ensued over usefulness of reviewing this chart.]
Delta: Well what I would like to focus on is what stage is the United States? Maybe we should take a person instead of a country.
Alpha: Maybe. Because the United States is not even a disciple yet.
Delta: OK. Let’s take a person.
[snip]
Alpha: Someone we know is an initiate of some standing, or at least a disciple; What about Alice Bailey? …
Delta: Alice Bailey thinks she has Pisces rising.
Alpha: She only says ‘might’. She says it adds up, but she never confirmed it. Cause she is a mediator and that is why she said it.
Beta: Right. Want to give her Leo, 8 Leo rising, is that it?
Alpha: Yeah. Leo rising, 11 degrees or something. …
Delta: Let’s do Alice Bailey.
Alpha: Want to do HPB. That is not disputed.
Delta: I don’t want to do Alice Bailey. Look, we think she is a third degree initiate. And therefore we should go Sidereal.
Alpha: No. I don’t think that. …
(tape paused)
Delta: So given that Alice Bailey was born June 16, 1880 at around 7:25, in the morning, rectified, so approximately that time. That would give her Jupiter, the midheaven, Saturn in Aries, Neptune and Pluto in Taurus, Venus and the sun in Gemini, the South Node and Mercury in Cancer, the Ascendant and Mars in Leo, Uranus in Virgo and the Moon in Libra. With a Ray structure of Ray 2 soul; Ray 1 personality; Ray 1 mental; Ray 2 astral; Ray 7 physical.
How would we interpret this chart esoterically. By that I mean let’s start off with the Ray 2 soul. Ray two is ruled by the three signs of the triangle of Virgo, Pisces and Gemini. And it is also ruled by the planet Jupiter, Jupiter and the Sun. Virgo is esoterically ruled by the Moon veiling Vulcan or Neptune.
Beta: Ehhh, Neptune. … in parenthesis. But say for the second ray ruler, next to the sun, because it is a second ray soul.
Gamma: Yeah, Neptune.
Delta: So, given that we’ve decided we have decided that she is sensitive to her soul ray and the soul ray is two. … First of all, what chakras would ray two be operating through? She is a ray two soul. How is she polarised chakra wise. And how would that affect her chakras?
Alpha: Well, the heart centre, and the heart within the head.
Gamma: And possibly the ajna. Because ajna is the connection with the Hierarchy … And it sometimes represents the second ray principle.
Alpha: Un-ha. It does. So we can look at, what does it say about an initiate, up to the third degree.
Gamma: You have that in the triangle here.
Delta: Well, usually it says from between the first and third the crown is ruled by Uranus, the ajna is ruled by Mercury and throat is ruled by Saturn.
Alpha: Between the first and the third, it says that?
Delta: Yes, as a general trend.
Beta: But there is a persuasive influence of Uranus on the throat.
Delta: Yeah. I agree.
Alpha: Heart, seven head centres, and two many-many-petalled lotuses. …
Delta: Well, I am just giving the rule from the book. Obviously it could vary, but in Esoteric Healing somewhere it says disciples between the first and third initiation, after the first, but before the third … let’s say we are assuming Alice Bailey is after the first and before the third.
Alpha: … No we are not; she is the third degree.
Delta: That is why I said I didn’t want to do her chart. The third degree should be sidereal.
Alpha: No, but I don’t think it should be Sidereal. How can we just assume that ...
Beta: It’s both. I always assume both. Because you always have to operate through the public and through your lower vehicles, which are very much conditioned by this tropical ...
Delta: I didn’t want to choose a chart of a third degree initiate because I think their charts get analysed differently than most other charts. I’d like to come up with a methodology for analysing somebody who is on the path but ...
Alpha: Why don’t you just pretend it is tropical?
Delta: OK. I’ll pretend it is tropical. And, I’ll pretend she is not a third degree initiate.
Beta: OK. She had Leo rising. First of all a person, whoever this is, has Leo rising. And I find, in terms of the rulers of Leo, the first set of rulers for the personality I assign as the trigon as Jupiter, Saturn, because Saturn rules the solar permanent atom and Jupiter are the three solar energies that pass, that channels the agent for the three solar energies from the physical.
Delta: One second. How did Jupiter and Saturn tie in with Leo? I missed that. It is the first set of rulers for Leo? Leo isn’t ruled by Saturn.
Beta: It is. It’s veiled. The sun veils Jupiter, Saturn on the first level. It veils Neptune on the second; Uranus on the third, as far as I can see.
Delta: Well, I have never seen it the same. As sun veils Jupiter-Saturn.
Beta: Yeah, but I do that all the time. I know maybe I shouldn’t deal with hypothetical … but, I assumed that immediately, she has Jupiter, Saturn conjunct. Jupiter-Saturn rules the status quo establishment. It means that any disciple, particularly of third degree, has to handle the establishment and put them in their place. And if you have a conjunction of something favorable it is important.
Alpha: Well, it comes from the assumption that no Sun, or Moon is a true ruler of any sign. That is what he is saying.
Beta: And on the discipleship, here the Neptune level, she has Neptune square Mars which is a perfect signature for the third degree if you think of the moon veiling Neptune instead of Vulcan. Or, just the Moon-Mars, which is obviously a factor itself. But the moon can also veil Neptune and certain subtle identifications are made with Mars-Neptune aspects, it’s said, in the third initiation.
Delta: Well, I guess wherever people want to go with is fine, but I’d like to get some simple building blocks that are ...
Beta: These are absolutely straight forward. I used this for ten years.
Delta: I think what you are saying is good especially in terms of the rising sign. (inaudible) obviously for the ray two soul we should look at her ascendant. Well, whatever the ray is of the soul we should look at her ascendant. So what I am saying is Leo, and Leo is ruled by the sun and the sun veiling Neptune. And for the third degree initiate the sun veiling Uranus.
Beta: Yeah, but as a personality too you need to put that first factor, the contact with the public.
Delta: So you said that ...
Beta: Jupiter-Saturn. I just depict it as a triangle.
Delta: OK. … I am not saying your opinion is wrong but it is not in any of the books.
Beta: It is.
Alpha: There is a place where Jupiter is interestingly connected with Leo.
Delta: Some of the triangles. But not the rulerships.
Alpha: No, there is a funny connection there of Jupiter with Leo that makes you think that it is the ruler.
Delta: Well, also Jupiter rules the traditional astrology, going back thousands of years, the fire trigon of Aries, Leo, Sagittarius.
Alpha: But, nevertheless. We don’t have to approach it that way. Let’s see what you’re trying to get at. In other words, this is for you to use the group mind here to help clarify a method of an approach to the chart that you have been working on and thinking about.
Delta: So, let’s assume Jupiter is important because it is a major second ray planet also.
Alpha: ... in this case.
Delta: ... in any case.
Alpha: Jupiter, by definition, rules the second ray. Right? Because she is a second ray soul.
Delta: Yeah. Because she is a second ray soul. If you were a first ray soul, you would use Pluto. Or, a third ray soul, use Saturn. And then, we would of course always look at the Ascendant which would yield subrays of the soul. Or, else the same ray as the soul.
Alpha: Um-hmm.
Beta: The ascendant?
Delta: Yeah. Because the Ascendant is the soul’s potential in this incarnation ... where he is to develop, right?
Beta: You are not looking at the Sun from the soul’s ray are you?
Alpha: OK, I have the reference, page 297. It could be variously interpreted:
“In connection with the Mutable Cross, the rays of the Sun in a threefold form (combining the lowest energies of the threefold Sun) pour into and through the man, via Jupiter. Jupiter is the agent of the second ray which the Sun expresses—cosmically and systemically.”
Delta: OK, but that is for the mutable cross, because Jupiter rules Sagittarius and Pisces.
Alpha: Well that is what she thinks. The Mutable Cross is the orthodox ruler.
Delta: But she is not on the Mutable Cross.
Alpha: No. No.
Beta: She is. She is a Gemini.
Delta: She is not, in consciousness, she is not on the Mutable Cross.
Beta: Yeah, but she is still a Gemini. And if you say it sidereally where she is a Taurus. She is on the fixed cross. … As far as I am concerned, she is both.
Alpha: In a sub sense she would be both. And therefore you would have to consider both. All I have to say is this ties in Jupiter with Leo. It is in the Leo chapter.
Gamma: Is not Jupiter in exultation in Leo.
Alpha: No, it is in Cancer ....in exultation.
Delta: But this doesn’t tie it in with Leo. It says in connection with the Mutable Cross. It doesn’t say in connection with Leo.
Alpha: It is right in the Leo chapter. Followed by the statement:
“Hence the triple relation of the Sun to Leo which is unique in our solar system, and hence the importance of the triangle which controls the man born under Leo.”
Here he reiterates: “the Sun, Uranus …”
Delta: “The Sun, Uranus, and Neptune” – not Jupiter.
Alpha: No. But, Jupiter is suspiciously present right before this. I think there is a hint there. Anyway, its ....
Delta: Well, what everyone is saying is good, but what I … would like to narrow it down to two or three or four factors of really major relevance. So, another point that had been brought up, since she is a disciple we would especially look at the rulers of the fixed cross. In other words I am trying to do one thing at a time. … And also shift it away from the normal way of interpreting charts.
Alpha: What I see as being the important thing that is really on your mind, is to shift it away from the usual catch-all’s.
Delta: Yes. … so the esoteric ruler of Taurus is Vulcan. I’ll just use the esoteric rulers of Leo, Neptune. Of Scorpio, Mars and Pluto. And for Aquarius I will use Jupiter. So all these planets would be important.
You see, by listing these things already. Just with this one thing we’ve, looking at the soul, we have so many things to look at. And I agree these things are really there to look at. We have to use our intuition as to what is most important, but I think it would be somehow good if we could put this in a way would be a simple building block for somebody.
Beta: Third initiation. Moon-Mars. Moon veils Neptune. They are in conflict. They are in square in her chart. They are also in the cusp.
Delta: She is working on the third initiation.
Alpha: This is something she probably passed in the life. … What I am trying to say is because she was a preacher in her early life it obviously showed that she had second initiation capabilities. And you know there was a certain point at which she probably passed the third degree. In other words, the Moon-Mars square could have indicated that possibility.
Delta: OK. So let’s say her soul ray is two. And given that she is a second ray soul, how would we tie these various factors in with the third initiation, assuming we decided she has finished the second initiation and is working on the third.
Alpha: Or just what does it say about her soul expression, in general? … Well, it says, it is extremely authoritative. And forget the pioneering part, although that is there because her soul planet is on the midheaven. I mean that she is a prominent example in the public of a second ray soul demonstration.
Delta: And what if her soul planet were, let’s say, in the twelfth house?
Alpha: She would be much more subjective, wouldn’t you say?
Delta: Well, I would say on one hand. But on the other, wouldn’t somebody approaching the third initiation be starting to go past the limitations of the houses?
Alpha: It depends on how you interpret the houses.
Delta: Because he talks you know, that the houses deal more with the mutable cross. It is like more the field of objective experience.
Alpha: But what if you literally do interpret the houses as he does: causal body first house.
Delta: ... on the higher level.
Alpha: That is a big thing. To say causal body first house. That is not necessarily .......
Beta: Mars is trine Jupiter. It is profoundly creative.
Delta: Well, what chakras do we think she is working on for the third initiation.
Alpha: Well, she is a visionary and a telepath. Tremendous ajna centre.
Delta: So the third initiation, we are working on the ajna chakra.
Alpha: And look at that Sun-Venus conjunction in the telepathic sign Gemini.
Delta: What do we think rules her ajna chakra? Or let’s say Jupiter is the main ...
Gamma: Ajna is ruled by Mercury.
Alpha: Venus and Mercury wouldn’t you say.
Delta: But that is a general rule. What about her personally?
Alpha: But how do we know, I mean wouldn’t you say that her telepathic receptivity is reflected by a Mercury-Cancer position? But in general, soul telepathy, Venus in Gemini, you couldn’t get anything more indicative. And it is a second ray planet also in one respect.
Delta: Well, I guess I am trying to shift this away. Not that I think that the signs and houses are irrelevant, but I want to get it away from the old context, and not that the old context is meaningless, but I want to put it into a new context, such as the chakras. Cause he says this at the end of Esoteric Astrology: there will be a new astrology developed, you know, based on Laya Yoga and the chakras. Somewhere in here. Maybe we should put this on pause.
(tape paused)
Delta: At the bottom of 512. It says in ‘undeveloped’ man ...
Alpha: “Cause the ray type does not emerge until there is some measure of advancement.”
Delta: Just the sentence before that:
“In undeveloped man, the five non-sacred planets control, with the head and the heart centres under the rule of two sacred planets, which planets being determined by the rays of the soul and of the personality.”
But, I guess what I am trying to do is develop the Laya Yoga part here. The question is, Which chakras you would be working on. And it is not that I am trying to down play anything anyone said.
Alpha: Well, wait a second, he said that Alice Bailey had a big problem in her life transferring her solar plexus centre to her heart centre. OK. That was one of here themes. That she had to do that.
Gamma: So that could come from her Mars on the rising ....
Alpha: Well it’s clear that the Mars square Neptune can indicate that. [Transferring ...] solar plexus to the heart. That was one of her tasks. And there is much pain in it, and that her doing that was mentioned to another person who was trying to do the same thing.
Delta: I’d like to move in towards this central paragraph on page 563. It says:
“It should be noted that there are seven forms of light, related to the substance of the seven planes. These are stimulated and enhanced by the twelve forms of light of the twelve Creative Hierarchies, related each of them to one or other of the twelve signs of the zodiac. On this I may not enlarge as it concerns the mysteries of the higher initiations. I simply make the statement so that it may be appreciated by you as an occult fact to the proof of which you may not yet have access. A paralleling statement would be ...”
... and here is the key thing: “... that the light of the seven centres in man (when enhanced by the light of the seven planetary centres) and the five kingdoms in nature (7+5=12), plus the twelve lights of the zodiac ...” The twelve lights of the zodiac is the traditional stuff we have been discussing. These
“... will produce a consummation of “light” effectiveness which will make possible the expression of the whole. This, through the medium of humanity. This is a basic statement which means little to you as yet but which will—in the next century—form a seed thought or “key sound” for the next revelation of the Ageless Wisdom.”
So the core part of this thing, the seven centres in man resonating with the seven planetary centres, is the Laya yoga, mentioned on page 515, I think. …
Beta: I love this because it is interesting between creative hierarchies and kingdoms.
Alpha: Un-hmm. Well is it not possible that the zodiacal signs have a certain tendencies to blend with the chakras in certain ways?
Delta: Yeah. And that is what I would like to discuss a lot.
Alpha: And I think that it is pretty possible to go through the list of chakras and talk about particular affinities of the twelve signs with the chakras, at different stages of evolution.
Delta: Yeah. That would be worth while. Maybe we should do that instead of this.
Alpha: Well, but this is fine. You are on the track of something. I think it would only be satisfying to try to break through this a little bit.
Delta: Well we have to … discuss the planetary rulers of the chakras at different times and with the signs.
Alpha: Yeah. Well. OK. She’s ..... You see ....You don’t want to consider the signs themselves though, you see.
Delta: I am willing to consider them and anything as long as it goes back to the idea of interpreting the chakras and the movement of energy.
Alpha: You see this Venus in Gemini as the exoteric ruler of her sun sign is extremely important in what she did.
Delta: But how does that tie in with her problem of the solar plexus, the heart and …
Alpha: That one doesn’t. I mean, her solar plexus to the heart has to be related to the Mars-Neptune-Moon …
Beta: Pluto is very significant in certain stages with the higher stages of the solar plexus.
Alpha: Yeah. It can be. It is not particularly in aspect. In other words, her emotional problem, the fears she suffered from fear all her life and all that, this is that Mars-Moon-Neptune thing, basically … Mars-Neptune is the lower solar plexus and the higher solar plexus … which are in square in this case. So, that is a problem. And it also involves a lot of early idealism. She may have changed from a sixth ray astral body …
Delta: Now one second. Just stick with that one idea: Mars-Neptune. I agree in this case it does totally involve the solar plexus. But couldn’t we also look at it in any other cases as involving the sacral centre for many people?
Alpha: The sacral centre for many people, yes. Personal assertions from the sacral centre. Yes. It could.
Delta: Usually people have wild sex lives, but not necessarily very fulfilling, that is Mars-Neptune. It is usually, traditional astrologists tend to be more sacral. But, I agree, in this case, it clearly shows the solar plexus.
Alpha: OK. We have to take her stage of evolution into consideration. … So you are talking about one of her personal problems. Raising to the higher solar plexus ... or to the heart.
Delta: So for solar plexus she has Mars square Neptune. What things would you think would rule her heart chakra, Jupiter?
Alpha: We cannot necessarily say that Neptune does not rule the heart....
Beta: Neptune rules the head, rules the higher cycles of ....
Delta: So Neptune rules ...or is in partial rulership of the heart chakra.
Alpha: I tell you .....Neptune can be assigned in three places ... four places. It can be assigned to the twelve petalled lotus in the head relating to pure reason. It can be assigned to the ajna at a certain point of evolution, definitely, I mean he says that under the ajna centre in the same section as Beta read ...
Delta: ... resonance to the heart in a certain point.
Alpha: Sure. They are all connected ... these three are definitely connected with the heart centre because the solar flame, heart of the sun, and solar plexus. So those four centres are all Neptunian centres, it just depends on where we want to read it.
Beta: there is something else too that I have been using for a long time. I talked with Alpha about this that in looking at. I only have a small number of discipleship charts but when I looked at the ones I have I found that almost all of them had, was their soul rays connected to the planetary node that was conjunct the ascendant. In this case it is Neptune: 10 degrees Leo, heliocentrically.
Delta: That is very interesting.
Alpha: Soul ray is connected, but Now Beta, didn’t you tell me that heliocosims were connected? I don’t want to get off the subject but ...
Beta: I find them definitely...
Alpha: Yeah. OK ... not to get off the subject, we can take it up another time. OK. Where do you want to go next, Delta? You are looking a chakras.
Delta: … Let’s just look at these two chakras to keep things simple instead of (involving) everything. We have decided that one of the major problems facing her in this lifetime would be a transition of the energies from the solar plexus to the heart. What would facilitate that and what would impede it. And what other planets might be involved?
Alpha: The trine from Jupiter to Mars is a facilitator in the transfer of solar plexus to the heart.
Delta: And you are saying that because....
Alpha: Jupiter is the second ray planet correlated with heart and Mars is sixth ray solar plexus ... the fact that there is a trine there means it is facilitated.
Delta: So I put Jupiter down here for the heart too ... Everyone is agreed with that, I guess. Its also a transfer between a non-sacred and a sacred planet.
Gamma: (This is) pertaining to just regular astrology again, it is a personal problem she has, and we are trying to get the rays and the chakras ...
Alpha: Well, he is trying to develop and approach to astrology that is a chakra approach to astrology. So, we may isolate here for a minute the fact that its solar plexus and heart .... OK. But then we can take it higher than that too.
Gamma: Ajna. Because we have decided that Ajna was so very functional.
Delta: Do we think Neptune is one of the co-rulers of her ajna chakra in her particular case?
Alpha: Well, she was a tremendous psychic and sensitive.
Delta: Yeah. So I would go along with that.
Gamma: You know, Delta, its not in anything less.
Alpha: Mercury, Venus, and, you know we can find a reference in Esoteric Healing, but at some point Neptune does come in. …
Beta: Cancer is the only sign that has pure unveiled Neptunian energy on the personality level; there is no unveiled Neptune in any of the other signs ...only in Cancer. And Neptune is the ruler of the second solar system. It is also, I mean, there are so many things there, it is the initiator for this world period, for the Christ, the Initiator is called Neptune.
Delta: Well, I guess one of the things I would be proposing is to decide on the chakra rulerships. We wouldn’t necessarily look at the horoscope at first, per se. Although we looked at it in conjunction with our intuition.
Beta: I associate Neptune with head centre, personally.
Alpha: ... the whole head centre?
Beta: The thousand petalled ... all the major factors in the head centre.
Alpha: But since it is particularly Buddhic and love related ...
Beta: I had Jupiter too for odd reasons and Vulcan. But, this is something that I have to write about. Its not readily apparent. … I’m not sure, you know.
Delta: Well, we are trying to decide what rays and/or planets might be associated with her ajna chakra. You can see how hard it is for us. You can imagine what it is like for the general public to do with this.
Beta: Well, we have Mercury, right?
Alpha: Well, we know the ones that are classically assigned: Mercury and Venus. … See Venus is
peculiarly important. She is the soul imprint ... if you will.
Beta: ... also the mind of God. All the issues surrounding the mind of god are associated with Mercury and Uranus.
Delta: But, through the right rulership of the ajna chakra might switch during an incarnation ... it also might be under different influences at different times. … I think it would behoove us to try to pick a major ruler of her ajna chakra rather than saying ... oh, there are twenty factors that play into it.
Beta: Mercury is there ... it is all there. It’s tied in with her Neptunian second ray work. And it is sextile Uranus ...
Gamma: You know what I have here also is that Saturn rules the ajna centre for initiates. With Saturn, Mercury, Venus.
Alpha: Well, I can see how Saturn would rule because the ajna centre is the place of decision. But ...
Delta: But I think we would be wise to try to keep things simple, if we can, and just assign one ray rulership for each chakra.
Alpha: It is so hard without knowing exactly where the person is ... you know.
Beta: Mercury has higher aspects also because it is going to be synthesized into Uranus.
Alpha: Yeah. It is true. But ... the question is ... how did Alice Bailey use Mercury?
Delta: Yeah. And what ray ruled her ajna chakra?
Alpha: How did she use her ajna chakra? That is more to the point. … Well, she was a telepath, a receiver, and to what extent a sender we don’t know, but a receiver for sure. Now, did she receive in this area? Or is telepathy involving the head centre as well?
Beta: Well, in order to be clairvoyant and not just overshadowed you have to actually have the sixth petal opened, right? …
Delta: See ... so, now we come into another topic (which is the same topic) which is we know what the twelve houses and twelve signs mean, we could probably assign higher, more elevated rulerships to the different houses. But now we are discussing what is telepathy ruled by? Is it more the crown chakra, more the ajna in her case. It is a little of both? In other words, just as there are definitions for all the twelve houses, it would be good if we could come up with general sets of definitions for the seven chakras: what types of themes are associated with them?
Beta: We might add some of the throat but, perhaps the alta major because of her speaking with DK.
Alpha: Speaking, well, she is dialoging with the soul. She is dialoging with Venus. I mean, I am not sure, Delta, in the attempt to find only one ruler for the ajna centre we might be cutting out something quite important.
Delta: Well I would think that maybe at times the rulership would change or other sub influences would play on it, but do you think there are several rulers for each chakra?
Alpha: Yes. I do.
Beta: I think on different levels.
Alpha: Yeah. It depends now.
Beta: ... how they are used.
Delta: Well, if you are going to say that there are several rulerships for each chakra and maybe, in fact, that is the case, it is going to make it almost impossible to come up with any sort of methodology.
Beta: No, no ... you just have to see them all at once. Because, it is the same with the three rulers. You have to use personality and soul rulers. And you can’t use just one ... though you might focus on one. It seems true that with the personality rulers we have the person’s past, and part of their automatic equipment if they are soul focused. And then in terms of establishing rapport with the public and people who are focused on the personality then they have to use their own personality rulers. And the same is true with the chakras. So if she went through a period where Venus ruled her ajna centre she is going to have that in her equipment, so she has to use it as well, but it will probably be focused by Mercury, don’t you think?
Alpha: Umm. Yeah. Is it likely that she would have used Venus through the ajna centre. Is there anything about her life which suggests that she was using Venus through the ajna centre.
Beta: She co-operated with him in the language of work. That is purely manasic, left eye, Venus.
Alpha: Uh-haa. What do you think?
Delta: I think that there is only really one major rulership, although I think that could change as you took different initiations. You know, in a lifetime if you went from the first initiation to the second initiation your chakra rulerships might change largely as a result of that. But, still I would think that it would be mainly one thing. I would imagine that she might have started off with Venus ruling her ajna chakra because she was already a very integrated person. And also given that it is in her sun sign, maybe that also shows that that is part of her personality equipment that she came in with. It would, whatever chakra Venus rules in her chart when she started off, let’s say the ajna, that chakra was functioning in a cohesive and integrated way.
Alpha: Yeah, well I think that Venus rules the lower antahkarana. And maybe Mercury rules a bit of the higher. And the lower antahkarana is looked at as the connection of soul and personality. And I would say that her person – with Sun/Gemini and Sun/Venus – the chance of having an integrated, soul-infused personality is very strong, but that the higher receptivity might really be facilitated by Mercury. And there may have been a switch. And I don’t think it is out of the ball park to consider the receptiveness of Cancer. Because long ago DK said they developed such a great rapport when she was just a Chela in the light, and he was something superior to that, that South Node/Mercury thing seems part of that receptivity. … And maybe she was really starting to receive Mercury-wise in the ajna when he began to communicate with her. That was a facility that was stimulated at that point which may not have been so prominent before. She might have just been walking around as a fairly luminous intelligent being and then, switch.
Delta: It is also like three in one, I think, and gives Mercury and Uranus as ruling the heart which would reflect into the ajna for advanced initiates.
Beta: Traditional theosophists say the lower antahkarana is ruled by Saturn and the higher, Venus.
Alpha: Well. We know that the higher antahkarana, you mean, is ruled by Venus?
Beta: It ties into the planetary constitution.
Alpha: It fits to a degree. But Mercury is really involved in the antahkarana work.
Beta: It certainly co-ordinates the triad.
Gamma: Yeah. He is supposed to improve the antahkarana ...
Delta: It seems as a consensus here ... that the ajna chakra usually has a strong correspondence with Mercury and Venus, in general.
Alpha: Yes. And that we can find instances in her life to support both approaches.
Delta: And that it is possible that she, perhaps, as she went on switched to Neptune rulership, for example?
Alpha: Yeah. Well, now, in all fairness I think I extended the idea because the ajna centre is closely related to the sixth ray. I extended the idea to Neptune because of the imaginative dreaming aspect of the ajna centre which is the creative visualising centre, divine imagination. I assume Neptune, but if you want to just leave it as Venus controlling the sixth ray, you can leave it as Venus. However, this seems to come later in the day “it is the organ of idealism therefore and curiously enough it is related to the sixth ray.” (page 149 of Esoteric Healing). And to think of the ajna centre as sixth ray you really have to think of it as a bit later in the evolutionary process . I want to say the ajna centre can be related to almost everywhere, I can justify it.
Delta: What do you say for most people: Mercury or Venus would probably be strongly involved?
Alpha: Not so much Neptune and Saturn.
Delta: ... not so much Neptune and Saturn for most people … Then can we say that in her case she had to be pretty accurate with what she was doing with the ajna centre. In other words, her imagination wasn’t being called upon as a factor as much as the fact that she had a certain integrity and facility with language.
Alpha: Well, we don’t know that because her whole subjective work was hidden. You know he said it was even more important than what she was doing for the world. You know, which is a strange thing to say about her, but you know the world does not know what Alice Bailey does. All I can say is that she was a tremendous example of a soul-infused personality and in order for that to happen the ajna centre has to be activated and Venus is active at the third initiation, the fifth ray. …
Tape Five Begins
Delta: So we are still discussing Alice Bailey’s Chakras on this tape … And since I think a certain imaginative accuracy would be called for, I wouldn’t normally think Neptune would be that accurate, although Neptune in its deeper sense is the ultimate truth.
Alpha: Neptune is buddhi.
Delta: Yeah. And especially in a sign like Taurus which is very concrete I can also see Neptune in Taurus ruling her ajna chakra too.
Alpha: Yeah, Taurus is associated with the ajna centre.
Delta: So, maybe in her case she started off with Venus and Gemini ruling her ajna chakra, and maybe went onto Neptune in Taurus ...
Alpha: ... without abandoning ability. The important thing to realise is when we move to an esoteric ruler we do not abandon what we had at an earlier level.
Delta: Yes, she had visional abilities.
Beta: And look at her work; she couldn’t possibly abandon the entire bridge. Her antahkarana would have to have been incredibly strong because she had to, in working with DK, He didn’t always the words, he had the symbols and the ideas, but she had to provide all the words and the manasic work, which to me is incredibly Saturnian. When I see the chart, Jupiter/Saturn immediately jumps out, in relationship to Leo rising. I see that as profoundly important in her work with the world. It was so important, but, who is Aryan ... show is Aries, the sign of initiation of the initiator, after Capricorn, later in this game, after Capricorn.
Alpha: Well, she’s shifting the plane of mind but that, you know, that’s OK.
Beta: That’s in relation to the status quo ...
Delta: ... but I am purposefully trying to shift this onto the most difficult topic, because if we can’t address it then who will be able to address it?
Alpha: The big question is, that by cutting off one of our arms we can’t give the whole story.
Beta: Saturn rules the antahkarana, it rules the lower antahkarana. That is extremely important for someone doing this type of manasic work. That is all I am saying. Venus and Saturnean ... how its unusual ...
Alpha: ... I have a question about that ... because it seems to be that Saturn might very well, I think, rule the entire lower mental plane and its synthesis in the mental unit, which is the base of the antahkarana. But I can’t see Saturn as the bridge. I can only see it as a firm foundation.
Beta: Well, there is exoteric and esoteric Saturn too, I see it in the planetary constitution as very much involved with his planetary lower mind and it involves human antahkaranas. … It would be related to the kumaras, the lords of karma. And it is definitely involved.
Alpha: OK. We are going to lead ourselves into another big subject. We can’t take that subject. We can’t take that turn now.
So ... Delta, what are you taking us to next here?
Delta: Well, I guess I ad nauseum have made my point, and maybe we should try to discuss the chakras, and it is also obvious that we as somewhat advanced students are having a difficult time, so you can imagine what the public is going to go through. But anyway, let’s go on to a different topic within the chart:
Blavatsky (in the Secret Doctrine) says that esotericists used to divide cycles into seven. That was a very important division, and of course, the key to everything we do on the seven planes is seven chakras, so seven is very important. In astrology there are things called critical degrees. And they are always multiples of 1/7th of a circle. From zero, from equinox or solstice points, multiples of 51 degrees 26 minutes, they’re septiles form zero Libra, zero Capricorn, zero Aries, zero Cancer. … So, in other words what is 51 degrees 26 minutes from zero Aries? 21 degrees 26 minutes of Taurus. That is a critical degree. What is 51 degrees 26 minutes from zero Cancer ? 21 degrees 26 minutes of Leo. That is also a critical degree. Zero of all the cardinal’s are critical, 12 degrees 51 minutes of the cardinals are critical. It is every 12 degrees 51 minutes.
Alpha: Every 12 degrees 51 minutes?
Delta: I am being very precise, not thirteen. …
Alpha: I thought you said septiles were involved. Twelve degrees fifty-one minutes of a cardinal sign ....so if you take twelve degrees fifty-one minutes of Aries ...that’s one hundred two degrees fifty minutes from zero Capricorn .....2/7th of a circle. In other words, two seventh of a circle is one hundred two degrees fifty minutes.
Beta: He is using bi-septiles and tri-septiles.
Alpha: Yeah. I see that. But why start at Capricorn?
Delta: You can start at either Capricorn, Cancer ....
Alpha: How many critical degrees are there?
Delta: There are twenty-eight critical degrees.
Alpha: OK. That is what I mean. I didn’t know how many there were: Septiles from every cardinal point.
Delta: Yeah. From every cardinal point; multiples of twelve degrees fifty-one minutes. Yes, that is a lot, so I also use a very tight orb and use the precise critical degree. So, anyway, I use a one degree orb, keep it really tight. So obviously 1/7th aspects are important anyway. We all agree on this? This is in traditional astrology but it has fallen somewhat into disuse.
But if we look at Alice Bailey’s chart we can see her Moon is in zero Libra, and one seventh of a circle before that is Mars, on a critical degree, nearly fifty-one of Leo. One seventh of a circle before that is Venus, at seventeen something of Gemini … and then one seventh of a circle before that is Saturn at twenty-six of Aries. So, in other words she has four: Saturn, Venus, Mars and Moon all in the series of septiles. And not only are they septiles but they are all critical degrees, because they tie in with zero degrees Libra.
Alpha: The first thing that strikes me is that the lower man, which is Mars-Moon, is completely dominated by the two rulers of the third initiation, Saturn-Mars, which are elevated, Saturn-Venus which are elevated over the two, Mars-Moon. In other words she has got a perfect set up for a third initiation conflict.
Beta: Why do you put Saturn-Venus in the third initiation?
Alpha: They would be rulers of Capricorn.
Delta: Well, I guess I am also asking in this question ... do we want to, as esoteric astrologers, give very strong pride of place to 1/7th aspects that are in critical degrees from zero cardinal?
Alpha: How often does it happen?
Beta: Critical degrees I have never looked at but I always use bi-septiles and tri-septiles.
Delta: No, it is not rare. But, in other words, are we going to say this is of a little bit of importance, somewhat important, very important, overwhelmingly important? That is the question I am bringing up.
Alpha: I don’t have enough charts to refer to.
Beta: Well this is fascinating actually to see this particular line up. Because if you have a line of these particular planets in a situation like Bailey then it becomes very clear how significant the septile is. … The same happens with the heliocosims that I use. You just have to apply them to every chart you get.
Alpha: Suppose we said yes to that question. What would we begin to do?
Delta: Well, one of the things we might begin to do is say, it is very interesting that she has just Saturn and Jupiter overhead; that is of course important, and Mars rising. But, you would also want to heavily weight (perhaps I mean I am stuffing words in people’s mouths, I don’t know if I would even say this myself), perhaps instead of looking at trines and squares, and so forth, we should give pride of place to 1/7th?
Beta: It is a higher harmonics.
Alpha: Do we ... Now wait a second. The way to discover this is to look at the life and see specifically the important things that emerged in the life and how they correlate with those things to which we are giving pride of place, or to those things which we are maybe ignoring. See, basically, to study this kind of thing you have got to know what those septiles meant in her life. And whether that justifies giving pride of place to them, from the empirical approach.
Delta: Well, lets take Venus and the Moon, bi-septile. The moon was in Libra which is exoterically ruled by Venus, and Venus is the esoteric ruler of Gemini. So, in other words, they have some strong links there. What happened in her social life? She got more support in general from women than from men? Perhaps unusually loving women?
Alpha: We might say that. But is that at all esoteric? I mean does it has to do with her life of consciousness?
Delta: That is true. It is a good point. I am throwing this up; it maybe a very silly point.
Alpha: Well it is a thought. … You see, what will a septile actually tell us? What should a septile tell us esoterically?
Delta: I think it is a change of one form into another. It says you get to the uppermost or vital-most plane, in seven planes, and you switch into another form or another dimension. And it is also the only number from one through ten that doesn’t divide rationally, or evenly, into 360, so, I see it as a change of form. …
Beta: ... traditional astrology says septiles are related to fate or destiny. I think they mean you have a structure. What Blavatsky said was basically the way the entire universe is structured on sevens; it is a cybernetic number which is an organising number so if you have septiles it means an organisation is in place to move.
Alpha: What do you mean an organisation?
Beta: An organised situation or, something instrumental, the planets involved and the vehicles involved are organised and ready to go.
Alpha: That sounds so different from irrational; very different from irrational number.
Delta: Irrational just means it doesn’t divide ...
Alpha: What I mean to say is that the symbolism of an irrational number is that it doesn’t quite fit into form in a neat way.
Beta: But it gives you flexibility in handling form, perhaps, from a higher ...
Alpha: We have to know the meaning of a septile if we are going to say it is really significant in the life of initiates and disciples.
Delta: Same direction ... I often times think of being associated with septiles.
Alpha: OK. Because what is interesting here is ... you’ve got a bunch of combinations here. You can read Venus in combination with the Moon. You could read Saturn in combination with Mars. Saturn in combination with Venus. Saturn in combination with the Moon. There are all in the septile connection, aren’t they. So you could read a bunch of different things. Now, whatever that moon in Libra meant or collaborates is one thing (with the DK, OK?) But from a negative point of view, perhaps, let’s read it like this: her higher antahkaranic work, which signified partnership with the solar element, transformed her need for outer Libran partnership. …
Delta: Partnership with the higher self.
Alpha: Exactly. If one wants to look at how Venus could influence the Moon and how Venus represents a higher aspect of that. Venus has to transform the Moon that is a major transformational pair.
Alpha: Yes ... and from another point of view Saturn-Mars. You know you could read that in a higher way as well, could you not? … There are a lot of ways to do it, but certainly the mind over the emotions is one thing. It is certainly God’s plan on a manasic level over the individual rebellious personality. It is the throat centre over the solar plexus centre. So it is a transformational thing, right?
Delta: Could we say, if we interpret the Moon as ruling the past that she had, past, very powerful connections with Saturn, Venus and Mars, whatever that would mean, and that was going to be changed radically this lifetime, from that?
Alpha: Yeah. Well there is a real elevation of the chakras going on here. What strikes me is that Mars-Moon are what a person like herself have to overcome. … Which is first ray, see, that Mars on the ascendant, in a first ray sign cannot be read only as Solar Plexus. See this is a case when the other rays of a planet have got to be read too. This could make a tremendously assertive person, couldn’t it? Willful. Willful.
Gamma: And you have put the first rays of the soul of Mars, or what?
Alpha: Well, the first ray is involved because Mars is the school for warriors and destroyers and all that red, so first ray is definitely involved there. So, in a certain sense the fact that she has a first ray personality, there you have some first ray planets connected, you have Mars on the ascendant in a first ray sign, yeah a first ray sign, then you have also a Saturn septile, and Saturn has first ray in it too. See, so you want planets associated with the personality ray don’t you? We have only done the soul so far. …
Delta: Could we say there is a conflict between her personality and the soul if we say Neptune is part of her soul ray, right there, and Neptune square Mars on the Ascendant.
Alpha: Yeah.
Gamma: You know there is something which is bothering me. Is that when I look also at initiates and people especially when the Tibetan gives the rays of the personality and the rays of soul, and when you look at the signs which he has assigned to them, you see they are often reversed …
Alpha: Well they don’t even correlate necessarily do they?
Gamma: They certainly look sometimes they are reversed.
Alpha: So it must be independent systems.
Delta: I think the ascendant is like the subray of the soul this incarnation; the subray you should be working on. Or it might be the same ray as the your soul.
Alpha: It might be, but what ever it is, it is an incarnational direction for the soul’s expression.
I tell you what is really hard about astrology is there is so many factors and what you’re trying to go in there with is with the first ray, you are trying to cut everything away but the essence of the matter. But, unfortunately, astrology is so sticky and so subtle that when you try to only go for the essence you may end up lopping off some really significant data about the person.
Delta: Yeah. I agree. But, in other words, it would be nice if you could come up with a story rule. In other words, in traditional astrology I would say just look at the fact she has Mars on the ascendant and Jupiter-Saturn on the Midheaven. I wouldn’t even look at the rest of the chart at first. … This would show up as someone with great action that would have a profound social effect. Of course, then I’d look at the sun in Gemini. You know it would be through communication and social abilities and intellect and stuff like that.
Alpha: See, what you could do, you are sitting there with Alice Bailey, and you are understanding how some of her chakras work and some of her life is working. You could kind of go into the chart on the basis of that and then look at the pertinent planets that signal the way she is working.
Delta: Do you think it would be worthwhile to discuss the thing you’ve mentioned before. Maybe we could try to come up with what planets and signs we’d associate with each chakra in general.
Alpha: Oh, it could be done. But I want to indicate also that this business about the fusion of her soul and personality is also given by the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction. It is a higher way of interpreting it. Because Jupiter always represents the soul. See, what you have up there is a second ray soul and a first ray personality in the person of Jupiter and Saturn.
Delta: What about the idea that I am trying to get back to a methodology. … This is great though. I am more fifth ray; the discussion is being more fourth ray. That is good because it is creating a juxtaposition. But, if we say that Jupiter is the same as her soul ray and/or Neptune, there is a certain strong first ray component to Aries always. … And there is a certain strong esoteric component of the first ray with Taurus (from Vulcan). … So, in other words, her soul ruler, you say Jupiter and Neptune, well I’d like to be a big fifth ray, just lob of Neptune altogether.
Alpha: I would ... because Neptune in Taurus is far too enduring an influence; it lasts fourteen years.
Delta: But I’m merely doing it from the point of view of simplifying, so somebody could just say look at one thing: your soul ray is two, its Jupiter; your soul ray is one, its Pluto.
Alpha: But maybe that can’t be done.
Beta: That to me is impossible.
Delta: I know. That is why this conversation is great. You guys are being more fourth ray about it.
Alpha: Well, what we are doing? We are being contextual, and we are seeing the way things are tied to each other. And if we try to be Draconian, in the Capricornian sense, we may put this on a procrustian bed, and miss the individuality of the person.
Delta: Oh, I agree. There is no way this could ever be reduced to simple rules, but I think it would be good if we could start with some initial building blocks. So anyway we say Saturn rules her soul and it is in Aries that is going to have first ray overtones to her soul.
Alpha: ... the wisdom side.
Delta: Yeah. Whereas if Jupiter rules her soul, and it’s Gemini maybe that would be second Ray overtones. ... or perhaps fifth ray if you look at Venus, or Jupiter rules the soul, Jupiter in Libra, then maybe there would be third ray overtones.
Alpha: Sure, and the question is, for this particular incarnation, or in general? Because the undertones, or what ever it is, that you want for the soul are going to be there all the time. For instance, her soul is either going to be on the wisdom line, or the love-love line, or the manasic line. So the question is, that is going to change every life – she is not always going to be born with Jupiter in Aries.
Delta: Exactly, so in other words, Jupiter would always be a strong connection with her soul, as a second ray soul, and if it is in Aries maybe she is working on the first subray aspect of the soul. If it is in Libra maybe she is working on the third subray.
Alpha: OK. If the subrays of the soul change that fast, and frankly I think you are looking at a lower level influence here; I think the subray of the soul pretty well stays what it is for a long time. And then a lot of incarnations pass and you get to kind or work on a related subray and it is not ‘the’ subray.
Beta: How about in the later initiations … doesn’t it speed up?
Alpha: Yeah. Well, look, a person is oriented towards the wisdom line forever, they are on the first subray of the second ray soul, and can you tell me that you think that their soul indicator is always going to be in a sign that is first subray?
Delta: I couldn’t say that. I have no idea.
Alpha: That seems to be a more permanent thing.
Delta: Well maybe initially, Jupiter for the second ray soul, but also for a person’s soul you should look at the ascendant.
Alpha: That will not tell you a ray, that will only tell you the possibility of what the person can use to be a success in this particular incarnation.
Delta: That will tell you a ray in the sense that Leo is associated with the fifth ray and the rulers of Leo are associated with the Sun, the second ray, Neptune, the sixth ray.
Alpha: OK. But it will only be good for an incarnation. … So basically, what you see are some things that last all the time and other things that change. And the thing is, does the horoscope reflect the things that last, or does it tend to reflect the things that change?
Delta: ... depends on what things change …
Alpha: I think so too. And I think ... with the signs and the house position, that soul and personality rulers are all part of the ephemeral way the soul can apply itself in a particular incarnation, but they don’t necessarily represent part of the permanent structure. Like the permanent subray for quite a few incarnations of the soul, that can last a long time.
OK. Why don’t we try to summarise what we have done, right here, from your point of view, what have we tried to do and what have we done?
Delta: Well, ultimately I agree there are a lot of factors to look at for anything, it can’t be pigeon holed, but for the sake of sanity and for the sake of giving people initially building blocks, I think it is worth while trying to pigeon hole it.
Alpha: What does DK mean by the fact that the new astrology is the intuitive astrology. What is the implications of this?
Delta: I think the implications of that deal with what the chakras are associated with, and what rays you have as a soul, and what chakras you are working on through that soul, and what the rulerships of those chakras are.
Gamma: I would add to that an integral part is mainly where a person is. That is a very important piece of information about a person.
Alpha: Well wouldn’t you say that is just the first piece.
Beta: Well, intuition is only as good as it has something to interact with, and the more diverse the field or the span (such as the methodologies can give you), the more the intuition can draw or picture out, or draw the essentials out.
Alpha: OK, we are dealing with fifth ray—fourth ray; buddhi-manas here.
Delta: And then we also had a discussion as to how much pride of place we should give septile aspects, because in traditional astrology and even Esoteric Astrology it is not mentioned, although Blavatsky does mention it in the Secret Doctrine. That is how initiates would divide the cycles into sevens.
Alpha: I think that if you give students a range of rulerships of the chakras, both planetary and zodiacal, and you tell them approximately when those rulers are going to kick in and why, you would be giving them a range to choose from. See, I think that you can go chakra by chakra and you can find out which planets and which signs condition that chakra more or less when and why. And I think it is a lot to learn but a competent astrologer would have to have that array before them so the wouldn’t just have to say one thing, but say, ‘no there are three things that are possible here, but this one looks most germane at this point in your life.’
Delta: So this isn’t complete, but I made this up, sorry I didn’t make more copies. Something like that ...it just lists the chakras and then at the very top it shows the words ... What is good about doing it by hand it is real; these are the normal order of chakras. You really can see in big clear roman numerals. … That was just a rough draft that I made ...
Beta: In some cases she gives planets and mock rays; in other cases rays and mock planets.
Alpha: But, there are three things that have to apply: rays, planets, and signs. And maybe it is not fair to a student of astrology to say, we can make it fairly easy for you, just look at this.
Beta: Right. Particularly when it comes to chakras I would say ‘suggest’. Let the students do their work.
Gamma: You know that is the best I could do ... here ...
Alpha: Gamma’s got one here too. Ray, average ray, head, one. … the ray for a disciple ... Ray for initiate, one. And then you can justify all this, right? … Planets, the average, planet for the disciple, Vulcan and Jupiter? And you can justify all this? For the head centre, Vulcan and Jupiter.
Gamma: There is a reference for this.
Beta: Oh yeah. I definitely say Jupiter for the head centre. No question.
Alpha: Now what is the question that is really emerging here?
Delta: I would like to back pedal a step ... for example, if we’re looking at a third ray rulership, that what we look for is Saturn. We would not look for Libra.
Alpha: Third ray rulership of what?
Delta: Whatever chakra was ruled by the third ray. We were saying a planet corresponds with the third ray, not a sign. The planet Saturn, not the sign Libra, or if we look at the fourth ray we’re saying the planet Mercury applies ... Mercury and the Moon, and not the sign Scorpio, for example. … actually the repetitive assumption I would like to work towards ...
Alpha: You would like to work toward that except ... what about our friend Taurus in relation to the brow centre? Wouldn’t you say that ...
Delta: I’m just simply saying ... look, Gamma’s chart has eliminated the sign, which I like, because I want to pigeon hole things.
Alpha: I know, you admit that is what you like. The question is ...
Beta: The important point in all of this, and it is my bias, but the human constitution is absolutely crucial. It is crucial to understand that incredible detail. Once doing the astrological chart, then you can apply. I feel, especially with chakras, it is best to let people do their own compilations and let them apply it in their own way. Among a group like this it is fine to compile our material, I think. But, for safety, with the chakras, I would suggest that, outside working groups like this, people are just left to their own devices. But, it you concentrate on the constitution, it creates a scaffolding on which people can hang all the esoteric keys, or add all the material that actually would ...
Delta: Oh ... the constitution and the causal body ...
Beta: The details of the antahkarana, the details of the mental, the different petals of the mental nature.
Delta: So how would we begin speaking with somebody about his esoteric astrology, would we start off by discussing the constitution and not so much the astrological ... ?
Beta: Well, in almost every case, I find, there are one or two points that I have to make, sort of pedagogically, in terms of human constitution, with any client. I try to keep it to the minimum because I am not ...
Delta: I agree, and, again, the problem I have been trying to bring up is, you look at the regular horoscope with the twelve signs and houses. That doesn’t discuss the constitution of man. I agree with you, we should bring that in immediately, or as immediately as we can. In other words, there needs to be a complete shift away from the signs and houses cause it is so easy for people to fall into the same old ruts with these.
Beta: Because then everything is substantial from interpretation that is assumed, or derivative, and it is not live ... it doesn’t come from ...
Alpha: Well, OK. We are at nine o’clock now and we have done quite a bit of work today along a wide range of subjects.
Gamma: And we really just only followed the agenda.
Alpha: Laughter.
Beta: Oh goodness.
Alpha: Writing of agendas is the most useless task. Well now, we haven’t really reached question two yet. But that is all right … it will all come together, really.
Tomorrow ... there are a lot of things to discuss, and I suppose that the conversation will take its own direction ... but it seems to me that we need to discuss the entities. Who is in the game and what do they mean to each other? Maybe without getting over technical about all their subdivisions which is also an interesting study. But, who are they? Where are they located? And what is the hierarchy of them?
Then we need, perhaps, to discuss their inter-relationships. And of course that is the same thing as discussing the inter-relationship of the chakras. It is a bit like studying the science of triangles. See, in an interesting way, entities can be related in pairs, in triplicities, in quadruplicities, and then it starts to get more difficult. They can be related in five pointed stars, they can be related in six pointed stars, and after that it gets really difficult, until you get to the number twelve, and so forth. But, if we know who the entities are and how they can be related to each other on their own level and on other levels then we, maybe, are going to throw some fresh light on the inter-relations of the parts of the human being. Because ‘as above so below’.
So that is one thing we can do. And that could lead to a quite extended discussion. We have been fairly abstract today in some ways. And we have attempted to be a little more concrete. And a few times we have actually ventured into the human being, in terms of the causal body, initiation, the unfoldment of the petals ...for human beings. We have done that. Tonight we have also been human, attempted to be human, so we have had a mix. Any other things that comes to your mind for tomorrow?
Gamma: It is pretty loaded already.
Delta: I would like to discuss some of the major triangles that are listed in Esoteric Astrology, one or two of them, and what levels they operate on and what it means to invoke them and how we invoke them. Also I would like to, if we get a chance, to list the signs that rule the five planes we are on. And I would like for a few moments to discuss whether ...
Alpha: ... So, basically what we are dealing with there is the relationship part of the entities … if we can spend some time defining entities and locations, then get into relationships, I think we are in pretty good shape.
As I leave this particular discussion I am left with a sense of the incredible complexity of what is going on in a human being and how the mind has somehow to be able to apprehend it all at once and factor out with intuition the salient factor of the moment. It seems like it is a Mercurial function, a higher Mercurial function to be able to grasp a pattern, and saying ‘out of this pattern this is what emerges’. Whereas, another time I might grasp the pattern and something else might emerge. And that is what I think the intuitional astrology, on one level, means.
Delta: I was intentionally trying to bring up something that I think needs to be addressed and is unusually difficult. And I agree with you that, ultimately, it will be intuitional, in fact it means reduced to a simple methodology.
Alpha: Well, it would be nice for people to be able to apprehend it that way but ...
Beta: Methodologies are so useful and I like to get into individual metrologies, or one methodology is covered, but when I focus on them in a group I get a bit frustrated because the next thing I want to do is immediately hierarchicalize all the methodologies or all the techniques so we can somehow set up a methodological tree or tree of logic or some type of interactive assessment device.
Alpha: Um-hmm, I think the final word on this should be OM. … Well, we are going to stop, but the point is we really ought to have the right kind of closure. So why don’t we do ... “May the power of the one life ...” and round it all off.
(end of day one)