Alpha: (continuing) … Where is the large table of hierarchies? … page 1238. OK. This will be very useful to us because it shows the solar constitution and the parallels in the planetary constitution. So we have just dealt with the Solar Logos (in a way which I hope will be forgiven), and now we are dealing with the three Lords of Aspect, which I judge from page 844 indicates the trinity. Now, whether that trinity, which I interpret as Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and which I also wonder if each one of them manifests through three planets (correlating this with the reference on page 99 or 100 or Esoteric Psychology). For instance Saturn, Earth, Mars, something manifests through Saturn, Earth and Mars ...
Beta: Is that on a lower level, though, because the seven rays have three rays of aspect below them? … Well the Solar Logos we know is nine fold in some respects.
Alpha: Yeah. Nine fold in some respects.
Here, on page 99, Esoteric Psychology, Volume Two: “There are, as has been stated elsewhere, seven sacred planets but ten planetary schemes, and in three cases, (those of the three major rays) three planets constitute the personality of each ray Life. Some esoteric thinkers believe that there are twelve planets to be considered in our solar system, and there is a basis for their conclusion. The personality of this third ray Life functions through the following planets:
1. The mental body expresses itself through the medium of the planet Saturn.
2. The astral body expresses itself through the planet Mars.
3. The physical body expresses itself through the planet Earth.The potency of this Life is such that He requires three complete schemes-all three closely allied and interdependent-through which to express Himself. Uranus, Jupiter and Venus are similarly allied in order to manifest or express a great Life.”
Delta: So the first ray then, because Uranus is the first ray.
Alpha: Or is it a second ray planet?
Gamma: It would be the second ray.
Delta: That is what I thought all along but he says the three synthesising schemes, right?
Gamma: No this is something else.
Beta: You have the same I have too.
Alpha: Um hmm. And then, does this leave Vulcan, Mercury and Pluto? Neptune, etc. I see what you are saying, because Uranus is the ...
Delta: ... synthesising scheme for the first ray, cause I thought it was second ray all along in terms of ...
Gamma: No but the second ray currents, that energy comes from Sirius and goes through Pisces and Uranus.
Alpha: Oh, that is correct. That is one way to tie it in. Anyway, the point is it would be nice if we knew exactly which planets go through ... The personality of the third ray life functions thorough the following planets …
… Now here is a question. On the chart on page 344 you notice that on top of the cosmic physical plane we have the three and the seven. And comparing this with the chart on 1238, it says here three logoi focused on the sea of fire (the atomic subplane of the cosmic physical plane); then we have on 1238 a trinity. Now is there a correspondence there between this trinity and these three logoi?
Beta: To me, that is the three fold mental vehicles with the soul at its centre, which is three fold. But its outer manifestation is through the mind. It is the shrine of Buddhi through the causal mechanism.
(several voices)
Alpha: OK. Here is what I am trying to figure out. There are three lords of aspect here. And there are always a three and a seven associated with any entity. There’s the major entity surrounded by a three and then eventually manifesting through a seven. And what I am asking myself is whether Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are the great third ray entity, the great second ray entity, the great first ray entity. And whether each one of them instead of manifesting through a single planet somehow manifests through three planets.
Beta: They have to be because the solar causal body has three jewels. Also its eternal now is three solar systems. And that corresponds to the monadic wheel for us. As monads we live through three solar systems.
Alpha: Right. Or five, or six ...
Delta: Well three is associated with consciousness. But from the consciousness aspect it would be correct, but maybe not from the physical matter aspect.
Gamma: So what you think is that those three here are manifesting, each of them, by three planets?
Alpha: That is right, but mostly we have Saturn, Uranus … with a planetary logoic intelligence through one planet, pure and simple. And what I am looking at here is that there are three Lords of Aspect, each one of whom may require three planets to manifest and they are of the higher order of magnitude in our solar system than the normal planet. And then what I was further asking is this trinity that surrounds the solar logos reflected in these three on the atomic subplane, or are these three simply the three synthesising planets and seven other planets, among whom the Earth and Mars and some others are listed.
Beta: Well I think its twelve because if you assume as axiomatic that three is evolution in consciousness and seven is evolution in form, then for our solar system, of the second order, it is going through an evolution in consciousness, and we have both the evolution in consciousness which would be the threes (it could also be three three’s), and you would also have the other, because it is also going through a continuing evolution in form, of the three and the seven.
Delta: This would make sense to me if you looked at the representatives too you could have the three synthesising planets, but also the nine planets there present through their representatives and that …
Alpha: ....I am lost now. You have the three synthesising planets ....
Beta: These could be the three synthesising planets on the logoic plane, and they could be the nine planets, if there were the synthesising planets at the very centre then, you’d have representatives of the nine planets at least, if not some embodiment.
Alpha: See, basically, what would happen is the nine planets we are talking about in relation to the three lords of aspect are listed in composite on both of the these first and second planes. What I am trying to say is that the trinity is not a planet. The three lords of aspect are not a planet. They require three planets to manifest through. And so basically what I am thinking is that somehow ... when I am looking at these three I don’t know whether I am looking at the trinity or at the three synthesising planets. I am saying a synthesising planet is not the same as a Lord of Aspect.
Beta: Oh yes, absolutely Yes.
Alpha: You see why I am saying that? … Both are solar but one is of a higher order. In other words here is my analogy: A Buddha of Activity is not the same as a Chohan.
Delta: The Buddha of Activity is higher.
Alpha: Yeah. And, you see, if you look at 1238 you’ll see exactly why I made that analogy. … You see, basically, we have a very nice system here which is ...
Beta: Well we have nine Buddhas of Activity, nine Buddhas, three of will, three of love and three of activity.
Alpha: Well. Yeah, and we have nine Buddhas. And we have more problems with that.
Beta: Yeah. But the Buddhas of activity are nine fold and basically kumaras are seven fold and ...
Alpha: OK. Now you have just distinguished between a Buddha of Activity and a Kumara. Beta is very great at splitting entities. … We are going to get the Kumaras and the Buddha’s of Activity, but let’s ...
Beta: And they are identical in some respects....
Alpha: Yeah. OK. Well ...the main question is that it seems like the trinity is bigger than what is manifesting right here. See this ...you ...I think you wisely put down Uranus, Neptune and Saturn as the three synthesising planets. …
Beta: Ah-ha. They have to do with incarnation of one solar system. But if it is causal it has to be triple, so then the nine fold aspect would come in, as the reflection in the physical of the causal …
Alpha: OK. Yeah. The point is, does anybody think that the three triangles on the atomic level are the three synthesising planets. Or does anybody think that the three triangles on the atomic level are the Trinity Beings and the three synthesising planets are in fact listed below on the monadic plane along with the other sacred planets?
Delta: No, I think the former. Not the latter. … We are going through a synthesis in consciousness in this solar system whereas the previous solar system was more of a synthesis in form. … So, currently, the synthesising planets would be on the three highest, whereas in the previous solar system there were three synthesising planets that would be part of the seven.
Beta: Probably atmic level. I think, actually, Bailey mentions that.
Alpha: OK. But, hold on ...just a second. Every Heavenly Man … is working on the cosmic astral plane and is no where near yet to being able to master the cosmic mental plane. There is no place, is there, where it says there is such a difference between the three synthesising planets which are listed as being sacred and the other sacred planets as to have those synthesising planets be equivalent to what the sun is doing. Right? In other words, the synthesising planets are closer to the other planetary logoi than they are to what the sun is doing.
Beta: And because they are involved in a specific incarnation rather than in the entity nature of the Solar Logos.
Alpha: Right. OK. And another thing that is normally said is that the synthesising planets are among the sacred planets. So now we have seven listed here on plane number two. And the big question remains: Are the synthesising planets unitable with the other sacred planets?
Beta: Well I think that is probably explained by the other chart Bailey has where Saturn is the only planet in common … the esoteric and exoteric Saturn.
Alpha: OK. See, here is what I am saying also. I seem to remember some charts in which the Solar Logos’s manifestation on our physical plane is atomic. Cosmic physical plane. The Planetary Logoi’s manifestation is always monadic. …
Beta: This is a big question I have with the sets of sevens ...is the planes.
Alpha: Now, remember we just looked at it yesterday with light, vibration, sound, colour … The Solar Logos manifested vibration on the atomic subplane of the cosmic physical plane, the logoic plane. Therefore what I am concluding here is that the three that are on this atomic subplane may be representatives of the Solar Logos and are more like the three beings that surround him than they are Planetary Logoi. In other words I am looking at the trinity and I am trying to make a case to myself that maybe the trinity is reflected as these three beings here. … Of course, you know that is what it is because from the causal body of the Solar Logos there are three lines that tell you that the personality aspect of the Solar Logos is here being represented. ... Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva as a lower personality triangle.
Beta: And the lines to the others are going from the seven are going to the Great Bear.
Alpha: Exactly. And they might go to the Pleiades as well. So I think that in conclusion, these three are related to Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in the solar system.
Gamma: Which is the trinity
Alpha: In our present solar system?
Beta: That is curious. It is simultaneously in one as well as in three. And on higher levels.
Gamma: What would be nice here is on this chart after 1238, to determine where the planes are.
Alpha: Well, and we will be able to do that when we can place the Solar Logos pretty well. Matter of fact if we can place the Solar Logos as a reference point and be pretty sure about it, we might have a whole lot easier time with some of the others.
Delta: Why in this diagram on 344 do the seven Planetary Logoi seem to be coming from a higher source than the three logoi? There is the three logoi on the Adi plane, the seven on the monadic. So why does the monadic plane have the higher source. The cosmic buddhic? And the Adi, which is the cosmic mental? … I think its a (inaudible) buddhic … is four and is along the line of two, four, six, as monadic as ....
Beta: That is true ... but these are also the reflections of the pranas on the second plane and if my thesis is correct that the second plane is the plane of the ray lords (rather than Spirits before the Throne), then the ray lords, the rays, enter in on the second plane, and they individualise on the third plane, which was my confusion.
Alpha: OK. Let’s take that when we get to it so we can actually concentrate on it and follow Beta, and remember what he said that the seven stars in the Great Bear are the prototypes of the seven Planetary Logoi. So he is simply emphasising that relationship. Who knows how high the original source for these other three might go. … they are prototypical. What is interesting is that four goes to two and then maybe two goes to four and so on. There seems to be some alternations there, but that is OK.
So at least we have another hypothesis on that and we have some idea of who these three lords of aspect might be, and we can expect to find them repeated in every system with a central life. We find it repeated around Sanat Kumara, and we might find it repeated around the Planetary Logos himself. As a matter of fact, when we get into Buddha’s of Activity we will discuss it. There are not only three types of Buddha’s of Activity (Buddha’s of Love, Buddha’s of Activity and Buddha’s of Will), but there are three orders of Buddhas for every planetary manifestation (the globe level, the chain level and the scheme level). And that is very important because the three beings of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva who (we just identified here as three Lords of Aspect) are reflected on the scheme level, chain level, and globe level. And which ones you choose to call Buddha’s of Activity are very important; the references of the three levels of Buddha’s are on page 873. And the reason that that is important is because they correspond to the trinity. In other words, we want the correspondence to the trinity in all the beings that we know. So in man the correspondence to the trinity would be Will, Wisdom and Activity, probably. On the globe they are the three Buddha’s of Activity, on the chain level, he calls it Pratyeka Buddha’s, and on the scheme level three entities ...
Beta: Existences ... Entities, existences ...
Alpha: ... existences, OK, well, good, Beta you are really good at distinctions ...
Delta: So Pratyeka Buddha’s on the chain level.
Beta: They are called entities.
Alpha: Oh. That is interesting. Yeah. “Mysterious entities.” And on the solar systemic level they are called Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. And then we can probably take that up as next to the constellational level which tells you that for every seven suns that you see three are invisible, or three beings are invisible. And we can probably take it up to the OAWNMBS and say that that great entity is surrounded by his own trinity. So basically what we have done is we have traced the trinity all the way from man to the highest being we are considering and saying that that three-foldness continues.
Gamma: It is a good idea to start with the sun. In fact if we define very precisely what the sun is and then ...
Alpha: ... and then branch out, yes, the sun is so central to us and is such a ...
Beta: We’ve done a history ... you probably had it in mind. … I was thinking the opposite.
Alpha: OK, that is pretty important because normally what you normally think of when you think of a solar system, or of any system, you think hey there is the seven, and there is the one, but what we are taking about is the three intervening, we are talking about a level that intervenes. … And that exists for man too.
Beta: The nine and the one.
Alpha: ... the nine and the one. .. probably, I would have to count it all out.
Gamma: Can I have an answer to my question here?
Alpha: Yeah, here is this, 1238, this circle for the Planetary Hierarchy OK? And is there one of these circles the same as this one here we have on page 344? You know, is it this circle of that circle?
Beta: That is a very good question. The Planetary Hierarchy would have to be on the seven planes of the solar system rather than the five planetary planes, though its work takes place on the five planetary planes, do you suppose?
Alpha: Ah. Yeah, oh wow look at that. You know in a way, Shamballa must include the atomic subplane of the cosmic physical plane. It necessarily has to because Christ himself, who is only a seventh degree initiate, is already penetrating to the cosmic astral plane. So Sanat Kumara, who is working on the Cosmic Physical Plane, must certainly be focused atomically, especially since he is a subset of the Solar Logos. See, everything about the Solar Logos is focused atomically on the Cosmic Physical Plane. Everything about the Planetary Logoi is focused monadically. So Sanat Kumara is related to the Solar Logos in some small way, so he has to be focused atomically. Therefore ....
Delta: Sanat Kumara is focused atomically and the other Kumara’s are focused .....
Alpha: OK. I didn’t say about the other Kumaras because I don’t know yet. We’ll see in a minute.
Gamma: Let’s talk about this ...
Alpha: But, I’m getting to the point Gamma. The point is simply this, that if you include Sanat Kumara in the Planetary Hierarchy (which is legitimate) then it is the outer circle (on page 344) that includes the Planetary Hierarchy. The middle circle includes only up to being a Master of the Wisdom. And the smallest circle simply includes the personality of man. So they relate to the three different aspects. The first circle is third aspect, the middle circle is second aspect, and the final outer circle is first aspect, including Sanat Kumara as the entire Planetary Hierarchy. I think that is correct. That doesn’t mean that Sanat Kumara is anywhere near as great a being as these triangles that are listed here.
Beta: Right. And our planetary evolution is fivefold. That is what is so daunting, that throughout these cycles that fivefold nature in this solar system will continue for an immensely long period of time.
Delta: Why is our planetary evolution fivefold.
Beta: Because of the five planes of the Monad, and the goal for humanity is only the fifth initiation, in this cycle.
Alpha: Which is essentially focused on the Atmic plane, in other words it finishes plane five.
Delta: And then say the solar system only goes down to the mental so those are the upper five.
Beta: That is great. Yes, that is true.
Delta: And then how might, or might it not be, five Kumaras who would be (inaudible) .....
Beta: Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God! ...
(multiple voices)
Alpha: Here is a quick question: Is it true that we as a solar system have not yet finished the recapitulation of what went on in the first solar system, which was fivefold? In other words, this solar system has to recapitulate and get into its own program, so to speak.
Beta: We were supposed to have been in the fifth round along with Venus, but due to the moon chain failure ...
Alpha: ... that’s “we” as Earth, but I am talking from a solar systemic level. The solar system must recapitulate what when on in the first solar system. … And somewhere in my mind I seem to remember that we are only now getting ready to move into the real program of the (current, second) solar system ... which is related to the second principle, and all of that.
Beta: In the next solar system humanity will have to wait, it’ll individualise on the fifth plane instead of the third.
Alpha: OK. And there is something else about the next solar system that it begins on the monadic plane. I can’t remember the context. But something about it going no lower than the monadic plane. Here is what I am getting at ... Right here on earth we have a problem. We lost time and should be in the fifth round with our twin sister Venus, so to speak. We should be advanced. So, in a certain sense we are back there working out third aspect issues when we should really be already into the fifth cosmic kingdom in terms of the planet. We should be correlated with the number five. That is on the planetary level. Now if you look at the big solar systemic level we are half way through our solar systemic evolution, roughly, at least I seem to think so … but I can’t cite the reference.
Gamma: Astronomically it seems to be right. … About five billion years. And I think the Solar System will last ten to eleven billion years.
Alpha: OK. Then if that is the case, if we are really half way through the solar systemic, the question is have we finished the program that recapitulates the Brahma aspect solar systemically. Are we yet into Vishnu in terms of our solar system? … Is the solar system yet into its Vishnu part.
Beta: Well, at the very beginning of Cosmic Fire he says we are a system of active intelligence but latent love-wisdom.
Alpha: OK. And that is my question. … I am saying that five is important because we are still dragging along the five from the earlier solar system and have not yet worked through it. Just like when a man evolves, he spends the greater part of his time fulfilling the Brahma aspect and once completed, he more rapidly goes through Vishnu and Shiva.
Delta: Well … one second, I don’t know if this bears on this, and the whole thing on this solar system and the number five, but on pages 695 and particularly 696 in Cosmic Fire. … the very bottom of 695, the top of the paragraph, it talks about the triangle, the cube and the five pointed star for humanity, then it says at the very bottom: “In this solar system, the above numbers are the most important from the angle of the evolution of consciousness. In the earlier system, the numbers six and seven held the mystery hid. In the next system, it will be two and one. This refers only to the psychical development.” And then he goes on for the rest of this page talking about five in the solar system.
Alpha: OK. Well, from the point of view of the solar system Sirian connection five would be extremely important.
Delta: And who knows how many rounds things have too, because, on 744: “Complication comes to the student nevertheless in the fact that two of the schemes cover their cyclic periods in five rounds, while others have seven; one scheme has but three rounds, but a mystery is hidden here; on the inner round one planet has nine cycles to run before the purpose of its Lord is completed.” Where is DK when we need him?
Alpha: That is good but please remember that the numbers of the first solar system were five, the numbers of the second solar system is seven, and the numbers of the third solar system is nine. And you know, the fivefold word of the first solar system, fivefold, Brahma, sevenfold is Vishnu, and ninefold is Shiva aspect.
Anyway, the the number of our solar system and of the second ray is definitely seven. So, you know what is really interesting? That Christ is prototypical of advancement into the number seven over the number five, just the way, as some sort of higher Christ (and this is in relation to our chain, and so forth), some sort of higher being, might move out of five into seven with respect to our solar system. … There has to be a whole bunch of Christ beings, really in a certain funny sense, Sanat Kumara ... is sort of a higher Christ in a way ... it’s interesting, they are all along the solar line.
So ... OK, look, we are not making great progress here, but we are being a bit thorough.
Alpha: OK. … now let’s move on to the Seven Heavenly Men … without getting into a big controversy about Heavenly Man or Planetary Logoi.
Gamma: I am not sure what we have really pinned down about those three beings.
Alpha: Well ... we didn’t really pin it down, there was a difference of opinion. I said Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva were represented by the three who were expressions of the causal body just like the personality is the expression of the causal body. And then, further, I said that there is an analogy to the triangle around the dot, the point within the triangle, and that it is occurring on all levels at all times, the three always surrounding the one.
Gamma: But do we have an idea about those three, those two which form the personality, two planets, and the three planets which form the second ray? So, we have an idea of the first ray.
Delta: Well you brought up earlier about Uranus, the second ray ... Pisces, Uranus, and so forth. … that is why I also wanted to discuss what these triangles meant and what level they are operating on. There is that correlation. But I am not quite sure what level.
Alpha: OK. Well, every one of them we are given a hint. … Every one of them is a mental, emotional, physical body. So it is possible to play with some sort of configuration, but we will never know for sure. And one thing is for sure, we have twelve major planets right now. Don’t we. How many have we got? ... Ah, we don’t know what the sun and moon veils. We have ten?
Delta: Yeah.
Alpha: OK. But we are not going to have room for all of them ... and some of are going to have to be subsumed under others. …
Gamma: No, but do we have an idea of this (first ray), of which one it could be?
Alpha: Well, this leaves Vulcan, Mercury, Pluto, and Neptune.
Beta: I have a grid if you want to look at it. And it explains the synthesising schemes and the planets that veil the sun, the planets that veil the moon, so it is solar and planetary.
Alpha: But are you coming up with new planets that are veiled by the sun and the moon.
Beta: Uh no, not yet.
Alpha: But they probably do exist. You said if a non sacred second ray planet veiled by the sun. Does he not refer to a non sacred fourth ray planet, which …
Beta: We just discovered that Vesta has a molten core so it could be considered a planet. … Cliff put that on the internet the other day. Vesta, the asteroid, it is not the largest, but one of the four largest and it is the brightest and has evidence of a great amount of magmic activity on the surface, volcanic activity. Because of their measurements they think it has a molten core; the only asteroid that does. And they think that meteorites that just fell on Earth in the last ten years came form Vesta.
Alpha: Um-hmm, so that makes it planetary in category?
Gamma: You know I am listing him in other terms also, the [sounds likeà] congerites are very, very old. So if it comes from a molten core it could not be (inaudible) four or five billion years.
Alpha: Yeah. (We will get up and take a break.) But let’s just move onto the Seven Heavenly Men. Normally, generically and non-specifically are referring to the seven aspects of the seven principles of a Solar Logos. And they are usually considered to be equivalent to Planetary Logoi when used loosely, ...but when used technically there might be different definitions.
Epsilon: Could you rapidly define a principle?
Alpha: Yeah. A principle is a fundamental aspect of consciousness, one of seven fundamental aspects of consciousness manifesting within any system and always in connection with a field through which it manifests specifically. In other words, the principle of Manas is a quality of consciousness which manifests in relation to and through a prakritic field called the manasic vehicle. The principle of Buddhi is a quality of consciousness which manifests in relation to and through a prakritic field called the Buddhic vehicle.
Epsilon: So what difference do you make between the principle and the entity or beings, the incarnation of the field or the rest ...
Alpha: The entity is life itself. And the reason that the life is circumscribed is because its degree of consciousness is prakritically bounded.
Epsilon: So the entity would be the life aspect. And the principle would be the consciousness aspect.?
Alpha: The principle is the consciousness aspect, yes.
Gamma: ... “prakritically” speaking ...
Alpha: Well that is the problem. The whole universe is involved in prakritic boundedness. The Universal Logos is the first of the bounded beings. I have to think about this because, you know, I am defining this in this philosophy book that I am trying to write. …
Beta: Something about this on 1193-1195, in terms of these threefold sets of three: “They are forms of three monadic "vestures," worn by the one Monad....” ... and 1194: “This may seem to be a great complexity, but it is not so much stranger after all than the phenomenon of the Monad (in time and space and during evolution) demonstrating forth as the Triad, the Ego and the Personality. This type of triple Avatar only makes its appearance under a peculiar series of cycles concerned with a group of Monads who were the most progressed and advanced at the opening of the mahamanvantara. As yet, there are not many progressed enough to do this triple work; the Buddha and nine others being the only Ones as yet remaining in touch with our particular planet in this particular manner. A few are as Christ is, and have the power to make a dual appearance. This type of monad is only found on Rays two, four, six.”
Alpha: Ah Ha! Bang. There we go again. This monad is found on rays two, four, and six – right, there are two monads of aspect. That is one reference I didn’t have. Thank you. I am looking for all of the references in which the sevenfold possibility of monadic rays are given.
[VSK: reference the most current thinking on the subject: On the Monad.]